Engine fire in flight question

[flying shrink]

I am doing my cpl and I am aware of the UK CAA supplement to the "engine fire in flight" procedure (for Robinson R22/44).

The FAR Robinson book says:
1. Autorotation
2. Master bat off
3. Cabin heat off
4. Cabin vent on
5. If engine is running, perform normal landing and thereafter shut off fuel valve
6. If engine stops running, shut off fuel valve and execute auto landing...

The UK CAA supplement:
1. Enter auto
2. Pull mixture
3. Shutt off fuel valve
4.Execute auto landing ...

Can I please ask those of you with lots of experience etc. what you would do in a real life engine fire situation. I wonder if it is not better to keep the engine running and perform at least a landing that would enable me to exit the a/c quickly, as oppose to a bad, under stress, auto, top the a\c over and then perhaps be stuck in the a\c burning. Those with many hours and lots of auto experience might prefer the UK option, but I am wondering about most of the ppl's, including myself, without the experience.

Any thoughts on this?
Thanks
FS

[Brilliant Stuff]

Well I would leave the electricity on for starters this way you can talk to atc until you arrive on the ground ( this I was taught by my excellent instructor). As for the fire I would go into auto check I still have an engine and then use it to land promptly.

[puntosaurus]

Well on the 22 the question is a little moot, since it's not clear how you'd spot an engine fire before the donkey quit anyhow. Even on the 44 I think it's a brave man that pulls the mixture simply because of a light on the dash.

I think you've got to think about what else would be happening, and how you'd react to it. If my a*** was on fire I'd probably pull the mixture.

[212man]

The number one priority in the case of an inflight fire is to put it out. In the case of a single engine helicopter this, sadly, means shutting the engine down as the primary means of achieving this! I'd agree with the CAA view point.

Have a think about what's in the immediate viscinity of an R22 engine bay that's burning: tail boom attachment, fuel tank, tail rotor cables?

For anyone in doubt about how bad it is to be on fire in the air, google the Swissair MD-11, the Everglades DC-9 (Northwest Airlines?) or, closer to home, the Bristow Coastguard S-61, G-BBHM, in 2002 (landed 83 seconds after first warning, MGB fell through ceiling 3 minutes after warning!) and so it goes on.

Fire is probably the single common danger facing pilots since the beggining of flight.

[IHL]

I would confirm I had a fire first before I shut it down for a "Fire Light".
You can confirm it by turning the aircraft to see if you're trailing smoke; there will also be some unusual instrument readings (if you have a fire in the engine bay you'll be getting some weird indications as the wires in the compartement burn through and short out.)

Once the fire is confirmed I would do 1 of 2 things.
1- If I was on approach I would continue to a landing.
2- If I was cruising along and had a fire I would shut it down.

PS: I have had several false engine fire lights in my career but no actual fires.

[SASless]

212man,

How many hundred bogus fire lights did we have on the 212's?

Chinooks would show fire lights while flying in heavy rain....only to go away with a few minutes in the dry.

Absent any overt sign of a fire beyond a mere 5000 Watt Red Light shining in the crew's quarters....I would not get excited.

We must discuss engine fires apart from electrical fires and other fires to be accurate in laying out our individual thoughts.

I have no personal knowledge of anyone that has had a proper engine fire without some other or multiple other indications of a fire beyonds the great red Tee Handle light.

If your cab is alight it will tell you by more than a solitary light. IMHO!

One must remember the CAA expects to hear certain buzz words and phrases regurgitated at specified times during check rides.....independent thought is neither appreciated or desired at such times.

[212man]

SAS, the question was about a fire in an R22; as far as I know, there is no fire 'light' in that a/c, and therefore the questions assumes sound evidence that you are ACTUALLY on fire!

The question of response to fire warning lights is a whole different thread!

[Perro Rojo]

Since it's an R22 couldn't one just pedal faster until you are on the ground???

[jellycopter]

I reckon the biggest clue will be the smell of burning.

I had a small piece of foam rubber insulating material become detached and fell onto the exhaust of a helicopter. The rubber started to smoulder and produce smoke and acrid fumes. These fumes came into the cabin whilst I was in the cruise and despite the fact that the exhaust was in fresh air behind the cabin. There were no other indications.

Needless to say, I stuck it on the ground sharpish! I was only at 500ft so I elected to keep the engine running although I auto'd to the ground and didn't need it.

I was always taught ( and indeed always teach my students) to confirm the fire is real and then shut the engine down, however, don't shut it down until you can make a reasonable engine-off landing site. That means the option of keeping it going for a few seconds to make it over the undulating ploughed field onto the flat newly cut stubble field for example.

Also the kind of smell is a big clue. You can't mistake electrical burning for anything else. Also, hot glass fibre composite has a trade-mark stench.

Finally, don't slam it into a field if you've just passed a power station or other such industrial polluter - sometimes the smells they give off can be quite disconcerting!

Happy flying!

JJ

[puntosaurus]

SAS, the question was about a fire in an R22; as far as I know, there is no fire 'light' in that a/c, and therefore the questions assumes sound evidence that you are ACTUALLY on fire!
I think the MANUAL (or at least the CAA supplement) assumes sound evidence that you are actually on fire, but the QUESTION flying shrink has asked actually begs precisely that issue.

If you absolutely know you've got an engine fire, then shutting off the fuel flow is good sense. If you're not sure then it's probably the first step of turning a drama into a crisis.

I may be projecting my own prejudices on the situation but IMHO the original (US, FAA approved) manual is written from a practical pilot's perspective, whereas the CAA not untypically has taken a rather lawyerly approach to the situation - ie. if you know you have a fire then shut it down. Well Duh !

But to show I'm not completely biased I came across an unrelated situation recently where the CAA approach was actually vindicated. To much grumbling from US manufacturers, the CAA insists on a Low Voltage warning light to indicate when the alternator is not working properly. I flew a plank (horror !) in the US recently and fortunately had an instructor with me who spotted that when the flaps were set, the ammeter showed a discharge. Since the ammeter is buried way over on the other side of the a/c I very much doubt if I'd have spotted it on my own, so would have run out of electrics a few minutes later over Nantucket sound. Nice !

[212man]

I guess it's symantics: I read "what you would do in a real life engine fire situation" and assumed he meant you really were on fire.

Like lots of things, you can't always be too prescriptive to cater for every eventuality. I once did a check ride in a light SE aeroplane and was told I had "an engine fire" about 600 ft after take off. I elected to turn back with the engine running and then shut it down, working on the basis that I rather land in a pile on an airfield with RFF provisions than on an expressway/Shopping Mall parking lot! The Instructor/check-pilot took another view, and criticised me for continuing flying, and suggested the land straight ahead with the engine shutdown option was the only sensible course of action (and this was Florida with an FAA check pilot!)

As others have said, by all means spend 20 seconds or so gaining a fighting chance before shutting down, but don't start talking about 2-3 minutes, or you may not be the one making the decisions any more!:uhoh:

(Again, with the proviso: you know you ARE on fire!)

[puntosaurus]

HaHaHa. Very good ! Nicely put.

[[email protected]]

A chap I knew had an engine fire caption on short finals to a field, on NVG, and the student in the RHS confirmed there was a bright glow above and behind his head where the Stbd engine was burning. It took less than a minute to get the aircraft on the ground and to start shutting down, but in that time the port fire warning illuminated also! The aircraft was underslung out of the field and back to base where it transpired that the fire in the of the stbd engine bay had got to the point where the aluminium structure of the transmission deck was starting to liquify and the next event was probably going to be the TR driveshaft melting.

This fire was the result of a fuel leak from a high pressure pipe - hence the advice from the CAA to shutdown the engine if you are on fire - remove the source of ignition and you might make it to the ground, keep the engine going because you don't want to do an EOL and you might not have to bother.

My mate was lucky since he was close to the ground, he would have had to shut down one engine to use the extinguisher but elected to make an expeditious approach and landing on two engines. With hindsight he might have chosen a different option.

[Spacer]

Crab, sorry, but is this what you were talking about : S61 Engine Fire (http://www.caaerg.org.uk/docs/33/factor200421.pdf). Either way, this certainly got my attention when I first read it!

[[email protected]]

Spacer - no, that was a different but very interesting incident that a Bristows crew had at Portland - just goes to show what a fire can do!

[rotorfossil]

In the R22, although it has no fire warning system, any untoward event in the engine bay, fire/smoke/serious oil leak you will know about because the airflow seems to be forward along the centre console and into the cockpit.
The best advice (which can't possibly cover all eventualities) is: if there is a big bang/grinding noises suggesting major derangement, shut it down and do an auto.If there is smoke but the engine still appears to be running normally, do a low powered approach ASAP and be prepared for it to go bang.

[puntosaurus]

I think there's a huge difference between the big iron and the little Robinsons here, and that's why the Robbie posters here are a little more equivocal. We have such simple hardware that engine fires are vanishingly unlikely and probably (who knows ?) quite benign. I agree if you've got a high pressure fuel system, it's a whole different ball of wax.

[NickLappos]

The differences between the two types (large transports and small normal catagory rotorcraft) is night and day, and NOT in the small helo's favor:

Part 29 requires fire zone integrity that is massive, so that the fire zone withstands the fire almost like a home oil burner firebox, for at least 15 minutes. Also, the fire detectors and extinguishers are all required as part of the design.

Part 27 has none of this at all, so that a fire can rapidly spin out of control in a "normal" helo that a transport can withstand with impunity. However, most recips have no fuel pressurization in the fire zone, so as punto says, the chances are smaller.

My read on how to manage a suspected fire in a small recip helo? Do NOT shut down the engine if you THINK there is a fire, just land really fast. Enter auto if you KNOW there is a fire, and then shutdown that engine, close the fuel valve and make a nice landing.

In a transport, you have minutes to diagnose, fix the problem and follow the checklist.

[diethelm]

I am with Nick. No way I am shutting it down or shutting the fuel and the engine unless I see really big flames or I am feeling very warm. I have a fire extinguisher and I can jump out in a second and put it out or at least grab the camera for a final picture. Although certainly US specific, single engines in the US are typically about 500 - 700 feet and you can get to the ground in seconds with power on. Why risk a power off auto when in reality, most true engine off autos in a real situation end up in bent aircraft which has a higher chance of bent or broken body parts on people.

The nose is the best instinct and as a second indication, I have my hook mirror turned to the aft so in the event I smell something, I can look into it and try to see smoke or the glow of flames. Although there are no statistics, my bet is that most times when we smell smoke it is some form of electrical smoldering or the burning of a lubricant and not a true fuel fire. I am not going to raise the risk parameter by shutting down unless I am fairly convinced the source of flame, smoke or smell is actually fuel.

I have had a situation where there was a smell of something burning. Landed quickly and it was a leak in a cooling line to the main rotor gear box. Tons of smoke. Shut down, made the call and waited for a mechanic. Worst part was a Robinson brought the mechanic and the part and the driver handed me a sales brochure for a new R44.......

What I love about the R22 POH is that in the event of fire it tells you to put the fire out with a blanket or dirt. How many people carry a fire retardent blanket in their R22?

[flying shrink]

Thanks for the replies! All comments are thought provoking. The R22 does not have a engine fire light. Therefore it is possible that you will most probably know you have an engine fire by the time you really have one! However, the R44 has the light, and I take the point that you might get a false light on and therefore have to really look, listen,feel and smell for other indication before you pull the mixture and shut off fuel valve.

Thanks!
FS

[Phil77]

Apologies if this is off topic:

:eek: :\ :ugh::ugh:

http://www.robinsonheli.com/srvclib/rchsn40.pdf

Robinson Helicopter Company
Safety Notice SN-40
Issued: Jul 2006

POSTCRASH FIRES
There have been a number of cases where helicopter or light plane occupants have survived an accident only to be severely burned by fire following the accident. To reduce the risk of injury in a postcrash fire, it is strongly recommended that a fire-retardant Nomex flight suit, gloves, and hood or helmet be worn by all occupants.
Another reassuring notice how safe robbies are (I guess after you lost your main rotor in flight you won't need a nomex suit :E), or at least how eager somebody tries to cover his a**.
No intention to open a whole new can of worms...

I probably would try to land too if I only suspect a fire.