R44 Pop-out floats

[Alex_Ford]

Does anybody have any pictures of a R44 with the emergency pop-out floats (in use!) actually floating on water (or knowledge where I can view one/some) please?

I am looking for pics of the Robinson emergency floats, not 3rd party ones please as the designs seem to differ. A post here or PM would be great.

I am not looking for pics of the the Clipper fixed floats version.

Many thanks

Alex Ford

[Bravo73]

Have you asked Robinson themselves?

Or even Google Images? Because this is what the latter had to say on the subject: ;)


http://www.baltheli.com/images/Infl_test_2S.jpg


PS Just noticed that you wanted a shot of the heli floating on water. Will a float test in the hangar do?

[Alex_Ford]

Done the Google bit - no, not asked Robinson - would probably take ages or get no reply, but don't honestly know, but would have thought that somebody here would have a pic. Seen the one in the hanger - I need a pic of it floating on water as I wrote in my post.

Thanks

Alex Ford

[helicopter-redeye]

My engineers video'ed the inflation of my pop outs being inflated at the last 3 yr maintenance if this is of interest.

Not quite YouTube material but y'know what it's like in the hanger .. :E

h-r;)

[Alex_Ford]

Hello, well not sure if this yours?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYelWkGGG8Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYelWkGGG8Q)

Whats the betting?

Thanks,but as I say I am looking for one all at sea! :-)

One thing though please - where is the inflation switch? On the collective? Do you have to arm them or just pull the trigger/switch?

Alex Ford

[helicopter-redeye]

Nope, wrong colour or my name is helicopter-white eye:E

The inflation system is:-

Pin out of the float bottle to arm system (done on the ground when planning over water flight).

When preparing for ditching, press in the safety catch and move to 'armed' position under the collective (centre mount/ RH pilot only).

When ready to fire, squeeze little red trigger under collective :eek::ok:

All done with LH thumb and middle finger.

h-we;)

[FFF]

Earlier this year I had asked Robinson for some of their pictures, and they were very helpful.
It would be worth sending them a quick email at least.:ok:

[Alex_Ford]

Hello helicopter-redeye,

Ok many thanks for your reply and all understood - would you have (or are you able to take any pictures for me of the operating switch on the collective please?

Also - question 2 please - are your floats standard Robinson ones or another 3rd party make?

And lastly Q3 please - is each float a single float per side (basically the same as the Clipper fixed floats) or are they 2 piece per side as I have seen on some 3rd party float sets?

Many thanks for your kind help and time on this.

Regards

Alex Ford.

[Alex_Ford]

Hello FFF,

Yes - ok thanks I will drop them an email.

Thanks

Alex Ford

[Alex_Ford]

helicopter-redeye,

B.T.W you mentioned a video of yours being tested - am I able to access that video please? I am trying to get an idea of the shape and size of the floats.

Many thanks

Regards

Alex Ford

[helicopter-redeye]

Multiple questions.

I'll ask the engineers for the video (I'd like to see it myself).

There is a photograph of the switch in one of the Robinson publications. If I can locate it it will be scanned. If not I'll take a pic at the end of the week. You could also ask RHC for the picture though as it is in one of their publications (which I can't remember the name of).

They are factory fitted floats not aftermarket (Mk1 with white covers not the cooler new black ones) and as far as I know single part either side.

h-we

[Alex_Ford]

helicopter-redeye

Excellent - Many thanks for your kind help.

Regards

Alex Ford

[VH-XXX]

A 44 pilot told me the 44 won't stay upright on the pop-out floats if landed on them. I didn't think they were for upright purposes, so any footage at sea would be a very expensive filming exercise?

[Alex_Ford]

VH-XXX - well I would have thought then that they are not much use to help keep the aircraft afloat and allow people to get out if that is the case.

I would have thought that they will keep the aircraft upright and afloat for some decent period until/if they loose pressure - but I am only speculating here - but they seem a waste of space if in fact they fail to keep the aircraft upright and floating for some decent period of time. If they don't do that why have them in the first place?

Thanks

Alex Ford

[Bravo73]

They might well just keep the aircraft afloat, but not necessarily the right way up.

It's not ideal but it would be much easier to exit an inverted helicopter at 2m down rather than one which is rapidly descending to the depths.

Keeping a helicopter the right way up in a swell has traditionally always been a tricky problem due to the high CofG.

[Alex_Ford]

Bravo 73,

Yes I agree better floating anyway up than sinking, but as I say I cannot think that they have been designed to keep it afloat upside down rather that the right way up by default (at least initially). I would have hoped the design is for life saving first and then aircraft saving second, but yes I very much appreciate the swell and C of G issues. Thanks for your comments.

Alex Ford

[Hover Bovver]

Dont forget that most popouts are for saving the crew not the aircraft! I would guess that the only film you will find of an r44 in water with popouts deployed will be one that has had to use them, as no one would intentionally pop them and land on water, would they ? The risk would be far to great , as with most popouts they are not the most rugged of items.I guess you can relate them to lifejackets, some will keep your head out of water, but not all will- but they will all float you near the surface.

[Alex_Ford]

Hover Bovver,

Yes I already fully appreciate and understand all of that and appreciate your comments.

As regards "as no one would intentionally pop them and land on water, would they ? "

Well I am sure the manufacturer has at some stage....and that they would probably have taken some pictures for evaluation and publicity reasons.

Alex Ford

[scooter boy]

Alex,
The youtube vid of the floats being popped was of my 44 in the hangar at Gloucester earlier this year.
The reason why nobody (including the manufacturer) would pop the floats and then intentionally land on water is that the engine would most likely be destroyed by water damage (esp if salty water).
I would suggest you contact Robinson directly for further info as I am sure the buoyancy of the system has been tested - they may even have the pictures you are looking for of a 44 floating on them.
The other thing you should be aware of is the high cost of re-charging and testing the system - REDI (another clipper owner) and I discussed this earlier this year - it is a four figure sum and enough to make you lose the urge to pull the trigger unless your life depended on it.

As previously stated the popouts are for passengers and crew safety and not designed for saving the helicopter. The chopper will most likely be scrap after putting down on water. Best to let it sink to the bottom and claim on the insurance rather than attempt salvage (in the opinion of a well respected helo engineer friend).

SB

[Hover Bovver]

I know its not what you are after, but there are/were pictures of an MD product landing on water floats deployed on there website(or there used to be, and cant remember if it was a 600 or 500)

[Alex_Ford]

Hello Scooter Boy,

Thanks for your reply - all understood. Just to clear up any confusion as to why I am asking these questions is that I have no intention of ditching a R44 or inflating the floats - this is research for a software project and I am just trying to get the size and shape (pictures) of the pop out floats when inflated and how they sit in the water, as well as some ref pics of the actuating controls.

I have mailed Robinson but have not yet seen a reply. They may be busy at Oshkosh of course as it was the PR dept I mailed, but in the meantime of anybody can help out with pics I would be most grateful.

Many thanks

Alex Ford

[helicopter-redeye]

Keeping a helicopter the right way up in a swell has traditionally always been a tricky problem due to the high CofG.

I think the CofG on a 44 would be much lower as the engine is slung at the bottom (and would be about 6" above the water) whereas on a 206 or 355 the engines are up top and so the 'ability' to rock over in a mild sea state would be higher.



I'm sure Robinson must have tested this to get FAA certification for the system.

I recall Dick Sandford talking about the low CofG on the Robinson Safety Course and the ability to remain upright in quite a high sea state but I do not recall the source of the data (but I do remember a photo). SB, any better recollection of what he said?

h-we

[Alex_Ford]

B.T.W. Can somebody tell me where the cylinder that holds the nitrogen(?) that is used to inflate the floats is kept on the aircraft please? If in the cabin is it normally in view when flying or under a seat or such like?

Thanks

Alex Ford

[Alex_Ford]

Bravo73,

I just noticed that you wrote:

>PS Just noticed that you wanted a shot of the heli floating on water. Will a float test in the hangar do?

Yes that may be of help - do you have any others apart from the one shown in your previous posting please?

Thanks

Alex Ford

[helicopter-redeye]

Under the left hand front seat (as you can see in the picture).

http://www.helicopter-redeye.com/PD%20R44%20Bottle%20JPEG.jpg

Apologies for the lamentable quality of this 'interim' picture.

Seen from the outside, ze float packs (which we all hope would work if needed)

http://www.helicopter-redeye.com/Ext%20View.jpg

[HeliFly]

Looking forward to the project, Alex. I hope you find what you are looking for here. Floats would be a great addition.

- Will

[chopperdr]

try apical industries, they can probably help, keep in mind they did the original float system for robby and now have their own
dr

[Alex_Ford]

Hello helicopter-redeye,

Thanks for that initial pic. I am presuming the red handle is the actuator for the floats that you grip in a upwards fashion? Is the silver horseshoe shape the safety catch you release to enable the handle to be pulled?

Also assuming that that the red handle is in the 'safe' position in the pic?

Also I assume (2!) that when the left seat is down the bottle is totally out of view?

Many thanks

Alex Ford

[Alex_Ford]

Chopperdr,

Thanks for that tip, I had a look but they only have a single unattached pic on display, but maybe me worth chasing up with a mail.

Alex Ford

[Bravo73]

do you have any others apart from the one shown in your previous posting please?


'Fraid not. Thats all 30 secs of work on Google Images produced!

[helicopter-redeye]

Yes the bottle is under the seat (you can get a small bag on top and next to as well).

The red handle is the trigger.

The silver U shaped part is the safety catch. From the RHS front seat using thumb press the safety bar in and turn round backwards. The system is now armed. Pull the trigger up to fire.

Remember to take the pin out of the bottle before flight (Pin not shown here) but if you cannot see it and its attractive orange streamer then you should be able to see it behind you hanging from the headsets hook to remind you the system is armed.

[Alex_Ford]

Bravo73, Ok no problem - thanks

Alex Ford

[Alex_Ford]

helicopter-redeye,

Thanks for that info. The nice PR lady at Robinson has kindly sent me some good pics of the emergency floats inflated and attached to the skids so what I am looking for now is a small set of decent quality pics of the collective attached part of the system, preferably (or more) 4 views, one each from either side, one from the top and one (as far as possible) from the underside so that I can accurately see how it is set up and placed - if you are able to do that I would be very grateful, but of course understand if you are unable to do that.

I see you are up at Sheffield, I am just north of Oxford - I would come up and see you (if that was OK with you of course!) to take the pics myself but I am on holiday from the end of this Friday so am unable to do so at present, but my fellow colleagues would appreciate the pics so that they can work on it whilst I am away.

Many thanks

Alex Ford

[Bravo73]

The nice PR lady at Robinson has kindly sent me some good pics of the emergency floats inflated and attached to the skids


Can you post them on this thread for the rest of us, please Alex?




Just idle curiosity on my part mind...

[helicopter-redeye]

Here are the pictures

Bottle under LH seat with pin in (safe)

http://www.helicopter-redeye.com/images/FF%20Bottle%20with%20view%20of%20Value%20%26%20Pin.jpg

Lever up with trigger visable RH front seat

http://www.helicopter-redeye.com/images/FF%20Lever%20Right%20Hand%20Side%20and%20Trigger.jpg

Pin in 'flight mode'

http://www.helicopter-redeye.com/images/F%20Pin%20in%20flight%20mode%20position.jpg

Trigger detail seen fron right hand side

http://www.helicopter-redeye.com/images/F%20Tigger%20from%20Right%20hand%20side.jpg

Top view (note safety catch lock on RHSide and loop matching bar RHS

http://www.helicopter-redeye.com/images/F%20View%20from%20above.jpg

Lever up with trigger fron LH side (as it would be in an emergency landing at touchdown just before firing the mechanism)

http://www.helicopter-redeye.com/images/FF%20Bottle%20with%20view%20of%20Lever%20and%20Trigger%20Fro nt%20Left%20Seat.jpg

Lever down from LH seat

http://www.helicopter-redeye.com/images/FF%20Bottle%20with%20view%20of%20Lever,%20Valve%20%26%20Pin. jpg

If you want to view the technology 'in the flesh' this is OK in 2 weeks + as I'm away

h-r

[Alex_Ford]

helicopter-redeye,

Many thanks for those picture - much appreciated.

Alex Ford

[Alex_Ford]

Bravo 73,

Here they are:

http://80.68.88.211/jf/previewpics/r44/floats/floats_stbd_side_view_s.jpg

http://80.68.88.211/jf/previewpics/r44/floats/floats_front_view_s.jpg

http://80.68.88.211/jf/previewpics/r44/floats/floats_rear_view_s.jpg

http://80.68.88.211/jf/previewpics/r44/floats/floats_port_side_view_s.jpg


Thanks

Alex Ford

[Bravo73]

Thanks
I'm sure that you've made DONKEY73 very happy...

[helicopter-redeye]

Man, those floats are so powerful they have blown the whole ship off the skids set!!:D

[Alex_Ford]

Question time again please!

On the picture below what is the yellow text on the black bit shown in the red circle also does the black bit move? As far as I can see the black bit is a rectangle of metal that the U shaped safety pin that stops the handle being pulled, slides in and out of?

http://80.68.88.211/jf/previewpics/r44/floats/float_lever4ss.jpg

Thanks

Alex Ford

[TiPwEiGhT]

Yep, that's correct. It's a locking pin to prevent inadvertently firing the floats. If I am right in thinking it says "LOCKED" and "ARMED".

[Alex_Ford]

Thanks TiPwEiGhT, but what action do you take (pull, rotate or?) to change it from saying 'Locked' to 'Armed'?

Thanks

Alex Ford.

[scooter boy]

The control has "LOCKED" on one side and "READY" on the other.

You push it in and twist it through 90 degrees while pushed in. This removes the final safety catch from the mechanism. To reinsert the safety catch the procedure is similar - i:e push in and rotate 90 degrees the other way. It can easily be done with the left hand but is probably best done prior to an emergency autorotation!

I was very happy to have it set to "READY" over the water when I popped over to Tresco last month.

SB

[helicopter-redeye]

SB has got there first. You can make the move to 'ready' and then fire the trigger while in the descent. If you have the 'ready' shown and catch the trigger then its £900 up the spout (or up the floats!).

Personally I fly pin out, safety on (incl to Tresco). h-r;);)

[Alex_Ford]

SB and H-R,

Many thanks for your answers - much appreciated.

Regards

Alex Ford

[rudestuff]

With quite a few hundred hours over water with pop-outs, I never once touched the safety - it was off and ready to fire at all times. Philosophy? one less thing to remember when you're trying to recover rpm, talk on the radio, judge a flare etc.. Same reasoning as why you don't want a safety catch on a gun - too many people have been killed because they couldn't get the safety off in time. (and a fair few by accidental discharges of course!)

[Helinut]

I was under the impression that floats needed to be tested at least once, as part of their certification. No doubt a test pilot or similar could confirm........?

[helicopter-redeye]

Floats are inflated annually at the CofA using air and every three years using the bottle (which means a discharge and reload)

h-r

[Helinut]

h-r,

sorry my post was confusing. I meant prior to the aviation authoirty giving certification for the floats to be fitted to any hele. So, if Robinson make them, they would have had to have used them once in anger as part of the testing to get initial certification from the Feds.

I do remember seeing a video at the RHC factory of a Clipper doing EOLs to the water. (I think it was fixed floats though).

There are a few pics of the R22 on floats. The freeboard looked pretty minimal to me!

[helicopter-redeye]

so is the R44 Clipper sim I'm seeing in LOOP this week the end output of this? h-r

[Alex_Ford]

Hello Helicopter-Redeye,

Yes it is.

Regards

Alex Ford
Just Flight.

[scooter boy]

Redeye they even chose your colour scheme for the sim!
What an accolade!!

SB

[helicopter-redeye]

To paraphrase what The Hood used to say

"What a simulator - I must one at any cost"

h-r;)

Having said that, it does not appear to float very well (sunk straight into the river at Newark, oh well, cheaper than doing it for real..)

[Martyn Northall]

Please install the update:

http://www.justflight.com/faqs.asp?drdProduct=172&supportProductName=Flying%20Club%20R44#Update339


Should fix your sinking problem :)

[helicopter-redeye]

Its still got that sinking feeling after SP 1 ...

Do SAP have this problem? :E:E