'Pilot shortage' at Brussels Airlines

[The SSK]

Brussels Airlines has a huge problem with keeping experienced pilots. The older and more experienced pilots have gone to other companies where there is a better salary and more attractive conditions. Flights have been cancelled due to shortage of pilots. Even though there are enough younger pilots to fill the gaps the problem is that they are not allowed to navigate a plane by themselves. The airline asked that the Belgian government to revise the tax system for pilots in Belgium. A review of the pay scale and conditions are also to be discussed in the next few weeks.

Source xpats.com

[cortilla]

Spoke to friends who live in belgium and saw this on the news last night. It seems that the tax system is crippling (approx 55%) and so anyone who can goes somewhere else asap. It seems that they are already 50 pilots short and more are leaving. Should be fun to see if the government does anything about, especially seeing as there currently is no proper government in belgium at the moment seeing as they recently had elections. Also beurocracy in belgium is notorious and any changes in the law will take a long time to happen.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Not surprised...

I got a call from them in January, asking if I was still interested in joining them as an FO. The salary was half of what I am making in the UK and that's before the Belgian taxes...

Very impressed they actually called me though. The other 99.9% of airlines that had said "thank you for your application, we'll be in touch" never did.

P

[old,not bold]

Press Review today:

Belgian national airline suffers shortage of pilots
Brussels Airlines, the national carrier of Belgium, is experiencing serious shortage of pilots after some 50 pilots and co-pilots resigned in the past six months, Belgian paper Le Soir reported Tuesday.

In order to guarantee operation of its flights in September and October, Brussels Airlines has to call in some pilots who were hired by the former national carrier Sabena airline, which went bankrupt in 2001.

These 58 and 59-year-old pilots will be posted on long haul flights under independent contracts.

The airline will also have to hire an airplane with pilots from another airline to operate European flights, the report said.

The people who have left Brussels Airlines are primarily experienced pilots. They were either recruited by Air France or switched over to budget airlines which offer better pay packages.

Brussels Airlines has launched a recruitment campaign and is considering raising payment in response to the shortage.

"Belgian airlines cannot offer the same fiscal advantages as foreign companies. The Belgian government must take urgent measures to safeguard the competitive position of Belgian airlines on the world labor market," said Geert Sciot, who is in charge of Brussels Airlines' communications.

Source: Xinhua

[Line up 25R]

The fiscality in Belgium is a concern, but this is mainly the Brussels Airlines management argument behind what they hide to justify the current situation.
Brussels Airlines pilots netto salaries are a joke, but gross salary packages are already 15 to 50 % below the major airlines standards.
This is what's really happening;
1) After Sabena banckrupcy (2001) they created (SN)Brussels Airlines and cutted off the pilot's gross salaries, with this argument ; "take it or leave it".
2) No significant improvements of salaries or social life for the pilots, considered as "button pushers" since the start of the company, working on a 10 on - 4 off basis.
NB: The office staffs get a 13th month on their payslip, even the mechanics get one, but the pilots don't.
3) Total Brussels Airlines pilots are around 540 (80 on airbus, 110 on 737 and 350 on AVRO). Around 25 pilots left in 2005, 45 in 2006 and...
4) Current industry boom--> Already some 40 pilots left since January 2007.
Until now the Brussels Airlines management still refuses to raise the pilot salaries or improve their social lifes and they have just launched a specific action plan.
This plan consist on pushing the ab-initio's training to a max, hire retired sabena airbus pilots to fly on the airbus sector and stop the promotions from Avro to airbus left seat to maintain the experienced Avro captains on their seat.
As they expect some Avros to be grounded due to lack of crews, it seems that they've decided to replace them by additional "wet-leased" aircrafts+crews for september/October this year! :ugh:

The next coming months should be interesting...

[kingair9]

By the way, same problem with the European fleet of LX - at least 2 ARJ's stand unused every day with flights being op'd by JK, C9 and others.

[JOB HUNTER]

No money No fly.
This statement is old like the the world.

[Jet La Gaffe]

All of the pilots which have experience has already left or is looking now for another place to work. Only 2 kinds of pilots wants to stay, very new first officers with a total time of 600 hours or pilots who have just become captain will stay until what looks good on there CV.

Not only the pilots have leaved, also all ops managers with experience. The old CEO was an English man who had great experience and knew everyones name. He was the boss of diferent airlines before and even started a big charter company in England with succes. He was replaced by a standard manager type that do not recognize a plane if it was standing in front of himself . We almost never see him and last time he had a meeting with the pilots a few of them even quit during the reunion ! The director of operation of SNBA has gone to work for the new cargo airline that is in Brussels, Cargo b although he had done good work for the succesor of Sabena. He has been replaced by a cord pupet of higher management. The director of operation of the old Virgin Express is even worst, he is only a first officer who has 4000 hours.

Easyjet, if you read this, now is the good time to take your 737s to Brussels.

[BelArgUSA]

My sympathies to the Belgian pilot group...
xxx
Nothing changes with the good old days of Sabena, and if it is not the "Administration de l'Aéronautique", it is inept management of airlines, or idiots in the fiscal and taxation ministry...
xxx
Belgian pilots, hold on tight - SNBA will be forced to double your salaries, or as a tradition in Belgium, close the doors and put thousands of people out of work. Airline managers do not realize that the most important employees are pilots and engineers who work for them, the people who break planes, and the people who fix them.
xxx
I am at the end of my career, fat, dumb and happy to fly a 747 in Argentina and I recall 40 years of the airline industry in Belgium... what a mess... I do remember failing the exam to enter pilot training at the EAC, because of my poor Flemish language abilities... how do you report "downwind" in Flemish...? Is it "wind in het gat...?"...
xxx
Then I remember the October 1973 war, a layoff from PanAm, with plenty of hours on 707 and 727s, and knocking the door of a famous "Mr. Destrée" at the Administration de l'Aéronautique" and trying to get a licence to fly for Sobelair, who kindly told me "Où avez-vous trouvé vos licences FAA, mon garçon...? Dans une poubelle...?" - (Where did you find your FAA licences, my boy...? In a trash can...?).
xxx
Then it was the PanAm bankruptcy in December 1991, this time I had to re-expatriate myself, to Argentina, as a 747 captain. Everybody laughed at me in Belgium... see, "we" in Belgium, we have Sabena, and the "mutuelles"... And the "chomage..." - But 10 years later, 2001, Sabena was next on the list of entering history books. Sabena was famous as the experts of Europe-Africa air traffic... all gone.
xxx
Now you are left with SNBA... no better management. Your only weapon now is to tell them, money, money or we quit. What is the ABPNL doing...? There are enough jobs available, worldwide, and Belgian pilots have good reputation to be considered for hiring anywhere.
Mes meilleurs voeux à tous.
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[ciderman]

I was contacted by an agency to go to Brussels. I've lots of hours on 146 and the Avro and have operated there before. Money was not bad, but 10 on 4 off!! Come on guys. Even Easy does 5 /4 0ff 5 /3 0ff. I declined. 6 month contract with a ticket to Brussels at the beginning and the end.

Much as i like Leffe Blonde I'm staying at home!!

[Bokkenrijder]

It seems that the tax system is crippling (approx 55%)... Ah! Ain't "socialism" a wonderful thing? :eek:

[Bokkenrijder]

Well...that trilingual rule never seemed to appy to the French speaking Wallons who could barely utter 2 words of Dutch. :}

What comes around goes around, it's time EZY opens a base in BRU! ;)

[florida flamingo]

Friends!
How can you run an Airline in a country of 10 million people that has five governments and three of them decide on the noise policy of that Airport?
My retirement is more than most of the Captains earn in that company today. Yes real pilots should leave. There is big world outside of that tiny Flemish Region! For those who want to stay you should "pull up your pants!"

[cortilla]

Never thought there was such animosity to an airline. You reap what you sow i suppose. Especially seeing as there are so many airlines that offer phenomenally better T's + C's.

[poorwanderingwun]

I've often pondered on the disparity between Belgium and the Netherlands... Similar sized countries next door to each other, both of which had world-wide connections through their colonial past... one creates a hugely respected airline operating as efficiently as one could hope...and then there was SABENA...

[BelArgUSA]

Oh, you want some historic dirty laundry for the Belgian style airline management...? Here we go...
xxx
1977... I am back with PanAm, flying F/O 707... Scheduling offers me a long term assignment based BRU with one of our planes (N705PA) - I accept as my mother lives in Brussels. Airplane is leased ACMI to Sobelair. Airplane is painted in Sabena/Sobelair colors, gets Belgian registry OO-SJP... We flew mostly from Brusssels to Kinshasa and Luanda. All was fine...
xxx
A given time, Sabena is on strike... cannot recall, but was flight crews and/or cabin crews.
Easy, Sabena painted titles "Sabena" on the 707, rest of livery was common to Sabena/Sobelair anyway.
xxx
Here is the "dirty laundry". Sabena management heads were also the "owners" of Sobelair. So, any time Sabena was on strike, fine, Sobelair was chartered to operate the flights. The longer the strike, days, weeks, the richer the heads of Sobelair got in their Swiss or Luxembourg bank accounts.
xxx
Oh, but we had a problem for flight attendants, being on strike, none available...
Solution, they went through the airport facilities, and took Sabena catering employees, even selected some airport restaurant servers staff, 10 minutes cabin training "here - how you open a 707 door" - and on our way to Kinshasa...
xxx
I am certain SNBA continues the tradition with other dirty laundry.
I am available as director of operations, want to get rich.
Pass the Euros under the table please. Dank U wel, merci...
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[Jet La Gaffe]

On July 19th the Director of Operations of Brussels Airlines was arrested and during three hours he was asked questions. The police has not officially put charge on him but according radio couloir it had to see with falsifing of different papers and also with the abuse of flight data monitoring system. It could certainly be possible that this explains how a copi with only 4000hrs has became DO after only 6 months !

Immediately he put the blame on Belgian Cockpit Association for his quality time with the police. Maybe he has only himself to blame for it and not the association !

[Avman]

If one can become CEO of an airline without any previous aviation experience (other than flying as a pax) is it not feasable for a 4000 hour F/O to become DIR/OPS of an airline? Just asking.

[Sgnr de L'Atlantique]

What a joke! What a F*****ng joke!

Le histoire se repete I would say...And Belgium should sink deeper and deeper in shame!

As BelArgUsa pointed out allready, Belgian aviation basically has been a joke since the beginning. ( Btw, I really appreciate your posts mate. I enjoyed reading your posts here and on the flighs safety tread. Myself I am a Belgian flying at the other side of the world as well. I guess we get a clearer view from here dont we?)

Myself I was flying for SABENA untill its demise on 11/2002. We all knew that something was wrong, that the company we where so proud of was fatally ill from the inside. And do not blame it all on SR please, they just acted as a catalysator to speed up the damage allready done to the company by our own governement and its corrupt employees. I would not like to have to feed all the mouths of those who became filthy rich on the back of SABENA.

Anayway, the ineveitable finally happend and the second oldest company sunk, taking most of its darkest secrets with it in the deep!

Out of its ashes arised a new company....SNBA ( Asstail). As said before, the policy abused the situation and took this opportunity to design new rules and regulations for its pilots. In the same move, all of us, the Sabeniens, where kindly asked to leave ASAP!

STOP----SOrry, I forgot to mention that first they pulled the final humiliation act on us by making us believe that if we wrote an application letter BY HAND to the management, begging for a job, we might be rescued!!!!HAHAHA, what a joke! We all wrote it, nobody got hired!

So, the biggest group of Belgian experienced pilots ever left for greener pastures. And it has proven to be our luck. Thanks to the high standards of training and skills we apparently had, most of us found a job with majors all over the world within 2 years.

Now 5 years later, SNBA has proven once more that aviation in Belgian in the form of a national carrier has no future whatsoever! Although they where given all the opportunities to take advantage of the fresh start, they managed to ruin it within 5 years.

Mismanagement and greed caused the airline to become top heavy again. Money, that was not there in the first place as they had to pay it back end of 2007, was spend without a cause. Cars, plasma screens, special treatments......Nothing ever changes!
In the meantime the fleet of aircraft was ageing and needed replacement. The pilots saw that there was no future, except when you where a management pilot. Once more only the happy few where allowed to fly the airbusses. The big masses where kept content on the Avros. Well, thats what they tought..

The critical mistake came when the decision was made to merge the two seniority lists of VEX and SNBA, hereby creating a new airline called Brussels airlines!
Politics kicked in again, with all its consequences!

Some people never learn I guess!

So the pilots started leaving, and rightfully so!

And there is nothing they can do about it....because once more its too late. The cancer has been left festering around for too long! And 7 hours away from home, these pilots can earn 5 imes their salary flying new equipment around, with chances for a real carrer and promotion.

Brussels airlines has become a training organisation for ab initio pilots, looking for their first experience! And maybe a rejuvenation centre as well for retired ex-sabena pilots!

My advise to you guys...for what its worth...

venture out into the real world! Management does not give a damn about you, just like they did not care about us 5 years ago neither! You will be surprised to see what you can find out there!

Your ex-Do did it. And he knows better than anybody else what is going on!

Otherwise, just be patient and prepare yourself for rough times ahead. Because it will take some time before the likes of easyjet will be allowed into EBBR with a base!

Good luck and godspeed!


PS I thought that it actually was a regulation that a DO had to be the holder of a full ATPL and had to fly as a captain for his airline? So how can this FO be the DO of VEX?

PS2 DO has nothing in common with CEO!

[BelArgUSA]

When it comes to qualifications and experience to be a DO or Chief Pilot, the FAA in the USA, and in the countries which use these rules as their standards, a DO is required to have 3 years as PIC on a transport category airplane of 5,700 kg AUW or more, with an air carrier. If you look at a Chief Pilot position, same 3 years requirement, but must be PIC qualified on one of the types of aircraft operated by that airline.
xxx
The FAA rule is FAR 119.67...
xxx
As to the JAA standards, I really don't know. I assume that there are standards and rules applicable to such positions. In Belgium, as usual, I would suspect that being a friend of a Flemish or Walloon minister for 3 years is one of the standards, and most important, demonstrate your ability to receive money under the table. Aeronautical experience as PIC on ultralights may be required occasionally, but is waivable.
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

[TheSailor]

Hello,

In Belgium, as usual, I would suspect that being a friend of a Flemish or Walloon minister for 3 years is one of the standards, and most important, demonstrate your ability to receive money under the table.

And don't forget to have as friend ... " l'homme à la pipe " :)

http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/w/thumbs.gif

Regards. http://photobucket.com/albums/v509/Bebermaur/th_bye.gif

[Bolter152]

Hello,

I am a Belgian citizen who dreamed of his 6 to become a pilot. Now I decided to do it and I made my decission. But since I completely do not trust Belgium and aviation, I decided to start with my pilot training in the Netherlands and my intention will be to work as a pilot outside Belgium, even outside Europe.

There is no atmosphere in Belgium to talk about aviation. There is too little enthousiasme in Belgium to push for aviation. If you look at the 'great airlines' in Belgium... And don't tell me Belgium is not the right place to build up a great and money-making airline. If you look at the economy of our country, than there HAS to be much room for bussiness travellers. I you look at the port of Antwerp, there is at every corner of every street a building of a great company with customers worldwide, those guys need air travel to do their business! The port of Antwerp itself counts to the top 5 worldwide!

The fact that pilots are leaving the company Brussels Airlines reflects the current situation regarding aviation in Belgium. I you don't give the means to create a good atmosphere to develop and to run a great airline, the whole thing will finally end in a fiasco.

We Belgians have to stop to know things better all time. Look around to other countries, just to the Netherlands for example, and you will see that aviation can play an important role for your economy.

Set some goals, make the plans, do the investements and run to company like an airline should be runned. For that, sign the best available people of the industry and pay them to stay with you. THEN you will have a airline that is a big PLUS for your economy!

Cheers

[ray cosmic]

Oh, and add to that a disregard to noise abatement politics, which is edging to harassment of everything with wings in Brussels.

[dimdelu]

could someone give me the range of salaries/benefits at Brussels Airlines or more generally in Belgium pls ?

[Teddy Robinson]

The foregoing made interesting reading.

I joined as a contractor earlier this year : the working pattern I have is 7 on 4 off, travelling to and from BRU at the end of every working rotation on the first and last duty day to my chosen point on the codeshare network.. wherever I ask to go !

Standard leave is 2.5 days per calander month, which is scheduled between your 4 day off blocks .. equating to 2 weeks off every 3 months.

Pay is ok, the setup is well organised, and the social fund contributions which are paid by the agency, are refunded in a lump sum at the end of a 12 month period, whether you renew the contract or not.

I have seen far worse .. but thats a contractors view.

The agency for those interested and suitably qualified is contractair.

[dimdelu]

Pay is ok


can u tell more ? :rolleyes: if possible

[Turkish777]

Well I applied to them with a current B737 NG rating with only the base check on type, total time 310 hours and this is the response I got:

Hello xxxxxxx,

indeed we are in search of Type Rated Pilots(B737).Although we currently give priority to Belgian candidates for obvious reasons.
I cannot be quite sure about this, but it looks like we will be looking for foreign candidates too in the near future.
Anyway, if and when applicable, you will hear from us as your candidature has been held aside.
I would like to ask you to update your resume on our database (cvwarehouse) on a regular basis.
Thanks for your interest


'Belgian candidates for obvious reasons' whats obvious that they discriminate..And I don't want to here its due to tax reasons that we will leave as theres people like myself paying for line training and working for free! If only the UK Airlines operated like this maybe I would have a job over here.

[dimdelu]

turkish777, did u fill the form on the internet? The CVwerehouse format?

How long did they answer?

[Turkish777]

Yes I did that first (CV Warehouse) and I heard nothing, then sort of an insider gave me the mailing address so I sent a written letter and CV once again I heard nothing, then finally the same person gave me the email address which went directly to the main recruitment person. He sent that reply fairly rapidly maybe a few days...

[dimdelu]

maybe is it possible of for u to give this email adress pls (the one of the main recrutment person) ? (by private message...)

It could be very nice from u!

thank you a lot !

[MungoP]

Turkish777... total time 310 hrs ? Is that a typo ?
If not i wouldn't want you sitting in any seat on a 73 that you hadn't been offered in exchange for a boarding pass.

[Turkish777]

310 Total time with only 1hr on type..

Well if you don't like the sound of me flying a 737 with that little experience then best you don't fly Ryan Air, Easy Jet, BA (i.e.Oxford Grauates), Flybe, Titan, Excel, Air Slovakia, Air Baltic, Virgin Nigeria, Monarch, Royal Air Morocco, FLY Lal etc etc.. the list continues, in fact I think you better get a bus as all these companies employ low houred pilots, have a look on their web sites and get with the 21st Century..

[BelArgUSA]

Yeah, MungoP...
xxx
If you go from USA to Europe, with these green horns...
You better book your trip on a South American airline,
Miami to South America, enjoy a night there, then fly to Europe...
That is for your safety...
xxx
Here our new hires have an ATPL (not stored in a "freezer") -
And 500 hours of JET time (JET does not include prop-jets) - Jet means REAL JET...
Oh - granted, our boys dont even know how to spell "MCC Licence"...
What is that, anyway, another piece of worthless paper...?
Guys with a "deluxe CPL" of 309.5 hrs and "frozen-whatever-you-call-it" are C-152 captains.
In Argentina, they are authorized to scare their overweight mother-in-laws only.
So they are in command of a Cessna one-fifty-TOO HEAVY.
xxx
Get with the 21st Century, MungoP, as el Señor Turkish777 tells you.
Me, in Europe, it is TGV-Thalys, Deutsches Bundesbahn, or SNCF...
I dont like to wait for ticketing and bags anyway.
And still be at 35 km of the city I go to...
xxx
With the TGV from Brussels to Paris, 1 H 20 minutes.
From heart of the city, to heart of the city.
No need to show 90 minutes in advance at 7:00AM at an airport.
And still wait for your bags to arrive at 12:30PM... and be late for lunch.
The TGV "pilot" does not read his book "how to drive a train in 10 lessons"...
xxx
:sad:
Happy contrails
And "Teshe", Turkish, enjoy a glass of Raki for me...

[MidgetBoy]

Omg... I wish I had an airline job with 300 hours..

[BRUpax]

With over 3000 hours as pax can I be an F/O?

That's the problem with pilot shortages, the minimum qualifications keep going down and you get babies with a couple of hours who think they're God's gift to flying. Scares the pooh out of me I can tell you. And if you don't like what I say Turkish 777, tough! I'm the customer and I pay your wages, that entitles me to an opinion ;)

[Denti]

It is nothing new in Europe, in fact the big guys like Lufthansa, BA etc. put pilots with between 200 and 400 hours total time in their shiny big jets (some of them heavies) for a long time. It is the norm here, not the exception.

It is called abinitio training and absolutely nothing new. It just gets taken a step further with the new MPL, and that thing certainly scares me a bit too. Not those that do it for the big airlines like Lufty etc, but those that will do it at small mostly unregulated flight schools. So in the future pilots will start with as little as 60 hours total on a jet...

[MungoP]

The BIG difference with the majors is that they're aware that they need a training program and THAT is why they have very low hour pilots on their staff.. but not pretending to be qualified F/Os.. they are there for training and sit quietly watching qualified people do the job before they start doing it themselves while being monitored.. an apprentiship if you like.. very different to the LCC scenario where hopelessly underqualified wannabees are moving the CofG fwd an 1/8th of an inch and trying to stay in the loop on a bad night.
Pax would be horrified to know how miserably low the experience level is fwd of that cockpit door.. some of this policy is coming home to roost over here in the US among the regionals.

[dimdelu]

any informations about JetAirfly ?
Roster, salary, captain opportunity ?

[flycheaper]

But don't worry because on the left of this low time pilot there is a Captain which is born with 10.000 hrs heavy jet.
Mmmmh because you know in America to be in a major you need 500 hrs Jet but no turboprop (so where do you get those 500???)...

Allez bonne journée MDRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[MungoP]

in America to be in a major you need 500 hrs Jet but no turboprop (so where do you get those 500???)...

Through the regionals... most are recruited onto B1900s...Saabs etc and upgrade to small jets ultimately moving on to the big boys seats in the majors.. unfortunately, because of the seriously crap salaries offered by the regionals anyone with a few hours under their belts avoids them and they're operating with some hopelessly inexperienced people even in the left hand seats... hence some of the incidents of the recent past.. You don't think a 10k hr capt can screw up ?

If he can make a bad decision about trying an approach better avoided, what chance is there that he'll debate it with a newbee on the right who barely knows which way up he's flying ?

As far as I know Boeing are still producing a/c requiring 2 crew... not one and a bag-carrier. A chimp can be taught to push a few buttons.. decision making skills come with experience and if CRM is to be anything other than lip-service there has to be real interaction between two pilots of reasonable experience.

[EjetSetter]

Well here's the main question, do you think the airline will be forced to raise its T and C's to all new heights or are we doomed to see them suffer more and more?

[misd-agin]

How many total a/c?

How many pilots?

Time to upgrade?

4-8 newhires off the street into a training program? How long before they hit the line? Upgrade? :sad:

[Mister Geezer]

I think the pilot shortage at Brussels Airlines will last for some time and it is going to be Captains that they will need for some time to come. A colleague of mine who is a F/O was offered a indefinite contract with Brussels which is rarely heard of in the contract world but surely an indicator of the crewing crisis at Brussels!