Pilot Incap drills & difficulties

[blue up]

Hello chaps and chapesses.

I've been given the job of submitting some material to form the basis of the Pilot Incap section of our refresher course this year and wondered if there were any CC viewpoints that I could put across. Anyone got any useful input that gives the story from the CC position? How comfortable are you with the idea of being asked to read checklists or find Jeppesen plates if needed? How hard is it to strap FD into their seats from your position? How much initial training and retraining do you get in Incap?

I'm an FO for Thomsonfly on the 757/767 but will also have to make some input on the 733/738, although I've never even been onboard either of them.

As usual, some timely input from CC might save me from looking like a complete Ar5e!:ok:

[oldflyboy]

As ex BA ,now flybe I have experienced lots of incap pilot training. The best is when you can do on board, with a 'heavy' pilot that the crew have to physically manhandle about. We all found this very helpful. some tips include already having crotch strap fastened to save embarrassment, especially if pilot utilised is female. Tell it in the classroom simply, then demonstrate and practise on board or in realistic mock up. BA's drill routines are great. Cabin crew start reading at request of pilot flying aircraft; hand up palm out is a stop command ( pilot called on rt for example), thumbs up to proceed. crew should revert back to start of section being read out if interrupted at all. works well with us. Good Luck!:ok:

[oldbalboy]

as a tfly cabin crew trainer crew get a video on sep and practical on trienniel, when we do it practically we go at you from behind and never from side because of space constraints on 737, i tend to get a larger person to play the role of the pilot so they can appreciate the weight they may deal with, we insist the 3 lower points of the harness are already in place so there cant be any claims of sexual misconduct and get them to heave the unconcious pilot off controls before we fix remainder of harness and complete the drill, this also includes, imc , jeppsens and checklists.

[blue up]

How many TFLY (or any other) CC could find the Gatwick 26L approach chart in the Jepps if I needed it in a hurry? IIRC from many years ago, there was not an attempt to demonstrate how to actually do this. The training seemed to end at "...and you might be asked to find a page in a big brown book".

Not any sort of CC critiscism, just a case of me not knowing the full story. I'm not back in work for a few days so I don't have the opportunity to ask anyone there for their oppinions.

Thanks

[oldbalboy]

personally i do ask trainees to find a specific airports landing charts in the nav bag during practical training!

[ScottyDoo]

How many TFLY (or any other) CC could find the Gatwick 26L approach chart in the Jepps if I needed it in a hurry?

Why not just do it for yourself, just like you would if the other guy was still in on the act...??? :rolleyes:

By the time you explain the set-up to the dolly, then wait while she thumbs through it in a tizz, you'll be declaring a fuel emergency on top of your fat-pilot-cardiac-emergency.

If you can't fly the thing single-pilot in a pinch, perhaps you're in the wrong job.

[sinala1]

If you can't fly the thing single-pilot in a pinch, perhaps you're in the wrong job
Now now don't be like that dear :}, he is helping write a training course - not talking about his own aviation abilities...

Not exactly sure what the Tfly refreshers include, but I suggest as previously mentioned a reminder of basic radio use as well - I encourage all crew I fly with to go up front and learn how to use the radio in the (unlikely) event they have to. The ones who show a heightened level of interest/ability, I also recommend they know where/what the squawk is, and how to change it should the unfortunate ( :eek: ) event of double-pilot incapacitation arise. Highly highly unlikely, granted, but knowledge is a good thing...

As for the pilot involved, our airline changed our procedures to say now that we can remove the pilot from the seat based on the able-pilots directions. Going to be a pretty hard task, especially for some of our smaller crew - but obviously worth it if it saves a life!

As for the charts/jeps etc, practice makes perfect I guess - particularly with the jeps - make a game out of it (in the refresher) - give a prize to the person who can locate the chart for XXX the quickest etc. This will give them an idea of the layout of the folder, should the (unlikely) event rise that they need to help.

Hope that helps! :)

[blue up]

During their initial training our CC are told that they might be required to read the checklist and find Jepp plates on demand. Seems a bit of a dim instruction if they aren't shown what they look like. Likewise, the In-flight performance and landing distance etc are available either on the laptop (waaaaay too slow) or via the paper manual on the skippers' side. (ScottyDoo. My arms aren't long enought to reach across. Know what the manual looks like?)

[CamelhAir]

I wouldn't waste too much time looking for charts unless you have plenty of time.
Far better to ask immediate vectors, thus relieving you of navigation and terrain issues. Also ask ATC for the MSA.
ATC will also provide the localiser frequency, course and minima. That should be enough to get you onto terra firma and you can worry about taxiing thereafter.

[BestonBoard]

Pilot Incap just needs to be thorough as far as I'm concerned! Run through the Jeppesens or Aerad ... Being faced by a birdseye of LAX on Finals may be a little daunting to a newbie...
Lay out from the beginning what you expect... if you are training them, tell them what thumbs up, Halt means etc... and stress they must repeat if they don't hear the correct confirmation from you!
One thing I would add... Have had a captain show me here... His exact words were ... If you do find both of us keeled over, put on a headset, presh this button (PTT) and scream for your life... someone will hear you!
I do think basic radio functionality... at least for Senior Crew Members may be of benefit... Yes I appreciate in the event of a Pilot Incap it is a junior crew member that should remain on the deck, but if it's a newbie with a lot of new information in their head, the SCCM is not going to let them suffer. Heck most airlines have 2 seniors on board nowadays anyway... (at least... depends who was on sby that morning! lol)

[blue up]

BB.

Sound advice! There doesn't exist any time or money in the current training prog to teach CC how to use the radio but (with a little shove during the refresher course this year) I'm sure it could become a popular exercise on night sectors to teach CC how to work the basics.

The Helios incident. Do I recall that the CC guy in the flightdeck had some flying experience? Any indication that he tried to use the radios?

[MrHorgy]

When I trained with Tfly we were show how to restrain a pilot and where the checklists were but that's about it. I find that practical demonstrations are always good though as we did in our aircraft visit, having someone (preferably a male from the course) play dead and flap around playing dead also helped. Plus amused me when 3 girls were pulling me about in the seat :ok:

I never understood why we didn't get any instruction regarding how to summon help - perhaps this was just for senior crew. There were musings at some point about having SCCM's sit in on Sim Sessions, that seemed like a good idea to me.

Horgy