Going into training straight after uni

[pilotho]

Hi all,

I have been contemplating this for a while now and I was wondering what you guys think.

I have been in education throughout my life and therefore I have not had a full time job. I feel therefore I may lack life exprience, i.e. dealing with angry or unhappy customers, in this case, passengers. As a graduate from an aviation course, I know that I would be able to cope with the training but would you suggest a year in work before commencing training?

Thanks.

[CamelhAir]

i.e. dealing with angry or unhappy customers, in this case, passengers.

Unless you mean cabin crew training, you won't be dealing with angry pax. In case of trouble you stay locked in your box, in case the troublesome one is Mohammed Al-Queda looking to gain access to the cockpit.
On the ground, if you got angry pax, you call the police. You're not there to reason with them.
The main argument is favour of getting non-flying experience is to use it as a back up. Nice to fall back on if you can't get a job after training ends. Also, when the life of low-wage (sorry, low cost) airlines destroys your interest in aviation, it'll be easier to get out of flying and rebuild your life.

[ropermav]

yes, life experience is so important for guys of our age! ie under 25s.
The airlines want well rounded people, who have been in a few scrapes before, and have grown a real character through experience.
I quit uni after 3 months,- load of tripe, then worked as a motor racing instructor for 2 years, then restaurant manager for a bit.
Im off to FTE in 8 days, to start training. Cant wait!!
If I were you, Id go for the assessment and interview in Jerez, and see what the outcome of the interview is. I had a very nice, constructive interview there. - Very honest and helpful, so would probably be of use to you, even if you decide FTE isn't for you.
Good luck anyway.

[CamelhAir]

Ropermav,
you're correct in that some airlines want rounded people. However, the trend (led of course by ryanair, as most negative trends are) is towards young, naive and inexperienced pilots. This is because such people are easily manipulated, are gullible and are prepared to put up with any ****e thrown at them. Even better from the airlines point of view is that, all puffed up with the self-importance and arrogance that only 2 stripes can engender, they don't actually realise that they're be used, exploited and shafted.

[pilotho]

So from the comments, would you have a year in work or go straight into training?

Camelhair, why did you not carry on with motorsports instructing, seems a rather interesting job to me.

As for the manipulating, I don't fully agree with that. Every pilot starts with two stripes regardless of how old and how much life exprience you may have. As a pilot with two stripes, you should really feel lucky that you have a job, even with a low cost airline, I know I would! They may work you harder but you're young and you can. At the end of the day, it's to fill up that logbook and exprience is being built up I think.

[ropermav]

Camel,
wow! I think we can detect just a sniff of bitterness there!
Chill mate.
Yes we are young, no that does not mean we are naive / daft!
It has taken me a full year since I was accepted at Jerez to decide if it was the wisest move. -ie massive loan, secured against folks place ect...
As my best mates godmother is head of recruitment at BA said:- FTE is one of the best 4 colleges in the WORLD!
So at least guys like us are getting the best possible head start.
And we have to start with 2 stripes one day mate! what is the alternative then???

[CamelhAir]

es we are young, no that does not mean we are naive / daft!

With all respect, I'm in a better position than yourself to assess this contention vis a vis new pilots.
I sincerely hope that you won't be naive/daft. Regrettably, the aforementioned do neither themselves nor their profession any favours. If you indeed turn out not to be, you will be a genuinely positive addition to the industry and I wish you luck.

However,
wow! I think we can detect just a sniff of bitterness there!
Camelhair, why did you not carry on with motorsports instructing, seems a rather interesting job to me.

The first lesson in aviation is not to regard those with a less than rosy opinion of it as bitter, twisted or whatever else you think I am. A healthy scepticism is a vital attribute for any pilot. Calling it like it is, be it in the air, or on the ground, is not bitterness, it is merely a common sense survival tactic.
Playing the facts as they are, not as you'd like them to be, is how to survive (both literally and figuratively) in aviation. I can't stress this point enough and one day when you have hours in your logbook and experience of the industry in general you will understand and appreciate the point.
As you progress beyond your training days, you will encounter many people with differing opinions to your own rose-tinted ones. They will have the benefit of experience. You won't. You may not like or agree with their opinions, but you will thank yourself in later years that you at least listened.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

As a pilot with two stripes, you should really feel lucky that you have a job, even with a low cost airline, I know I would! They may work you harder but you're young and you can. At the end of the day, it's to fill up that logbook and exprience is being built up I think.

You're proving camelhAir's point by saying this. You'll feel lucky for a few months then it wears off and you'll start to feel knackered and pissed off. Certainly if you work for O'Leary. And as for working hard - I'm young mate and trust me, getting up at 0430 five days on the trot is not much fun at any age, nor is it good for you.

I'm afraid CamelhAir is right. As new and inexperienced pilots we do ourselves and our colleagues few favours by accepting a constant stream of crap and showing a willingness to take on huge debts to finance training and relieve the financial burden from the airlines completely. :ugh:

I'm an F/O and I work for a loco - thankfully not Ryanair. Why thankfully? Because as CamelhAir suggests to you, they're a s:mad:ite employer. They exploit low hour new entrant pilots by offering T&Cs that are a disgrace. I'll say steer clear of them and their like once your training is over but I'm sure it will fall on deaf ears, and I don't blame you for that one bit. The sad bit is nearly 2 years into my career I know if I was a 250 hour guy again I'd have joined ryanair because it is a jet job, and at that stage of your career that is all you focus on.

As for working for a year I'd just crack on with the training. Good Luck.

[Monkey06]

I finished Uni in June last year, got a job with an Airline in an Ops environment, meeting the right people. In my opinion it is great experience and great for the CV.

[Superpilot]

True story. A guy leaves Uni with a mountain of debt, starts an Integrated Course and then wait for it…..hands Ryanair another €30k for the TR. It don’t end there… He’s going to make a loss for another 6 months. It will turn out to be £120k by the time he’s finished.

Most people not interested in aviation would consider the above level of debt to be insane normal but it happens all the time in aviation! Young (mainly boys) are seduced by the idea of flying a jet for a living and are determined to get there at any cost.

Some people can live with debt throughout their lives, other’s despise it but I’m not here to debate this issue. What should be obvious from all of the above is that young wannabe’s such as the above (I’m not much older) who are impatient and show no regard for all the ‘what ifs’ in life are digging their own graves.

God forbid after year 1 you have a nasty accident and lose your arm, leg, sight or hearing, what use is a frozen ATPL and £120k of debt then? In fact perfectly abled people lose their medicals sometimes.

Not many people openly admit their debt situation because that would mean accepting reality….that one has been a fool! It’s a clear case of determination being a bad thing if you ask me. Determination often makes you blind to reality and when it bites, it’s often too late.

My advice would be, the same I always say. Get yourself onto a proper career line, do your PPL Stateside (can be done in 3 weeks - a holiday period most companies allow). Come back and commence your ATPL Theory via Distance Learning. Study during lunch times and in the evenings. Spend the weekends hour building (Join a group). Do your exams. When you have enough reserves get your CPL/ME/IR out of the way (full time if you have to. Won’t take more than 4 months) and then get back to work straight away.

Before you know it you’ll have an ATPL in your hand, 2-3 years experience within another field, earning £30-40k (minimum for a graduate at that age) with all the options in the world. I think that's better than 5 years experience flying jets with £60k of debt still to go!

[pilotho]

To be honest, people say that low hour pilots are being exploit but what other options are there? Just like an inexprience professional in any industry, there are plenty and the company can pick any. As economics go, when there are plenty to choose from, the value drops. Maybe low hour pilots are being exploited but again, what other options are there?
As for training part time, wouldn't that be even harder? Trying to juggle studying with a full time job. Wouldn't that mean you wouldn't be as current at whatever you're doing and end up spending more due to resits?
I know I don't have much exprience but I also feel that I have no other options but to accept the debt and exploitation. At the end of the day, I am still getting paid for doing something other people have to pay for or dream about. Supposing I get through of course! :)

[flyboy1818]

I have also just finished uni. Aviation degree, PPL, couple of years of Airport work behind me too.

Like many people who have been sitting on the fence over this one for a while I have finally made my decision.

1.) Try CTC (wings), The debts paid off for you and a reasonable starting salary after debt repayments will mean that finances should be ok. When your on the course it will be another year of student style finances thats all.

2.) Go to america to do ground school, CPL, FAA IR and then conversion back home.

For 2.) a loan that I will personally be required to service will be taken out. I have however done a financial analysis and even when including intrest repayments and the potential extra cost for an instructors rating or extra hours for the IR conversion it works out cheaper than doing it with distance learning and hour building in the U.K.

Some older people on here love to bash the young Pilots on these forums, but life is too short to wait for all this stuff. The longer you leave it the harder its gonna be to learn and manage your ever increasing finances. If you have just left uni now and you spend 5 years in the workplace you will probably be settled down and own a house. Now thats gonna make finding your first job real easy right!

I don't like people hammering themselves into 120K of debt and you will never ever find me working for Ryanair, nor will you find me in 120K of debt. Loans for flight training are OK, just makesure you can service them once you have completed training.

[flyer19832007]

Mate I finished an Aviation course in July 05, started Integrated course in Sep 05 Finished March 07 emplyed July 07. Depends largely on luck and being in the right place at the right time.

Again never had a full time jobe, been studying all my life, but realising your dream at 23 isnt a bad place to be.

Good luck!

[ropermav]

Flyer, Well done!
Hats off, I 100% believe this to be the way forward, debt or no debt.
Personally I have no doubt that it is worth the debt, in order to get on the ladder at a decent age, not late 20s/ early 30s. - sorry guys, no offence meant.

[GS-Alpha]

I left university in the morning, and started at OATS that same afternoon! People who say university students have no life experience - did not go to university! My years at university taught me far more about life than I would have learnt getting some two bit job and living with my parents until I could afford to move out.

Go straight onto the flight training course would be my advice.

[flyer19832007]

Roper 3 of my friends friends went to Jerez, all working for Cityfler in EDI now, 2 pre approved and one reccomended. All of us started an integrated course somewhere within 3-4 months of leaving university as being a pilot is all we ever wanted to do, to this date were all still really close friends because of it!

You have to really want it to succeed, people who really want to fly show passion for flying without trying, its subconcious....its those that dont know the difference between a Boeing and an Airbus that need to worry, lol. Only joking, but you get the idea.

Good luck to all those looking for jobs or are still training, market is still bouyant at the mo, many sponsorships on the horizon at Oxford and FTE.