Update on pay negotiations

[Rice Pudding]

Everything the company currently does is aimed at alleviating the current pilot shortage. And everything the company says is aimed at convincing us that there isn't a shortage.

A little history lesson....

Up until a few years ago the 747-400 used to have two crewrest "love seats" at the front of the upper deck. They were screened off from the rest of the cabin. A couple of years back management progressively removed the screens, although they assured us at the time that there would be no other changes to the rest seats. That was until they began to sell them on the short haul flights to increase revenue. No problem, we still had them for the ULH flights. Right up until now. With the new ULH business class product we now only have one crew rest seat. The idea was sold to us that there would be an economy seat reserved for the junior crew to take their rest in, but so far there has been no such thing. So, with a few small changes made over time the company got their way, at our expense.

Why your salary is about to be reduced in a tradeoff for higher Hourly Duty Pay:

Several years ago, Hourly Duty Pay (HDP) was introduced, apparently as an extra payment at the time. Most of us didn't miss the point that it was not made provident fundable. At present it forms a relatively small part of our overall pay. The problem with normal salaries is that during a downturn, or when pilots are being accrued for a fleet expansion, the productivity decreases, however the salary cost doesn't. Salaries, including holiday pay and provident fund contribution are all paid at the normal rate. It was "sold" to us (and lets face it, as an extra pay component it didn't take much selling) as a pay incentive to encourage and reward those who worked more - thereby perhaps cutting down on sickleave etc. But what is in it for the company and why the need to introduce an duty pay component ?

There is a high chance that over the next few years the component of hourly duty pay will increase as a result of negotiated pay rises, in lieu of an increase in basic salary. Take a situation in the future where only 50% of our normal paycheck is salary, and the rest is HDP. During a downturn when pilots are rostered to fly say only 25% of their usual monthly hours, their total monthly pay will only be around 63% of the usual monthly pay. It still leaves the company the ability to roster and pay overtime during an expansion, along with the ability to cut right back on pay during a downturn. And the HDP is not provident fundable, so it's a very effective way of subtly reducing provident fund contributions without negotiating it.

And many of you will also remember the not so subtle change, to make the housing allowance taxable a couple of years ago. It is now classed as part of your monthly pay, and called "salary". And for good reason. Given sufficient time for our memories to dull, it will gradually have the "housing allowance" designation removed completely, leaving the way clear to merge it with both hourly duty pay and basic salary.

How the company will offset the costs of a payrise:

The company have made their intent clear to introduce age 65 retirement. They have denied that they aim to introduce 3 man ULH, but this flies in the face of their recent proposal to CAD for 3 crew ULH, so we need to realise that it's simply a matter of "WHEN", not "IF". You see, 3 crew ULH is an easy one for them. If they put it to the vote, there are many pilots who will vote for it in return for an increase in the HDP payments. Anyone who currently flies 2 crew (B777 and A330) or 3 crew (B777 and A330 and Freighter) will be very likely to vote for an increase in HDP in return for 3 crew ULH - simply because there is no downside to them - they are already operating 3 crew anyway.

Everything the company currently does is aimed at alleviating the current pilot shortage. And everything the company says is aimed at convincing us that there isn't a shortage.

[BlunderBus]

interestingly SQ flies hkg-anchorage with TWO crew

[The Management]

You really believe you deserve a pay rise. Well sorry to disappoint you but it is not going to happen. We will offer a low single digit pay rise for double digit productivity gain and other items we want in your COS.

As with Dragonair (which is part of the Cathay Pacific Group) you will only received a single digit increase in pay. We may have to address the DEFO Freighter positions (we will incorporate this in the new contract you accept with merged First Officer pay) but a pay rise for the rest of the group is preposterous. Why will The Cathay Pacific Group give more money for less productivity? Every year a pilot works here, they receive an increase in pay i.e. annual payscales.

We will endeavor to crew the Freighter fleet (Temporary basings in North America, many Captains still volunteering and many more First Officers). It has been done in the past and will be done in the future. The new contract will have all voluntary freighter flying removed from the contract. This will enable us to roster any pilot for freighter duties (in accordance with the freighter rostering practices of course). You will lose your contractual right “not to fly the freighter”.

We have just received an AFTL variance for our London Flight with no or very little consultation with the AOA. Who runs the show here in HK? We have to consult the pilot group but we chose to ignore it at your peril. You are pathetic. You cannot even police your own policies.

Retirement age is not a massive issue. We will continue of offer extensions to suitable candidates (on lower than existing conditions) beyond the age of 55 which will help out with our training task. This may slow upgrades but you should be proud to fly “The Cathay Pacific Group” aircraft what ever position you hold.

Hourly Duty Paid will be introduced and as expected it will pass. Possibly not the first time but with the proper propaganda in place it will the second time. Pilots can not see into the future and what does not affect them now, will affect them later in their career. The pilots can not see this. A small pay rise for substantial productivity, which is our campaign.

Our 744F, 777 and 330/340 now operate 3 crew to various destinations, so 3 pilot operations will be no different. Most will never operate the 744P fleet and we will pit many against one. As you know it works well. The CAD is close to giving controlled rest in seats with the introduction of 3 pilot ULH under 15 hours scheduled flight time.

Will the pilot group go on strike, contract compliance, sickout, absenteeism, wear unhappy faces on their ties, etc? I think not. We will not hesitate to terminate contracts en masse to keep the pilots submissive.

Will the pilots leave? A few lower ranking pilots may leave but The Cathay Pacific Group still offers the best contract in Asia. Many can not leave due to seniority issues with other airlines and/or are too old to start at the bottom, some are too young for other contract jobs due to time away, others are on better packages than others and won’t leave, so we have you just where we like.

The HKCAD is made up of Business People and will endeavor to rule in favor of “The Cathay Pacific Group” with regard to the upcoming AFTL talks. In the meantime, they will issue variations to the AFTL’s that we request.


You are weak, the pilot group is weak, which makes your AOA weak and we will do what we want.


You do not realize the POWER of the “Cathay Pacific Group”.

Good fortune in finding greener pastures.

Here is to my bonus.

The Management

[dragon501]

So sad.... But sooo true....

[SMOC]

Management, I noticed you guys have dropped the Company car Volvos for Audis, got yours yet, and what's it like?

[fire wall]

Blunderbus, I know sq did the 2 crew thing to the US some time ago and got away with it but have heard the FAA came down on them big time and threatened revoking their approvals to fly to US unless they met mandated US crewing requirements

[Sqwak7700]

"but as you are aware we believe that the recent HKAOA notice regarding the integration of both passenger and freighter aircraft was a small step in the wrong direction and it has not made it any easier for us to promote the benefits of union membership with enthusiasm. I am sure hower that this is only a temporary set back

N P Rhodes Director Flight
Operations"

Ah, the Union should be sending a letter back to Mr. Rhodes explaining that it is not a temporary setback. Something explaining to him that the basic purpose of the Union is to look after the membership, not to cater to the Company. If the Company also looks after its employees, then the relationship with the Union will be good. It is that simple. :ugh:

As far as negotiations....from the tone of the Union update I think I'm gonna update my logbook and start filling out applications yet again....:yuk:

[Saturn]

Yeah, I think it may be time to stop wasting time here! Man there is lots of work out there right now. But where does one go? Anyone have good info on who's recruiting? We know we have Oasis, Emirates, UPS, Virgin Blue. Who else?

[Rice Pudding]

I guess the point to remember is that conditions and pay are not what they used to be, and if you project into the future - well, it's not a particularly rosy picture, as conditions are slowly whittled away, and pay is slowly overtaken by inflation. B scale pay was a large cut from A scale, and there have no B scale pay rises for at least 6 years.

As an employee, it is simply another company - the glory days are long gone - and many pilots now treat CX as a stepping stone. In this regard it can be a good step. They will give you a 747-400 rating and a North American base, and after 2-3 years you will have 1000+ of heavy jet time. You will work hard, and spend long trips away from home with many last minute roster changes. Go into it with your eyes open, and enjoy it for what it is.

If you are contemplating joining as a second officer, again, keep you eyes open. You'll be given a type rating, and alot of travel. The Hong Kong experience is what you want to make of it, and can be alot of fun. You will start on enough pay to support a single person in a small apartment, and it will afford you enough for standby travel on your days off. If you want to bring a family with you, then you will need some savings to get through the first few years, particularly with children. The starting housing allowance will pay for a small (+/- 700 sq/ft) apartment.

But Hong Kong will not make you rich, certainly no more so than your own home country will. That is to say that if you were going to make millions, then you would already be doing so in your home country. It would be wearing rose coloured glasses to assume that a position in HK is the opportunity that it once was. Compared to airline pay here in the 1980's you are now paid a small fraction of the purchasing power, and you will earn every cent of it.

[whodunnit2]

I was rather optimistic that the company would look at the "big picture" and realise that a substantial pay increase was needed to keep the overall package attractive. Naive!

I thought that we are Cathay Pacific! We only recruit the best! Not anymore I dare say - you pay peanuts ........

The tone in the union update certainly doesn't sound too positive. I wait with baited breath to see how many walk out the door if this is the case.

Sad, sad times if that is where we are heading!

W2

[sizematters]

mmm, latest update, the freighter is suddenly doing Delhi-London and delhi-Paris, with 2 man crew.....................course they are not short of Pilots, they just say they can give a better block of days off after trip like this.............................


What a load of Bollox.................

still, if they think they are short now,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Nullaman]

Quote: still, if they think they are short now,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I am reliably informed the next batch of interviews for freight dawgs wanting to have a bash at SLF are taking place at the TC Job Centre. The Oz routes, in prospect, are probably driving that.

[cpdude]

There will be no "pay increase" until moral improves!:}

Thanks for all your hard work.:yuk:

[sizematters]

United will begin taking applications electronically at midnight Monday. First classes planned for about 60 days from now - they plan about 100 this year and 300 next year according to the brief I listened to yesterday at DENTK.

Things have definitely changed - no simulator ride or pre-employment major medical etc. The thinking is that a simulator ride did not really prove or disprove anything if the previous screening out was done correctly. You have a year of probation following the crushingly time compressed time at DENTK to strut your stuff.

The application page will go live Monday - they will wait three days and then start to process qualififed applicants.

The process will involve a series of electronic screening tests, a phone interview to verify qualifications (??!), a personal interview conducted in Chicago with a UAL interview Captain and HR representative. You will be scored on all that and then the company will conduct a final screening board (applicant NOT invited) to determine the final selection.

From the web site -

Needed -
1500 hours Total Time - Fixed Wing.
1000 hours Multi-engine time (PIC) or Military fighter/trainer (PIC).
500 hours Turbine Time.
100 hours flown in the past year (Recency of experience).
Current FCC license.
Current valid passport.
Current First Class Medical.
Current ATP Certificate with Multi-engine land rating (AMEL).
High school diploma or GED equivalent.
Legal right to work in the United States.
A college degree from an accredited school is preferred.

[sizematters]

Long list of 3rd class citizens (Oooops sory Freighter Captains) with Oasis. I have just been talking to them and they have just bought 6 more 744's from SQ and their own simulator. The many 3rd Class Citizens at CX (Frt Cn's) will wait till the outcome of the negotiations is announced and then make their minds up

But...........If the pay raise don't cut it.............................

I don't think flying the freighter will be optional any more, you'll either fly it or it won't go anywhere.........................for sure if the pay rise is an insult they'll lose another 20 or so, either to Oasis or those on recall to the US etc etc

[ULRequalsSLEEP]

Sizematters,
considering this payrise will be covering the period Jul 01 to Jul 10 we can safely assume a payrise of at least 30%+ just to recover from inflation(bases) and exchange rate losses(hkg).

I wouldn't expect them to match the 41% that EK have increased their pay over the last 5 years - that would be asking too much.

So don't jump ship just yet...big payrises may just be around the corner!

[Nullaman]

So don't jump ship just yet...big payrises may just be around the corner!

I have just seen a four-ship of pink elephants flying over HKG

[BMM389EC]

And I've just seen some snow falling on my balcony in HKG>:}

[wombatatico]

That was ash from the coal burning factories to the north.

Yup, as a member of the AOA I am greatly concerned about these pay negotiations.

Why is the AOA being so damn nice?

1) Why not even one reminder to not answer your phone on G days, let alone volunteer to work one?

2) Why not remind mainline folks, who joined prior to 2002(?), that not only are they NOT required to fly the freighter, but that it hurts the ENTIRE pilot group's leaverage when they do so.

These two item are not combative/militant whatsoever, they represent nothing more than adhering to our COS.

[whodunnit2]

This from the African Forum:
Yep I heard the same..as SAA starts to phase them out then Oasis will start taking them over. This will mean Oasis' fleet will move to 11 747-400's and the simulator is also going to HKG as well!

Thought CX might grab these. Guess it's true that we don't have the crews. The fact that almost everyone I know is in overtime every month is another clue!
W2

[SIC]

ULRequalsSLeep
You just made my day!!!!!
What a sense of humour!
So happy to finally see someone positive. I guess when all hope is lost there is always self deception!!

[slapfaan]

From Wombatatico

"Why is the AOA being so damn nice?

1) Why not even one reminder to not answer your phone on G days, let alone volunteer to work one?

2) Why not remind mainline folks, who joined prior to 2002(?), that not only are they NOT required to fly the freighter, but that it hurts the ENTIRE pilot group's leaverage when they do so."

Mate,

Your wonderfull AOA is nothing but a SPINELESS,USELESS,PATHETIC wannabee negotioting team run by CX management..

Can't believe there are actually still guys out there who support them!!What a joke...wake up ladies,get a grip on your situational awareness...

[Fenwicksgirl]

Hey slappa, although i do in part agree about the ineffectiveness(by the way, they can only be as good as their membership is) of the AOA i do feel the boys there are doing their level best. I have always viewed things as not what the AOA can do for us but what they prevent the company getting away with.
I believe NR and the others have already been given their figure to work with and it is now up to them to screw it down as much as possible, hoping we will accept less. Now a little birdie has told me NR is very frustrated with the way things are going, roadblocks etc, this would indicate to me that the AOA are doing at least something.
Ulitmately 2 factors are going to drive this figure.
1. The cost involved in losing freighter jocks and trying to get us to fly frieght a/c.
2. The cost required to attract new joiners, not at critical levels yet but then we havent even started with the real recruiting push yet!!!

Of course there are the threats of losing younger pilots to their domicile airlines but i feel Cathay wont bother about this until it really happens, after all, since when have pilots had the balls to vote with their feet??
Age 65 will help, but most soon to be retirees are A scale and CX arent in a rush to keep them.
So as far as the AOA are concerned, until you are all happy to individually neg your contract with NR, then i think we really do need them!!

[slapfaan]

The age 65 vote is coming soon,and 1 of 2 things will happen:

1) The age 65 vote passes and the AOA loses 50% of members who are NOT happy with this,especially FO's who's command WILL be pushed back by a few years;

2) The age 65 vote does not pass and the AOA loses 50% of it's members,mainly captains who wanted to work until they drop dead..

Either way..the AOA is screwed..EXACTLY what CX wants!!A weak membership not even representing 25% of the pilot body..the rest of what will happen speaks for itself..

You have NO idea as to what a union is..I'll tell you: It's a body who represents it's members and who has negotiating and bargaining powers.It's a body who DEMANDS certain conditions and pay-rises..and who embarks on a massive strike UNTIL their demands are met...that sir..is a union...

The AOA doesn't even come close to this definition,because it's run by a bunch of girl scouts,voted for by YOU!!!

Let the circus continue...!!!!:D

[BusyB]

slapfaan,

Your total naivety when condemming a Union who are trying to represent expatriates working for a company based in HKG is really quite entertaining (a bit like watching a child with his first jigsaw puzzle). The AOA does its best to negotiate using logic and practicalities to prevent the worst of CX's draconian efforts with a certain amount of success (not a huge amount I grant you). The more support it has the more attention will be given to it.:=

The age 65 item is irrelevant to the AOA, legislation will force it in eventually so do you want a negotiated transition or wham, bang and in?:ugh:

Yours is not a definition of a Union, its a description of some Unions in some countries. Name me one Union in HKG like that.:confused:

[cpdude]

slapfaan,

Firstly, your assumptions concerning the demographics of the AOA are wrong.

Apparently you have no idea what the AOA is! It's an association and not a union although often it is incorrectly referred to as one. It is a voice and not a real force to be dealt with. It's all we have and it's limited strength or weakness is indicative of it's members unity. IE. it has no strength thanks to people like you! So, you're either part of the solution or just part of the problem!

My take is if you are NOT in the AOA then you are hypocritical if you complain about conditions.

[newbie1972]

Wrong BusyB.

Grandfather rights will stop CX from enforcing new legislation on already current contracts.

[BusyB]

Newbie,
I don't think you're right. Both Balpa and AOA have taken advice on the Age Discrimination Legislation and despite it possibly having to go to court in a test case it seems to hold good. BA have immediately changed their contractual retirement age so they didn't think they would win.

In France Ryanair and Easyjet have had a court rule that they must follow local employment laws.

HKG hasn't yet got this legislation so I suppose you could have a retirement age of 55 for HKG based pilots and 65 for based ones!! That would cause some havoc,:}

[404 Titan]

newbie1972

Wrong. Under contract law, the terms of a contract can be made null and void by a change in government legislation. And when the law does change it won’t be CX forcing anything. It will be the SAR government forcing CX to comply with the law.

[Fenwicksgirl]

Slappa. If our membership is made up of people like the ones you talk about then no wonder we are introuble and no wonder the AOA have been in your eyes inneffective. I know there will be people like the ones you talk about, however these are the same people who wont lift a finger to help. The AOA know this and hence their limited ability to give a call to arms, even less ability to go to the company demanding things!!!

As for 65. If they implement it, they have to keep paying the salaries, ie A scales...they dont want that, otherwise they would have done it by now!! They will be trying for a reduction in A scales beyond 55!!

[Kitsune]

For all those bleating and blarting about how tewwibwy tewibbwy difficult it is for us poor aircrew to form an effective association/union/knitting circle against those absolutely HOWWID colonial swire people perhaps we could look to....THE FLIGHT ATTENDANTS UNION whose leadership and membership have more balls than any of us wotaboutthemortgageindiscobay/thekidsatschool/thehouseinthephillipines gutless wonders will ever have.....:yuk::yuk::yuk:

[badairsucker]

Kit,

:D:D:D:D:D:D

[slapfaan]

I AGREE!!!

The best man for the job is...A WOMAN!!!

:ok:

[Rice Pudding]

"The reality is that when airlines are short of pilots they may be tempted to roster their pilots up to the maximum flight time allowed by regulations," Ewers said. "Naturally, fatigue may then become an element."
Pilot shortage may be affecting flight safety
By Slobodan Lekic
The Associated Press
BRUSSELS, Belgium — As the Garuda Indonesia Boeing 737 approached Yogyakarta's main airport, veteran Capt. Marwoto Komar instructed his rookie co-pilot to extend the flaps to slow the plane for landing.
Seconds later, the Boeing slammed into the runway at double the normal landing speed, careened into a rice paddy and caught fire — killing 21 people. Initial findings from the probe into the March 7 crash suggest a misunderstanding between the pilot and his first officer may have contributed to the crash.
Analysts say such apparent miscues are a troubling sign that a worldwide shortage of experienced pilots is starting to affect flight safety.
The shortage is the result of extraordinary air traffic growth in the Persian Gulf, China and India; the rise of lucrative low-cost carriers in Europe and Asia; and the sustained recovery of the U.S. airlines from the industry recession caused by the Sept. 11 attacks.
"There is a giant sucking sound, luring pilots to rapidly expanding airlines such as Emirates and Qatar and the budget carriers," said William Voss, head of the Flight Safety Foundation. When experienced pilots leave developing countries in Asia and Africa for the Gulf, those countries must hire replacements fresh out of flight school, he said.
And poaching of pilots and mechanics is expected to intensify as Asian markets like China and India burgeon.
Around Asia, flyers from national airlines such as Garuda have deserted for better paying jobs with new and successful budget carriers, such as Malaysia's AirAsia. In Europe, Belgium's largest carrier Brussels Airlines recently complained of losing an average of 10 captains a month to pilot-hungry airlines in the Gulf, and have requested government intervention.
In the United States, where thousands of veterans were laid off after Sept. 11 and left the industry, regional carriers have been giving jobs to first officers with considerably less experience than would have been required 15 years ago.
At some airlines, such as Northwest Airlines, pilot shortages have led to record-breaking flight cancellations in recent months. In the last full week of June, it canceled about 1,200 flights, or about 12 percent of its flight schedule, because it could not provide sufficient pilots to replace those who were grounded after reaching maximum allowed hours.
After that, the airline said it would continue recalling all of its furloughed pilots and hire additional pilots.
Figures released by International Air Transport Association show that global air travel will likely grow 4 to 5 percent a year over the next decade, though the aviation boom in India and China is expected to exceed 7 percent.
The Persian Gulf, the fastest growing region for both passengers and cargo, registered growth of 15.4 and 16.1 percent respectively in 2006. Reflecting this expansion, in the first half of this year Boeing and Airbus received a joint total of 1,100 new orders.
advertising
"Airlines such as Emirates, Qatar or Etihad are getting a new Airbus 330 or Boeing 777 each month, which means they also need to take in pilots at a phenomenal rate," said Gideon Ewers, a spokesman for the London-based, 105,000-member International Association of Airline Pilots Associations (IFALPA).
India and China alone will need about 4,000 new pilots a year to cope with their growth — the same number now employed by Germany's Lufthansa. Airlines need 30 highly trained pilots available on average for each long-haul aircraft in their fleet, or 10 to 18 for short-haul planes.
Traditionally, new pilots come up through flight training academies with a strict regimen of classroom training and 50 to 60 hours flying for a Private Pilots License. It takes another 250 hours flying plus a battery of tests for a Commercial Pilots License, which allows the pilot to fly on instruments, rather than only visually, and on airliners with more than one engine. A total of 1,500 hours of flight time are required for a license to co-pilot a commercial jet.
According to the latest available figures, there are 1.2 million pilots worldwide, but just 14 percent have the professional Airline Transport Pilots License.
Paradoxically, flight schools now complain they are understaffed as instructors get hired by regional carriers who have lost pilots to expanding airlines.
In an effort to retain experienced pilots, aviation authorities in some nations — including the United States — are considering extending the mandatory retirement age from 60 to 65 years.
"It makes no sense to force experienced, qualified and healthy pilots to retire while airlines are scrambling to fill those seats," Voss said.
Other airlines and government regulators plan to moderate their standards, allowing new graduates to co-pilot with experienced captains. But this places greater stress on the command pilot who must fly multiple segments while monitoring a copilot's performance.
"The reality is that when airlines are short of pilots they may be tempted to roster their pilots up to the maximum flight time allowed by regulations," Ewers said. "Naturally, fatigue may then become an element."
The London-based International Airline Passengers Association said in a statement it cannot tolerate lowering safety standards and is campaigning for global safety regulation so all airlines meet the same criteria.
The critical shortfall has led the Montreal-based International Civil Aviation Organization to introduce a shortcut — the Multi-Crew Pilot License — where a trainee, supervised by a pilot and co-pilot, will fly a wide-bodied jet within 45 weeks, about what it takes to obtain a driving license in most European countries.
Some pilots' associations have expressed concern that such quick-fix training schemes, where candidates don't accrue any solo flying, ignore the broader safety issues.
"Although all airline pilots are trained to the same standards ... there are certain intangibles that only come from experience," said Patrick Smith, a U.S.-based airline pilot and aviation writer. "The idea of some kid flying a 737 around Africa with 300 hours of total time is a bit scary."
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003794467_webpilotshortaage18.html

[ChairmanBoysClub]

Me, I am curious. Now, what is it that the FAU have achived lately?:ooh:

[ULRequalsSLEEP]

I think you are all terribly pessimistic.

This pay deal has to cover us for losses since the last payrise in Jul01. If it is a 2 year deal, it will need to cover us from Jul 01 - Jul 09. That is an 8 year period.

We should reasonably expect recompense for inflation and exchange rate losses. That would lead to a 30-40% payrise.

And of course if they want to introduce a later retirement age, then they will have to recompense all the FOs and SOs for the career loss of earnings when they reach 55. I am sure they will look after the career path and career earnings losses due to CX's desire to have RA60/65.

Who knows, they may decide to upgrade the increments for CNs from less than 2% to 3% like Emirates do. A mate of mine in CX is on $98K per month and he has been here for 11 years. An EK mate has been there 11 years and he gets $105K(HKD) tax free. SO he earns more than the CX friend before tax, after tax he earns $20K a month more than the equivalent CX CN. ANd because of EK 3% increments, the EK guy's earninigs accelerates away from our CX friend!

So all around, there should be money flying everywhere. They will be very concerned with the effects of DEFOs on SOs, they will be concerned with career earnings potential for FOs and SOs due to higher RA.

[cpdude]

Where do you buy your rose colored glasses from ULR?

Don't get me wrong...I hope you're right but history tells me you're wrong!:eek:

[badairsucker]

Can you really see this company giving us a good pay rise!!!!!


I don't think so..........:= For gods sake, they haven't even given us a pay rise since 2001.

[ChairmanBoysClub]

We shall all get what the market tells us we should get!!. Unfortunately we pilots at Cathay are still paid well when compaired to the other airlines around us. It is not a bad package we are on. I dont think we will get a payrise - though I do belive we deserve it, but thats just not a good enough reason and it does not work well when presented in negotiations. No, if you want a payrise you got to go and get that yourself - leave for somewhere, where you can actually get a payrise. Now where would that be? EK - starting a the bottom of the list!!?? haha.. Makes me laugh.. :D

[sizematters]

chairman - sounding a bit like a third floor plant there dear boy !!! actually Emirates are offering Direct Entry Captain .................so no waiting at the bottom of the list, also you can work till 65 and get an increment every year rather than being stripped of provvy contribution etc etc after 55 so for anyone approaching 55 looks like a pretty good deal rather than transfer to the joys of freighter flying..........................

Also, Oasis will be taking more DEC's shortly ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I certainly can't see an improvement on A scale coming but if they don't do something for B and an awful lot for the freighter.........................who is going to fly all those nice new aerplanes?? forget that, who is going to fly all the ones they have now???

[ChairmanBoysClub]

Nick is sleeping just fine these days. We will never wake up to see any Cathay aeroplanes parked due to any kind of shortage. If you think otherwise - you shall be educated. Happy overtime flying - until that gets changed like its being done over at KA.

[newbie1972]

Well, with the 15% (or more) productivity improvement CX has gotten out of the pilots since the new rostering practices were brought in, anything less than a 15% payrise is a win for CX. I take it the union has looked at those figures to see whether the average increase is in fact 15% (or more)????

Have they communicated these figures to you? Or are they working on rumours and hearsay to hint at a pathetic payrise (expectation management)????

[Mr. Bloggs]

Look back in the DFO updates or in CX World. He has been quoted, if my memory is correct, there have been approximately 20-25% productivity in the passenger and just short of 50% on the freighter increase in productivity due to rostering practices, all due to 5-4-3 rule gone, free reserve, FDP not starting after 4 hours on reserve, and whatever in the hell else you guys gave away. I know I surely didn’t.

Damn, most of the CX pilots are idiots. Lucky if we get a 2% pay rise and there will be increase productivity for that increase by more than 2%. They want 65 RA, merged F/O pay scale, freighter flying for all on the crappy freighter rostering practices. This group is absolutely ridiculous, the pilots I mean.

Mean while every one still answers the phone on G days or whatever. Captains are the worst. How many still fly the freighter? If I were a Freighter Pilot, I would definitely be pissed off if I seen a mainline Capt. flying the freighter or an F/O that did not have to. Taking away my pay rise. If anyone deserves a payrise the freighter guys do.

How many got on ND’s case for not accepting A Scale for all Captains? Because it was not there!!! Ask NR is he willing to give that now. I think not.

Good luck with it, you will need it. Pussies.:=

[ULRequalsSLEEP]

Cpdude, I use sarcasm liberally! I expect diddly squat. We deserve huge increases just to recover from inflation and exchange rates but since people aren't leaving they will just ignore our whingeing and what we deserve.

In 1994 Clemmow wrote that since much of our salary went back to our home country, we couldn't expect payrises based on HKG inflation. At the time Anglosaxon inflation was low. Now we are being told that we shouldn't expect a payrise just because inflation is high in our home countries! Its OK for the DFO, he has currency protection in his PF fund. We don't!

CBC - we are better than some, but way behind most of the majors now. BA have averaged payrises of 4%+ a year for years. EK has achieved 41% payrises over the last 5 years. QF have had smaller 3% rises but have improved other CoS items like min daily credit of 5 1/2 hours and higher min guaranteed hours.

We are most definitely slipping. Until a year ago I used to recommend CX. I don't anymore.

By the way CBC, starting at EK now as an FO you will get $56K(HKD) a month tax free starting salary. Allowing for tax, within 3 years you are earning CX SFO 1 level. When you get your command there you earn more than a CN in CX and becuase EK have 3% increments(CX1.8%), the pay differential gets bigger as time goes on.

QF have just announced massive order of 787s. If RA60 comes in, commands will be delayed to QF time spans. May as well tell newbies to take the safer option.If you want $$$ and quick command, EK. If you want to earn more than CX but live in your home country(oz) and don't mind that command will be 12-14 years, QF is the go.

[whodunnit2]

To reinforce Mini coopers sentiments that you need to make money from property to make CX attractive these days.

This from a Pilots Direct advert on this site ("tax free" according to the advert):,
Captain (Airbus 319/320/A321/A330/A340)
$13,738 / month plus benefits and allowances
Requirements: Total minimum hours 6000 (airline time) with at least 2000 hours of jet command.
Valid ICAO license.
Below 57 years of age for type rated applicants.
Permanent positions
Salary $13,738/month Transportation$ 412/month Utility Bills$ 192/month Furniture (One off payment when joining) $ 13,737 Schooling(Annual total for up to 3 children till the age of 21 years) $ 13,737/year Flying allowance$ 33/hour Down route allowance Dependent on destination and paid on a daily basis Medical Insurance:for pilot and family (excludes dental). Staff travel: Full staff travel privileges on all networks for employee and family. Leave ticket:100% free , once a year for employee and family I.e. spouse and children (maximum of three children up to the age of 18 years). First class for Captains and business class for First Officers. On client airline's network. Leave entitlement: 45 days per year on full pay. Medical insurance:Full cover for employee and family in accordance with the rules of the insurer (excludes dental and optical). Monthly hours: 60-80 block hours on average with sector length varying between 45 minutes and 5 hrs 40 minutes (typical A320 rosters). Down route accommodation: 5 star hotel accommodation.
AND for the F/O's
First Officer(Airbus 319/320/A321/A330/A340)
$10,990/month Senior First Officer plus benefits and allowances
Requirements: Total minimum hours 1000 (airline time) or 500 hours if Airbus 319/320/321/330/340 rated.
Valid ICAO ATPL or frozen ICAO ATPL.
Below 45 years of age for type rated applicants.
Permanent positions
Salary $10,990/month ( $10,440/month First Officer) Transportation$ 412/month Utility Bills$ 192/month Furniture (One off payment when joining) $ 13,737 Schooling(Annual total for up to 3 children till the age of 21 years) $ 13,737/year Flying allowance $ 25/hour Down route allowance Dependent on destination and paid on a daily basis Medical Insurance:for pilot and family (excludes dental). Staff travel: Full staff travel privileges on all networks for employee and family. Leave ticket: 100% free , once a year for employee and family i.e. spouse and children (maximum of three children up to the age of 18 years). First class for Captains and business class for First Officers. On client airline's network. Leave entitlement: 45 days per year on full pay. Medical insurance:Full cover for employee and family in accordance with the rules of the insurer (excludes dental and optical). Monthly hours: 60-80 block hours on average with sector length varying between 45 minutes and 5 hrs 40 minutes (typical A320 rosters). Down route accommodation: 5 star hotel accommodation
W2

[CYRILJGROOVE]

Mr Bloggs said
"Captains are the worst. How many still fly the freighter? If I were a Freighter Pilot, I would definitely be pissed off if I seen a mainline Capt. flying the freighter or an F/O that did not have to. Taking away my pay rise. If anyone deserves a payrise the freighter guys do."

That has got to be the biggest crock of sh@t I have read for years. TAKE AWAY MY PAY RISE What a lot of rubbish!! The Freighter Captains get commands in 2 years...Why? because they seriously bypass the seniority system by about 7-8 years, they willingly do it and are not forced to. If they wanted to they could wait and join the passenger fleet after 3 years and have all of the pay and conditions that goes hand in hand with the Pax COS. Those that accept the early commands, know they are doing it for less than PAX FO pay!! and hardly hold the moral high ground in the "who's screwing who" stakes.

In fact the Freighter crew joining the airline and accepting the poor pay has for years cheesed me off, it delayed my command 5 years, took away 5 years of command pay and increments and, not only have we not had a pay rise for 13 or so years we have had pay cuts!. Why because some guys accept the fast commands for crappy pay! and then have the audacity to complain about it and blame the PAX guys.....un blooody believable!!!

If I see a PAX crew member flying a freighter it makes me warm and fuzzy because it confirms to me that Cathay can afford to pay A scale to fly the freighter (and to all of their Capts). There is something like 30 PAX Capts rostered for full freighter rosters this month plus many with freighter flights. The airline is not bleeding to death because of it.

Basically ASL. Cathay Freighters, has been a complete disaster, it has done a complete 360 and ended up with PAX pilots propping it up because as the pilots told CX in 94 ish when it was "invented" it was just going to be training system for 747 endorsements for folks who would take the early command and run. Regretably it has also turned pilot against pilot, just as was predicted when ASL started. I would love to know the total cost of all of the endorsments of those who have failed or resigned over the years, the costs of running separate management teams, all the ill feeling etc etc if it was worth it financially?. Cathays reputation has not exactly been enhanced because of the freighter debacle.

I certainly would have no guilt about flying the freighter if I were on the 744, A scalers flew the freighters 18 years ago and as I said CX can still afford to, and are paying A scale rates to keep the freighters flying right now.

One thing for sure....I am glad I don't have to sort out the mess that Capt O created.

CHEESED CYRIL

[christn]

I understand BA have 5.2% backdated to February!

[Mr. Bloggs]

Two different philosophies on freighter flying.

We all know CX can afford to pay A Scale on the pax and the freighter, but they are not. Just because they can afford it, they will not do it, until they are forced. For example, the B scale Training Captains would not upgrade to STC, so the P-fund contributions went up to 20%. Now we have many STC upgrades.

Me figures if none of these 30 mainline pilots flew the freighter, well the company would have to pay the freighter pilots more, but that is not going to happen is it. If the pax pilots would stop flying it, you may see the freighter flying come back into the fold and you could get your command on mainline pay. If the freighter flying would come back to the fold, we could have B Scale for all F/O’s (pax and freighter), not on this new merged F/O freighter scale they will try to vote through. I am assuming they will introduce a merged Capt’s salary with the merged F/O salary.

You see, if they don’t have the proper amount of pilots for the freighter division, they lose a huge amount of flexibility. If they don’t have this flexibility, they could not crew all the flights (your 30 pilots). What is one to do? CX could bring it back into the fold because they need this flexibility (on better salary, RP and conditions) or CX can get 30 or so pilots to fly until CX/AOA put some clause in our contract. They are now trying to figure out how they are going to get you to fly the freighter for less and it will most likely happen whether you are a mainline pilot or not.

These plots will just prop it up long enough for CX to fix THEIR problem and WE pay for it, no reason to throw money at it, only the small amount we pay the mainline pilots.

I can see at negotiations, all pilots will fly the freighter and will receive freighter pay when doing so, but you will receive a 2% increase in mainline pay for doing so.

Just stop flying the freighter so the negotiation team can have some leverage, but everyone must look after number one, yes.

The freighter pilots are not helping their cause by any means. Record amount of disruption and many continue to go into discretion, according to NR updates. I ask myself why? They have terrible rosters and RP, paid the least, PX’ing all over the world in economy. I can’t understand why they do it.

The freighter pilots can not understand why they don’t get a pay rise or better rosters, but I guess that is why they are freighter pilots.:}

One thing you and I agree on is that these guys getting early commands are not helping but we all had the opportunity to take these positions and the most senior guy got it. I can only assume they had enough of HK. Win/Win for CX. Paid less on a base.

Now if we only stopped pilots coming on B-Scale……………………………………:ok:

[kmagyoyo]

Hey Mr Bloggs, whats the go with the merged F/O pay scale you mentioned? I thought that had been voted down with RP07? Has it made a reappearance in the negotiations and if so is it retrospective ie will based Pax Pilots find themselves on Freighter pay one morning???

[Loopdeloop]

The company have stated that one of the things they want to achieve is a combined payscale for F/O's, but obviously it was voted down the first time as it resulted in a paycut for most. Perhaps if they try one which results in a significant payrise for most then it might get through this time.
No, I'm not holding my breath.....but I am updating my CV.

[Mr. Bloggs]

NR will have a hard time justifying why one pilot in JFK will be hired on the 777 on DEFO mainline pay and another pilot being hired on the 744F out of JFK as DEFO with different pay scales or conditions of service. You bet ya it is being revisited.

As you know being voted down once means nothing with the CX pilots. Same will happen with the LON, AMS, CDG, LAX, SFO and any other place CX has a pax/freighter service.

There are many F/O slots in AUS, NA and EUR for DEFO’s. NR is having a hard time justifying why one of these positions is paid so little.

What will happen is it will be contained in the whole of the COS in where some will receive a pay rise (2%) but in order to accept that 2% there will have to be a F/O merged pay scale ( the poison seed in the cake if you will).

It does not affect the Captains or Senior First Officers, so why not vote for it, it does affect them and they get 2% out of it, the mainline DEFO’s will receive a pay cut but it does not affect the majority of CX pilots, so it will most likely be voted through. :=

Does B Scale sound familiar…………………………….. Did not affect A Scalers in 94 because they got an 8% pay rise for it. Now they can’t figure out why their conditions are going south.:ugh:

So a long answer to a short question, yes it is being revisited.:ok:

[Loopdeloop]

86.8% voted against it last time so I think some significant improvements will have to be made in order to get it through again this time. This is a very different matter to the RP07 revote (RP07 had more votes for than against the first time so was very close in the first place).
The first DEFO proposal also had no effect on the senior guys, just reduced pay, terms and conditions for the new joiners and junior bods but was still voted down as the pilot body here will no longer accept the thin end of the wedge being driven in by reduced conditions for new joiners, I hope!

[Mr. Bloggs]

Just read the AOA update and it will not be just about pay but a COS package. Trust me, this will contain many poison seeds but depends on who it will affect more. There will be a merged F/O pay scale because Captains and Senior First Officers will vote for it because it doe not affect them and they get a pay rise. It’s going to happen. One must think of ones self first, it’s the CX way. Most can’t see how it will affect the future.

I like this quote “In consideration of all this there is still the overriding fact of what our paymasters are prepared to pay.” Just because they can afford to pay A Scale they will not. They don’t have a need to. The freighter ops is working fine and not many pilots leaving, so why pay more? If pilots would stop going above and beyond the call of duty that could change but that is not going to happen is it. CX do not pay unless they are forced to and they are not forced to.

Not sure if the AOA has a choice but increased retirement age is inevitable. Too bad for the younger pilots.

Now from the DFO:

1) a review of market forces and CX pay scales in HKG and the various Base Areas, 2) a review of retirement age - made more topical by the more stringent legal obligations in the Base Areas, 3) a second opportunity for ASL/ABL crew to join the CX seniority list (which was always the plan if CX retirement age was to increase to age 60 or beyond) and 4) an attempt to seek the AOA's support for a unified pay scale for Passenger and Freighter F/Os on bases (the "DEFO" scale). Next week will hopefully see final proposals from each side and, with any luck, an agreement to be put forward to the AOA membership for a vote later in the summer.

On todays show the top 4 reasons why the CX pilots COS are in danger:

Item 4 from the DFO; here comes you merged pay scale, the poison seed. Lets try again:}

Item 3 from the DFO; just so you know when the last ASL pilots either leaves or is integrated into CX, the Cathay freighter agreement is no longer in effect. Everyone will have to fly the freighter, the poison seed. All those ASL Captains will be operating the 744 pax aircraft therefore taking commands/Bases away from mainline pilots, again the poison seed.:ouch:

Item 2 Retirement Age, if it is “more stringent legal obligations in the Base Areas” and it is inevitable, why are they negotiating it? Why just implement it like they usually do.

And the number one item on today’s show is Pay: You get paid more than Royal Nepal Airways.:}

The whole COS vote will have many poison seeds contained within it. Good luck on your vote and your future.:ok:

[rhoshamboe]

I love the guys that volunteer to fly the freighter and them b*itch about getting jerked around....

[Bwatchful]

Welcome aboard sonny. You will be employed by CX primarily to fly nice shiny new wide body passenger aircraft. However, we also fly freighter aircraft as well and ................ under a working “Freighter Aircraft Crewing Agreement”, passenger crew can agree to fly these aircraft with other passenger crew or with freighter crew (referred to as “mixed crew flying”) if and when required (by the company). If you want this job, and we know you do, your signature at the bottom of this letter represents notification that you are willing to take part in such freighter operations if necessary. However, this will not affect your salary or benefits.

[bobrun]

What are the views on retirement at 60 or 65?
There seems to be a lot of talk about pay rise and DEFO, but not so much about retirement even though it will have a major impact on career progression.

If the time to command is at about 10 years now, it will possibly be up to 15-20 years in the future. Considering the extra number of years spent as F/O, this more than negates any financial benefits coming from a pay rise. It will have a significant financial impact for any officers below CN in terms of lost revenue. Moreover, F/O reaching the top of the F/O pay scale won’t get any annual pay increments until going for their command, which could be several years away.

The expansion may help alleviate the negative impact of RA60/55, but not significantly. And once the expansion is over and we’ve received all our new aircrafts (in 2-3 yrs only I believe), upgrades will come to a stop as no one will be retiring for another amount of years.

:confused:

[Numero Crunchero]

Mr Bloggs,
we did not vote in B scales for a 8% pay rise in 1994. We accepted degraded rostering practices and the loss of 2 weeks leave for that 8%.
B scales were introduced on 1 April 1993. We A scalers did nothing to stop it. We never got a payrise for it though.

New FO scales will not cause a paycut to current employees just like B scales did not cause a pay cut to A scales.

bobrun,
at current growth rates a brand new joiner today could expect up to 4 years delay. That assumes every CN extends past 55 and no loss of medicals, death etc.
CX often state that they will grow faster if we had RA65. The rate required to absorb all the 55+ year olds is not really likely. We have 102 aircraft at end of 2006. At end of 2011 we would need around 175 a/c to absorb the 55+ guys, or we would have 139 if we remain on current growth rate.
IN recent history we have roughly 50% command courses for replacement of retirees.

Assuming an accelerated, but realistic growth rate, I would suggest that a new joiner might be delayed around 2 years. Obviously an FO due to start command in Jan08 won't be affected at all, delay wise, so pro rata it in between.

Under that assumption of accelerated growth rate, a new joiner would suffer 1 years loss of earnings, NPV wise, assuming he gets bypass pay and 2-3years if he doesn;t get bypass pay. But the counter argument to that is that he can work another 10 years. You be the judge as to whether that is a 'win' or not.

Clear as mud!?

[Glass Half Empty]

"All those ASL Captains will be operating the 744 pax aircraft therefore taking commands/Bases away from mainline pilots, again the poison seed.:ouch:"

Can't see it happpening, more likely they will operate the 744F as VETA until their seniority number reaches the level for a pax command. That is assuming they come in at the bottom of the list.

[555orange]

All the details and reading on this thread...my opinion is that we need to work on our SOLIDARITY to ensure that the company treats us with respect. I know we lost alot during our last "standoff", but we really need to get back to firm footing when it comes to common goals. I think the biggest thing we need to work on is getting people to join the "association", and when the no's increase, perhaps we can call it a Union. If we had the power to get everyone to walk off the job at one time.....we would be treated with respect. This job is not what it used to be...and the job market is very good right now...so maybe guys would be more willing to stand stronger these days. We cant do it overnight, but I think its something that we can move in this direction to help make some progress! I for one would be willing to risk my job here to make sure we get treated with more respect. I know I can go to several other very good airlines at a moments notice and hardly make much of a lifestyle change and the same goes for everyone. The guys we need to protect the most however are the ones in the sweet spot....those are the once waiting for command shortly. Any thoughts?? Mister chairmanboysclub wannabe can eat his own shorts! We will always be the cornerstone of this airline..and I can tell it bugs him!

[Mr. Bloggs]

NC, If B Scales were not around would CX have come after you like they did in ’99 (sign or be fired and you have two weeks to think about it)? Foolishly the B scales got caught up in it and that was a huge mistake. I know most signed within the first two days after that “Critical Mass” thingy, if it took that long.:=

Don’t think we need lower pay scales in the company for new joiners even if it does not affect me. We have a DEFO pay scale at this time, the company should adhere to it.

Same with this freighter stuff. They made their bed in 96 with the creation of ASL, now they want ASL in CX. Well they made that bed, so live with it. I particularly don’t want to fly the freighter on those Rostering practices. We may have a chance to change that if we all thought collectively, but what am I thinking?:ugh:

Do you think it is wise to accept an 8% pay increase now for everything NR wants? I realize 8% of your salary and my salary is not even close. Would you do the same thing today that you did in ’94? I think I know that answer. Would you rather have better rostering and 2 more weeks leave? Look at the mess with rostering since ’94.

I do know how the vote is going to go and I ask myself why I even bother. First COS rejected, second COS is worse than the first, so the first one is voted in out of fear.

Our COS has been getting worse since I joined. The COS seems to change every couple of years and it is not for the better i.e. higher taxes on housing, lower medical, RP 01-04-07, etc. But I do get to request 5 days off in a row with 80 days notice, big win.:D

Seems the pilots at CX cannot see the forest for the trees and will vote for whatever is put in front of them. Sometimes not the first time, but what NR wants usually gets in. He should be at least a committee member, think there is one spot open for him. Man he knows how to play this group.:ouch:

So the AOA wants new joiners in the AOA correct? How can you honestly tell a new joiner to come to the AOA and we will protect your interest, the AOA just recommended a pay cut for new joiners and they will have to stay at least another 4 years or more in the right seat. Hello New Joiner, I’m Mr. AOA. We just lowered your pay scale and you have to sit in the right seat longer, please join us, we will protect your future.:E

Your argument on bypass pay is a joke, CX is playing that one. Pilots are not assessed until the very end and may get a week of bypass pay if they are lucky. It is not a factor.

NC, I love this one “CX often state that they will grow faster if we had RA65”. Do you really believe them? Of course they are going to say that, they want to grow at our cost not theirs. They can source out training to Boeing, Alteon or other airlines. Mr. Boeing will supply training with these new 777-300ER’s and this is being looked into. Cheaper to have pilots after 55 on lower conditions and these retreads accept it.:=

Can’t say that I agree with your numbers, but I guess that is why I became a pilot.

GHE, you are correct if they come in at the bottom of the list. You have to ask yourself why does NR wants ASL on Veta? The reason why; the freighter agreement is now null and void, it will be deleted from your COS, so everyone will have to fly the freighter. It could make life very miserable for blokes sitting on bases that have freighter flights LHR, AMS, FRA, CDG, SFO, LAX, etc but then again it does not affect other pilots so it will be voted FOR. I don’t understand why pilots would want to vote for this but then again, it doesn’t affect me attitude arises.]

Now instead of doing LHR-HKG-LHR, you will now be PX’ing to CDG, overnight or operate to either Milan, Bombay, Delhi or some other port, overnight, fly to HKG and either hop back to the UK or fly direct OR LAX-SFO-ANC-overnight-ANC-DFW-ATL-overnight-ATL-YYZ-ANC- overnight- ANC-SFO-LAX. Next pairing may be the same or may get a LAX-HKG-overnight-HKG-ANC-overnight-ANC-SFO-LAX or whatever. We all know how creative crew scheduling/crew control can get when they are short.

Much rather do LHR-HKG-LHR or LAX-HKG-LAX but then again freighter flying is interesting flying so I am told.

5-O, if you were here in 99 to 01 you would have seen many pilots talk the talk at meeting but did not come close to walking the walk. Some talked but did the opposite when the numbers came down. I remember many aircraft taking to the sky with those very pilots who were under threat. Pilots that were under direct threat continued to do the job, not much solidarity there but it’s a nice thought.

The only thing that will keep changing here at CX is your COS. But only time will tell if I am correct and we should know in the next couple of months.

[nike]

A guy over on the terms & endearment thread reckons SQ paid him 6 months profit share. That would be nice.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=271434&page=15

Not a bad thread to get an idea of whats being paid around the traps.

[Numero Crunchero]

Mr Bloggs,
In 1999, yes I think they would have come after us even if on one scale. Every dept in CX was told to reduce costs by 20%. Obviously with fixed overheads such as fuel, leasing, route operating costs, the only obvious target was salaries. In 1999, before the hoo haa, I was earning more than any FO in qantas. Now as a CN I earn as much as a 400FO in QF.

I try to be impartial - just quote facts and figures. I am not doing any others a service if I colour these facts and figures with my view. So I try not to state my opinion but I often fail;-/

CX want to end the FACA - the only way to do that is fire or integrate the (approx 40-50)ASL crews. Some ASL guys rejected the chance to come across in 2000 as they were close to 55 and would have been forced to retire. Some didn't come over as they were close to command in ASL and didn't want to have to wait another 9years by joining CX mainline.

If I had my time over I wouldn't have signed the deal in 94. I very much doubt I will ever be offered 8% again being A scale!

Do I really believe they will grow faster? Yes. It makes no sense increasing retirement age and DEFO with resultant bypass pay issues and increasing costs otherwise. This airline is training capacity constrained. If they want to expand faster they can get aircraft from leasing companies.

This might be hard to accept but having a later RA costs CX more per cockpit. WHy? Because in the average cockpit you have higher increment CNs and in the short term, higher increment FOs. Add in bypass pay and the costs skyrocket. An airline that isn't training constrained wants the most junior CNs/FOs possible. The training costs involved wash out in less than 4 years because of the higher increments. Even if conditions were degraded, it is still costlier to have CNs remain after 55.

New joiners
Without the rejection last summer, new DEFOs would be on a much lower package. With AOA involvement hopefully the new deal is a big improvement on what was nearly imposed. There is nothing in our CoS preventing them from employing DEFOs at any time on any base. They just have to pay bypass.

A new joiner can come in 3 ways today. Freighter FO, Pax FO or SO. If they have the experience they will join as an FO. A unified FO scale will ensure that the pilot will be better off financially than if he joined under the current FFO or SO salary. SOs joining in HKG will still be joining on the salary as it exists today.

So any new joiner is better off financially - how has the AOA let him down?

On bypass, why is it a joke? Bypass pay is paid to someone. Currently they pay bypass pay to highest eligible FO and I believe the highest eligible SO for CN extensions. 'Eligible' is where the confusion lies. If you are Cat D or you voluntarily defer a command(like an FO on a base waiting for a CN slot on the base) you are not entitled so bypass pay goes down the seniority list to the next eligible individual. The CoS has no mention of assessment but I may be wrong on that.


Myths:
DEFOs cost time to command and RA65 will accelerate time to command.

Facts:
DEFOs will accelerate time to command for all FO/SOs on the seniority list as this airline is training course constrained. The only ones to suffer are current SOs...and they will receive bypass pay as per the deal last year.
RA65 will slow down command rate. As i said earlier, I do think CX will expand faster in future but not enough to absorb all the extendees. So I would assume a 2+year delay for a brand new SO(11+years).

Housing and other benefits (such as travel fund, education) are now taxed. The IRD is shifting in its interpretation of what is an allowance or non cash allowance. This has been a consistent trend. The AOA has been funding an appeal on the housing interpretation but it appears that IRD interpretation has infact changed and all these benefits are taxable. So it seems the advice CX got from its lawyers was in fact accurate. I know there is pilot whingeing, but does paranoia extend so far as to think an employer really wants every payment/benefit made taxable?

Whatever the deal, vote for it or not on its merits not prejudice or the histrionics of certain PPRUNE posters.

I think people should listen to the advice given by the AOA, CX, colleagues, competitor airline mates, PPRUNE, the DB plaza and then make up their own mind.

[rhoshamboe]

NC,
I think the problem Bloggs has with the AOA committee and the DEFO deal was that they were trying to sell us on how good it was. Fortunately for the first and only time since I've been in the AOA the membership came back with a sensible response.

[Captain TOGA]

555orange,

Do you work for CX?

[bobrun]

Regarding your analysis of the impact of RA60-65: sounds reasonable, if you really believe the expansion will pick-up speed. That would be an optimistic scenario. The reality is that the expansion may remain at the current rate or even slow down with a changing economy, ever increasing competition or whatever unexpected event that may happen in the future (similar to SARS etc). Who can really tell? Any "glitch" in the optimistic scenario and the time to command will increase significantly. Your figure of 4 years delay with RA60 is more likely, and probably 7-8 years with RA65. Under that scenario, "junior" officers will definitely have to work past 55 in order to be able to retire considering the lost revenue arising from a delayed upgrade!
Increasing the retirement age is a significant issue for a large portion of the pilot group and one that could seriously disrupt career progressions. It may be a good deal for the company or senior officers not waiting on an upgrade, but it certainly isn’t good news for the majority. Who would gamble his/her career prospect for a small pay rise or increase in benefits?

[newbie1972]

I can tell you from experience, that if the retirement age is extended to 60 from your current 55, it will delay peoples' promotions by way more than the 2 years mentioned earlier on. Despite the expansion program, I believe the training system limitations and command failure rates will put paid to any 'promises' of no real delays from your managers. Additionally, any shiny new aircraft that are on the order books today may well disappear in a puff of CEO smoke in 6 months time. It is easy to 'dream up' expansion plans to help allay the fears of those sitting on the fence! A certain Southern Hemisphere airline did just that not too long ago...

[555orange]

Capt TOGA,

No I don't. When I reread my post, I see it may seem like I am speaking as such. However I speak as a common colleague as I worked in Asia in the recent past and I work for a company now that has similar problems. So I suppose I feel like I am one of the group, but not one in Cathay. I apologize if it seems like I speak as I am one of "the Cathay boys" as I am not. However I do feel like a colleague and I do feel we all need to band together on our common goals. I enjoyed working in Asia, and I would like to come back after working in N. America again. I came here to educate myself on how the Cathay boys feel...and unfortunately I have let my strong opinions run off. I just hate it when I hear managment types spitting at us when they are supposed to be working with us! In any case, I first thought Cathay was really good right now, but I can see there are some hidden agenda's at play internally, and there is a tough battle with not much Labor law strength for the guys. And unfortunately...as is my nature...I once and awhile start **** disturbing! :ugh:You may or may not see more of me...I will however watch my reference.

[Mr. Bloggs]

You will get an 8% pay increase. It must be worth it. Take one for the company. I am sure many Captains will feel for you. They do have a tendency to think of others but are usually looking in the mirror.

Sorry mates, the CX pilots think as individuals and not as a group and that is the cause of all the attacks. Nothing will change now or in the future.

An Oz based pilot does not give a rat’s ass about a bloke in LHR or his roster. The LHR pilots do not give a rat’s ass about a pilot in LAX (bloody Yanks). A LAX pilot does not give a rat’s ass about a pilot based in Perth. Who cares, it does not affect me. I am willing to screw my fellow pilots and accept a bad deal for them if I can get something out of it and it does not affect me.

Do you really think the Captains think about retirement age? Screw the young blokes. I get an 8% pay rise and I can work for longer. They don’t really care. Do Captains really care if an S/O has to pay $100,000 HKD if his wife has an operation because it is not covered in his/her medical package? I think not, but the Capt is fine, he is on a better package.

That is how it works in CX.

Crew control and scheduling operate with impunity with the sanctions of the GMA and the DFO. They all meet every morning and go over the last days delays. If you did not go above and beyond the call of duty, you will be called to explain. It’s the environment we work in.

Rules are for paper only, they do what they want. It is China.

Pilots will put their license, job and there career on the line for CX. They could be the most tired pilot at the time but when crew control asks you to go above the call of duty (which you are solely accountable), pilots back down and do what crew control wants. Pilots just hope or are ignorant on how they are responsible and CX is isolated because you as a Captain took all the responsibility yourself.

Pilot: I am too tired/fatigued
Crew control: So you are calling in sick.
Pilot: No, I am not sick; I am too tired/ fatigued.
Crew Control: So it’s a missed duty
Pilot: No, I am too tired/fatigued.
Crew Control: But it is legal.
Pilot: Yes I know it is legal, but I am too tired.
Crew Control: Standby, we are calling your Fleet Manager

Let’s just watch on how this next COS is negotiated and how it is recommended and how it is voted on. I will bet my bottom dollar that the pilots of CX will eat their own young if need be.

Pessimistic? No, just an optimist with experience and know how the CX pilots work. It will be interesting.

[Mr. Bloggs]

BTW NC, we will have to agree to disagree but I do not agree with your numbers.:ok:

[badairsucker]

Mr Bloggs,

If I was to reply to this thread I would have written word for word as you have done, well done.:D

[bushcat400]

:mad:
Just had this FWD'd to me:
Dear Colleagues/Friends,
As you are all aware, the Company and the AOA have been in talks over the last 2 months regarding the important issues of Pay, Retirement Age and Direct Entry First Officers. The talks are nearing completion and a proposal is expected to be put forward in early August.
What you may not know, is the seriousness the outcome of these talks and subsequent vote, to the rest of your career at Cathay Pacific.
The company has indicated that there is some money on the table for the pay talks. It’s how they plan to use this money that is of greatest concern. Let me explain by telling you what the likely proposal will contain.
Instantaneous extension of retirement age to 65.
Any extension beyond age 55 will be on current pay scale. Ie A Scalers can work to age 65 on A Scale pay inclusive of yearly increments.
Bypass pay for all officers affected by this extension who remain on COS99
Introduction of COS08 that includes:
Retirement age 65
Waiving of bypass pay until an officer is extended beyond age 65
All new joiners and based crew will have to sign. (CX is claiming that due to local discrimination laws, based crew will be required to be on a contract that doesn’t discriminate against age)
DEFO pay to be introduced to pax and freighter fleets as follows
Yr 1 – Freighter FO 1 pay
Yr 2 – Freighter FO 2 pay
Yr 3 – Freighter FO 3 pay
Yr 4 – Intermediate amount between Freighter FO 3 and Pax SFO 1
Yr 5 – Pax SFO 1 pay
Yr 6 - Pax SFO 2 pay etc etc
An insult of a pay increase, not much more than 5% over the next 2.5 years!
BEWARE - It will be advertised as something different, but if you look closely, its not.
What does this mean to those of us who have not attained the rank of Captain, or are a relatively junior Captain?
Conservative estimates put the Average delay to command at 3-4 years
That’s 3-4 years that you are not earning command pay, and this money (your money) is going toward the funding of extending A scalers on A Scale Pay!
This estimate is if the company continue to expand at the current rate. It will be longer if we have a downturn.
Bypass pay will be paid to those officers who remain on CoS99
however, bypass pay never leaves the Captain Year 1 pay increment (have a look at the difference between SFO Yr 6 pay and Captain Yr 1 pay. There’s not much difference!)
The company has indicated that they have already set aside funds to pay the bypass pay. They need age 65 and are willing to pay bypass pay, which is cheaper that slowing their expansion.
Officers on CoS08 will not be paid bypass pay for over 55 extendees.
If an officer is on Cos08 and at the top of the FO seniority list and there is one extended Captain, then there is no bypass pay paid. If there are 2 Captains extended, and the top FO is on Cos08 and the next FO is on Cos99, then only one lot of bypass pay paid. If there are 3 Captains extended and the third FO is on CoS08, then there is still only one lot of bypass pay paid. So on and so on. Another saving for the company to help fund the A Scalers.
Delayed or non-existent based opportunities
Just think of the number of A scalers who have been planning to retire at 55, and have enough money to do so, now willing to take the pay decrease to take a base. It’s now just pocket money to them. Bases will become somewhere where the senior aircrew go to see out their days, not somewhere you can take your family after upgrading to captain.
How is it possible that this proposal could even be considered by the GC, let alone put to us to vote on?
The GC is not representative of its members or the CX aircrew body. Here is the rough membership breakdown
CX F/O's total - 1050 of which 520 are AOA members
CX Capt's total - 750 of which 425 are AOA members
CX S/O's total - not exactly sure, but slight majority are members
Approx 15 of the 22 GC members are A Scale captains
Only 2 F/O's currently on the GC!
Who stands to benefit from this proposal?
100 of our 1000 odd members (Approx 100 A Scalers are members)
200-300 A Scalers who are non members.
CX. They get to solve their self made problem of not having enough Captains to fulfil their expansion plans
Who stands to lose from this proposal?
YOU!
Including those of you who are NON HKAOA members!! Join Now to vote!
What can we do?
Of course voting NO is an obvious way of showing your disgust at your future being sold down the toilet for a bunch that have had it good for so many years already, at the expense of US, the junior officers.
The chances are, the company will just introduce age 65 anyway, as they have done with the extension of C & T Captains already.
BUT, if we can get everyone to vote and have a say, to show the company and the AOA that the VAST MAJORITY of the aircrew body thinks this PROPOSAL STINKS, then we have more of a chance to deflect this attack on OUR future.
Write to the AOA in mass numbers, demanding that they fight for pay and conditions for the majority of the membership, not just a small few. Demand that they tell the company, in no uncertain terms, that the B scale pilot body is not going to fund the solution to the company’s own mess. It is our future, and we must do everything we can to protect it!
FORWARD THIS EMAIL ON to ALL of your CX F/O and S/O friends and colleagues, members or not.
JOIN THE AOA and VOTE. If you are not a member of the AOA, JOIN NOW. There is still time for you to join and have your say. Don’t look back in a few years time and say “I wish I had of spent a couple of hundred dollars to have my voice heard”. Join now by emailing [email protected]
This is no time for finger pointing and blaming anyone else for what we are about to be presented with. This is a time where we need UNITY. We all have the same objective – TO PROTECT OUR FUTURE.
Please forward this email on to you friends and write to the AOA now at [email protected] demanding they accept nothing less than a fair proposal for all.
Thank you for your time.

[Yeager]

Mr Bloggs,

Mate. You got it all right. Thas IS how it IS! Maybe it was different in the past - unfortunately thats not where we live - we live in the real world as per your description. This company will not give a cent without getting a dollar back. CX are in the money only business and that comes before anything else - anything.

You can see it all coming just by reading the AoA updates on the ongoing "negotiations" - its really sad reading.

Anybody thinking there will be any kind of improvement to the current CoS without the pilot core paying for it themselves and most likely paying more than given - well.. why dont we just wait and see..

[jed_thrust]

...but you're wrong!

I am an A scaler (or used to be at least, when I got paid more than 60% more than a B scaler) and there is NOTHING in the emailed proposal for me!!!

All the pay rises are to the B scalers - all the A scalers get is the right (obligation) to fly the freighter on freighter RPs. Thats it - no pay rise.

I can count very few fellow A scalers who will work beyond 55 ( Im thinking less than 10) May be some more will do a one year extension, but thats it.

This should be a pay rise for everyone! And regardless what you think about the A scale, remmeber that the higher it is, the higher the B scale will go. Whatever has happened to the A scale (ie no pay rise since 94) will eventually happen to the B scale when it is the highest pay scale in CX.

This is a bad proposal, but NOT because it is (supposedly) good for A scalers!

[bushcat400]

Yes...but the crucial point for those near command is this...a 3-4 year delay. And for those of us that have already been here 7-8 years, that would equate to 10-12 years in the right seat (if you joined on the freighter).

Have no intention of hanging around and taking another 3-4 years of crap from the likes of the 400 checking dept! We all know who the tossers are...maybe its time they were named and shamed publicly! :ugh:

[BlunderBus]

had lunch with a cargo captain last week and he was off to anc from hk with two crew..maybe someone should update the FAA

[BlunderBus]

Seems all the boys that jumped on board to operate the freighter when the company was slaughtering guys that had been here nearly 10 years waiting for a command aren't having such a rosy time of it.Didn't seem to bother you when the cx pilots were toe to toe with the company protecting our rights back then..taking command jobs away from pax crews...which resulted in 53 of our guys being summarily executed.Now you're finally getting a taste of what we'd been fighting all along so suck it up!...we told you so!
It's all out on the table now and you've got no right to bitch about pax crews doing anything after the effect your even joining cx at that time had on our f/o's....you're in for a long,hard bat up the bottom...so lube up boys.

[bushcat400]

BlunderBus....remember SARS...you still have a profitable company to work for thanks to the freighter crews :mad: COCK!

[Night Watch]

BlunderBus

What are you doing? Now is a time for unity between all in the pilot group... including freighter blokes!

Together we stand.... divided we fall.

[Freehills]

Settles back with the popcorn... this could be a good'un

[Baywatcher]

Reading all this drivel, no wonder CX divide and conquer!

[sizematters]

looks like handbags at dawn again..........................and CX will be the winners....................you have a vote, and the only vote they will take notice of is if you walk out the door.................

[SIC]

HAPPY ENDING Re your earlier dimwit comment...

Normally I can see sarcasm from far off - but am not so sure of your comment since you only been here from April 07???

Please tell me you are joking.

[ChairmanBoysClub]

Obviously we will be given a pay INcrease. Even management knows that the boat is rocking a bit, and they do pay attention to the fact that a lot of NAM pilots are walking off to greener pastures and even the odd S/O is leaving for other options arising in their old backyard.
What is also obvious from the AoA updates is that nothing comes from nothing. We will pay for the expected pay INcrease by means of supplying the company with the required "here and now" requirement for pilots to man the new ships. For a lot of guys that will mean extra time to upgrade, possibly like some of you have mentioned 3-4 years. But please pay attention to the fact that 3-4 year of extra time to command can quickly turn into 3-10 years if the **** ones again hits the fan. Those of you who do not get command within the next few years will also be the ones to suffer should another sars, birdflue or Asian crises arises, you will simply be cut off.

The company will man those shiny jets - whatever it takes - whatever means they will have to use. Accept it.

[BMM389EC]

You call 5% a pay increase???

[sizematters]

ok lets get real..................increase in hours from 84 to 94 a month is worth 20% for starters.........................

5 years with no pay increase at 3% year is worth 15%

3 man crew to europe...................name your figure

age 65 retirement........................who knows?? too many varying viewpoints if your over 45 it rocks, if your under it sucks

so between 35 1nd 50% pay increase should stop sll those resignation letters that are written from hitting the desks on 3rd floor.............

Signed: Hans Christian Sizematters
(Purveyor of fine fairy tales)

[The Management]

No doubt about it, you will sign!

[CYRILJGROOVE]

Mr Bushcat said
"Of course voting NO is an obvious way of showing your disgust at your future being sold down the toilet for a bunch that have had it good for so many years already, at the expense of US, the junior officers"

Buddy if you are going to sling mud expect some back your way. I am not sure why you are slagging off at A scalers in fact there is another alternative school of thought that has been around for years..... that you junior crew came in, accepted low pay and undermined A scalers and your own careers dramatically. The Freighter crew came in and undermined the B scalers,the DEFOs are undermining the current S/O's rah rah rah blah blah. If you are going to be duped it is will come from CX management not your collegues.

NR must be rubbing his hands with glee, he has got all his pilots in fighting.

I do agree that as many people as possible should join the AOA and have a vote on the proposal, if it is not a reasonable proposal those 100 awful A scalers are hardly going to railroad it thru. I think it is a bit premature to start accusing any one of selling anybody down the toilet without any official proposal in hand.

[Cpt. Underpants]

100 awful A scalers

More like 350 A Scalers

[Mr. Bloggs]

I must have missed something in'99:ok:

[whodunnit2]

Here is an idea : Let's stop throwing mud at each other. Let's face it - we all made decisions along the way thinking that they were the best for us and our families.

Rather, let's channel our frustration and energy in the right direction. The company is the "bad guy" in this story. If the package is no good we say no. OK, maybe we get a sign it or leave deal but somehow I don't think so. The company needs pilots, lots of pilots. It won't be too keen to push more bodies away by being militant.

I hope that the blokes who can leave and said they will, will go if the deal is crap. That is the only language that is understood in this part of the world.

A scale, B scale, DEFO, Freighter, etc, for once lets remember that we are actually on the same team - like it or not.

W2

[sisyphos]

whodunnit is right, unity is the only way to achieve anything here.

[Yeager]

whodunnit2..

Yes, lets hope that the bunch of the guys who have not already left, but have said they would, will leave. Vote with the feet or whatever its called. Sure they might take a bit of a paycut (money money) - but there is so much more to life than money. The sooner you join a company that actually knows how an airline company is supposed to be run and operated in its aspects (and NOT only in making profit), the sooner you will grow your seniority and have fun at the same time, at tha new airline.
You can actually have fun flying - remember :ok:

Happy operating. :D

[404 Titan]

Just found out yesterday two mate are leaving real soon. One took a base late last year and is off to Royal Brunei and the other after just completing his -400 command and taking a London Base is off to Oasis.:ok:

[Fly747]

Titan, what does your mate know that I don't? Why would anyone go to Oasis as an FO after just getting his command? I'm intrigued as to the reason.

[badairsucker]

I have a mate in Dragonair who has just done the same. He is a training captain and has handed in his notice to go to Oasis as a FO.

Reasons,

Had enough of HK.
Boring routes.
****e company.

Fair play, that's what I say.:D

Yes, I know Oasis doesn't have much of a route network but I guess they are up and coming, plus maybe bases in the future.

[Glass Half Empty]

Ah the join as an FO and become a captain next day trick, especially holding a training ticket. Opportunities are there if you have the gonads and believe the promises!

[ULRequalsSLEEP]

After receiving the same email that bushcat posted I decided to have a look for myself at the General Committee makeup.

There are 16 members on the AOA GC according to their website. 8 are A scale CNs and 8 are B scale (6 CNs, 2 FOs).

There are 2 B scale FOs who represent the 1300 plus guys who will be most adversely affected by this deal. There are 14 A and B scale CNs representing the 750 who have the most to gain by this deal. Are any of them due to retire in the next few years? I suspect there is one A scaler on a base and one B scale TC close to retirement. Of the 8 A scale, 7 are based. Do the based guys have anything to lose on this deal? So out of self interest there is likely to be 9 GC members actively pushing this deal and 2 actively opposing it!


Is this GC really in a position to give impartial judgement of this deal?


My advice, get more FOs and SOs into the AOA so that we can reject or accept the deal inspite of the self interested recommendation of the GC.

[SIC]

I honestly couldn't care about a pay increase anymore- its way too late anyway.

What we should be fighting for is an annual scale increment based on inflation!!!!! This will ( stating the obvious ) ensure that our conditions do not deteriorate further and nothing else. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:
Every single decent global company on this planet does that.

[The Management]

We would like to see a 24 hours strike, we still have some people to terminate, ones we missed the last time or some newbies beating their chest. Do you think some will put their provident fund in jeopardy?

Is that the same as the GOLF days where only a 100 or so put their head above the parapet? Out of 2000 pilots you would be fortunate to get 100 to stop working for a day. We knew who those pilots were and took appropriate action.

Most know that we will not hesitate to terminate more pilots. It only takes a few and the rest will fall swiftly into line.

You are dreaming.

How many pilots will be able to pay their mortgages in Hong Kong and in those favorite ski resorts around the world? We can drop by the housing department and have a list of the biggest mortgage holders in Hong Kong.

Many Mangers have been to these many ski resorts and from talking to various pilots we know which ones have several mortgages in these areas. We don’t have a problem terminating these pilots’ contract. We could always hire them back onto the freighters in a couple of months or years on lower conditions. Ha Ha.

So beware and you have been warned.

I would like to use this opportunity to thank the many many pilots who still acknowledge their roster changes in crew direct, answer their phone at home and in the hotel, work on G days, flying the freighter, operating into discretion, support the HKAOA and for generally going above and beyond the call of duty for US.

From the bottom of our bonus, we thank you.

We will offer you a generous pay increase but there are certain items we need from the pilots.

The freighter agreement is too constrictive. We need all pilots to fly the freighter therefore we will be offering the ASL pilots an opportunity to join the Cathay Pilots Seniority List. This will be most beneficial.

We need the Retirement Age to increase and the only way to expand and still save my bonus is to do this. Career progression of pilots is not our concern, making money is. We are sure the most junior pilots understand.

Here’s to my Bonus!

The Management.

[VR-HFX]

404

May I respectfully suggest your two mates (well one in particular) needs his head read.

Royal Brunei is an absolute basket case of an airline. I personally know a couple of guys who were there for many years and ultimately left when it became totally intolerable. They push the envelope more than any other airline with the possible exception of some of our Indonesian friends.

Not only that, I assume that he has gone to work for Rishworth. Double jeopardy.

As to Oasis. Big gonads required. Their cashflow situation is frightening and I am not sure how deep the pockets are. Their seat costs must be at least 1.5 times ours and look what they are charging.

[CYRILJGROOVE]

ULR said
My advice, get more FOs and SOs into the AOA so that we can reject or accept the deal inspite of the self interested recommendation of the GC.

Agree, and a recent update from the President stated there were still not enough volunteers to require an election so it is up to the members to apply.

I certainly disagree that the members join the GC for self interest, most do it as a sense of duty, it has no financial reward. When you consider the company sacked 3% of the workforce but that included a whopping 25% of the GC we should be very grateful for those that still choose to represent us. Instead there a few posters on this website who throw foul insults and accusations at these hard working representatives and attempt to draw all sorts of conclusions from spread of representives.

Based on those assumptions cast by some it could be argued that as there are no females on the GC that all the females in the company are going to be screwed by this new deal.........and thats why we should not vote for it!!!

The opportunity to consider the deal will come shortly as advised by the President. The members will vote on it accordingly after considering all the facts and it will either pass or fail....simple.

[jtr]

The members will vote on it accordingly after considering all the facts and it will either pass or fail....simple

or fail, then get voted on again:hmm:

[ULRequalsSLEEP]

Yes all female pilots will be screwed because none of them are A scale CNs close to retirement. Thanks for helping to make my point Cyril.

I have had friends on the GC. I know they have given up time for the greater good. But in the past all votes have affected the entire membership reasonably equally (arguable on housing vote and 49ers). Point is there was no conflict of interest.

But now we have a deal coming that is to the great advantage of all CNs, particularly A scale, and no benefit to FOs or SOs - and if wombatico/bushcat are to be believed, no bypass pay for based FOs.

The last time I remember a conflict of interest vote was back in 93 or 94 when Tucknott pushed some basing deal...he then rushed off and took the basing, got paid $100K for his troubles.

So I will say again, how can we expect an impartial recommendation from a GC that has 14 people with so much to gain representing 750 people whilst the 1350 with so much to lose have 2 people representing them?

Will the GC A scale CN close to 55 or the GC B scale TC close to 55 reject the deal for the greater good????

[BlunderBus]

just tired of hearing freighter guys whingeing about delayed commands..transfer to the pax fleet...can't live where they want...didn't get the basing they wanted...etc etc...pretty much everything they did to the original cx f/o's when they turned up and took a job when cx was all out screwing the pax boys.

[BlunderBus]

instead of trying to drag the original guys conditions (a-scale) down ...why not suggest moving B-scale upwards???

[BlunderBus]

are you suggesting that the freighter crews 'saved cx ass' during sars?....
pleeeeeez

[sizematters]

to suggest moving B scale upwards would require common sense and solidarity. Why blame the company when you can point the finger at other people........."those freighter guys took my command" etc etc. At the end of the day if you are here at CX no matter what terms and conditions you work on , we need to get together to fight , not each other but the company.
We have no right to complain about people taking a job on any terms or conditions as they are probably better than the ones they had before.....................................AT the end of the day if we don't have the balls to withdraw our labour or co-operation in support of our justifiable cause, are we really stupid enough to expect people to refuse a job to support us...........???? ..............................

[BlunderBus]

totally agree....if you'd already flown 8 years as an f/o in cx why not do a freighter command and then go to brunei?....duh
take gun....shoot foot!

[xavierb]

Quote:"as to Oasis. Big gonads required. Their cashflow situation is frightening and I am not sure how deep the pockets are. Their seat costs must be at least 1.5 times ours"

Hi VR-HFX,

You must be a top insider.
Could you share all your financial secrets with us, I'm quite interested.

Cheers,
Xavier

[Cpt. Underpants]

Their cashflow situation is frightening

Funny thing is, I heard that went cashflow POSITIVE as early as March this year...from a really reliable, well-placed source, FWIW.

[kanot]

404 does not know them too well!

One guy has recently come out of the closet and wants to move with his partner to a country that does not frown on their lifestyle choice, the other has amassed a small fortune from an internet porn site, and does not need to work. I would post the web address but the bastard has made enough!

[sizematters]

hey if all he can afford is a closet due to the low housing allowance, so what, why knock the guy??

[bobrun]

Unfortunately there is no option re RA65 as it age discrimination law in most countries CX have a base!

CX has had bases for many years now, and age discrimination has never been a problem. But it`s funny that since the company wants to increase the retirement age it has now become an issue. Or is it really?

[AnAmusedReader]

I'm not sure that Cyril would agree that he's helping ULR make his point.

ULR continues to bash the committee whilst Cyril correctly points out that those few who dare to serve on OUR UNION's representative body get no thanks for it whatsoever. ULR still manages to allege self-interest.

Ah, Tucknott. So presidents going back that far were also into self interest? Tucknott did not go onto a base until some years after the original basings deal was signed and he didn't get the $100,000 that the early based guys did. That was stopped in 1993. But what has fact got to do with committee bashing?

The point ULR is if you are unhappy at who's on the committee do something about it. You have had friends who have done so, why don't you have a go? The life of a left hand seat armchair critic is much easier and carries no responsibility - we know.

Back to Harry Potter.

[AnAmusedReader]

Yes please. Would you provide a list of every decent airline that has an annual increment based on inflation?:confused:

Fact not fiction please.:rolleyes:

I'm sure that all the readers of pprune who are about to jump ship from cx would appreciate this infermation.

[newbie1972]

Bobrun.

very interesting point. Talking to one of the K1W1's just now, NZ has had age discrimination laws for years. Apparently it lead to a huge slow down in promotion for the Air New Zealand pilots. This hasn't affected the AKL based Cx pilots has it? Funny how this comes up as a scare mongering tacti9c now.....

[Baywatcher]

Bobrun RA65

You may recall it became European Law towards the end of last year!

[joebanana]

And no doubt CX will be assiduously applying ALL aspects of UK law.

[VR-HFX]

Kanot

So which one of the two will be plying his trade out of Brunei...that well known bastion of democracy and free life style?

[VR-HFX]

Cpt Undies

Perhaps my choice of financial terminology was not precise enough.

Any sector can be cash positive if the pax revenue exceeds outgoings for that journey.

The big hole is start up and capital costs and how you account for support costs.

Currently they have two routes, 7 a week to LGW and 6 a week to YVR. 3 a/c plus committments on 3 more ex All Nippon.

With the fares they are charging and their seat mile costs and the time to critical mass it is only a matter of time before they become another Air HK.

This is a hard cruel game and there aren't many airports you can put a 744 into that will pay you land there a la Michael O'Leary.

FWIW