View Full Version : TRC's Special Hearing in Camera on Helderberg Flight - Cape Town, 1 June 1998
Here's one for you Guv! The full transcript of the TRC hearing:
http://www.transport.gov.za/docs/misc/trc_a.html
Day one only for now. The rest they should post soon.
Where can one find a transcript of the CVR. Having read all 500 odd pages, there are more questions than answers.
I suggest you ask Mike Mabasa
[email protected] at the ministry. Please tell us what happens.
The complete TRC transcript (no CVR): http://www.gov.za/reports/2000/helderberg.htm
[This message has been edited by Wiz (edited 23 August 2000).]
Here is the TRC Investigation Conclusions. Please note that the Helderberg began her fateful flight on 27 November 1987 and terminated just after midnite 28 November 1987 all times UTC ATD 1423 ATA... 0009. ATA based on CTC with PLS at 2349 at TOD. Throughout TRC transcript and also in their conculsions, time seems to be very important and it is,but somehow the times are never questioned.
Sorry for previous slip but it is important that the dates and times are considered when the TRC transcript is studied.
http://www.polity.org.za/govdocs/commissions/1998/trc/2chap6b.htm
[This message has been edited by gema (edited 12 September 2000).]
http://aviation-safety.net/cvr/cvr_sa295.htm
Found this transcript. If this is the CVR it is difficult to understand the contention of the TRC forensic expert that there is no tie up between the Helderberg's CVR and that of FIMP ATC's tape.
Mmmmm, looks a bit like the ATC tape from Mauritius but the last bit can only be CVR. Curious. What do the site administrators say Gema?
I should have posted this on Rumors and News instead: http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/008083.html
The Guvnor
30th Aug 2000, 05:49
I hear through various sources that the US government has put the kibosh on this one "reveal any of the information about the cargo and it's off with the aid for you, boys". Will Thabo have the guts to follow through and embarass the previous government and his good US buddies - not according to certain `considerations`he won`t!!!!!
Interestingly, the TRC transcript describes precisely what I said in the Skeletons in the Closet thread....!
[This message has been edited by The Guvnor (edited 30 August 2000).]
Was that for us?
30th Aug 2000, 09:56
I recon that the best way to solve this lot is for the TRC to call THE GUVNOR as a witness he certainly seems to have a handle on everything that took place before. during and after the awful event.
Yep I noticed that too Guv. Seems to me that the CVR (if as transcribed) will blow this theory right out of the water though.
The Guvnor
31st Aug 2000, 08:52
Actually, I have personally heard three different versions of the CVR. The first one was the SAA/Boeing one (ie the 'official' one) - which was very indistinct. The second version was one that was cleaned up by the NIS labs (yeah, well, so that's a guarantee of absolute probity then!! :) :) ) which led to more questions than answers - and which was the one that played at the TRC hearing; and finally I have been provided with excerpts of the latest US enhanced tape - which in turn was put in for verification through some people I know at GCHQ, Cheltenham who are probably the world's leading experts in deciphering these things.
The British and Americans provided detailed transcripts to the SA government - and as we all saw, they were pooh-poohed. Given that they painted the previous government in the worst possible light - the question is why is the ANC covering up for the Nats?
The answer could be something that has been the subject of much speculation for some time in South Africa - just how many senior ANC officials were, in fact, 'doubles' for the Nats?
Then, extrapolating things still further, could this mean that a senior ANC official - then or now - knew exactly what was on board the aircraft: and either (a) was perpared to let the previous government go ahead and nuje Luanda; or (b) somehow sabotaged the aircraft and therefore prevented the guidance systems from reaching South Africa?
Either way, regardless of the fact that South Africa was literally a nation at war in 1987, the mass murder of people on such a scale may be too much for even the ANC to stomach - and if they knew and/or were involved in any manner with any potential or proposed nuclear strike on a 'friendly' nation, the fallout - if you excuse the pun - on the ANC would be unthinkable.
Frankly, I can think of no other viable reason for the continuing mystery and threats to those with knowledge and/or involvement in the affair. The worst excesses of the previous government - through such individuals as Dr Basson and the CCB are understood and have been put behind us.
But not this.
Why?
Certainly, the Americans do not want their involvement known and/or documented. Nor do the Israelis - indeed, the supply of the systems to the South Africans caused a pretty serious rift in relations between the US and Israeli military that was only patched up at the time of Desert Storm - some three years later. The Taiwanese were also hyper-sensitive about the use of TPE as a transit point - especially as the PRC was making rumblings that the US/Israel/RSA was providing the Taiwanese with nuclear capability. In fact, a deal had been put in place in 1988 that the RSA would sell to Taiwan several medium range missiles jointly developed by Israel and the RSA - a deal subsequently vetoed by FW de Klerk personally.
Again, given the close links between the ANC and the PRC, how come this has not been more widely disclosed?
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
CargoRat2
31st Aug 2000, 15:08
I can't figure out why a guidance system (which I suppose is just an expensive circuit-board) should bring an aircraft down. Rocket fuel I could understand.
Yours confused,
Rat
The Guvnor
31st Aug 2000, 20:00
CargoRat - you're absolutely right. There was never any evidence or even suggestion at all that the guidance systems brought down the aircraft. What it did mean was that SAA didn't want the aircraft to divert to any intermediate airport when the fire originally broke out as they were concerned that they would be discovered - much to the embarassment of all concerned. Those aspects are dealt with in the Skeletons in the Closet threads and also in the TRC transcripts.
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
Terrible that it might have been less embarassing to kill more than 100 people than own up. I guess if you're planning to nuke someone then PC is important...
http://smilecwm.tripod.com/cwm/killtard.gif
[This message has been edited by Wiz (edited 01 September 2000).]
WildFrequency
1st Sep 2000, 23:38
The SA goverment, both old and new is more stuffed up than ever before, if everything in this thread is to be believed. The Guv. has bought some really scary info to light. I wonder where this "Helderberg" resurgence of interest will end up? Hopefully not at the bottom of the sea again.
The Guvnor
2nd Sep 2000, 03:06
And whilst we're at it, how about the South African links with PA103 ... for a couple of Castles, anyone know what they are?
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
This in from the M&G: http://www.mg.co.za/za/features/2000sep/05sep-helderberg.html
The first fire theory. Lets explore the possibility of the first fire theory.
The TRC transcript of the first couple of hours as described by the forensic expert is very interesting. My take would be as follows. All times UTC as this is the official time used for flight operations.
If the flt had direct clearance from position ELATO (A1)- ISBAN (R214) then the following is feasible:
JEPP FE 4/3 (H/L) used as reference
CRP= compulsory reporting point
480 TAS used for purpose of exercise.
Routing TIA-A1-ELATO-DCT-ISBAN-R214-SUKAR-R203-
TIA-ELATO 281/480*60 = 35 min CRP RCTP/VHHH FIR
ELATO-ISBAN 266/460*60 = 33 min CRP
ISBAN-BAOSH 135/480*60 = 17 min CRP
BAOSH-DUNAR 197/480*60 = 25 min CRP VHHH/VVTS FIR
DUNAR-SUKAR 113/480*60 = 14 min CRP VHHH AOR/VVTS ACC
This then establishes where the acft would be about 2 hrs into the flight.
SUKAR-KIBAG 115/480*60 = 14 min CRP
KIBAG-AROGU 106/480*60 = 13 min CRP
This then is the position of the flight 2:31
Helderberg ATD 1423UTC (TRC transcript) ELATO 1458 ISBAN BAOSH 1548 DUNAR 1613 SUKAR 1627 KIBAG 1641 AROGU 1654
A CVR transcript that has a position report at any one of the above positions would confirm the CVR burnt out due to the first fire and would also confirm that dinner a described in the TRC transcript is being served. Note the close proximity of the CRPs along the airways R214 and R203. The length of a dinner service depends on the class being served. The cockpit crew would have been served out of the Upper Deck galley and could have been served any time after level flight had been achieved.
Take DUNAR as the 2-hr point-
DUNAR to Hong Kong 530 nm
DUNAR to MANILA 420 nm
DUNAR to Bangkok 550 nm
DUNAR to Singapore 680 nm
All via airways.
DUNAR to Mumbai (Bombay) 2256 nm GC
DUNAR to Diego Garcia 2677 GC
DUNAR to Mauritius 3808 nm GC
SAA had already diverted into BKK with an engine problem before 1987. HKG was/is a normal destination for SAA. Manila, there is Clark Airforce Base (the CIA/US theory). According to the TRC transcript, SAA would be embarrassed by inspection of the cargo in a hostile airport should the flt have diverted.
Yet no embarrassment should the Mauritius authorities inspect this aircraft which is showing fire damage. At this point, 2 hrs out of TPE, according to the TRC transcript, the fire now under control and the crew of SA295 receive instructions to proceed on to MRU and not to divert. Unless the passengers and crew on landing at MRU, are all going to be bought off, nobody is ever going to talk about how they survived an onboard fire. So much for the foreign airport theory.
This is now an aircraft without any further fire fighting equipment left. There was a large dry chemical fire extinguisher in the main deck cargo hold along with various smaller H20/Dry chemical bottles located throughout the passenger cabin. One must assume that all of the fire fighting equipment has been used up and there are no reserves. This crew faces another 8 hours in a smoke filled aircraft with no more O2 (according to the TRC transcript).
Whatever you want to think, I do not believe that faced with the above, Captain Uys and his crew would have continued on to MRU had a fire broken out about 2 hrs after take off from TPE.
2) The CIA/US theory is also a figment of…. Examine it. Clark Airforce Base at Manila and Diego Garcia, two en route airports controlled by the US do not even feature in the CIA/US theory. If the CIA/US were involved what better way than to get the aircraft into an airport where the pax can be looked after by the best medical aid possible and at the same time get rid of the offending cargo. This option is not used because it did not exist. For the record SAA also diverted into Diego Garcia with a B707 with engine troubles. The SAA B707 fleet was replaced early in the seventies. In those days the route to HKG was via SEY with the B707.
3) The dinner theory needs a bit more clarification. Crews eat at all hours. However, there was a practice in SAA at that time of serving a snack to pax and crew prior to landing at an intermediate stopover. MRU being the intermediate stopover, this is what is being served as this was normally served shortly before TOD depending on the pax load and when the cockpit crew wanted theirs. This snack for the cockpit crew was supplemented with the fruit basket and the cheese tray from the previous dinner service.
This was a tragedy for all concerned. Let there be no doubt that everyone would like the truth about the cause of this accident to be revealed. Some fundamental corrections for the TRC forensic expert.
TPE UTC plus 8 therefore 1423 UTC = 2223LT
JNB UTC plus 2 therefore 1423 UTC = 1623LT
The Guvnor
12th Sep 2000, 18:19
Gema - a couple of fundamental errors there. Firstly, you can bet that the US involvement in this was highly restricted and also highly illegal, bearing in mind that sanctions had been imposed against SA by the US. The US nationals involved were therefore acting in the same manner as Ollie North, and exposure of the shipment by USAF personnel investigating the cause of the fire would have been catastrophic for them; therefore to say that the aircraft could have diverted to Clark or Diego Garcia is flawed.
Of course, after the event the Americans were informed of what happened by the Israelis, and they moved rapidly to recover their property.
My information is that the crew wanted to divert to Singapore, but this was refused.
Secondly, Mauritius came within the South African 'sphere of influence', and could be controlled.
I do not believe that there would have been any cover-up of the fire - and no suggestion that there would have been has ever been made, as suggested by you. It would have been impossible to conceal!
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
GUV,
No I am not initiating any suggestion, however please read previous posts on this thread and other threads as well as the TRC transcript.
My point is that this alleged first fire could be proven on the original CVR should there be a recorded position report at any CRP along the route within the first 2h30 as stated by the TRC forensic expert's statements.
On any of the CVR transcripts, if there is but one position call recorded along R214/R203 from TPE to PUT which is the route of the flight, then the actual time of the alleged first fire is confirmed. After PUT the flt would have been totally oceanic and in those days A327 did not exist and position reports would have been every 10 deg of Lon, in which case there would be fewer position reports.
[This message has been edited by gema (edited 12 September 2000).]
The Guvnor
13th Sep 2000, 06:37
Gema - The whole thing is as you are well aware, completely outside normal operating practices. That there was a recurrence/rekindling of fire has been confirmed by numerous sources - including Boeing (the primary reason that they introduced new rules about combi aircraft and their fire extinguishing systems); SAA's accident investigation experts as a result of the reconstruction of the wreckage; a personal associate who heard the missing Springbok Radio tape - including the request to divert to Singapore; and of course the TRC transcripts. There is no benefit to anyone to suggest this, as it confirms that the aircraft was being improperly controlled for various reasons.
As to the cause of the fire, I understand now that further recent investigation has indeed shown that wire bundle arcing involving Kapton wiring is probably to blame. This also explains why the CVR is incomplete - as the affected wiring, in the cargo compartment, included the wiring carrying data to both the CVR and FDR.
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
News 24:
http://www.news24.co.za/News24/South_Africa/Gauteng/0,1113,2-7-829_911866,00.html
The Guvnor
16th Sep 2000, 04:34
And here's that enhanced CVR transcript:
This is a complete transcript of the previously inaudible dialogue on
board the Helderberg, as deciphered by an American specialist.
Note: Words between brackets indicate words whose clarity is not
completely distinguishable. In some instances reasonable and possible
alternative interpretations are listed in the following format: [1st
interpretation/2nd interpretation].
0:00 - 0:56: No additional dialogue detected until 0:56.
0:56: Have a drink.
0:59: Tastes so good. Just like Coke.
1:04: Hope they didn't contract this.
1:07: Hope to give us heartburn.
No additional dialogue until 1:59.
1:59: Allen maak dit 'n bietjie warmder hiervoor asseblief!
(Allen, please turn up the heat up here in front!)
(Right, Captain.)
No additional dialogue detected until 8:22.
8:22: Here's the problem.
(Okay). What's (that)?
8:27: Boy George is aboard.
Holy cow.
8:32: (It's/here's) a little secret (I) thought (that) you fellows would
want to know.
8:35: What did you say?
8:39: A bomb is (aboard/onboard).
8:41: Way in the back?
8:42: It could be lit.
8:44: That could be (our/a) problem.
8:48: Real big problem . . . Yeah, big problem . . . Very difficult
problem . . . No kidding.
(No kidding is very faint and difficult to hear.)
8:56: Who the hell else knows (this) besides you?
Nobody.
(Nobody is very faint and difficult to hear.)
9:03: What?
Nobody . . . Nobody.
9:08: Who could have done the allocating?
9:11: On top of list, operations would . . . Those (unintelligible) will
(foul up/follow).
9:17: Allen, this is especially very, very difficult.
9:22: Yes it is, it's terrible.
9:26: This is really terrifying, what could happen . . . No **** .
9:29: What do you say?
(9:30): Holy smoke, that's illegal.
9:39: What do you do?
9:42: Dumb.
(Additional dialogue between 9:42 and 9:50 could not be recovered.)
9:50: We should point to the (jerk).
9:52: Montel Steward (might/may) have.
9:55: Who had plenty to say (about) this?
9:56: (Mickey)
(This is difficult to hear - however, there are two clear waveform rises
indicating two syllables.)
10:02: He always makes (me) fly ('em) . . .
They made that common for you?
10:08: Oh, holy . . .
10:09: How'd it get to this?
I don't know.
10:13: Tell Kevin Walker.
Do you think that would help?
10:17: (It might)(I don't know)
(This is extremely faint.)
10:24: (Who owns it?)
This is government owned.
10:27: It would have to have been.
10:30: What should we do about it?
10:37: (Yeah, probably.)
10:40: We're dead.
10:42: Kaptein iets te drinke?
(Captain something to drink?)
No thanks, no thanks.
10:54: What a day.
11:06: If they do pressure us again, don't (comply).
11:19: Call the (chief).
11:22: (All right).
(You're crazy), you're crazy you know, to have done this.
11:30: (David), maybe I owe you one.
All right.
11:35: What foolishness.
You're right.
11:41: We fly in (their/the/a) nuclear bomb.
11:44: What can you do?
11:46: Report to work.
11:52: Exactly . . .
(You) got me.
12:00: (Refuse).
12:02: Can't do (it).
12:06: What's their (gain/game)?
12:17: Look for the person who's gained.
12:24: Looking for it could kill.
Holy smoke.
12:28: Oh, likely (it's) strung out.
12:31: I (just) can't believe what we're doing.
(12:34): Nothing we can say or do.
12:37: Who could move the paperwork?
(12:39): They could hide it.
12:41: A forgery.
(12:44): A forged entry.
12:46: It's probably just a simple thing to replace the (log field) with
(down time).
(Probably).
12:52: Probably.
12:56: You are right as day.
12:59: They would want to keep it quiet.
13:02: Gotta be.
(13:03): People are sick.
13:05: Must by crazy.
13:06: He's right.
13:24: Is that really significant to the whole point (though/Joe)?
13:28: Meaning, these guys feel up to their fraudulent way.
13:33: Agreed.
(It's) very sick.
13:36: I'm convinced the point is they're convinced that they're right.
13:42: All right, who could do it?
13:49: It's not real clear.
(13:53): It's not supposed to be.
13:58: I admit, I believe it's dumb.
14:09: Could we be injured?
(14:12): Yes.
14:14: Who do you suspect it is?
(14:16): (Government).
(14:17): Yes.
14:20: You can bet your (right knee) when we de-board they'll be around.
14:25: What can we do?
Nothing.
14:29: Really, you could get hurt just looking at it.
Slapped in your face.
14:35: The real truth of it will be detected and will tell our people
that they can't trust their own government.
14:44: This won't work.
(14:46): I hope we live.
14:50: Yes . . . Maybe somebody's on the take . . . Especially with (Ray)
gone.
14:58: Well, it's probably tangled up, when you'd be lookin' at this . .
. They look . . . (at us).
15:05: I'll say this, this is a problem. It's a real problem.
15:20: When they write the minutes of this meeting, and the details of
our little secret here . . .
15:25: Thank you for a splendid Molotov cocktail . . . That could kill.
Right . . . You bet . . . Believe it.
15:36: Hmm.. Um-hm . . . That is right . . . We're dead.
(No additional dialogue detected until 26:21.)
26:21: (What's/****) this.
(26:24): The right (wing area/ rear area).
26:25: Thought I saw some smoke . . . (Where?)
26:30: That actually could (not be/ happen).
(26:32): On the (outside/ right side)?
26:33: Don't know. I'm worried, though.
26:35: (Look at the heading.) 26- (30/bearing)-6-7.
26:39: (30/40) minutes yet to go.
(26:41): Hopefully.
26:43: Long way.
26:44: (Bring/ring] up Mauritius . . . Ja, (zero)-2-3.
26:48: (1-2-3)
(Sounds like numbers, but is not distinct.)
26:51: (Réunion/some name) may be closer.
26:53: I have no choice.
26:57: (Unintelligible).
(No additional dialogue until 29:14.)
29:14: Fire alarm bell.
29:18: Intercom chime.
29:19: What's going on now?
29:21: What?
29:23: Cargo.
29:25: This came on now afterwards.
29:29: (What/where) is that?
29:31: Look at the light.
29:32: Okay.
29:35: Right rear quadrant.
29:41: And the alarm came on as well as (these two/this too).
29:45: Should I push the button over there?
29:46: Ja . . . Ja.
29:48: This (one's/was) a different problem.
29:51: This light flared up as well.
29:53: Huh?
29:55: Is the general (fire) light on?
29:56: Ja.
30:17: Fok dis die feit dat altwee aangekom het . . . dit steur mens.
(****, the fact is both came on ... it's terrifying.)
30:20: Intercom chime.
30:22: Ah **** .
30:23: 800 Hz-tone.
(End of recording.)
Additional enhancement of 8:27 to 8:39:
Boy George is aboard . . . Holy cow . . . (It's/here's) a little secret
(I) thought (that) you fellows would want to know . . . What did you
say?. . . A bomb is (on board).
Additional enhancement of 11:41:
We fly in (their/the/a) nuclear bomb.
prior consent.
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
The Guvnor
16th Sep 2000, 05:03
9:56: (Mickey)
(This is difficult to hear - however, there are two clear waveform rises
indicating two syllables.)
Any bets on the name being, oh ... Mickey Mitchell? :) :)
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
The Guvnor
16th Sep 2000, 06:10
To me, this transcript is pretty strong confirmation that there had already been a fire. Let's look at the following:
8:22: Here's the problem.
(Okay). What's (that)?
8:27: Boy George is aboard.
Holy cow.
8:32: (It's/here's) a little secret (I) thought (that) you fellows would
want to know.
8:35: What did you say?
8:39: A bomb is (aboard/onboard).
8:41: Way in the back?
8:42: It could be lit.
8:44: That could be (our/a) problem.
Now, if he's saying "It could be it (rather than lit)...That could be our problem" then this cleary indicates that there has already been a problem.
10:40: We're dead
is obviously a realisation that they are not going to be allowed to divert - therefore the request has already been submitted to Springbok Radio.
10:54: What a day.
11:06: If they do pressure us again, don't (comply).
11:19: Call the (chief).
"What a day" obviously alludes to something stressful - possibly a serious event such as a fire - having occurred. "if they do pressure us again, don't (comply)" - is this a reference to pressure to continue that had been put on the crew by SAA Ops in JNB?
14:44: This won't work.
(14:46): I hope we live
They clearly know that they are in very serious trouble. Again, if nothing had happened prior to this discussion, it is unlikely that the conversation would have been this dramatic.
15:05: I'll say this, this is a problem. It's a real problem.
15:20: When they write the minutes of this meeting, and the details of
our little secret here . . .
This is a clear reference to the CVR - and again a clear indicator that they know that they are doomed.
15:36: Hmm.. Um-hm . . . That is right . . . We're dead.
And again.
26:21: (What's/****) this.
(26:24): The right (wing area/ rear area).
26:25: Thought I saw some smoke . . . (Where?)
26:30: That actually could (not be/ happen).
(26:32): On the (outside/ right side)?
26:33: Don't know. I'm worried, though.
Here's where they get the first indication that the fire has broken out again.
29:14: Fire alarm bell.
29:18: Intercom chime.
29:19: What's going on now?
29:21: What?
29:23: Cargo.
29:25: This came on now afterwards.
29:29: (What/where) is that?
29:31: Look at the light.
29:32: Okay.
29:35: Right rear quadrant.
29:41: And the alarm came on as well as (these two/this too).
Here it appears that they are also picking up zone fire/smoke detection alarms as well as a general fire alarm; indicating that the fire and/or smoke is more widespread than previously. Note that the autopsies of passengers sitting in Y class showed that most of them had died from smoke inhalation rather than impact or drowning.
29:48: This (one's/was) a different problem.
Here again we have clear reference to an earlier problem.
29:51: This light flared up as well.
29:53: Huh?
29:55: Is the general (fire) light on?
29:56: Ja.
30:17: Fok dis die feit dat altwee aangekom het . . . dit steur mens.
(****, the fact is both came on ... it's terrifying.)
30:20: Intercom chime.
30:22: Ah **** .
They now know that they have a serious fire in the main cabin as well as in the aft cargo section.
Recent re-evaluations have pretty much concluded that the cause of the fire was due to electrical arcing, caused by faulty Kapton wiring.
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
Thanks for that Guv.
In the TRC hearing they state that the CVR makes reference to a pretty woman? What gives?
The Guvnor
16th Sep 2000, 16:06
Knowing the TRC - and some of those on it - I'd say they mean the reference to "Boy George" :) :) :)
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
Klatzow: That cockpit voice recorder was recovered from the depths of the ocean and was transcribed at great expense, and an official version of the CVR, which is almost 30 minutes long, exists and was available to the Margo Inquiry at the time. It records a conversation in the cockpit along the normal lines of what men will normally talk about during period of long inactivity and often substantial boredom, and it comes as no surprise to learn that the first 20 odd minutes of the tape were involved in discussing inter alia women. Nothing surprising and nothing at all particularly upsetting to anybody, even close family members, who might have chosen to listen to that tape. There was no embarrassing component, there was no obscene component, there was idle chit-chat about an attractive woman, and what is more important, there was the discussion on the cockpit voice recorder which is in the official version of a dinner being served in the cockpit.
I'm not sure what planet this fellow is from but surely someone would have taken him to task for saying this if there was no basis to it? Or did someone remove these comments from the enhanced CVR? Odd huh?
The Guvnor
18th Sep 2000, 02:49
Definitely suspicious - and again indicative of the ongoing cover up. Note that it its just waved away as "Nothing surprising and nothing at all particularly upsetting to anybody, even close family members, who might have chosen to listen to that tape. There was no embarrassing component, there was no obscene component, there was idle chit-chat about an attractive woman, and what is more important, there was the discussion on the cockpit voice recorder which is in the official version of a dinner being served in the cockpit."
Now, how many of you have had any discussion on the flight deck - especially with Afrikaaners - about women that do not involve grossly obscene comments, which would be highly upsetting to close family members (especially as most crew discussions involving attractive women seem to revolve around (a) how many times one has had them sexually; (b) in what positions; (c) where; and (d) how many tims in the course of one night - usually rather a lot of TRC defined elastic 'truth' seems to be involved in these debates! :) :) )
To just wave away 20 minutes of a CVR tape as being 'unimportant' in such an investigation is grossly inept to say the least; and both highly suspicious and deeply significant at worst.
Unless of course the good Advocate Klatzow regards Boy George as "an attractive woman"! I think we should be told....
PS - no one want to take me up on the SA involvement in PA103 challenge?? There's beer at stake here, okes!!
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
[This message has been edited by The Guvnor (edited 17 September 2000).]
Guv,
You're right! Seems highly unlikely that a converstion like the one described could take place...
Klatzow describes himself as a 'forsenic scientist' and as a Doctor. It's clear he's not a pilot...
Beer is a strong incentive but I'm out of my depth here! Will you give us a hint?
The Guvnor
18th Sep 2000, 16:42
Well, it involves Pik...
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
Hmmmm, Pik was booked to travel on PA 103 but climbed onto PA 101 instead? Denied vehemently that it was anything more than coincidence...
An American intelligence official was on board...
Suspicion centered upon Palestinians and the Syrians until -- hey presto -- the Gulf War and Libya is suddenly the bad guy...
Now who in the world would have had a bone to pick with Pik in 88? And who organized the removal of the two Libyans from Libya for trial... Let me see now... (How am I doing??? This is thirsty work!!!)
[typo]
[This message has been edited by Wiz (edited 18 September 2000).]
The Guvnor
18th Sep 2000, 19:59
Close, Wiz :) :) :) ... and all you need now is details of the investigation into ANC involvement in the planting of the bomb and you're 'A' for away...
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
True story:
A couple of years ago a guy hitched a ride back from Mozambique. I got chatting to him and asked him what he's doing. Several frosties later he tells me he's going to testify to the TRC on Wednesday. He's a bit cagey about it but I point out that it's going to be common knowlege soon so he tells me he was one of the guys who bombed the ANC offices in London.
He points out that he can't apply for amnesty since the crime was committed in the UK. Nevertheless he's heard that some of the others involved are going to testify so he thinks it's a good idea he says his bit.
That Tuesday I pick up the paper and read how he was changing the tyre on a heavy truck in front of a wall in Pretoria when the brakes failed... A 'freak accident' the report says..
The Guvnor
18th Sep 2000, 20:49
Strange these 'freak accidents' always seem to happen to people who are about to make embarassing disclosures....
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
WildFrequency
18th Sep 2000, 22:38
Yip and I flew Mr Peter Castelane from FQBR to **** in December 1996.(think the surname is correct)Told me the same things as Wiz has commented on, on the flight back.
The Guvnor
19th Sep 2000, 00:58
Jan Castelain was the NIS station chief in London, based at the SA Embassy there, until he was declared PNG following a certain incident involving Irishmen in Paris. For the usual beers, anyone want to take a punt on what happened? :) :) :)
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
Wildfrequency means Peter Casselton. RIP. Rather a charming fellow. Oddly his name comes up with Bernt Carlsson -- a pax on PA 103.
The Guvnor
19th Sep 2000, 16:16
Do tell more, Wiz?? :) :) :)
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
Sink your teeth into this one Guv... http://www.contrast.org/truth/html/olof_palme.html
Peter also insinuated that there was a lot he wasn't going to tell the TRC. I'm glad he didn't tell me (or WF) 'cos then we'd probably already have been struck by a metorite in some freak accident...
And this for desert...
Truth dies at spy's grave. (http://web.sn.apc.org/wmail/issues/970214/NEWS68.html) (February 14, 1997)
Palme's murder still a mystery. (http://web.sn.apc.org/wmail/issues/961004/NEWS39.html) (October 04, 1996)
Apartheid's paella connection. (http://www.sn.apc.org/wmail/issues/000211/NEWS17.html) (February 11, 2000)
I think if WF checks his logbook we'll find his date is slightly out...
[Actually my dates are slightly out. However since NIA are reportly interested in this thread I'll not correct them 25/9]
[This message has been edited by Wiz (edited 26 September 2000).]
The Guvnor
19th Sep 2000, 21:32
Wiz - Thanks for those links - I knew most of the story but there were a few things in there that clarified it somewhat!
No other takers for the PA103 and Paris stories??? :) :) :)
And here's another one ... Operation PASLOAD
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
NP Guv :). The site has an obvious pro-ANC slant but the information is pretty well researched and any imaginative leaps are documented as such... Remove the slant and it's good info eh?
This in from News24:
H'berg disaster 'no accident' (http://www.news24.co.za/News24/South_Africa/Gauteng/0,1113,2-7-829_915324,00.html)
The Guvnor
22nd Sep 2000, 18:02
Remember - you read it first on PPRuNe!!
:) :) :)
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
The Guvnor
25th Sep 2000, 01:01
http://www.mg.co.za/mg/zapiro/2000/aug/aug07.gif
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
Military Intelligence is the original oxymoron. NIA distils the concept into a purer form.
PASLOAD: Closely associated with Wonder Air. They ran weapons, personnel and other contraband in the late '80s.
The operation also enriched some high ranking Apartheid military types (no names no pack drill).
Thirsty!
BTW Andre White was one of the pilots / operatives. ;) ;) :)
While we're on conspiracy theories this one (http://www.mg.co.za/mg/za/archive/2000oct/06octam-news.html#cia) you've got to see!
I wonder if this is Ol' Trev's and the Scotsman's fairy Godmother? Maybe MENSA will be interested in him... ;) ;) ;)
[Here's the alternate article (http://www.mg.co.za/mg/za/archive/2000oct/features/06oct-thabo.html)]
[This message has been edited by Wiz (edited 08 October 2000).]
The Guvnor
7th Oct 2000, 15:53
Close, Wiz ... now, who (a) bought and paid for the assets of Pasload; and (b) operates them? (Clue ... same people that employed Andre up until the time of his crash in Lokki when he was following direct orders from the company's MD... despite being well out of hours!!)
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
Well, Magnus certainly tried to cover it up...
The Guvnor
9th Oct 2000, 10:38
Here's a clue... think of a house on the hill at FALA which also doubles as offices...
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
Why the big aggro between you and the Garbage? Too much competition in the catching suckers department?
Sid Viscous
10th Oct 2000, 11:05
Hey Who?, or Freeboot or Freenum or whatever your stupid name is, how about giving it a rest? :rolleyes:
Go on guv, tell more...
So, the digging continues (thanks to another contributor who helped out here!)
Here are some titbits:
Sluitelsport flying (sp?)
Foxtrot Aviation
Fraton foods
Ostriches???
The Durkom (sp?) Group
No causal connect yet...
The Guvnor
12th Oct 2000, 11:49
OK Wiz, tell us more??
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
All business interests of ex PASLOAD employees except one...
The remaining relates to Magnus...
All information is significant unless proven otherwise!
Helderburg decision expected soon (http://www.news24.co.za/News24/South_Africa/0,1113,2-7_926641,00.html) News24 16 October.
...Observers believe that the inquiry is most likely to be re-opened. Speculation over the years has been that the Helderberg crash was no accident and that a massive cover-up followed the disaster.
[This message has been edited by Wiz (edited 16 October 2000).]
H'berg: FBI confirms bomb (http://www.news24.co.za/News24/South_Africa/0,1113,2-7_931925,00.html) News24 26 October
Today's Citizen contains report suggesting a resurgence of interest in the Palestinian connection to 103. The report says 'A computerised search of the 90 volumes of the German "Autumn Leaves" investigation revealed another name not previously linked to the Lockerbie probe and a new connection with the PFLP-GC.'
Seems to me that the name 'Bernt Carlsson' warrants further investigation of the South African theory...
The Guvnor
1st Nov 2000, 22:26
Indeed so Wiz ... and anyone like to hazard a guess as to the identity of the ANC's premier explosives expert - late of the USA???
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:) Happiness is a warm L1011 :)
Does his car look like this?
http://www.bmwinfo.com/5303.jpg
This from Flysouth (http://www.flysouth.co.za) <font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) chief executive officer Trevor Abrahams has said a report on whether there should be another inquiry into the Helderberg plane crash would be submitted to Transport Minister Dullah Omar next month.
Addressing members of the Pretoria Press Club, Abrahams said the report would be produced by consensus between the CAA and the Directorate of Public Prosecutions.
However, Abrahams was doubtful that there was enough evidence for a full inquiry into the plane crash, which claimed 159 lives.
The South African Airways plane crashed off the coast of Mauritius in 1987, killing all on board.
An initial commission of inquiry into the disaster found that no-one was to blame, but in 1998 the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was told that Armscor's apartheid-era arms procurement was to blame.
Expert witness David Klatzow contended that rocket fuel carried illegally by the Helderberg for Armscor spontaneously ignited, causing the aircraft to crash into the sea in November 1987.</font>
The Guvnor
23rd Apr 2001, 19:31
You mean Trevor Abrahams, man of truth, honour and probity? Chap that's never been suspected of dodgy dealings? Of course I'd trust him to stand up for transparency and justice - this is not the sort of chap that would ever be involved in any sort of a cover-up!
And to suggest otherwise would, of course, arouse the wrath of Thabo and the boys. :) :rolleyes: :)
Certainly gladdens my heart to see such a posting from a man of such high moral calibre as you Guvnor! Not that you'd be involved in any dodgy dealings yourself http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">Omar upsets Helderberg kin (http://www.news24.co.za/News24/South_Africa/0,1113,2-7_1017996,00.html)
Philip de Bruin
Johannesburg - Family members of people who died during the 1987 Helderberg aircraft disaster believe the Minister of Transport, Dullah Omar, will not re-open the investigation.
This follows approaches by senior officials of Civil Aviation - under instruction from minister Omar – to inform them that Omar wants to have a private discussion with them before he makes his announcement on the re-opening of the investigation.
One of the family members contacted in this way, Craig Seales from Cape Town, said as far as he and other family members were concerned, they would be satisfied with "nothing less than a new, official investigation", and the latest move by Omar was "as transparent as glass".
"Mr Omar knows only too well what our point of view is.
"A mass of new information has come to light that indicates that the Helderberg tragedy was no ordinary incident. We want the investigation re-opened.
"Now he wants to talk to us privately before making his announcement, and that means one thing - he is not going to re-open the investigation and wants to soft-soap us before the news is announced in the media."
'No ulterior motives for meeting'
Omar's spokesperson Mike Babaso denied that Omar had ulterior motives for his planned meeting with the families.
"This is a very sensitive matter and Mr Omar would like to communicate personally with the family and not through the media."
Asked if that indicated that a decision had been taken not to re-open the investigation - in spite of the fact that the official investigation had still not been completed - Mabaso said it would be "speculation" to guess what Omar wanted to say to the families.
In another development, Mark Whale of the Scorpions, who is assisting Advocate John Welch with the inquiry which will advise Omar on the re-opening of the investigation, said a report was being prepared and would soon be presented to Omar.
'There is still investigative work to do'
"No, our work is not done. In the report it will be mentioned that there is still investigative work to do. It depends however on the Minister whether he is going to order us to stop or to continue."
Whale also confirmed that no statement had yet been taken from Jana Uys, wife of the Helderberg pilot Captain Dawie Uys.
Although the American FBI confirmed the deciphering of the Helderberg's flight recorder by an American forensic expert, Jack Mitchell, the flight recorder was then given to the SABC to decipher.
A spokesperson from the SABC's studios confirmed on Tuesday that the equipment used for that purpose was already ten years old. The equipment used by the FBI and Mitchell uses the most modern technology of its kind in the world. - Beeld
</font>
One good reason is to divert interest away from the PA103 thing. Another ... well who says either the old regime or the new is totally in the dark here.
The Guvnor
3rd May 2001, 11:26
... and we certainly don't want any nosy people investigating MK's links with PA103, do we, boys? :) :) :)
Helderberg families call for SAA boycott (http://www.iol.co.za/general/newsview.php?click_id=181&art_id=qw989073663608B243&set_id=1)
"...the committee would demand all documents pertaining to the crash and would subpoena Transport Minister Dullah Omar either on Monday or Tuesday. "
"The group are also trying to enlist the support of the Swiss, German and Taiwanese governments "
"CAA chief executive Trevor Abrahams should also not be involved in any aspect of the investigation because "there are lingering questions of dishonesty ..."
The Guvnor
22nd Jun 2001, 15:43
The families of some of the victims of the Helderberg are trying to get a judicial review into the case. Check out their website (which for some reason doesn't seem to work with Netscape) and if you have any information, I'm sure they'd be grateful to receive it.
http://www.helderberg-accident.com
The Guvnor
2nd Aug 2001, 13:41
This is from today's Beeld - very interesting indeed, as it seems to fully corroborate what I said earlier in this thread about the original fire breaking out more or less abeam Singapore.
Helderberg evidence forged?
Philip de Bruin
Johannesburg - A document with crucial information about the final hours of the Helderberg, which crashed into the sea in 1987 off the Mauritius coast killing everyone on board, could have been forged or deliberately changed. This has emerged from documentation released by Civil Aviation Authority Director Trevor Abrahams.
"If the alleged forgery can be proven, then all information submitted to the Margo Commission at the time regarding conversations between the Helderberg and Mauritian ground air control stations is under suspicion," said Mark Whale of the Scorpions after he was presented with the document.
Whale is conducting a probe into the disaster on instruction from the National Prosecution Authority.
The document involved maps and the time and frequency of Helderberg Captain Dawie Uys's contact with air control ahead of the crash.
Prior to the Margo Commission, evidence suggested that contact was made with a ground station at 23:13 and again at 23:48 with the control tower at the airport in Mauritius, when Uys informed them that he was initiating an emergency landing.
However, the new document, released by Abrahams about two months ago, reveals that there was never a contact conversation at 23:13. Abrahams's document did, however, state that there had been contact with Mauritius at 23:32.
Aviation experts point out, and Whale confirms, that the flight recorder of an aircraft runs for thirty minutes before automatically recording from the start again if nothing is said in the preceding 30 minutes.
A person or persons could, therefore, deliberately register the contact time as 23:13, creating a false impression to the Margo Commission that more than thirty minutes had lapsed between the 23:13 contact period and the last contact at 23:48.
The commission would, therefore, get the impression that the 23:32 contact had never taken place.
Uys's report to Mauritius at 23:32 could have been of such interest that a person or persons deemed it necessary to withhold the information from the Margo Commission.
Whale added: "If the contact times had been interfered with intentionally, it renders under suspicion all other versions of conversations submitted to the Margo Commission that Captain Uys made on the night."
Abrahams failed to respond to several Beeld enquiries seeking clarity over the contact times.
However, he did say to Neels van Wyk, who is conducting an independent inquiry into the Helderberg in the US, that the 23:32 contact time on his document had been secured from an unscrambled tape used in the control tower at Mauritius on the night of the crash.
He added that he believed the unscrambled tape of the last conversations captured on the Helderberg flight recorder (as submitted to the Margo Commission) had not been made in the last 30 minutes of the flight.
Abrahams's document and his statement regarding the flight recorder is important as it gives impetus to the theory that the fire had started much earlier (than the Margo Commission found) and that Uys had flown to Mauritius under threats and coercion from Johannesburg, even though he could have safely landed elsewhere.
[ 03 August 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]
The Guvnor
3rd Aug 2001, 18:08
Nog Helderberg-nuus, van Beeld:
Margo hoor dalk g'n slotdeel van vlugopnemer, sê Abrahams
Philip de Bruin
Die ontwarring van die laaste half uur van die vlugopnemer van die Helderberg wat in 1988 as getuienis by die Margo-kommissie ingedien is, is moontlik glad nie 'n weergawe van die laaste 30 minute van die vlugopnemer nie.
Dié opsienbarende stelling, wat nog meer vraagtekens plaas oor die korrektheid van getuienis voor die Margo-kommissie in verband met die Helderbergramp in 1987, is vandeesweek gemaak deur mnr. Trevor Abrahams, uitvoerende hoof van die burgerlugvaartowerheid.
Abrahams het die stelling gemaak in 'n gesprek met mnr. Neels van Wyk, 'n Suid-Afrikaner wat tans in die VSA woon en hom die laaste ses jaar intensief besig hou met 'n ondersoek na die ware oorsaak van die ramp aan die kus van Mauritius.
Van Wyk het met Abrahams gepraat na aanleiding van 'n dokument wat Abrahams sowat twee maande gelede by die Pretoriase Persklub aan die media gegee het.
Beeld het Donderdag berig dat tye waarop die Helderberg se vlie'nier, kapt. Dawie Uys, kort voor die ramp met grondstasies kontak gemaak het, in die Abrahams-dokument verskil van die tye wat aan die Margo-kommissie verstrek is.
Abrahams het aan Van Wyk verduidelik dat die kontaktye in sy dokument verkry is van 'n ontwarring van die band in die vlugbeheerkamer op Mauritius. Dié ontwarring is om een of ander onverklaarbare rede nooit aan die Margo-kommissie voorgelê nie.
Hy het toe volgens Van Wyk gesê: "I believe the CVR (van die Helderberg) is not that of the last 30 minutes of flight."
Hy het nie op dié stelling uitgebrei nie.
Beeld het gister probeer om self met Abrahams oor dié stelling te praat. Sy sekretaresse het egter gesê hy is " 'n baie besige man" en het Beeld na die skakelafdeling verwys.
Toe sy meegedeel is dat dit oor 'n telefoongesprek van Abrahams in verband met die Helderberg gaan, het sy gesê sy sal die boodskap aan hom oordra. Teen druktyd het hy nog nie gereageer nie.
Oudregter Willem Heath het Donderdag gesê hy is deur 'n groep naasbestaandes van mense wat in die ramp gesterf het, genader. "Ek sal binne die volgende weke waarskynlik met 'n afvaardiging van dié groep onderhandel.
"Daarna sal ek besluit of ek betrokke sal raak by die ondersoek met die oog op die heropening van die ondersoek na die Helderberg," sê hy. In hierdie stadium kan en wil hy hom nie oor 'n moontlike toesmeerdery uitlaat nie.
Naasbestaandes van die 47 Japannese slagoffers van die Helderberg gaan nou ook hul gewig agter hul Suid-Afrikaanse vriende ingooi om die regering te dwing om, in die lig van al hoe meer nuwe getuienis, die ondersoek na die Helderberg te heropen.
Mnr. Yasuhiro Ogawa, tweede sekretaris in die ambassade van Japan, het onderneem om die Japannese naasbestaandes op te spoor nadat hy met 'n afvaardiging van die Suid-Afrikaanse naasbestaandes onderhandel het.
[email protected]
Well, it's good to know that progress is being made and that Heavyweights like Heath are getting behind this. It is nonetheless totally irresponsible of that idiot Abrahams to be making statements like "I believe the CVR (of the Helderberg) is not that of the last 30 minutes of flight." Whether he is right or wrong, this kind of opinion is what kept us all in the dark in the first place. :mad:
The Guvnor
4th Aug 2001, 18:53
My only concern with this is that there are a heck of a lot of people with vested interests out there who want to keep the whole thing quiet - preferrably under 2km of Indian Ocean.
Interestingly, that also appears to include the present government - who one would have thought would have been shouting the odds from the rooftop about the 'racist apartheid Nats' bringing the world to the brink of nuclear war ... but they aren't.
They blame everything else on the Nats - including their own failed economic policies - so why not this?
"Curiouser and Curiouser" said Alice...