3 or 4 bars?

[V1 Rotate]

Recently, in Durban an increasing number of Com license holders have started wearing 4 bars! I held a com license for 3 years and wore 3 bars, as did all the other com pilots at the time. When I attained my ALTP I started wearing 4 bars when flying P1.
Now it seems that at Virginia in particular everyone is wearing 4 bars. Comments?
V1 Rotate

[Wiz]

There's only one surefire way to enforce the dress code... ridicule them.

[BAKELA]

Go Wiz, can't agree more!!!!

[Was that for us?]

Perhaps 1 bar per 1000hrs up to 4000 might be an idea with different coloured/types bars for the grandads with megga hrs.
Just joking!!!!

[compressor stall]

IMHO,

In anything other that large (say >5700kg) Multi Crew environments, then bars are a **** , their use enforced by the insecure and chip-on-shoulder types.

As for the people who wear them in public outside an airport...well..... :rolleyes:

------------------
Those who restrain desire do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained.
William Blake

[MileHi]

Who cares how many bars people wear. If it makes you feel important then double up and wear eight-a-side and clip on three sets of wings. I operated charter for some time and opted not to wear any insignia. I'm sure that by virtue that you are sitting in the cockpit, most people will know you're the pilot. By walking around with bars on your shoulder, most of the public probably think you're a security guard!

As far as I'm concerned, the only important issue on bars is ... what time does it open, and do they have cold beer.

[BAKELA]

And...if I may ad, how many beers they have - cold or warm!!

Bakela

[planecrazi]

I have more cfm engine's attached than my 3 bars, just greatful that 271000 KG's doesn't fit into Virginia. It would a good laugh! Do they pick tons of fuel, or is only in pounds?

[LadyMatilda]

Oh Planecrazi.....

You big man, you! CFM engines, more than three. So much thrust! Kilo's and not pounds.

My how w*t I get....... But you're still a SANDSAK!

[WildFrequency]

I have to agree with LadyMatilda!You guys/girls are pathetic!Woah, three bars, four bars.... I get dressed for work at 3AM, I put my pants on, my shirt on, tie on, wings on and even EPAULETTES on! Why should I arrive at work half dressed?I don't recall, recently at least, someone ripping off a judge in uniform, a policeman in uniform, an airforce pilot in uniform.....!?Will you people get real!What is it with pilots and uniform? Pilots traditionally have a uniform, even the worlds largest airlines have uniforms for pilots! Why can't charter organisations pilot's wear wings and epaulettes?

[Rafiki]

Compressor Stall
Sorry mate - better get used to it if you're heading for Kenya/Tanzania. You might feel like a right plonker coming from Aus but 4 bars will be the norm on your Caravan in that part of the world. Anyway - who cares - it's good for a laugh.

Rafiki

[MileHi]

WildFreq,

Its not the fact that uniforms are bad, its the who-ha about 3 bars with a comm and 4 bars with an ALTP. Who gives a flying F@ck? Wear whatever makes you feel righteous. Personly I think that anyone in Command of an aircraft what ever shape, size, and number of engines or crew is the Captain. If you have to wear bars, then by tradition the Capt wears 4. So, if it gives you an authority rush and personality boost, get into that Piper140 with the 4 bars!

--------------

Drink beer, be happy......

[MileHi]

............

[This message has been edited by MileHi (edited 15 September 2000).]

[Wiz]

Anyone who wears 4 bars is adverising to the public (and their peers) that they have a specific qualification.

Just like exam fraud, insurance fraud, imaginitive CVs or Parker pen hours wearing the wrong epaulettes is dishonest...

I agree parading around off the airport is laughable. And liquor selling bars are preferable anyway...

[goaround7]

Are there any regulations actually laid down anywhere concerning the wearing of (and number of) bars ? If so, do they outline the responsibilities that come with the braid ?

I recently had to get a photograph endorsed for authenticity for a UK photo card driving licence. One of the permitted persons for this is an airline captain who therefore ranks in the eyes of the UK bureaucracy as equal to a solictor, chartered accountant/engineer, MP or MD. I doubt they'd accept an FO or FI from Virginia as suitable....

Also, I have been told that three bars is supposed to be SENIOR FO so was therefore suprised to see newly qualified twenty year old FI's wearing three bars.

Anyone know where an offical line is written down ? I suspect it must all come from naval traditions.

[V1 Rotate]

I must say I agree with Wiz,
It is advertising a qualification. I must say that I would look very closely at the hours claimed on the CV of any rookie who'd been wearing 4 bars.
V1 Rotate

[V1 Rotate]

I think that in the light of the license fraud we should find out what is correct and encourage it through peer pressure before our profession becomes a mokery.
I am currently in the states and the code is rigidly adhered to here.
V1 Rotate

[nugpot]

Hi V1, when are you back? Long time no see.

When I arrived at Ulundi I was issued with 3 bars and that is what I wear.

Everybody on my aircraft know that I am the captain and the only people who I really need to know that I have an ATP licence are the airlines that I have applied to.

I personally call everybody at the 5 airlines with 4 bars "captain". If they are not wearing uniform from the big 5, it's first names, no matter how many bars. I don't particularly care whether they have comms or ATP's.

My pax wouldn't know the difference between a comm and an ATP if it bit them. They just trust me to get them there safely.

------------------
It is much easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission.

[Kiwi Flyer]

Good call Nugpot,

I agree, does it really matter how many stripes, most guys in companies (Charter that is),are told what they HAVE to wear.
I dont think there is any law saying only ATP's can wear 4 bars, and who really cares.
The one thing I find funny though are the student pilots and instructors who rock up on international cross countries in all the stars and bars, sometimes hard to know who the instructor is!!!
Just a bit excessive I reckon.

[The Guvnor]

I remember back in the mid 80s shortly after we started up a cargo operation in Nigeria and I was a lowly wide eyed and bushy tailed effoh I had a visit from a local in the spiffiest uniform I had ever seen - loads of gold braid, medal ribbons, red band in his cap - the lot. As I was alone on the aircraft, and fully convinced that this must be at the very least the Head of Airport Security at MMA, I proceeded to shower him with cokes and plenty of dash in exchange for assurances that he and his boys would "look after the aircraft".

They did.

When we returned the following day for a flight, we found the 707 gleaming as if it had just left Everett.

Matey was, in fact, the airport Fire Chief. :rolleyes: :) :rolleyes: :)

------------------
:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)

[MileHi]

Its saturday night, instead of talking about bars, why are you not hanging out at one?

I've just got in from a flight, thats my excuse..... got to run, beer's getting warm!

[planecrazi]

Earlier on, someone suggested hours-well I was winding the guys up with engines. Really it's up to the individual and for whom he is employed and if it keeps him happy. Every company has it's policy which works fine. Bars certainly help in Africa to get out to your aircraft.
If a pilot wants to wear 4, let him be happy, just keep it safe and professional.

Equal bars on each shoulder-let the take-off's equal the landings.

[The Actuator]

How petty, who gives a flying flat flipping flight director how many bars you wear in you an environment like Virginia? V1 yours is a small operation and if it pisses you off that you didn't wear 4 bars till you had an ATP tough. This is Africa the more bars you wear north of the river the easier life is. Fact. Around Virgina I suspect that the number of bars is inversley proportional to the percieved size of your item. These are not things to get worked up about when people are flying straight wing citations at FL410!!!!!!
If most of the younger generation that I know, had their way a insignia would be gone.
4 bars doesn't make you chuck.

[JJflyer]

I would much rather fly in shorts, T-shirt and tennis shoes. Unfortunatley I am not allowed to do so.
I am not the Captain of the airplane I am flying thus I wear 3 bars. Previously I did wear 4 but that is different as i was a Captain. Oh yes and I didn't have ATPL at the time.

JJ

[Max Torque]

Once I flew a KingAir. I had 3 bars, the skipper had 4. (Mandatory two-crew ops). Now I fly a KingAir and a 1900. I have 4 bars. I don't have an ATPL - regs don't require it. Skipper now flys fluffys for airline. He has 2 bars. I think he is actually entitled to 3, but he hasn't been down to the uniform depot recently. He is still my old skipper though. Why 4,3 and 2? Because its company policy. What does it mean? Nada. Is it nice? You bet it is in Lagos.
Never ever heard of a CPL equating to 3 bars and an ATPL to 4. Would an astronaut get 5 under this system? Must dig out my old pix of Crippen and Young.
Under impressed. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

Y'all have a nice day.

[Bogtrotter]

Personally the first thing I do as soon as I'm off duty is get rid of the bars or anything else that makes me look like a security guard, immigration officer etc,etc. In the aircraft though wear what it takes to keep the punters happy. If you're anywhere north of the border wear as much gold as you can get on your shirt, jacket, hat or anywhere else for that matter. At the end of the day it's not the number of bars you're wearing that qualifies you. Normally those with hang-ups about this kind of thing are a little insecure themselves.

[Bogtrotter]

Personally the first thing I do as soon as I'm off duty is get rid of the bars or anything else that makes me look like a security guard, immigration officer etc,etc. In the aircraft though wear what it takes to keep the punters happy. If you're anywhere north of the border wear as much gold as you can get on your shirt, jacket, hat or anywhere else for that matter. At the end of the day it's not the number of bars you're wearing that qualifies you. Normally those with hang-ups about this kind of thing are a little insecure themselves.

[Warlock2000]

Max Torque..... well put.

One question, how do you fly command on a B1900 without a ATPL? As far as I can remeber to fly P1 on anything larger than a "light" a ATPL is required. Unless you fly as a co-pilot, but then you should have 3 bars, or does your company only dish out 4 bar insignia? (Ok thats 2 questions, I know)

Curious.

[This message has been edited by Warlock2000 (edited 24 September 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Warlock2000 (edited 24 September 2000).]

[ehwatezedoing]

Actually, those 4 strips save my father bot in mid 70's.

Even as "ground ops manager" (not a pilot) for Air Afrique/UTA in Chad, he has to wear them...

Anyway, here come the story:
Phone call around 2 am.....must go to the airport.
He get stop on his way by 2 local drunken "soldiers". After some "palabre", they started raising guns on him before realise he was wearing 4 bananas on each shoulder.

Ooops!! http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

They let him go, thinking he was a French Légion military commander :)

[Rat Catcher]

I think MileHi had the right idea..if you are the Captain, where what the company requires..3 or 4. A flight instructor with a student is the P1 by default..4 bars..what's all the hype??
Have to show up for work dressed appropriately anyway...though shorts/T-shirt could get support!!
Later..
Keep the smiley side up

[Max Torque]

Warlock2000:
Danish regs allow you to fly 1900 with CPL only, commercial ops. I think they take the less than 20 pax and / or 14500kgs approach. This would be different under JAR's, which I think require an ATPL, but really not sure, and like everything else to do with JAR's, don't really want to know, unless I have to.
:mad
Our Captains all get 4 bars, co-pilots 3, company policy. Use to be 2 for first year fo's, but wasn't really practical in many of our operations (Lagos effect), so discontinued.
Before everybody else jumps in with the wisdom of CPL-only P1's on 1900, none of us ever had much less than the min. requirement for ATPL licence issue before getting the 1900 rating. I was supposed to get mine when I did my flight test, but it turned out that nobody in the company had got round to getting approval for ATPL training on 1900. It would have been voided by the JAR anyway, which defines the 1900 as a single-pilot aircraft, which is a load of nonsense anyway. Nobody in their right mind should ever try to operate a 1900 as anything else than a two-crew ship.

Hope this clears up your questions.
:)

Max Torque.

[Warlock2000]

Thanks, it does.....

Warlock.

[FuelFlow]

V1 Rotate, get a F*****G life. Who cares how many Bars you put on your shoulders. We all know that you are a Captain, and if you didnt have any on your shoulders, you would certainly make sure all in the vicinity knew who the Captain was. I think that if you are so worried about Rank, you should possibly have FIVE bars, because we all know that you are the best at FAVG. Maybe even SIX would do the trick, as you do own your jet, dont you???

[The Unteleported Man]

Steady on there FuelFlow. Your remarks are out of context for this thread.

[The Actuator]

Beauts, Fuel Flow you go boy!!!These boxes would wear their stripes to 330 if they could and then expect the bouncer to buy them drinks!

[V1 Rotate]

Fuel Flow,
It's a pity you have to get so personal in this column. I seem to have trodden on a raw nerve!
V1 Rotate

[Warlock2000]

Is this cr@p STILL going on? Geezzzzz !
Who cares how many bars you wear....
Be happy......
Fly fast.....

[inlet corrosion]

I hope this gets to the point. No-one cares how many bars are on your shoulders. At the end of the day its the cash in the hand that counts.We are all in it for the better job and the money !! Bottom line !!

[Banoi]

Personally, I wear what the company requires me to wear. For the first 9 years of my aviation career I wore none, then 2 and a half for a while, then 3, and eventually 4. Now I am back to 3. What differnce does it make? Not a lot. They are the first things I remove at the end of a working day before I enter the only type of bar that counts. I must agree with FF, get a life!

[Sleepless_Knight]

Hey JJ, you should come and fly freighters :)

[the wizard of auz]

As a mustering pilot I dont have to wear any bars (the stock dont give a hoot) and my charter customers dont seem to mind that I dont wear any either, I havn't noticed that the way I fly changes without them, so bugger it who needs em. (Although the young girlies at the areo club seem to like em). :)