MCC and Type rating question

[smith]

If you self fund a type rating do you still have to hold an MCC prior to it. Is CRM and MCC incorporated in the type rating and thus exempting you from the MCC. Just asking as some posts suggest applying to the airlines without an MCC as they will incororate it it the type/line training. If this is the case could save you a couple of grand if you really want to SSTR.

[wbryce]

As far as I know you need an MCC, some SSTR providers incoperate the TR+MCC course (I think Sabena do this)....

[Callsign Kilo]

You must have an MCC if you are applying to an airline, however if you are doing an SSTR, some TRTO can integrate this as part of your training. An MCC is vital as any sim assessor will be judging your use of CRM. A low houred candidate without an MCC would show up like a sore thumb in a multi-crew simulator.

[MrHorgy]

When I spoke last to Bond (earlier this week) they can combine MCC and TR into one, that way you only need a day's groundschool and a day in the sim for MCC - saves a bit of cash!

Horgy

[chosetitov]

Hey,

Just wanted to give some feedback on the MCC I have just finished (13/7/2007) at EUROPEAN AIR CHARTER in Bournemouth, UK. Very interesting course and I do have to say that I was imazed how much one learns during the course. Ours was 8 days, on Full Motion L1011 and were able to use simulator (without motion) in our free time till late night and have as much practice and of course bit of fun. They will be also starting MCC on Full motion B737/200 i think in few weeks time. Price was quite "good" compare to the other training facilities at Bournemouth. (GBP 2400,-) ...
Anyway guys, just wanted to give a small report in case somebody is looking for where to go...

All the best to all of you!

[MrHorgy]

Free? What about an instructor? Or is one not required to use the sim?

Horgy

[moggiee]

When I spoke last to Bond (earlier this week) they can combine MCC and TR into one, that way you only need a day's groundschool and a day in the sim for MCC - saves a bit of cash!
Horgy
Interesting. Last time I checked, there was a requirement for an additional 10 hours of MCC specific sim time to be added to the TR to combine the two. 10 hours in one day - I bet that doesn't happen!

[BillieBob]

moggiee - I think you have misunderstood the requirement. If the MCC is combined with the type rating, as the JAA would prefer, the requirement for MCC practical training is reduced to 10 hours. However, nowhere does it suggest that this time is in addition to the type rating hours and no TRTO that I am aware of puts an extra 10 hours on for MCC training. There is certainly a need for some extra training on a combined MCC course but, in my experience, that is seldom more than one sim sortie (4hrs) the remaining 6 hours is an integral part of type rating training. It would seem from MrHorgy's post that this is exactly what Bond are doing.

However, there is still a requirement for 25 hours of theoretical knowledge instruction and exercises and it would be interesting to know how Bond can fit that into 'a day's groundschool'!

[moggiee]

Billie Bob, that's accepted - however, how on earth could 10 hours of MCC training realisically be incorporated into a type rating without adding more than 4 hours to the length? If a non-MCC type rating takes, for example, 40 hours and that is required to cover the type rating, where does the 10 hours of MCC training fit into 44 hours?

An MCC is a non-technical course, quite the opposite of a type rating - JAR FCL makes a point of stating this, saying that it is intended to develop NON-TECHNICAL skill. It is just not possible to do the MCC bit in 4 hours without something getting cut elsewhere - either the tech side suffers (which I doubt) or a token effort is made at the MCC (much more likely). To do a whole MCC in 4 hours is, in my opinion, just paying lip service to the requirements.

However, I agree wholeheartedly about the 25 hours of groundschool. Even if you leave out the discussion of SOPs, stanbdard calls etc which would reasonably form part of thr TR, the MCC theory is still about 2 1/2 days worth. Still, the CAA lets them get away with it - just as they let BMA (as was then) get away with not doing proper 737-400 TRs at the time of the Kegworth crash. The fact that something is approved by the CAA and meets minimum standards (possibly!) doesn't mean that it's actually appropriate or effective.

[ZFT]

BillieBob,

The ATR (manufacturers) type rating course with MCC is an extra weeks duration with an additional 2 simulator sessions.

[moggiee]

That's more like it.

[BillieBob]

moggie - I'm not trying to defend it, just state the facts. However, judging by the feedback I get from line training, there is no discernable difference between pilots who have completed modular MCC courses and those who have completed combined MCC/type-rating courses (with only one extra sim sortie) - go figure!

[lookoutbelow]

Just to clarify the additional training to combine MCC to TR training on either the B737, B757, A320 at Bond Aviation is 3 Days MCC Ground School as per any other MCC course (no credit given) and 4 Hrs extra SIM training per pilot, plus briefings and de-briefings. Approved by the UK CAA (JAR) under the TRTO approval.

Also, the TR is not purely technical. Each detail whilst covering some specific technical and handling aspects also covers no-tech (non technical) items and skilss, specifically SOP use, use of normal and non normal checklists, CRM and MCC etc. That is why so much of the MCC training can be covered in the TR SIM.

[diamond1]

I would reccomend European Aviation Air Charter they are cheaper than others around for the same course and very experienced on the tri star:)