View Full Version : "Climb to....../Descend to...."
Silver Fox
5th May 2000, 13:48
This is probably directed at any of the helpful ATCs out there in SA. I notice the insistence on using the terminology "climb TO or descend TO..." in your airspace. While I have no problem with a descent/climb to a flight level, the same cannot be said for an altitude, eg. "descend TO 8000 feet, QNH..." The dangers of confusing 8000 with 28000 feet are well documented, so I will not elaborate. I also notice that this terminology is not used in Europe, and to the best of my knowledge, anywhere else. Please confirm that you are conforming to ICAO regs, or the local SA regs. Do any other drivers out there have any input?
Thanks in advance, off to the beach...
SF
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CargoRat
8th May 2000, 02:03
You might have better luck if you post this in the ATC forum.
Only help I can give.
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rgds Rat
SF - you took the words right out of my mouth!! By coincidence I've just got back from a JNB and the skipper and I were discussing this exact issue.
Standard ICAO terminology dropped the "to" part of the instruction many years ago, for wellknown safety reasons, but it seems that SA ATCs (or those in the JNB FIR at any rate) have yet to hear about it. As a Jaapie working for a foreign airline it's embarrassing when my (foreign) colleagues ask me why SA is still using this unsafe terminology.
I know some of the JNB ATCOs read this forum - please guys, you're top rate in most other respects, please jack up your act on this one.
The Ant
16th May 2000, 23:09
SA ATCs did in fact drop the 'TO' in clearances to altitudes and flight levels. It has subsequently been changed and it has been re-introduced. This was published officially over a year ago. The correct terminology in South Africa airspace is that you HAVE TO include the 'TO'.
The correct terms are therefore "Cleared to flight level two zero zero" or "Cleared to eight thousand feet". The easiest is to pronounce the 'TO' hard when making the radio call. You will find all local airline traffic doing just that in South african Airspace.
Silver Fox
16th May 2000, 23:43
The Ant, thanks for the info. It seems very strange that SA seems to go against the flow of what is generally considered "safe" overseas. I personally would like to hear the term altitude in there somewhere, i.e. "cleared to altitude 8000 feet" Read the replies to my same post on the "ATC Forum" and read the remarks of having "to" followed by a number - there are enough incidents, I would feel to immediately have it changed back in SA - but then again, they are a law unto themselves.
Off to the beach..............SF
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tired
17th May 2000, 01:31
The Ant - thanks for that. Any idea of the reasons for the change back to using "to"? It does seem rather strange.
V1 Rotate
17th May 2000, 21:45
Siver Fox,
I agree that it is amazing that they use such ambiguous terminology, but it is unique to the Durban FIR. I have never heard it anywhere else. Those of us who fly into Durbs on a regular basis know that the "2" prefix is not part of the numerical clearance and ignor it. It must be a little confusing to newcommers though. I don't think that the Durban airspace is busy enough for it to constitute a danger.
V1 Rotate
Silver Fox
17th May 2000, 23:46
V1 Rotate, thanks for the info. I know for a fact that the same terminology is heard in the JNB FIR, as backed up by "Tired" earlier in the post. I accept that local knowledge gives one the added advantage of awareness, however I beg to differ with you when you state that because of the lack of traffic in the DUR FIR, there is no danger. It only takes ONE accident remember, and there are some pretty big birds flying into that airspace. When one flies around the globe, you soon realise the importance of standardising such vital issues.
Off to the beach..............SF
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The Ant
21st May 2000, 15:57
It is strange that ATNS have gone this route, but you will find all the South African ATNS stations stressing the 'TO', when clearing one to climb or descend. It has been published in SA that it is expected that a pilot's read back include the 'TO' as well! Why this should, who knows! I quite agree that it is a flight safety issue. Though many people are not particularly happy about the service that ATNS deliver, speaking to them personnally, it seems they have a rather old school boss who insists on very in flexible procedures.
V1 Rotate
22nd May 2000, 19:38
ANT,
Thats no lie!
V1 Rotate