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View Full Version : The B737 Landing Roll - F/O handling and Captain Hovering..


A37575
10th Jul 2007, 13:57
Discussion came up in pub during recent overnight. When the first officer conducts the landing in a B737, at what stage of the landing roll should he assume or expect, that the captain will take over control?
Experience reveals some captains will call assuming control at 80 knots - some at 60 knots as the reversers are being stowed - others somewhere under 100 knots depending on various outside factors such as proximity to high speed turn offs. Some wait until reversers are stowed - others take over control with full reverse still applied and autobrake still operating.
With such a wide variance of captain techniques - some even depending on individual captain whims or "twitch factor" it must be difficult for the first officer as handling pilot to judge when the captain will assume control.
In terms of situational awareness - if that term is valid here - I would have thought it would be wise for the captain to brief the first officer prior to touch down, of his (the captain's) intentions as to exactly at what point in the landing roll he would assume control. At least then the first officer would be prepared - rather than having to guess the magic moment., especially if he is already in the process of applying manual braking. Comments?

fireflybob
10th Jul 2007, 14:04
Always maintain at least idle reverse since Capt may (in extremis) want more reverse when he takes control.

Seems fairly simple to me - FO maintains control until such time as Capt announces "I have control".

411A
10th Jul 2007, 15:14
Well, it depends.
In my small company, the First Officer will announce....60 knots, your control...usually with reverse just canceled..

Or, a few will wait for my call of sixty, and promptly say...you got 'em, Captain.

Either way is fine by me.
Now, I would be the first to say that these folks are very experienced, so it helps.

BOAC
10th Jul 2007, 15:23
some at 60 knots as the reversers are being stowed - first, to correct a common error - they do not NEED to be 'stowed' at 60kts and reverse starts to reduce to idle at 60kts. They should be 'stowed' when at taxy speed.

Second, as FFB says - what is the issue? How does the Captain KNOW in advance whether the F/O will
a) Touch down correctly and in the right place
b) apply correct braking for the planned OR NECESSARY exit
c) maintain normal control/centreline

and whether something is going to change that will require input?

Yes - please leave the reversers 'as they are' at hand over. 9 times out of 10 they are stowed at handover and I have to redeploy them.

In my time I got used to a variety of take-overs from just after landing to rudder-fine steering off at a high-speed. Almost all unbriefed. I coped.

danishdynamite
10th Jul 2007, 16:34
I as a FO would like to have the control as long as possible - for training and experience gaining.
Some Cpts take over almost the second we touch down and thats not appreciated.
Did a manual braking in a 737 classic the other day... Almost broke my nose :} due to the not so smooth braking in that old plane... But I learned something and had a big laugh with the cpt.
Normally we only fly the NG so I am not so used to the classic. And since this cpt let me do manual braking I also had a learning day :)
So... let the FO do as much as possible - please

flyboyike
10th Jul 2007, 16:40
As an FO, may I request that you Captains, when taking it over, actually say "I have the controls" or "My airplane" rather than the more ambiguous (to me, anyway) "I'm on the brakes with you"? Consider that we are used to from the earliest days of PPL training for the CFI to say "I have the controls", so something similar and definitive would be appreciated.

TopBunk
10th Jul 2007, 18:15
If the FO has tiller steering, why would the captain need to take control at all during the landing roll? Otherwise play it by ear, assume nothing and if you hear nothing continue flying the plane. If and when you can't make a turn, then ask if the skipper would like control;)

db16
10th Jul 2007, 18:39
As an 'old' hand (7000on type and 65+) it is usual for the LHS occupant to take control at about 60kt - as 99% of 737's only have a tillier on the left!!!!! db16;) However it is essential to say 'I have control'

411A
10th Jul 2007, 20:40
IF the First officer has good solid experience on type, they can normally be relied upon to exercise good judgement.
Give the guys (and gals) a break...they will be Commanders one day and will certainly appreciate the experience.

Leave 'em alone to do their job...the Captain who 'hovers' over the controls needs to retire....pronto.

And, this coming from a Commander with 30+ years of command experience in heavy/wide body jet transport aircraft.

Surprise...surprise.

Ashling
10th Jul 2007, 23:29
I'd have thought its pretty obvious that you allow the F/O to get on with it within the usual constraints and he can expect you to take control at the point specified in those same SOPs.

If he makes a hash of it for whatever reason then you can intervene in the normal fashion and if necessary by taking control earlier than normal.

The main reason I tend to end up taking control earlier than normal is to prevent the aircraft getting caught slow speed between two high speed exits with another aircraft 3 miles in trail.

PantLoad
11th Jul 2007, 00:51
What is your company's SOP?

PantLoad

sudden Winds
11th Jul 2007, 03:44
at taxi speed unless he/she wants to vacate at a high speed twy. In that case I am usually informed of that and even start turning with rudder...steering could lead to overcontrolling at speeds greater than 40-60 kt. I normally give it to the capt with reversers stowed...

danishdynamite
11th Jul 2007, 10:22
SW: I normally give it to the capt with reversers stowed...

Hmm lucky guy... normally the cpt TAKES control in my company.
If I want it longer I usually have to ask the cpt not to take control untill taxi speed, which by the way is SOP.

TolTol
11th Jul 2007, 11:45
Have to agree with some of the comments here. As a new FO it really annoys me when the capt takes control above 100kts. I want the practice of manual braking and judging how much braking to apply for an exit.

Cpt_Drag
11th Jul 2007, 11:55
Why not just take a couple of seconds during your brief and mention at what stage, providing all goes to plan, control will be passed from right to left. Then providing nothing out of the ordinary comes along all concerned know whats going on.

Kiltie
11th Jul 2007, 12:04
Your company Operations Manual should state clearly at what point the Captain takes control during the landing roll, and indeed what positions the thrust reversers are left in. The Captain may deem a deviation from SOP as necessary depending on the runway surface conditions / weather / First Officer ability. It is however only polite and in the spirit of good CRM to discuss this prior to the approach. Random practice in assuming control at the whim of the Captain is demoralising for the FO and does not promote discipline nor skill-building.
I agree with Cpt Drag. Any doubt over what point the Captain takes control can be discussed during your interactive approach and landing brief which may make him think twice before wading in and creating an unhappy atmosphere.

"If the FO has tiller steering, why would the captain need to take control at all during the landing roll? Otherwise play it by ear, assume nothing and if you hear nothing continue flying the plane. If and when you can't make a turn, then ask if the skipper would like control"

......This may or may not be your company's SOP if you have dual tillers but for heaven's sake check your manual for conflict before you go applying your own initiative-based procedures.

Zeffy
11th Jul 2007, 13:13
fireflybob:FO maintains control until such time as Capt announces "I have control".

Don't the various SOP's have to be predicated on that fundamental concept?

Seems to me that "giving" control could be asking for trouble unless it's a three part deal -- e.g., "Please take the airplane... I have the airplane... your airplane".

(Recall the KJFK L-1011 crash (http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR93-04.pdf) where the transfer of control was initiated by the FO....?)

Centaurus
11th Jul 2007, 14:34
Yes - please leave the reversers 'as they are' at hand over. 9 times out of 10 they are stowed at handover and I have to redeploy them
Firstly, judging by the variety of opinions expressed in the preceding replies, the original correspondent A37575 has hit the nail on the head in his questioning of captain's habits in terms of when they prefer to take over control during a landing roll. Whether or not this detail should be published in company SOP is a matter of opinion. There is surely a limit on how much needs to be published in the Great Book as against what is generally accepted by competent well trained crews as commonsense airmanship.

Secondly, in reply to the boxed quote above, some may consider it's is a bit damned late to be redeploying the reversers after they have already been stowed or close to be stowed. It is well known that below 80 knots the effect of reverse is greatly diminished as a retardation device unless on a very slippery surface.
Couple that with reverse idle the time to attain full reverse takes at least 7 seconds, when at the same time wheel braking on a dry runway is very efficient. Therefore the use of reverse idle as a "standby" in case more decelleration is suddenly required for whatever reason - is just fooling yourself.
Operational margins published in the FCTM indicate a rejected take off using manual brakes and full reverse on a dry surface the amount of length saved is around 180 feet compared with no reverse. With RTO the saved distance is probably even less. That distance reflects the efficiency of the braking system and spoilers because by the time reverse thrust levels are high enough to significantly reduce the landing run, the brakes have done their job and cut speeds back down to where reverse is least effective. Using idle reverse as a perceived precaution in case sudden high reverse is needed late in the landing run, is simply a contradiction of facts. Reverse is most effective if applied at high speed and quite ineffective at low speed.

BOAC
11th Jul 2007, 15:02
Well, Centaurus, unusually for you 'a miss is as good as a mile':). Using reverse IDLE down to normal taxy speed has a significant effect on the amount of braking required and therefore on both brake life and temperatures. If you are familiar with reverse thrust, even on high bypass engines, you will be aware of this retardation as there is a noticable forward 'kick' when the reversers are stowed from idle. Therefore I follow both company and Boeing SOPs and leave them deployed down to taxy speed - where it assists with my required speed reduction. Where it don't I stows 'em.

A far as 'taking control' goes, I have found over the years of command that few F/Os judge braking for a planned (or required) exit correctly, and as someone has said above it is often necessary to take over 'early') to avoid either a hairy (very) high-speed exit or a funeral march to the next with someone up me chuff. I suspect it is yet another of those points glossed over or ignored during the rush to line train, and that is where 90% of the problems arise, as they will NOT find consistency on the line. I also suspect that the incorrect 'stowage' of reverse feeds through from line training too.

I would suggest that the random scatter of take-over should be viewed by F/Os as what is generally accepted by competent well trained crews as commonsense airmanship

Centaurus
12th Jul 2007, 14:34
Using reverse IDLE down to normal taxy speed has a significant effect on the amount of braking required and therefore on both brake life and temperatures

BOAC. Point well taken. I misinterpreted your meaning when you mentioned redeployment of the thrust reversers. I thought you meant that by redeployng you were intending to apply full reverse again. Of course you are correct for the reasons offered when advising use of idle reverse until at taxi speed.

BOAC
12th Jul 2007, 16:49
.........I think the point of 'take-over' would have been somewhat earlier if I anticipated the need to apply full reverse:)

frozenboxhauler
12th Jul 2007, 17:58
If the runway conditions are fine and they fly a good airplane, I'll let them have the controls until the we're on the high-speed taxi way. 90 degree taxi ways are right out as we only have one tiller. This is all briefed prior to the approach.
fbh

ZAZOO
13th Jul 2007, 18:45
Hi there,

I fly in Nigeria as a first officer for a local airline here on the 737-200.

I came direct to the right sit with training captains after sim and also after observing for about 60hrs on the jump. before that I had not flown for about 5yrs and the largest airplane I flew last was the Seminole. Today I have over 1500hrs on the 737-200.

Our company sop is simple all things being normal the Captain calls out 80kts I have control and he closes the reversers and comes to a full stop or as the case may be roll her unto the next exit and then turn off. Today some captains allow me to stop the airplane to a full stop and then they take over the controls for exit and taxi. I have had one or two who even allow me to steer the plane to the next exit and then start a turn off with my rudders before taking control.

I believe this is good for the f/o but must come with experience.
I remember not too long ago when I would come in and land a little bit to the right or left of the centerline HHmmm sometimes bit more if u catch my drift or when the wind was quite strong and had a little difficulty on finals or maybe just a tot too high and start floating down the runway the captain would most times take controls quicker than expected, I believe this is only normal there ere times I felt relief when they did.
Remember the responsibility is with him and his got the experience. The runway could be wet or short or maybe u have left a lot of runway behind you !!! believe me he will have controls earlier, its his responsibility.

On the other hand in a small airline like ours u get to fly with the same captains on a regular basis and I most say this helps a lot cos they get to see your progress and then can allow u do a little bit more because they are comfortable with your handling and by the time you know it he lets u stop the airplane comfortably while building your confidence too. And if your lucky leaves u with a comment like " u coming on very well Jack, nice one and well managed".

But remember not all captains are the same they also have their limits about how far u can go, some have very fast response skills and are more relaxed than the others and give u a little bit more of a chance to see if you can correct and redeem your image but some will not hesitate to intervene quicker. Believe me its good to have them both.

Today I really do not care when the captain wants the airplane All I bother about is to put it right there nicely or firmly ( not like the one I did last night in Libreville :sad::sad: Lord have mercy what an arrival :\) depending on the runway conditions with closed throttles, exit the wind correction if any wind then put the nose down engage the reversers stay on xnterline as she slows down and at 80kts depending on whos next to me hand over the controls or close the buckets while gently applying brakes without wobbling and voila.

So yes the sop says at 80kts but if I might add what was happening before 80kts!!!!

All the best and Safe Flights.

Zaz

alexban
15th Jul 2007, 19:08
Normally,I call '60 kt's' ,monitor reversers to idle and announce 'my control' but , if the FO did a long flare,or late braking ,or if i think we need heavier braking to be able to expedite vacating, i will start braking while announcing 'my controls' .
It works all the time.

Capt Claret
15th Jul 2007, 22:06
717 rather than 737 but in my Co, SOP is for the captain to take control at the 40kt call (calls are 80kts/60kts/40kts).

It is rare to have planned exit point briefed, and as mentioned by others not uncommon to just miss one taxiway and than have to crawl to the next (or the turning node), possibly with another aircraft up one's chuff.

liklikrokrok
16th Jul 2007, 01:56
If I was a 73 F:p I would hand over after the c:ok:pt. initiates the HOTO..otherwise I would bring the aircraft to a stop and ask for tow.

Dream Land
16th Jul 2007, 04:31
Why not just take a couple of seconds during your brief and mention at what stage, providing all goes to plan, control will be passed from right to left. Then providing nothing out of the ordinary comes along all concerned know whats going on by Capt Drag Excellent, and since it is now a briefed item, the First Officer can now release control to the CA, much more civilized than " my airplane" or "I have control".
xx
Although there is no limitation for idle reverse, it is a good operating practice to get them stowed to prevent fan erosion.

Centaurus
16th Jul 2007, 11:03
(calls are 80kts/60kts/40kts).


Are all these calls mandated by the aircraft manufacturer? If not what is the point of the calls and what action does the PF take if the calls are not made. Seems like an overkill to me although I have never operated the aircraft. Boeing have a 60 knot call as reminder for slowly coming out of reverse but it is not clear whether this is an indicated airspeed or ground speed call.

Rainboe
16th Jul 2007, 14:44
Excellent, and since it is now a briefed item, the First Officer can now release control to the CA, much more civilized than " my airplane" or "I have control".
Nonsense! There's an undercurrent of 'prima donna-ism' running through this thread. It's quite simple. On the Captain's call of 'I have control', as the co-pilot, you simply take your hands off and reply 'you have control'. As simple as that! It may leave the co-pilot with the feeling of not having quite completed his procedure, but that's that. I take over when I see the exit I want to make and I know how to achieve it. The co-pilot does not need to plan anything or complete anything, just let go- nothing more. It is no longer his responsibility to complete the landing roll.

Briefings are long enough and complicated enough without adding totally unnecessary items. when people are painfully pedantic in briefing as it is, I ask if we were to get a runway change, would they like me to ask to go to the hold so they can run through it all again!

Capt Claret
16th Jul 2007, 18:57
Centaurus
From the 717 FCOM NP.80.4

Landing/Rollout Procedure

PF
At 80 KIAS, smoothly move reverse thrust levers to be in idle reverse detent by 60 KIAS. Move reverse levers to forward idle position and stow by 40 KIAS.

If First Officer is the PF, transfer airplane control to the Captain when reversers are stowed.

PNF
Monitor airspeed during deceleration. At 80 KIAS, call "80 KNOTS". At 60 KIAS call "60 KNOTS". At 40 KIAS, call "40 KNOTS".

Denti
16th Jul 2007, 19:30
Usually its a "you have control" around 60 with reverser idle but not stowed when im PF. Normally i do make the exit i plan to but sometimes it happens that i miss it and the captain takes it earlier, of course i dont have any problem with it after all he has more experience than me as a junior FO (4.5k hours shorthaul average sector length 1:10), not to mention he is the only one with a tiller.

On complete role reversal flights (which is possible under our SOPs) i keep control until entering the stand, however during tight turns the captain has to use the tiller in order to make it, however the rest is done from my side. That is of course a very rare thing to do.

Dream Land
16th Jul 2007, 20:27
complicated enough without adding totally unnecessary items I agree with your point as far as keeping the briefing short and sweet, I do however feel that FO's don't really want, and IMO don't really need the aircraft yanked away from them at 60 to 70 knots.

rjay259
16th Jul 2007, 21:07
Talking of keeping the briefing short it would take 1-2 seconds more to say i will take it off the HST and then let me know when you will take control.

Otherwise it should be if you want to hand over control "you have control" wait for captain to say "i have control" and then release the controls. It goes from PPL training does it not.

259:cool:

BOAC
16th Jul 2007, 22:16
- 'ang about here! Whatever happened to involving the F/O in the planning of the exit on his/her landing - autobrake, reverse, taxy route whatever? How else are they going to learn?

(Then, when they've planned it and are slowing for it, grab it off them with a shout of banzai!:D)

Human Factor
17th Jul 2007, 00:57
I will generally let the FO take it onto the RET on the pedals or brake to an appropriate taxi speed for a 90 degree turnoff. Haven't needed to intervene so far.... :ok:

flash2002
17th Jul 2007, 01:03
From not being able to land in 25kts cross being able to land in 35kts. From not being able to brake for an exit, being able to steer it like michael schumacher. And all this in 1 day!

What happened when they pinned that 4rd stripe on your shoulder. Got hit by the holy spirit or something? How do you expect f/o's to gain experience?

You need to do it a couple of times to see how hard you need to brake but it ain't rocket science. Keep track of the groundspeed and realise what taxyspeed you need for a highspeed turnoff/ 90 degree turn. And offcourse pick a sensible autobrake setting.

Centaurus
17th Jul 2007, 14:41
How do you expect f/o's to gain experience?



In the simulator where no one gets hurt if a cock-up happens?

BOAC
17th Jul 2007, 16:41
I trust that was 'TIC', Centaurus? A few times every six months? "OK bring it to a halt"/"parking brake on"/"resetting".............

No, in the cockpit, on his/her landing - and I have yet to see the potential for 'a cock-up' in that scenario.

Denti
17th Jul 2007, 18:59
Nobody that cannot land and end the landing roll safely in different conditions should be on the flightdeck operating any aircraft, but of course there is a learning curve which is rather steep in the beginning. Which is probably the reason why most airlines have supervision periods (or linetraining, however you wanna call it), some up to 3 months and the longer the better in my opinion.

flash2002
17th Jul 2007, 20:35
In the sim???? You must be joking:ugh::ugh:

Centaurus
18th Jul 2007, 13:27
Nobody that cannot land and end the landing roll safely in different conditions should be on the flightdeck operating any aircraft

As a matter of interest, one of the most effective methods of teaching the potential dangers of an unstabilised approach can be "safely" demonstrated in the simulator and no one gets hurt.
The instructor simply gives himself a 15 knot tailwind on a short wet runway and deliberately makes an unstable approach by coming in high and fast (Vref + 15), floats in an attempt to make a smooth landing and after touch down applies all retardation devices. Done "correctly" the aircraft slides off the far end of the runway and into the localiser aerials along with mud.
This little practical demonstration shows the pilots under training what can happen if they persist with an approach that obviously requires a go-around. Having actually observed at first hand that even the instructor cannot land safely under those conditions, it is hoped that the crews under training will always remember that scenario in the future. If in real life they then observe a similar scenario unfolding, they are more likely to insist on a go-around.

flash2002
16th Aug 2007, 01:00
go-around????

I thought we were talking about the landing roll and braking?