Middle East lost its golden touch!!

[critical winge]

Of all the other world airline forums, the M E has the 2nd largest usage (behind Africa). Well Africa has it's problems, NO MONEY TO PAY THE CREWS. The ME has it's problems, IT DOESN'T WANT TO PAY ANY MONEY TO THE CREWS. The greed of all the ME carriers has become legendary, despite inflation and currency movements, for eg: in UAE the salary has barely moved 20% up in 20 years. 20 years ago it would have made you more wealthy, now it make you less wealthy.
For ANYONE even thinking about a move to the ME, YOU WILL REGRET IT IN THE FUTURE< I CAN ASSURE YOU!! > Just look at your own area and see that you have laws, rules, justice and a fair days work for a fair days income. Here the money is not bad, but it is extremely expensive now. Compared to say 5 years ago, fuel has more than doubled and this list is endless.. If you are thinking about it, think for about a minute and then thank your lucky stars you read these forums. If you do come, I guarantee you the grass is not greener in the dessert, as you can imagine there is NO GRASS. The only OASIS of life support in the dessert is secretly kept hidden for those in the know, the locals!!
YOU will regret it in the long term, your WIFE will, also will your KIDS ever forgive you. The choice or decision is like sitting on an ejector seat in a crashing fighter airplane. If there is any doubt, there is no doubt. But would you have got into the machine if you new the machine is faulty and might fail at any time, poorly maintained? Thats the ME airlines for you!!
Stay on your seniority list and keep your family values, here you might loose both!!

[411A]

Hmmm, I take it you are just slightly disappointed then, critical winge?:}

[MASsenger]

Well said critical wing. I don`t think you are slightly disappointed, you`re mad till your twinkle toes! I read you loud & clear. I`m out of that sandpit. Packed & took a hike the minute they started to cut down on allowances & benefits. While inflation was on it`s uptrend path, the idiots started to cut even the housing allowance. You are lucky to get a 20% movement on salary. We in Q8 got nothing. Well that was it for me, had enough b/s from the desert baboons!

That`s good advise from you critical wing.

[FlyingCroc]

I know exactly what you mean and all the others that read here and know it's true. I had had it with the sandpit :yuk: Looking for a way out.

[jack schidt]

Couldn't have put it any better myself. :D

[Black Stain]

One month chilled out, best place on earth. That was a holiday and that was quality of life. But then...

I was most surprized, actually dissappointed with myself I must admit; by the way my attitude just snapped back to angry desert mode as I felt main wheels contact. It was like a subconscious flick of a switch. And then; "Hey bro, what's wrong with Dad. Why is he clenching fists and yelling at those stupid people." At least my kids can ID stupid people easily now.

This is what several years of crap lifestyle in a nowhere third world village of incompetence will do to your sanity and your family. Time to leave, you bet. Actually considering demotion with big pay cut just to get out right now.

Good luck to you too Critical

[Dessert Aviator]

We all came to the Desert for our own good reasons, the majority, myself included because our previous employer "went under". My advise would be to do one contract (max three years) regroup your finances, without collecting any desert bagage and get back into your'e own home market. This may be easier said than done but you will be way ahead in the long run and won't spent so much time whinging about your lot on pprune.:)

[Crinklstein]

Boo Hoo Hoo:{

[brassplate]

comes down to this......ME currencies at a 25 year low to the rest of the world.

[montencee]

So after his recent and ignominious butt kicking Crinklstein (are you sure you're not Brian?) carefully dips his toe in the waters of PPRuNe posting with:

Boo Hoo Hoo:{

Not quite as worthless as his recent contributions, but pretty close.

The mood at EK sits somewhere between trying to make the best of where one finds oneself with regard to the limits, limitations and shifting goalposts of life at EK and Dubai, and actively trying to get out. Despite what deluded individuals such as Crinklstein would have us believe.

[dorf4882]

And the day you decide to leave the hot sand, count all your money, i bargain with you you will have a bad surprise...don't forget you have to pass the immigration the same day, you dont have any bank account anymore, you had to give all your IDs back and so on...Met friends last week who had the same experience, strange no ?? So guys a tip to you: start trusting when the a/c doors re closing, not one minute before. And believe me, there is another life after ME, for sure!!!

[Payscale]

Bye bye guyes where ever you may go. If you are not happy then leave. That best for all. I pity those who stay and bitch constantly. Make a decision and stick to it, and dont behave like a 22 year old cabin crew.

Good luck to you

[skype]

to bring this thread to the top.................

moved to the sandpit and i agree not the best move. i had like to think what i read on PPRUNE was not true BUT IT IS

BE AWARE OF THE LIES LOOK AT THE PPRUNE HISTORY FOR THE TRUTH

[Lock n' Load]

As usual in threads of this kind, there is an element in some posts of FIFO - "fit in or ***k off!"
The thing is, it's perfectly normal in western countries to have a whinge at the government/schools/traffic/etc and usually no one says "if you don't like it, you know the way to the airport." Granted, the sandpit is not western but most of the expats in aviation are.
It's only fair for those considering a move to this part of the world to get a fair view of what life here is like ahead of time. You won't get it from a Middle East employer and you won't get it from a week's holiday. I say bring on the whinges but keep them balanced. We could be doing someone a BIG favour by reporting the facts.
I'm leaving the sandpit soon, not because of SALIK or heat or declining living standards but because someone special isn't here! Now that I am leaving though, I can see through the gloss. So, let's have a warts and all, truthful look at life here....
The Good:
Cheap(ish) cars and gas/petrol
Cheap domestic help
Cheap eating available
Lovely winter weather
Sports opportunities, off road driving, watersports, etc
Great mix of expats, often fun to work with
A great opportunity to understand different cultures, particularly the local one
Low crime rate
Learning UAE English; "what is your good name sir?", "do you have a dirham?"
The Bad:
It's never going to be home
Expensive education, not usually covered in full by allowances
Major inflation, particularly in housing costs
Pay rises do not happen every year
Many of the items you're told are cheap here are actually more expensive than in the west
A greater likelihood of dying on the roads here than back home
Stressful commutes (except for Emirates crew in their chauffeur-driven cars!)
If certain nationalites hit you with their cars, it's your fault
Stealth taxes
Poor air quality
Absolutely nothing to do in the summer except drink
Ramadan for non-Muslims
Paying Dhs20 for a 99p/$2 price-marked food item
Expensive food and beer in hotels
Lots and lots of customer service, and all of it cr*p
Mindless bureaucracy and needing a letter of no objection from your employer to take a leak
Okay, so one or two points may be exagerated, but you get the point. Dive on in and add to the list people! :ok:

[dorf4882]

Lock n'Load
Perfect overview:ok::ok::ok:
The next step when you'll come back will be to explain to your family and friends that NO, you did not earn millions a month and YES there is something different than palaces and marinas in the hot sand.
Good luck for the future!!

[Count von Altibar]

From my knowledge of the gulf, that sounds pretty accurate L&L.

[Black Stain]

You guys in DXB have it bad eh? Pussies....

The mud further up the gulf is much deeper and smells far worse.

"Oh please sir dont sack me, I dont want to apply for work at EK or EY, Oh please no sir no, please dont send me there...."

For me, whether it's shorts or long pants to keep clean, the smell has me beat and I'm off.

[ruserious]

Pretty accurate, except...Stressful commutes (except for Emirates crew in their chauffeur-driven cars!)
For me this is the highest risk to my personal safety, at least when you drive yourself you have some influence on your destiny. However driven by one of our myopic chauffeur's that have no idea of personal safety or situation awareness, well it honestly scares the crap out of me sometimes :eek:

[mensaboy]

I do agree with you. I sometimes wonder if I would be better off driving myself to work if it came to a big accident. I have no doubt I would fair better if I was driving in a large SUV and being a defensive driver, but I weigh the risks of that against the minor fender benders with the resultant hardships of that, as compared to the risk of being killed in an audi.
It does concern me and I will speak up at any and all times that I think the driver is being less than cautious. I do it in a nice way and I have never had a driver not respond to my concerns in a proper manner, at least considering what he was doing prior to my intervention.
I always keep in mind that these poor bastards are not properly trained, and are overworked but the bottom line is that its my health or perhaps even my life in their hands. I encourage all of us to politely make it known that if a driver's performance is not indicative of a safe driver, to be understanding yet forcefully voice our concerns. I have been hit by idiots when I was going to work and each time it was not my drivers fault, yet leading up to each incident if I was the driver I would have backed off much earlier and likely, or at least hopefully avoided the accident.

[Earl]

Stayed and worked in KSA for many years.
Much happier getting out of there.
Exactly what was accomplished there is still to be seen.
Yes things are cheap, the salaries are normal, tsx free, when and if paid on time.
But after while you have to face reality, this is not your culture, you cannot change anything and after you realize this , hoping you are not on high blood pressure medication you will decide.
Many jobs now in the USA and Europe.
I just got really tired of the Arabs telling me that 911 was all a lie, trying to convert me to a religion that I could care less about along with all the hypocrites there.
Many have said 2 buckets, one for money, one for shiX. you leave when the first one fills.
Not like it was back in the early 90"s.

[loc22550]

HYPOCRITES......you couldn´t have found a better word...!:ok:

[Silverspoonaviator]

This seems to be the mantra of the ME aviation experts.

It is certainly the mantra of Dr Potty.

Has anyone explained to him and his head shaker managers, that the best way to get productivity from professionals , or all employees) is to reward them for good performance.

I always believed the carrot was better than the stick, as a motivational tool.

The threat of dismissal loses its edge, after a quick review of the vast number of pilot jobs available.

ssa

[FlyingCroc]

Sums it all up. But lets not forget that we as pilots are still doing very good compared to these poor mistreated souls that work now in slavelike condition in 50 degree heat. :yuk:
And yes to all of you out there reading these posts, most written on pprune is unfortunatley true :eek:

[Desert Diner]

So true. And now days, it's the brown bucket which seems to be getting most of the action.

[ruserious]

it's the brown bucket which seems to be getting most of the action Yes the problem is its in constant action at the moment, (guess that would make it 'Brownian motion' :p ).
My worry is that when we finally get time to pause and take a breath, the bucket will explode in our face's :eek:

[NO FD NO SRS]

I just got really tired of the Arabs telling me that 911 was all a lie, trying to convert me to a religion that I could care less about along with all the hypocrites there.



And I bet you were agreeing with all those arab on their face but now since they dont know who you are so you have decided to sh.t on them.
Hmmm:hmm: I suppoose in ur dictionary this is not hypocricy but just being polite.

[Farty Flaps]

There was a time when talking about 9/11 to an arab meant admiring his new porsche. :ok:

[Lock n' Load]

My former local supervisor, in all other respects a fine and peace-loving man whom I'd welcome to my home overseas (except I wouldn't have enough room for him, his wife, his kids and the maid) and with whom breaktime chats were usually interesting, was a 9/11 unbeliever. Or rather, he thought the US government was behind it.
When the subject came up, I certainly didn't just smile and agree with him! I pointed out that the US government couldn't have got away with it due to the fact that in a democracy (even in the current atmosphere of "security" before freedom) it would have been impossible to get so many people to keep quiet from so many different agencies, and no one in the US would likely volunteer to die just to set up a pretext for future government actions.
I doubt I changed his mind, and he certainly didn't change mine! Still, I think some expats do treat the locals more gently than is really required. I reckon many of them love a good arguement... :E

[arms2serve]

Keep telling other people "my religion is better than your's" and then expect respect in return.... nice :D.

[FlyingCroc]

That's part of the problem, praying 5 times a day, but I bet they know every brothel on every layover. Not realiizing however that the expats build everything they have and see, including their Landrovers and Rolex watches. Pathetic.

[Lock n' Load]

arms2serve - who are you aiming your post at? Only two posts in this thread mention Islam;
1. Mine saying that Ramadan is tough for a non-Muslim; and
2. Earl mentioning that some Saudis tried to convert him.

There are no mentions at all of any other religion, and none suggesting the primacy of any religion over any other! Or are you pointing at the Saudis?

FWIW, if you do happen to have a strong religious faith, whatever that faith may be, of course you believe your faith/religion has more validity than any other. I am not a Muslim, but I would doubt the faith of any Muslim who didn't believe that their view of God was the correct one! No one says I have to agree with them...
Many would argue that it is their duty to spread the word of God - it's certainly an article of faith within most Christian denominations. The big difference between the west and the middle east is that here in the Gulf it is illegal to attempt to convert anyone to a faith other than Islam. In the west, any faith and many cults are free to spread their message.

So, there you have it. One benefit of life in the UAE - no Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons ringing the doorbell at 10am when you've been working all night!!! :ok:

[loc22550]

yep..as Flyingcrok mentions...in this part of the world without expats, the only option for the locals would be to go back into the desert in their tent!!
I hope one day they will realise that and show a little bit more respect and consideration for us ....

[fractional]

I hope one day they will realise that and show a little bit more respect and consideration for us...Just like Guests...:yuk: As I said here before, I would never treat my guests like (the said) Guests are treated in the region.
I don't think that's going to happen. The money issue will always play a mega role.We are giving you a job otherwise you would be a jobless in your own country... bla... bla... If you don't like it, just go back.We are all in the same pot, but I really feel distraught the way they treat the mainly common labourer in temperatures well above the 55C mark or even more and in the open, housemaids, watchmen, the drivers, etc.. It's really a disgrace.
We all see a lot of it elsewhere, but considering these guys GDP (UAE) per capita they should give the example and extinguish such exploitation. Check this out http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5444.htm. I hope, I'm not labelled biased here because of the source of the information.
Well, what goes around comes around...:oh:

[arms2serve]

Lock n' Load - I'm aiming my post at the people who commit every sin this world has to offer then act as though they just came down from the heavens, clean and pure.

Just take a look at my location and consider what it's like being a minority over here :ugh:.

The Arabs complain talk about discrimination after 9/11, I bet it's not half of what's over here and I was born here and still living here waiting for a chance to go to a country where I can see first hand what it's like not to have that extremist threat looming over my head.

I look, walk, eat, sleep like any national of this country, but the moment I have to declare I'm a Christian, suddenly I'm someone who just came from Mars :ouch:.

[Lock n' Load]

arms2serve, thanks for answering! Given your age and location, you could very easily have been a Muslim. As I hope you can tell, I have no problem at all with Muslims who love peace and who allow others the freedom to believe and practice as they wish. The UAE is relatively liberal in that respect towards Christians.

Anyway, going back to the main point of the thread, I just realised another item to go in the "bad points" column....

Wading through a lake of sh*t-imbued water in public toilets, trying desperately to keep your trousers off the floor and wondering how many paper toilet seat covers you need to keep your bum dry!!!

[arms2serve]

Yes UAE is quite liberal, I went to Dubai last year and stayed there for 6 days and believe me those 6 days were the most carefree days I could think of since school, without exageration.

Heck I could let my mother and sister go out without having to escort them. Over here in Pakistan, eveteasing is a 'normal' harrassment many women have to face everyday under very noses of the law enforcement in the so-called most successful city i.e. Lahore :mad:.

Dubai is heaven compared to Pakistan, it all comes down to what sort of lifestyle you will have to give up to come to Dubai. A guy like me will be more than happy to live there.

[FlyingCroc]

arms2 when this is your definition regarding liberal. Maybe you should visit the western world to see what liberal means.
Besides, there are consistent complaints of young FA's being stalked and pesterd by locals and labourers in Dubai.

[6_DoF]

Sadly i think 4HP will have to step in again as this thread is getting way off topic and very racist. Once again we scrape the bottom. Lets not let a good forum become a place to air our personel grieviances of things it was not designed for.

[Desert Diner]

I too have to laugh at the notion of Dubai being called "liberal"

The statment is true in the sense of visiting and living the lifestyle seen on the TV programs. That can be obtained at a monetary cost.

Just leave the thin veneer of luxury of the tourist areas or even the areas that the western expats fear to tread and then see if you will still call it "liberal".

[sandy hills]

Liberal it may appear, but that easy going liberal shine, can disappear at the drop of a hat or the crunch of a land cruiser rear ending you, and all of a sudden you are left with the rude reality that you have no rights here.
A liberal country would allow me to eat and drink at will at any time of the day, regardless of religious festivals. Countries like Malaysia and Indonesia do not place such restrictions on their residents, and yet this country which so desperately wants to be accepted by the rest of the world as a first world country, seems to forget that real countries do not ban residents or tourists from eating and drinking at will. Liberal.....I think not.
And before I get reminded that I am a guest and to do as I'm asked, sorry...told!!! I no longer deem myself as a guest. As an investor and homeowner of so called freehold property, I am long past guest status.

[FlyingCroc]

Oh please moderator close the discussion, they are racists. :{ Just open up your eyes what is going on here. it's not us expats that cause the trouble, we are here to work, make a living for our families. And we work hard, just as the Indian laborours and the mistreated maids, not to talk about the abused child camel jockeys. Is it mostly the expats that drive like idiots recklessly in the roads and kill innocent people, are the expats stalking women? Are the expats fleecing the population with overpriced rents in crappy houses and flats. :yuk: Wake up and face the realities before you cry around and call racists. You should know who are the biggest racists.

[NO FD NO SRS]

Wel said flyingCroc.
I am totally disgusted by all these racist expats. If they have so much for arabs and islam then Middle east is the wrong place to be for them but then again MONEY TALKS.

[Lock n' Load]

While one or two posts may be on the borderline tasteless and certainly less than considered, most of what's posted here is NOT racism - it is personal experience.

Most expats have no problem with Islam, and of course it's the wrong place to be for those who do have a problem with Islam. But MANY expats DO have a problem with some of the issues raised here.

That's enough for now - I need to go and chuckle privately at the person on this thread who can't recognise sarcasm.... :E

[loc22550]

Exactly....telling the truth and what happens is one thing.......racism is another thing!!!
Probably some people doesn´t want to accept the truth....that´s another story....

[Terry Wrist]

Apathy

Ignorance

Arrogance

Rage

Exploitation

Sodomy

Incest

Restating the Seven Deadly Sins of the desert is not racist, as the list is as true as a camels foul breath.

[NO FD NO SRS]

Racism is dripping out each red word of yours like blood.
racism is written all over your post.
call it truth is bitter, call it we dont take criticism, call it western freedom of speech but any nuetral would smell the dirty rat.

[Terry Wrist]

Lighten up a bit NO FD.

Humour is not only the best medicine, it is also a great cross-cultural communication tool.

I laugh at myself, I make fun of my own culture without mercy and I make fun of other cultures where I see humour, irony and contradiction.

Weak is a culture that cannot accept a sarcastic laugh or jibe once in a while.

Get over it...

[arms2serve]

Low tolerance (and sense of humour) is what's creating the problem...

Believe me guys, this world has far more worse justice systems than your stomach could even think of digesting :ugh::mad::ouch:... if you think UAE has injustice, you're most welcome to visit me anytime and I won't have to say a thing to justify my point of view.

[Terry Wrist]

"Racism: ...the belief that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule or domesticate others"

I can honestly say that I laugh at my own stupidity more than I laugh at others. And except for my own children , I have never tried to rule or domesticate anyone. I am just having a laugh. I am sure Sir Salman Rushdie had a laugh too as he typed out that abomination. Is Sir Salman an evil racist? Dont think so, he is smarter than all of us summed.

Let's have a closer look and a laugh at the two controversial sins, Sodomy and Incest.

Single women who want to have a bit of fun but demand Sodomy to protect their virginity for marriage. Now I find that very funny!

Marriages are arranged within the family to strengthen the family. But this policy chokes the family genetic pool making all future generations more susceptible to preventable deadly disease; e.g. Diabetes. Selective genetic cultural suicide? It takes a few beers, but I find that very funny too!

[arms2serve]

Single women....demand Sodomy to protect their virginity for marriage.

Get the best of everything, besides nobody else's here so who's gonna know about our little sin, right? :D

[Lock n' Load]

Since I work on the ground rather than in the air, and in one location, I see the same people most days/nights at work and about half of them are locals. A few are Indian and Pakistani and the other almost half are a mix of western nationalities. I can say in all honesty that I enjoy the company of the majority of locals at work. They are generally very interested in what I know of foreign lands, and they seem to appreciate small gestures made to learn something of their culture. Almost to a man (and woman - there are some at work!) they love to laugh and have a great sense of humour.

MY initial post, along with most of the earlier ones in this thread before the creep set in, was about the pros and cons of living in the Middle East and NOT the pros and cons of Arabs as people. Yes, there is a connection or at least a connection to decisions made by the government which is, by definition in the UAE, made up of Arabs. One of the biggest problems is the fact that the laws made by the government do not always appear to apply equally to all people.

I don't think I'm alone in finding the company of local people, whether in the UAE, the USA or any other country, depends entirely on the personality of one's company! In most countries, especially those which don't share our native language, being in a crowd of locals is much less pleasant than being in the company of a small number who speak our language.

Other observations? It looks like the average 24-year old, Pakistani Christian can punctuate and spell rather better in English than the average Brit/Yank/Kiwi/Canuck/Seth Efrican/Ozzieb*stard of any age. :ok:

[Desert Diner]

It's not the people. It's the mindset!

[555orange]

Just cruising the prune to see whats going on in the ME. Wow..nothing has changed! Just a few years ago I was parousing the market for some work and considered come over there, but in the end I decided against it. Funny thing is, the companies were so desparate, one hired over the phone and even though I turned it down they still sent me the airline ticket to come over! I just pitched it. Next I came to Doha to check out Qatar. Wow...an eye opener. They forgot about our arrival and we were lost at the airport for hours trying to contact someone! Then the interview was .. how can I say...just rude! Not even a "thanks for coming" or "how was your flight over". The arrogance was amazing. And Emirates? You have to pay to come over on your own for an interview? Ha! Like thats gonna happen. I guess if your strategy is to go straight to the bottom of the barrel to find the guys who cant get jobs anywhere else..then thats a great strategy! Wot a laugh mates! To be real, a job is a job, and lets be grateful for it...but the good news is the market is a little bit in our favour right now. Its just hard to keep moving around eh!

[FlyingCroc]

As you see nothing has changed. And yes humour is definitley missing in Knoteetingham.:E

[loc22550]

"single woman... demand sodomy to protect their virginity for mariage....":O

Sounds to me a hypocritical attitude isn´it???:ouch:

[fractional]

Who gets this money? It's all of us labourers:{
by Rob Corder of ArabianNews.com on Wednesday, 18 July 2007
Saudi Arabia and the UAE are providing senior managers with the highest disposable incomes in the world, according to research by management consultancy Hay Group.
The World Pay Report examines not only the salaries and benefits for executives, but also compares the cost of living and taxation system in each country to come up with a figure for disposable incomes.
Saudi Arabia came first in the list with average disposable incomes for managers of $229,325 per year. The UAE came second with disposable incomes of $223,939.
In comparison, the United States came 24th with management incomes of less than half those in the Gulf States at $104,905. India came 36th with incomes of $92,750, and the UK came 40th with incomes of $86,367.
"Senior managers in Saudi and the UAE enjoy soaring levels of take-home pay, as employers in this region pay more attention to salaries rather than performance-based incentives,":D said Vijay Gandhi, Reward Information Services Manager for Hay Group Dubai.
"As demand for experienced senior managers remains high, however, companies in the region are looking more closely at the use of long-term incentives as a way of attracting and retaining international talent."
Tax-free incomes considerably boost the disposable income levels in the oil-rich states, the report added.
But while the wealth of senior managers is soaring in the Gulf, lower income groups are suffering lower than inflation pay rises,:Daccording to Hay Group.
A Hay Group report in March entitled Global Pay Day Analysis, found that the UAE had the worst salary rises after inflation in the world for administrative and professional workers:D. Pay rises of 5% were recorded across all pay grades, but with inflation taken into account, salaries in the UAE actually fell by 2.3%:D.
P.S. Is this a nighmare? After all, there is a golden touch around here:yuk:!!! It's 2AM now and I'm going to try and get some :zzz:zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[fractional]

Early detection of financial trouble
Are you heading for a financial trouble? There are many early warning signs that may help you detect a crisis before it happens.
http://www.gulfnews.com/business/money/10145594.html
Saudi Arabia tops world in take-home pay
While senior executives in the Gulf see the UAE as the most desirable place to work due to its liberal lifestyle, it is Saudi Arabia where they can have more disposable incomes.
http://www.gulfnews.com/business/Economy/10145745.html

[White Knight]

Desert Diner - what areas are we supposed to "fear to tread" here in Dubai?? I can't think of anywhere:confused:

[Shagtastic]

A crewing crisis looming at EK and yet they still reject 90% of the pilots who come to Dubai for an interview, Airbus & Boeing captains alike.. strange??:ooh:

A lucky escape for some you might say.

Shags

[donpizmeov]

No shags. There are just keeping some type of standard, however low/high that might be. Long may it continue. You certainly don't have to be a rocket scientist, or the ace from the base to get a job here.

Don

[Marooned]

It is a testament to the recuitment dept that we have still been able to find acceptable recruits and more or less keep a reasonable standard. The fact is though that we are running out of these pilots and we not only have to find more to replace those leaving but find many more to fly the constant stream of new aircraft.

The flight training department is aware of the problem but senior management seem oblivious to the impending crisis the lack of manpower will cause. Why it will take parked aircraft (or worse an incident/accident) to get their attention is a mystery to me but it appears that this is only way for them to take the problem seriously enough to do something about it... then again :ugh:

[ernestkgann]

I flew with a couple of new fellas yesterday. One bloke said that on his course they had two turbo-prop guys (Dash 8). I knew the FOM had changed but I didn't know we had these blokes in the system. Nothing wrong with that of course, I just hope the training system is geared to helping them through. I'm still not sure if it would be a good idea having them in the left seat in three years time though.

[fractional]

It is a testament to the recuitment dept that we have still been able to find acceptable recruits and more or less keep a reasonable standard. The fact is though that we are running out of these pilots and we not only have to find more to replace those leaving but find many more to fly the constant stream of new aircraftThe fact is that EK "pulls it through", and if you think of it, these headlines have been here for a long time and will continue to be so.
If you look at the package without looking at the fact that you have to live in a very tall building or elsewhere (not so nice), it is still the best package in the region. EK "works". It's a stable management with minors changes and they are now basking the hard(er) work done mainly after 91. Why it will take parked aircraft (or worse an incident/accident) to get their attention...........We have been saying this for a long time, but again they "pull it through". They will find ways to make it work.

[Marooned]

'Best package in the region' perhaps (marginally), but overall it has fallen behind in many areas. 10-15+% inflation plus a 30% decline in the $ over the past 3 years has eroded the package substantially compared with Europe and Oz. This is not unique to EK as all the other Gulf states are suffering the same erosion for the same reasons so we go down with them and just look a little better relative to them.

Outside the ME demand is putting up packages and improving Ts & Cs. This has already attracted many from the region back 'home' or nearer to it. The fact is we are losing far too much experience and attracting not nearly enough to maintain the momentum we need to expand at the intended rate.

Your faith that they will 'keep pulling it through' is an unfortunate reflection on the management approach here. 'Pulling it through' rather than easing it safely through a very difficult and demanding transition infers the higher risk factor the former entails as opposed to the safer latter approach.

I wish I had your faith, but it seems a little blind to me. I hope it doesn't end in tears but the writing, even if it has been there a for a long time, remains on the wall.

[fractional]

I wish I had your faith, I hope it doesn't end in tears, but the writing is on the wall even if it has been there a for a long timeTrue! The good thing for all of us (safety/security wise) is the fact that most (of us if not all at all) are true professionals and we always go the extra mile... to avoid that horrible spectrum. I hope it never happens. The consequences would definitely be worse in all aspects.
The bean-counters and the others alike, "love" it very much. Today, they praise you with glory (Well done! You are the man!...), tomorrow, they scald you (you are f#@&ing idiot) or show you the exit door (you are fired!). And that's it!

[Marooned]

Agreed, although there is a definately a shortage of any praise or glory.

It's ironic that we are the weakest link when it comes to the company when there is a screw up and the strongest link in preventing the problems happening in the in the first place.

[412]

You boys think you've got it bad? Try working here in the UAE as a helicopter pilot for a change...it'll take your reasons for bitching to a whole new level :ugh:

[Mach084]

Yoouu mmmeeennn aa hhheeellliiiicccooopppttteeerrr pppiiilllooottt:bored:

[412]

Mach...if you're talking 'bout the ones who still actually qualify as pilots as opposed to endurers of long haul boredom, then, yes...those are the ones I mean ;)

[Mach084]

Spot on mate, no doubt about it, we certainly are more like computer operators than good old fashion pilots anymore. Long time ago when I was a wee flight instructor I had a good mate who was a helicopter instructor and we always gave the guy grief about how he's a lawn mower jock and all that. One day he said fancy giving the Bell 47 a ride, "bet you cannot hover it" so ofcourse I gave it a go and sure enough it was a handfull. Since then I have a whole lot more respect for helicopter drivers.

Cheers mate

Mach

[inciter]

If they are rejecting 90% of their candidates its about time they reviewed their requirements because they are interviewing the wrong people.

Middle East airlines are expanding rapidly and need people to fill left seats fast. What they need are applicants with previous turbo prop/jet short haul, multi sector time and preferably in command. Previous wide body / long haul experience and in particular no command for the most part is a waist of time.

Once these guys/girls get their heads around some of the fundamentals of swept wing aircraft and there aren't that f-----g many they'd be ready to go.

If on the Bus they might need 12-18 months to get used to pulling and pushing their knobs as that is all flying an Airbus is (just a big wank).

Previous time on type is just a cost saving exercise and not a command attribute. They need to be assessing command potential in the sim which includes communication skills, CRM, situational awareness and proficiency. Just give them a 45 min loft scenario from A to B with an emergency, and let the exercise run its course. You will learn a lot more about someone's command ability out of this than flying a circuit followed by a V1 cut and single engine ILS.

Follow these steps watch the success rate go up!!

[GMDS]

Doesn't help.
The guys that would convince you during such exercises are no longer showing up, T&C's just not attractive enough.
I concurr with the 90% fail rate, because it reflects who's still applying, unfortunately.
The only remedy is bringing T&C's in line with the requirement of the human quality they're seeking, especially for TRI/E's, or settle for the quality that effectively still shows up.

I've flown as pax quite often recently and the experience (i.e. on board service, quality of seats or IFE, but unfortunately just as much the poor PA's and sometimes very "managed" flight (dis)comfort) is at best questionable. This is a direct consequence of EK sitting on the wrong side of the dirham.:{

[aadog]

I have been reading this post for only a day so I'm basically clueless. Where are the DEC's coming from for UAE? UAE's positive poster claims of life being great in Dubai seams to be a bit different than the post on this thread. I was actually thinking about applying but not much positive stuff here? I lived in Yuma AZ through the summers (aka 50c +) and I have an open mind about culture and realize a Westerner would be a 2nd class citizen. If I have a solid flying job here in the US am I an absolute idiot to consider coming to the sand pit???

DOG aka clueless for now?? :ooh:

[Marooned]

There you have it Dog... come to the ME if it gets you ahead somehow but be very careful because it just isn't that clear cut any more and it's no wonder you and others are confused by it all.

Once pilots came because at some point you could cash in the chips and lead a better lifestyle back at home...

Now they would have you believe you are living the lifestyle whilst here in the desert and think they can get away with paying you a 'local wage'... enough to stand still, but not enough to save for a that homecoming one day.

My advice... come and take a look, a very close look before signing anything. I didn't look too closely and saw what I wanted to see and have paid a high price for it... I don't think I'm alone in that respect.

[ironbutt57]

Don't know about EK....but stay on the silverbird dude, been to Yuma many times myself...prefer it...

[helibee]

Yep , ive had a :mad:gutts full of this dump , can anyone please help on how to get out of here .......


I must say that its great to see that iam not the only one feeling this way
Ive even being making a video log , so that next time I have a bloody brain fart , and think I can do better for myself by working in a place like this, I can sit down , have a look at my video , and then go to work with a grin on , like the :mad: old days ,the main thing is can anybody please help me with a good idea on how to leave these place still with my head held high

regards
hb:ugh::ugh::eek::}:ugh::ugh::zzz: hehehe

[h-f-radio]

HYPOCRITES.:= it's time to leave to go HOME:{

[GMDS]

Going somewhat back to the original theme of this thread:

"DAE abandons bid to buy Auckland airport" (Gulfnews 7.9.07)
"..... first DP World was not allowed by American lawmakers to keep six US ports .... and currently the Borse Dubai is trying to buy the Nordic exchange operator OMX ... and now the Auckland retreat .. "

And still it doesn't ring a bell to the locals! Why would the world not want their participation or money? :ouch: Maybe, just maybe due to bad experience. Anyone having dealt with them knows how little they honour contracts and promises. More and more expats have left the ME and share their experience once back home again. A good start to remedy the situation might be a tight broom right here in the ME, i.e. rattle the nicely protected bushes of Nakheel, Emaar, Etisalat (maybe even EK) and make them accountable for what they signed. Maybe, just maybe there would be a little more confidence of people in direct contact and this would reflect outside of the region.

[ShockWave]

It's been my experience that non fulfillment of obligations is a world wide phenomena not just the middle east. Also the abuses you mention within Dubai are not exclusive to local companies, many respectable international organizations are also guilty of such things while operating here.
It is perhaps more prevalent in this part of the world due to the lack of rules, unions and or government protection.

I think the negative response to the US ports was due to a fear of all things connected with Islamic countries and that all embracing excuse for all... SECURITY.
The airport deal in NZ was simply a fear of all thing connected with Emirates and the competition that they brought to Air NZ.

[ernestkgann]

You don't reckon Kiwis can be as xenophobic as the rest of us?