Baillieu drama at 6,000 feet

[TLAW]

Baillieu drama at 6,000 feet (http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/baillieu-drama-at-6000-feet/2007/07/12/1183833691111.html)

The Age, Paul Austin
July 13, 2007


OPPOSITION Leader Ted Baillieu and two other senior Victorian Liberals have been involved in a frightening mid-air drama during a flight from Melbourne to inspect flood-ravaged East Gippsland.
The door on their light plane flew open at about 6000 feet as gusty winds buffeted the aircraft in foggy conditions. :eek::eek::eek:
One of the two pilots raced down the aisle and battled to close the door, which was banging on the fuselage of the 10-seater Piper Chieftain.
Mr Baillieu, who was sitting closest to the door, held onto pilot Scott Talman as he leaned out of the plane and tried to pull it closed.
Realising the wind was too strong, Mr Talman warned the passengers to tighten their seatbelts, rushed back to his seat and sent out a distress call so the twin-engine plane could make an emergency landing at Traralgon.
The three passengers — Mr Baillieu, his chief of staff Michael Kapel and Opposition emergency services spokesman Andrew McIntosh — and Mr Talman and co-pilot Connie Dunn endured freezing temperatures and high winds in the cabin during a 10-minute descent to Latrobe regional airport, with the door still open.
"Probably the biggest danger was that one of us could have been sucked out," Mr McIntosh said yesterday.
"It's not like a big jet that is pressurised — you are not flying at that level — but the speed and the wind could have easily dragged us out."
He said the most anxious moments were when the pilot was "fighting with the door".
"It was pretty brave of the pilot to do what he did," Mr McIntosh said.
"After we'd got back onto the ground, he said he'd never seen anything like that in all his years of flying."
Mr Baillieu said: "I've spent a fair bit of time in small planes over the years and been in some interesting situations before, but not quite as interesting as that one."
Asked how his wife and children had reacted when he told them what had happened, Mr Baillieu said: "They were happy that I was telling them about it rather than someone else."
He paid tribute to the "thorough professionalism" of the pilots, who were able to secure the door while the plane was on the runway at Traralgon before flying on to their destination, Bairnsdale.
Charter company DirectAir decommissioned the plane after it returned to Essendon Airport. An investigation found the door's safety latch was faulty.
DirectAir wrote to Mr Baillieu to apologise.
In a statement last night, managing director Mark McLaughlin said: "At no stage was Mr Baillieu or his two staff in any danger."
He said DirectAir was proud of its safety record. "It flies thousands of hours every year and this is the first time in its history that a door latch has come loose."
Mr Baillieu emphasised he was happy with the service and would gladly use the company again.
The Opposition Leader's dry sense of humour was on display during the incident, which happened last Saturday week.
As the door of the plane flew open, he told Mr Kapel and Mr McIntosh: "You'd better tell the pilot that we've lost the door."
After the pilot's frantic efforts to close the door failed, Mr Baillieu said: "I suppose this means we had better keep our seatbelts on."

:D

[NZFlyingKiwi]

Reminds me of the NZ Prime Minister's near death experience a couple of years back when the door on her Aztec came open... ;)

[Buster Hyman]

What? You've never seen an Aztec vomit before???:}:yuk:

[Atlas Shrugged]

"Probably the biggest danger was that one of us could have been sucked out," Mr McIntosh said yesterday.

Sucked out of a Chieftain at A060.......:mad:wits

[VH-Cheer Up]

Sucked out of a Chieftain at A060.......wits

He's just upset because he doesn't have the heady aroma of antelope chamois headlinings and chinese silk brocade wall linings in his chartered Chieftain, unlike the Federal Chieftain, who's done a lovely reno (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22066982-2,00.html)on his BBJ...

[Critical Reynolds No]

My thoughts as well Atlas when I read that. What a Parrot.

[VH-Cheer Up]

Isn't the dreaded door latch an ongoing problem with Pipers?

Over thirty years-odd I've had doors become slightly unlatched (although not flapping about in the breeze like Mr Baillieu's) on a Cherokee 140 (twice) and once on a Tomahawk.

The problem is the door seems to shut, it feels shut, it sounded like it did shut, when you press it it doesn't budge, then blow me down, you get to A015 and the thud, follwed by the roar (well, on a Cherokee, whimper) of the slipstream which holds the door in place - and prevents you from re-closing the darn thing properly.

Best solution - climb to five thousand, HASSELL, stall the aircraft, reach over and pull the door shut and lock it, and pull out by A045.

I have to say, one gets better at doing that with a bit of practice.

Fortunately, I've never had the same thing happen on the Saab...

[A37575]

Presumably ATSB would be interested if the design of the door latching mechanism is defective? And had there been verbal reports by other pilots of this specific aircraft of a door problem? These things just don't happen without hints of previous little events that eventually when pieced together reveal a potential problem. Happens with other aircraft types. Depends a lot if pilots report the problem in the maintenance release. Experience reveals they seldom do.

Duchess doors were known to "pop" open on take off and several years ago ATSB acknowledged there had been many instances of Duchess doors experiencing uncommanded opening. Yet ATSB had not been aware of the extent of the problem because few pilots ever defected the doors in the maintenance release. It was only when the problem of Duchess doors was highlighted in the Flight Safety Australia magazine that the cat was let out of the bag.

If doors or hatches are continually difficult to shut on the ground without slamming or equally unusual measures, then the defect should be addressed immediately - not shrugged off with the old "that's GA" mentality. Because one day that door or hatch may pop open in flight at the most unconvenient time as the media have just recorded.

[Atlas Shrugged]

It was only when the problem of Duchess doors was highlighted in the Flight Safety Australia magazine that the cat was let out of the bag.


or perhaps by the Action Man wannabe ex bank runner over the radio at BK a few years ago ;)

[VH-Cheer Up]

I have to say the first TWO times it happened to me I was an 18-year old student pilot in the UK.

I blamed myself for what I thought was an inadequate level of care when closing the door.

Later (years later) when comparing notes with other pilots, it seems to have been a bit of a common theme, not related to any one airframe, but related always to Piper, never Cessna. At least, not that I was able to discern.

Forgot about it until picking up this morning's Age...

Might be a bit late to report but one aircraft I remember in the UK was G-AWBS. Of course, that was 1971, so they may have solved - or more likely, scrapped it - by now.
--------------
I'll be... It was still around in 2005 (http://futurshox.net/aeroview.php?level=image&id=3242)

[Howard Hughes]

but related always to Piper, never Cessna.
Try telling that to the scores of people who have had a nose locker spring open! ;)

Many 400 series are fitted with clips, latches and other assorted locks to prevent this from happening!

I myself have had three incidents, one in Mr Beechs finest and two in Mr Cessnas! Luckily though these were long, long ago...http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/old.gif

I might add that most of these types of occurences are caused by 'finger trouble', in my case, only one was not my fault!:O

[tio540]

"If doors or hatches are continually difficult to shut on the ground without slamming or equally unusual measures, then the defect should be addressed immediately - not shrugged off with the old "that's GA" mentality. Because one day that door or hatch may pop open in flight at the most unconvenient time as the media have just recorded."

Hey, most of the GA aircraft doors I have seen need to be slammed, or held shut, then latched.

Besides, the aircraft should have been grounded a Traralgon. How can you continue to the destination, then ground it? The lower door pax door on the Chieftain is veeeeeery close to the tailplane when it comes off.

[bushy]

Either by the pilots or the engineers. I flew Chieftains for many years, and never had a rear door problem, or heard of one.
It's easy to blame the aeroplane, but most problems are caused by people.

[VH-BOX]

......it seems to have been a bit of a common theme, not related to any one airframe, but related always to Piper, never Cessna. At least, not that I was able to discern.I am aware of at least one 182RG door popping open. I was a student at the time, back before the old queen died, and was doing my CSU/Retractable endorsement. I arrived on terra firma a little 'enthusiastically' on one occasion, and the passenger door magically opened. My instructor was unimpressed to say the least, particularly as it was on his side so he couldn't flog me for fluffing the 'harnesses and hatches' check.....

[The Kavorka]

Bushy,

I agree...flew pa31 for long enough (too long), the door must not have been closed properly.....

From memory doesnt the chieftan have an latch on the right hand side of the downward closing door that would make it nearly impossible to open in flight..the ones I flew did!! Perhaps this was faulty or not secured....

Just a thought!!!!!!

[Howard Hughes]

I agree with Bushy and Kavorka, from my recollections, very, very hard to not lock the Chieftan correctly, in fact I have never heard of one coming open in flight previously!:rolleyes:

Now the nose locker, well that is a different story...;)

[Yon Garde]

If the company claims the door lock was found to be faulty (and decommissioned), why did the crew decide to continue the day's flying and fly another 2 legs?

[bushy]

The Chieftain can fly with the rear door removed. I have seen it done for photography.

[Avid Aviator]

Yeah, but there's a big difference between flying with the door removed, and the door being removed whilst in flight! As mentioned above, the PA31 rear door is close to the stab.

[VH-Cheer Up]

How well would it fly with half the port stabiliser removed?

[Soulman]

which was banging on the fuselage of the 10-seater Piper Chieftain

Never mind the subsequently warped doorframe - quite a costly fix.

Should never have happened in the first place.

[gupta]

[Sidetrack alert]
Bushy
There was a considerable amount of work done in the mid 80's in Alice re the development of heliboxes for dropping in rescues, and many test drops from Cheiftains with the door removed.
Brian Pepper was the SATC at the time, and I think he's still there in ASP - try the golf club.
[/Sidetrack Alert]

[kiwiblue]

Hey, most of the GA aircraft doors I have seen need to be slammed, or held shut, then latched.

Excuse me??? What a crock of ****. It is EXACTLY that sort of treatment that CAUSES the problem with these doors in the 1st place!!! Treat them with a little respect and care they'll last, abuse them as described here and expect more of the same. If you are having trouble with your aircraft doors, get them fixed. Never let your pax operate your aircraft doors, ever -unless it's a dire life-threatening emergency. They'll slam them every time eventually distoring the door and/or frame, just so that they feel a little more secure!!!

Pet Hate rant over for the now. It's just the old axiom; look after the gear it'll look after you. Should be tattooed on every pilots arse.

[tio540]

Kiwiblue

GA aircraft, that have 30 year old doors, are not like your 2 year old Airbus.

I don't believe they ever closed like a Commo'dore'.

Back to the topic - the aircraft should have been grounded at Traralgon, for the benefit of all concerned.:)

[the wizard of auz]

I have to agree with Kiwi. I have never seen a pax that can close the door without slamming it as hard as possible. even after just having been briefed NOT TO SLAM THE DOOR AS YOU CLOSE IT
constant slamming will distort the door over time (yeah, thirty years will do it) but we also must keep in mind that the door was never designed to be closed like a car door. Generally they are lightweight affairs and need to be handled in the appropriate manner. Close the door by pulling it closed and holding the weight on it while locking it will work and not wreck your door.
15Yrs of flying and the only door I have had come open was a nose locker door that I never secured properly.
Done heaps of flying with the doors of in all sorts of aircraft (some didn't even have doors or a roof) and never once did I feel like I was in danger of being sucked out of the aircraft. :ugh:

[kiwiblue]

GA aircraft, that have 30 year old doors, are not like your 2 year old Airbus.

That's a sweeping assumption. I have not ever flown an Airbus of any age, nor do I ever wish to. I have however operated GA aircraft for something like 30-odd years and I can assure you, a properly maintained and cared-for aircraft will have doors that open and close just like the Commo'dore' you refer to. There is absolutely no reason they shouldn't -again as long as they are properly cared for and maintained, and you never let the pax operate the doors in other than the most dire, life-threatening emergency.

[The Kavorka]

Kiwiblue,

I never flew any GA aircraft that were in excellent condition.

Most would agree that a lot of GA operators are unwilling to spend huge amounts of cash to keep their aircraft in A1 condition.

Most I flew, espically the freighters were as rough as guts, some had well over 20000hrs on them, and the doors had to slammed to get them shut properly.

You may say get them fixed, but read above, unless it's going to fall off some of the crooks that own GA companys won't touch them!!!

[kiwiblue]

Sort of comes back to the point though doesn't it the Kavorka. If the doors had been properly cared for and maintained from new by the pilots and pax, the issue would never have arisen. You as a pilot have a responsibility to care for the airframe under your command; if you do your bit, we're all better off.

I'm not going to get into a discussion re operators' failing to ensure a proper repair; again, if you are not happy with it, as PinC it is your responsibility to see that it is written up and if necessary bring pressure to bear to ensure the repair is made.

On one level at least I can sympathise with operators not making complete repairs when they know that the next hour-building 'candidate' (another word was in mind) in the door will not properly address their responsibility to care for the airframe. Would you?

Don't always be looking to someone else to fix your problems. If you accept and properly address the responsibilities that come with your licence then we're all at least one step closer to a better and easier (safer) existence.

It's just the old axiom; look after the gear it'll look after you. Should be tattooed on every pilots arse.

[The Kavorka]

Kiwiblue

I agree totally, but in the real world this does not happen.

Thankfully I have been out of GA for a number of years now and can forget about some of the crap I/we used to put up with..

It is easy to say write up any defect, and I used to alot, but when the owner comes up to you and says "You have really F%$#%d us by grounding this a/c, I suggest you change to it to Written In Error, or find yourself a new job" for a young, broke and deep indebt pilot this can be sometimes very hard...

[kiwiblue]

I'm not saying it's easy. I am saying you can't have it both ways.

[Centaurus]

It is easy to say write up any defect, and I used to alot, but when the owner comes up to you and says "You have really F%$#%d us by grounding this a/c, I suggest you change to it to Written In Error, or find yourself a new job" for a young, broke and deep indebt pilot this can be sometimes very hard

So very sad and so true. My guess is the majority of general aviation pilots - particularly those starting out in their career have experienced this sort of treatment at some time or another. Yet strange to say, all the you beaut glossy brochured flight safety organisations with corporate sponsorship from the airlines and government sources, never mention it in their magazines or media outlets. The subject is too dirty to talk about and best swept under the carpet.

[CHAIRMAN]

tio540,
Like most everyone else has said, doors on a/c have NEVER closed like your Commodore. FYI, commodores have vents that let the trapped pressure escape when you 'SLAM' the door. Cherokees and most other lighties don't have the same feature, to help reduce wind noise.
HENCE, the harder you slam the door, the HARDER it will be to CLOSE!
Try either opening the storm window to let the air escape, or close the door GENTLY, and in the correct order --- THAT is why the suggestion to not have the passengers close the doors is a good one. The door on my Archer closes just as good now as it did 28 years ago when it was made! Granted maintenance has had to be made along the way, mainly to compensate for the heavy handedness of the unwashed.

[bushy]

For some strange reason nearly all the door problems are experienced by new pilots. (fact)
In 15,000 hours I had three door problems. Two of these were caused by faulty door mechanisms, and were fixed the same day. The third was finger trouble.
I also operated a number of single engined Pipers, and each one of them had to have the nose locker door repaired, because they had been left unlatched for takeoff. (not faulty until after the event) In each case the pilot was a new CPL holder, in his first year, or a casual pilot. It never happened to the more experienced pilots.
In one instance I closed the baggage locker door on a C210 after the pilot had loaded pax, closed doors and started the engine. He was about to taxi with it open. I wonder if he is one of the posters who is denigrating operators here.
Let's look at this a little closer. Operating an aeroplane is a team effort. The blame game is not usually very productive. We need to think a little harder and work together.
Incidents are usually caused by people.

[tio540]

Dear Chairman

I'm sorry, but your Archer door has little in common with a Chieftain passenger split door. It also has 18,000 hours, and flies 5 sectors per day, 6 days per week.

The reference to the Commo'dore' was my comparison, don't quote me my own text.

I also do not damage doors, nor do they open in flight.

Should we return to the bar, and discuss the actual topic of the post?:)

[Centaurus]

In each case the pilot was a new CPL holder, in his first year, or a casual pilot. It never happened to the more experienced pilots.


This suggests that operators who decide to hire new CPL's could afford to spend a little more time and money in training them. Not take the attitude of "You've got a bloody licence mate - now go fly and make some money for me." Airline companies who recruit new pilots have that responsibility - so should GA operators.

[bushy]

This is quite right. I think we did a little better than the other operators on the field, but it still happened.
Centaurus will now share with us the magic that is needed to prevent door incidents. He may also tell us which airlines have 200 hour temporary pilots as captains.

[Centaurus]

Centaurus will now share with us the magic that is needed to prevent door incidents. He may also tell us which airlines have 200 hour temporary pilots as captains

Now Now Bushy - don't be like that. All I am saying is that new CPL's should at least be given a crash course on the aircraft they are required to fly and not just handed a bucket and mop and told to clean the hangar floor.

[VH-Cheer Up]

A crash course?

:eek:

[Bumpfoh]

Anyone aware of the A/C rego????

This may shed some light on the condition of the aircraft in general.:ok:

[Centaurus]

A crash course?


Whoops! Not quite what I meant...:uhoh:

[morning mungrel]

Yes, I'll tell you it was PWA. Excellent mechanical condition. Those of you who know chieftains might be able to explain how the TOP door can come open if the lower one doesn't? As far as I can tell, only one way that can happen people. And I can assure you there was NOTHING wrong with the locking system on that aircraft. It's owner takes a fair degree of pride in keeping it in good shape. Door warning system functional in that a/c too.......Maybe shutting the door from the outside, thereby ensuring it is done properly might be a good safety tip in future.

[Di_Vosh]

GB wont be pleased! :ouch:

Always in top condition.

[kimwestt]

Having done a couple of hours in them, have found the best pre flight check is:
Close the lower door onto the FIRST latch only (the safety latch).
Then give the door a very firm pull, as if to open the door. If the safety latch does not hold the door shut - the latch system is a) out of adjustment, or
b) worn out.
A job for the engineers which ever way you look at it.
:)