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View Full Version : Quickest from brakes off to 1000' agl?


Il Duce
13th Jul 2007, 12:45
Trivia time. An old aircrew colleague told me that, during the 1970's, the fastest aircraft in RAF service from brakes off at the end of the runway to 1000' agl was the............................. well, you tell me. I was surprised by his "data" and I suppose that beyond the 1000' mark another type would overtake the one he told me about. I'll be interested in how many pruners agree with him.

talk_shy_tall_knight
13th Jul 2007, 12:49
A Wessex???

13th Jul 2007, 12:52
talk shy - that one always used to wind the jet mates up - get to 1000' in a Wessex and then take the brakes off:)

Gainesy
13th Jul 2007, 12:52
I heard it was a Chinook (v. Phantom) in the Falklands.

Don't tell 'em how its done Pike.:E

talk_shy_tall_knight
13th Jul 2007, 12:54
Chinook to 1000' = seconds few. However, not in the 70's.

mystic_meg
13th Jul 2007, 13:00
Normally the female of the species, on seeing you wipe your kn*b on the bedroom curtains after a session :E

Il Duce
13th Jul 2007, 13:06
Perhaps I should have specified "fixed wing"!.............. and I'll re-emphasise "1970s".

talk_shy_tall_knight
13th Jul 2007, 13:08
Ah....perhaps

diginagain
13th Jul 2007, 13:10
Glider (Kirkby Cadet or Sedburgh) on a winch launch?

peppermint_jam
13th Jul 2007, 13:11
My thought would be lightning, but that wouldn't surprise you i guess, so JP as a wild card.

4PON4PIN
13th Jul 2007, 13:33
Come on guys/gals, it was the Andover and many a beer was won from lightning boys in Gutersloh.:)

Out Of Trim
13th Jul 2007, 13:35
Glider (Kirby Cadet or Sedburgh) on a winch launch?


I second that answer - Quite a ride!

TorqueOfTheDevil
13th Jul 2007, 13:49
Bloodhound? You didn't specify manned aircraft...

TheInquisitor
13th Jul 2007, 13:51
VC10 on full power take-off. No contest.

Art Field
13th Jul 2007, 13:58
Reckon the Victor2 could beat the FunBus, same engines, lighter weight.
Just beat you to it Dan, likewise. I know which one I preferred though.

Dan Winterland
13th Jul 2007, 14:01
The Victor K2 would beat the VC10 most days. Same engines but much lighter! (I've flown both BTW).







Edit: Great minds think alike! :D

4PON4PIN
13th Jul 2007, 14:09
Hey JENKINS... let's put these folk right. Always thought Brian M was best at STOL.

Fly380
13th Jul 2007, 14:15
Twin Pioneer in a good headwind.

6Z3
13th Jul 2007, 14:30
Seemed to remember the Folland Gnat used to get me way past 3000' before I could find the millibar knob (no surprises that I was chopped at IRT).

Peppermint Jam: JP's a real wildcard. I certainly remember the JP (Mk3 anyway) needing most of the whole runway to get airborne, let alone climb to 1000'.

newt
13th Jul 2007, 14:31
As I recall the F104 was quicker off the mark than the Lightning but the Lightning overtook the F104 and was first to 30000 feet.
No doubt Beagle will know the answer!!!!!!!!!!

Seldomfitforpurpose
13th Jul 2007, 14:57
"No doubt Beagle will know the answer!!!!!!!!!!"

Not sure if the German Care Home he currently resides in has access to the internet :E

Safety_Helmut
13th Jul 2007, 14:58
but the Lightning overtook the F104 and was first to 300000 feet

Awesome ! :ok:

BEagle
13th Jul 2007, 15:29
Mein guess vould be ze Hunter 'GT6'.

Vent like schtink!!

green granite
13th Jul 2007, 15:44
Kestrel/Harrier?

threeputt
13th Jul 2007, 15:52
It must have been either Joe L'Estrange or Jon Tye in the mighty 301 engined, low fuel load Avro Dragmaster B2 during the display season.

Joe, he of the theory that "it climbs faster than it turns". 4 ship scramble, at Waddo, me stood on the ladder with Martin W*****s in the LHS, Joe who was in "finger1" and leading the show had the unerving habit of rotating at about 80 kts or so and then wa****g on loads of left or right hand down whilst climbing away. :ok: Looked good from the crowds perspective though.

3P

Razor61
13th Jul 2007, 16:50
F104 and was first to 300000 feet.

That's quite some feat! :}

Buccaneer from a Cat Launch?

IcePaq
13th Jul 2007, 17:23
I'll go out on a limb with something different.

L-19 (0-1E)bird dog since it is airborne in only a few feet and can climb at a very steep angle.

Of course a twin otter or casa stol plane might be the one the thread starter has in mind.

The Helpful Stacker
13th Jul 2007, 17:35
I still reckon it could be a winch launch glider of some description.

4PON4PIN
13th Jul 2007, 17:54
QTE: An old aircrew colleague told me that, during the 1970's, the fastest aircraft in RAF service from brakes off at the end of the runway to 1000' agl was the............................. well, you tell me.UNQTE

RTFQ?

Surely the game is to fill in the dots and guess what Il Duce was TOLD, not what was or wasn't the fastest. I don't recall the F104, the winch glider or Bird Dog being in RAF service in the 70's.

Mind you, we may well see the last 2 being introduced in years to come the way things are going!! :)

newt
13th Jul 2007, 18:03
If only we had the Space Shuttle!!

MechGov
13th Jul 2007, 18:37
It couldn't be the mighty Hercules could it?

maxburner
13th Jul 2007, 18:41
1970s, fixed wing, ruling out cat launches, it's got to be a clean F4.

BeefyBoy
13th Jul 2007, 19:00
Just like MechGov I remember my old boss on 1312flt at Port Stanley saying that the Herk had a faster climb rate to 1000 ft than a Lightning.

Clockwork Mouse
13th Jul 2007, 19:36
Canberra? Seem to remember it going away like the proverbial off a shovel.

sled dog
13th Jul 2007, 19:41
In my experience, certainly NOT a Javelin.....:p

The Helpful Stacker
13th Jul 2007, 19:47
Surely the game is to fill in the dots and guess what Il Duce was TOLD, not what was or wasn't the fastest. I don't recall the F104, the winch glider or Bird Dog being in RAF service in the 70's.


Errr, winch gliders are owned by the RAF for use by the ATC and have been for many a year now (£13-15 million a year of the RAF budget goes on ATC flying I believe).

The Slingsby T. 31B Tandem Tutor (or as known in the RAF, Kirby Cadet T.X. Mk. 3) was operated for many years wearing RAF roundels and serial numbers.

toddbabe
13th Jul 2007, 20:30
A harrier easily!

sarsteph
13th Jul 2007, 20:38
I'll go for the Canberra, like Clockwork Mouse. Seem to remember someone on 39Sqn mentioning something about this.

Beeayeate
13th Jul 2007, 22:13
Got to be the Canberra, not just any Canberra, but the mighty PR.9. Same donks as a Frightning but could rotate further back along the runway.

:cool:

sycamore
13th Jul 2007, 22:46
An HS-125-400, light fuel,seen 1500` off end of Wyton on a Friday TGIF- No pax ,of course !:ok:

Razor61
13th Jul 2007, 23:17
Just came back on to say the Canberra, but i noticed i'm not the only one, but...i'll still stick with the Canberra.

TheInquisitor
13th Jul 2007, 23:25
Dunno, y'know....an empty Albert Mk1, with not much fuel, using the obstacle clearance Tac T/O technique, would get there PDQ. Mk5 probably a damn sight quicker - but they weren't around in the 70s...

Charlie Luncher
13th Jul 2007, 23:57
Mighty Hunter @ Kef with the usual headwind, airborne and climbing before the end of the piano keys, the commissary would have needed to be light on ration supplies though:ok:
Charlie sends:ok:

EyesFront
14th Jul 2007, 00:22
I remember being very impressed by an advert for the F15, pointing out that the F15 was faster from brakes off to 70,000' than a Saturn V moonshot

The Saturn V had the edge after this...

FFP
14th Jul 2007, 01:01
Normally the female of the species, on seeing you wipe your kn*b on the bedroom curtains after a session

Known as a Zuffle (taken from Viz Profanisaurus)

Chilli Monster
14th Jul 2007, 02:05
Another vote for the winch-launched Glider. Put side by side with a conventional, powered aircraft requiring a runway it will have reached 1000ft probably by the time the powered aircraft rotates.

Il Duce
14th Jul 2007, 06:16
My God, what have I started!!!?! Some of the above are ruled out because they weren't in RAF service. The winch launched gliders aren't allowed I'm afraid - I'm sorry I should've said "under its own power". 4PON4PIN is the only one to agree with what I was told, yes, that well known STOL aircraft, the Andover. I doubted it myself at first but apparently the figures around at the time showed that the Andover was quickest out of the blocks and up to 1000' agl. Beyond that, all manner of other types would whizz on past upwards. Anyone got any clues as to where one can dig out the figures to either confirm or deny this claim?

diginagain
14th Jul 2007, 06:37
I'm rather disappointed that you should leave it so late to clarify the parameters, Il Duce. Still, it made for an interesting debate, thanks.

Andover, eh? My money would still be on the T21.:ok:

TorqueOfTheDevil
14th Jul 2007, 07:29
Bloodhound! Bloodhound!

diginagain
14th Jul 2007, 07:40
OK, Bloodhound is good too, but a bit of a one-way trip, don't you think?

yeoman
14th Jul 2007, 08:23
Sorry to butt in but could you give this a go?
Any RAF aircraft, current or past that could get airborne off Manchester Rwy 23 and get to FL 410 by overhead Birmingham airport? The parameters are: A full pay / bomb load, 1/4 fuel and fixed wing. Gliders (the 410 bit should screw this anyway, ditto helicopters!) and missiles are excluded. The flight path is ahead to 5 miles then direct which should rule out those planning via Land's End (assuming the fuel didn't give out)!
As an exercise, any military aircraft, F16 etc but with the same parameters?
There is at least one civi aircraft that can!:}

FL575
14th Jul 2007, 08:38
PR9, 12000lbs fuel. Gutersloh. 10kts down the runway, 8C, 101.5% power (not the usual 90% adjusted) brakes off, 2000ft abeam the tower.

ALock
14th Jul 2007, 11:51
That's strange - I'm sure I've seen one taxing back to 25 at Laarbruch. Mind you it was after a heavy night!!

4PON4PIN
14th Jul 2007, 12:27
Il Duce
Pse check your pm's.

4PON4PIN family motto: Gloating in Victory, Bitter in Defeat :)

Ex Douglas Driver
14th Jul 2007, 12:58
The RNZAF Andover drivers used to drag out the "we're fastest to 1000ft" line at airshows as well. Great pick-up line, lads!!! Nothing like desperation coming across the PA....

Jack Aubrey
14th Jul 2007, 13:59
Might it be the Varsity?

diginagain
14th Jul 2007, 14:02
Might it be the Varsity?

Might have been mentioned at Post #47:ok:

Kidderminster Kid
14th Jul 2007, 14:22
I seem to remember that in a Mk 2 Shacklebomber, with little fuel, using the water meth (for the full 5 minutes), we were pretty quick to 1500ft. I must admit though that after initial period of shake rattle an' roll everything that followed was verrrrrry slow :sad:

ABX
14th Jul 2007, 14:42
yeoman,

I reckon a light weight U2 could do it.

Watch this and tell me I'm wrong (http://youtube.com/watch?v=LOl73NoNpBk&mode=related&search=)!

L J R
14th Jul 2007, 15:11
I seem to recall a runway in New Guinea that has a 1000' drop right at the end, therefore the Caribou a few seconds after rotate probably holds the honour. Can't remember which town/village though.

621andy
14th Jul 2007, 15:35
Oh dear, arrived too late! My money would've been on the Barge or the Mark 3.

Always thought it'd make an interesting airshow act -

1947 vintage barge and a Phantom on the starting blocks, drop the flag and the first to 1000' wins:}

Frelon
14th Jul 2007, 15:53
I agree, can't beat a Mk 111. I was involved with the making of a COI promotional film for the Air Cadets many moons ago and a Whirlwind helicopter was commandeered to be used as a camera platform to do the filming. After some initial briefing the helicopter pilot decided that the best way to film the launch of the Mk 111 was to take off at the same time as the glider and film the winch launch. Anyway when I reached 1000ft and looked down I could see a very noisy heli trying to catch up with me! After some debriefing after that flight the helicopter pilot suggested for the next flight he wait at the top of the launch!! The cameraman also said that I should not look at the helicopter, it might spoil the shot! Anyway I got to the top of the launch, the helicopter approached and flew alongside me, very noisily. I think I did look at the helicopter a couple of times - sorry Mr Cameraman. Nevertheless I still hold the memory of the helicopter trying to catch me up on the launch. I think the helicopter pilot learnt something that day.
The associated music was a Beatles song, I seem to remember. Would be good to see the film again if anybody knows where to look.
Oh bugger! He mentioned "brakes"! No brakes on Mk111's:confused:

Hipper
14th Jul 2007, 16:03
The IWM have some COI films here:

http://collections.iwm.org.uk/server/show/nav.00g004

Use the 'Search the Film and Video Database....' near the top of the page, centre.

Not Long Here
14th Jul 2007, 21:41
MK 1 Nimrod, Min Crew, 12k Fuel, 100% and PABTO.

T/O run was about 800ft so IN wouldn't align!

US Herk
14th Jul 2007, 23:00
Hercules with JATO - hands down!

ehwatezedoing
15th Jul 2007, 11:11
Yeah, go baby go! :E
http://www.combatreform2.com/crediblesportextremeJATO.jpg

diginagain
15th Jul 2007, 11:41
Ahh yes, 'Credible Sport', most impressive; right up to the moment when the rockets went whoosh-bang as per the program, but 30 feet too high.

Razor61
15th Jul 2007, 12:35
Was thinking that myself, must be on youtube somewhere.....oh look i found it:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDlyk9E67_A
A lot of cop that was, wasn't it :hmm:

US Herk
15th Jul 2007, 12:36
Ahh yes, 'Credible Sport', most impressive; right up to the moment when the rockets went whoosh-bang as per the program, but 30 feet too high.

Not "per the program", human error. The forward firing rockets were manually initiated by the FE - a bit too soon on the last flight for ship #1.

But my reference to JATO was to the production version as delivered by Lockheed on all C-130E/H1 frames. Also used by US Navy Blue Angel's Fat Albert and by LC-130 aircraft in antarctic as well.

Whilst never used by RAF in service, it was tested by RAF crews for Albert...one of the spent canisters used to be in 47 SQN (SF), IIRC.

diginagain
15th Jul 2007, 13:01
Either finger-trouble, or the FE had an idea that any planned use of Rocket Retarded Landing would involve something really unpleasant, and, in reducing the fleet by a third, managed to scupper the scheme.

The AvgasDinosaur
15th Jul 2007, 13:20
Any RAF aircraft, current or past that could get airborne off Manchester Rwy 23 and get to FL 410 by overhead Birmingham airport? The parameters are: A full pay / bomb load, 1/4 fuel and fixed wing............................................
As an exercise, any military aircraft, F16 etc but with the same parameters?
There is at least one civi aircraft that can!
That'll be De havillands finest the Comet. Climbs like a homesick angel. I think in the 70's the Manchester runway was 24 and not 23, but it recently got shifted overnight to 25/07 so watch out if you are planning to visit us.
Be lucky
David

threeputt
15th Jul 2007, 15:09
Whilst never used by RAF in service, it was tested by RAF crews for Albert...one of the spent canisters used to be in 47 SQN (SF), IIRC.

Still was when I worked there two years ago. It was used as a doorstop for the Flt Cdr Trg/Ops Officer's office!

3P

contrail
15th Jul 2007, 15:22
Civvy B767-200 can make FL410 before BHX :E

RAF_Techie101
15th Jul 2007, 23:19
I happen to have a video of a Piper SuperCub (I think..) performing an 18 ft takeoff... Not sure how long to get to any altitude, but it is stupidly impressive....

West Coast
16th Jul 2007, 06:06
Thought I saw something recently that the concept was being revisited.
Anyone else hear about it as well?

moggiee
16th Jul 2007, 10:38
Bloodhound? You didn't specify manned aircraft...
Damn, you beat me to it!
Reckon the Victor2 could beat the FunBus, same engines, lighter weight.
Just beat you to it Dan, likewise. I know which one I preferred though.
Depends how light you make it. I've had the VSI on a 10 off the stops - on the UPWARDS side.

I think in the 70's the Manchester runway was 24 and not 23, but it recently got shifted overnight to 25/07 so watch out if you are planning to visit us.
Be lucky
David
No - it's just been renamed 23/05 (L or R depending upon which you are using). If you work at EGCC, I hope you're not in ATC!

Krystal n chips
16th Jul 2007, 16:03
R.A.F.G G.S.A Ka8 .....winch launched at Venlo GC....forget the placarded launch speeds and any of this "waving off" gubbins....the Cloggies, bless them,:ok: simply went balls out from "all out" to the top of the launch...watching the wings "flex" is, erm, "interesting" as they say. You have to go some way to beat this one in this respect.

I would have put money on the Lightning though ..or a Canberra / Hunter having seen them perform as it were.

Double Zero
16th Jul 2007, 19:28
Bearing in mind the power to weight ratio, no messing about with a runway run except a short STO, and that by 1000' high speed drag won't have kicked in, I find it hard to believe it's not a Harrier, probably GR3 in this respect. :bored:

Champagne Anyone?
16th Jul 2007, 21:16
I thought there was an identical thread on here a couple of years ago and the answer was the Puma.......


Just a guess...

talk_shy_tall_knight
16th Jul 2007, 21:49
I refer the hon gentlebody to post numero seveno...

towit... Fixed wing.

A2QFI
17th Jul 2007, 07:00
I'd put money on a clean F-4 with a side-bet on a lightly fuelled PR9. The first one delivered to Akrotiri in 1964 did a low overshoot and was about 10,000 ft at the end of the 9,000 runway. I do appreciate that this is not the same as a standing start but it was pretty impressive.

ORAC
17th Jul 2007, 07:08
I reckon the Harrier GR3 could have done the brakes off at 999ft thing, and it was, of course, fixed wing.... :}