Parallel Entry (Sector 1) Question

[Private Patjarr]

Gooday all.

Call me anal, but I am just trying to clear up a little technical point I have been pondering regarding Parallel sector entries.

AIP/JEPP states that for entry from sector one;

"on reaching the holding fix, the aircraft is turned onto an outbound heading for an appropriate amount of time, then turned onto the holding side to intercept the inbound track"

Im not quite sure how everybody does this, but I concieve two ways.

1. Passing over the fix turn onto the exact reciprocal of the inbound for the time required, then back inbound (this would take the aircraft through the desired inbound track).

2. Passing over the fix, fly a heading for a certain amount of time (not necessarily the recpirocal of the inbound) which gives an appropriate amount of spacing such that when the turn back inbound is made, the aircraft is more or less positioned on the inbound track.

Can anyone comment on how you would fly this?

Cheers

[helopat]

Generally I fly the outbound (reciprocal corrected for wind) as soon as I pass over the fix. I believe that the diagram on the DAPS actually shows that the aircraft may pass through the inbound before reestablishing on the actual inbound bearing/radial. I'm quite sure that there are people who do it the other way.

Not too big a deal as long as (for a sector one) you don't deviate TOO far off the reciprocal to the inbound...if you did, it'd be like doing a sector 2 on the opposite side.

My 2 cents worth.

HP

[Howard Hughes]

It is called a Parallel entry, because you do exactly that, it is sometimes called the 'offset entry'.

The technique requires that you parallel your inbound track, before turning inbound within the confines of the protected race track pattern.

[Capn Bloggs]

Private,

You must do (1). That keeps the aircraft track near the holding pattern. Your (2) is the same as the "teardrop" entry (is that a sector 2?!). You can extend laterally on a teardrop as you are in the middle of the holding pattern. I don't think you should extend "away" from the pattern to build in enough offset to rollout on the inbound if in a parallel sector.

[jarjar]

Actually quick correction HH, youv'e probably picked it up by yourself,
The offset entry is sector 2.

JarJar

[Private Patjarr]

Thanks Guys

After an hour or so it dawned on me that to do option 1 would be an offset! Hardly affords you of the airspace protection of the holding pattern.

Cheers guys.

[Howard Hughes]

Ooops!:O
Just goes to show you don't need to know the names to be able to do them!;)

[Icarus2001]

Hardly affords you of the airspace protection of the holding pattern.
Most holds are conducted at the 10 or 25 nm MSA, are you thinking that you are going to go outside 10nm allowing for wind?

Sector 1 - Parallel entry, plan to intercept the inbound by turning through the track.

Sector 2 - Offset - A base turn...nowhere in Jepps is it called teardrop

Sector 3 - Direct

P - O - D

[Hugh Jarse]

There's no requirement for you to intercept the inbound track of the hold from a sector 1 (and hasn't been for a few years). You only have to turn to the holding side and track back to the aid.

However, from a CIR "learning" (and common sense) point of view, it's a good idea to intercept the inbound track as it gives you an opportunity to suss out the drift angle that you might need to allow for during the approach, or subsequent holding if necessary. :)

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Huge,

I used to slavishly try and intercept inbound track for sector 1 entries for the reasons you describe until one day an instructor pointed out to me that by flying over the aid AND then turning to parallel (and sure, you're taking a stab at the wind effect) and so getting deliberately 'outside' the racetrack makes it easier to turn inbound an intercept the inbound track.

Sure enough, the frantic chaos I used to go through trying to make a 225+ degree turn and reintecept the inbound track after flying outbound on it suddenly became far easier as the inbound is intercepted much earlier, allowing you to actualy assess the real inbound drift in the 45-odd seconds you've got left until reaching the aid.

This is what the diagrams infer is allowed/required and it made life much easier.

Private,

The holding pattern, per-se, offers no 'protection' of any form - unless I'm mistaken (which is possible) - all holding patterns will have a 'min alt' that corresponds to the MSA requirements of the area - that's where your protection comes from. Prescribing sector entry patterns, apart from making it easier for you, merely ensures you'll be in the expected piece of airspace overhead the aid when holding - more important in CTA I guess!

Hope this helps,

UTR

[THE IRON MAIDEN]

I was tought to maitain your heading past the aid for about 5 to 10 sec.
then turn parallel (correct for wind) for 1min for a 1 min pattern (1.5mins for a 2min pattern) then come back on the inboud track.

But I only just passed my CIR initial so my two cents isnt worth as much as some of the others.

:sad:

[Tee Emm]

I was tought to maitain your heading past the aid for about 5 to 10 sec

Unfortunately, your instructor gave you wrong information. The turn to parallel the inbound track (Sector 1 known as parallel entry) is done as soon as you have passed over the navaid. See AIP. There is no technical requirement to continue beyond the aid for several seconds before turning to parallel - although it is common to see pilots doing it.

[ROARING RIMAU]

"The holding pattern, per-se, offers no 'protection' of any form - unless I'm mistaken (which is possible) - all holding patterns will have a 'min alt' that corresponds to the MSA requirements of the area - that's where your protection comes from. Prescribing sector entry patterns, apart from making it easier for you, merely ensures you'll be in the expected piece of airspace overhead the aid when holding - more important in CTA I guess!"

Sorry mate, but you are mistaken.

Have a look at the Albury RWY 25 NDB or VOR plate - the holding is below the MSA.

The holding pattern, like every other approach or departure "pattern" gives obstacle protection as long as the pilot flies the procedure, and associated sector entries, as set out in AIP.


If the holding pattern does not overly the MSA obstacle then you should be allowed to hold at a lower level.

If an airfield was 15nm or so, south of Mt Everest, and the holding pattern was to the south of the aid, would you want to hold 1000ft above Everest?

[Private Patjarr]

Thankyou all for you thoughts. Always much appreciated.

With respect to protection, It seems I have used the word in the wrong context. I had meant to use the term in regards to airspace protection which I saw was in Pans Ops while I was trying to research the procedure myself. (Not meaning to use the word in reference to terrain!)

Who would have thought parallel entries could have provoked such conversation!

Cheers again to all.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Thanks - I knew someone would prove me wrong!

I'll modify my statement from 'MSA requirements' to 'local obstacle requirements' which of course then changes the whole jist of my answer (and improves my understanding!)

So I wonder if this means that when doing a parallel entry, you can't descend to min holding alt until established inbound again? I suppose it does.

I was curious about Albany 32 NDB where the minimum holding altitude is higher than the 10nm MSA - I guess by the time you add tolerances then maybe you are at risk of getting outside 10nm.

UTR

[fixa24]

The holding pattern can be below the MSA, but that doesn't include the sector entry. the sector entry as i understand it needs to be done at the MSA, then once established in the hold, descent to holding altitude is allowed...

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"Who would have thought parallel entries could have provoked such conversation!"

I would!

This is the forum with:

a 4 or 5 page discussion on how to start a PA28 !!! .... and,

a 7 page discussion on how to land a C182 !!!

etc, etc, etc

Dr:cool:

[roger doger]

Having not done any IFR since my CIR test a while back, I'm a bit rusty, but how is it that you can do a sector entry into a holding pattern at the holding altitude if it is below MSA as DirectAnywhere suggests?

If this is the case, when do you descend from MSA to the holding altitude without flying over the aid first?

just curious.

[THE IRON MAIDEN]

IF you come in on a track that has a LSALT lower then the MSA you can.

[Chimbu chuckles]

If track LSA is not low enough then you would need to be at MORA/25nm MSA until reaching the fix (DME dist/radial, radial/radial or GPS/IRS derived waypoint) the holding pattern is predicated on and then descend to the minimum holding altitude during the sector entry or once established in the hold. That minimum holding altitude is based on the highest obstacle within a protected area around the holding pattern...or it may be predicated on lower limit CTA, 500' above LL CTA rings a bell...as a result if you conform to the tracking requirements and speed limits of the procedure you're protected at the minimum holding altitude.

The sector 1 entry is displayed as it is for a very simple reason...you track past the fix and then turn onto a heading to make good a track reciprocal to the inbound track...basic physics suggests you will be parralleling the inbound track offset some distance depending on TAS...after the prescribed time interval you turn left/right to intercept the inbound track from inside the holding pattern. Rather like the sector 2 (teardrop) entry where you are inside the pattern throughout.

Why try to turn a sector 1 into, effectively, a sector 2 on the wrong side of the pattern?:rolleyes:

[Capt Fathom]

"Who would have thought parallel entries could have provoked such conversation!"
I would!
This is the forum with:
a 4 or 5 page discussion on how to start a PA28 !!! .... and,
a 7 page discussion on how to land a C182 !!!
etc, etc, etc
Dr

I think we've got holding pattern entries nailed....!

Now...how long is a piece of string? Anyone? :E

[conflict alert]

I'm absolutely staggered that you people are talking about a basic holding pattern entry procedure..there is parallel, offset, and direct, each being quite a set procedure. If you guys/gals don't know the difference...then you ought not to be flying, let alone passed a flight test......absolutely staggered.

[Tee Emm]

Nup. Enter the hold via the sector entry at the holding altitude. There is no requirement to enter at the MSA.

I can just see the ATSB report now. The cause of this fatal accident was the pilot in command elected to descend on track to the holding aid in order to arrive at the holding fix at the published holding altitude. The published holding altitude was 4000 ft and the lowest safe altitude for the sector he was arriving from was 6900 ft. The aircraft impacted terrain at 5100 ft at a distance of 20 miles from the holding fix.

[jetstar1]

Now...how long is a piece of string? Anyone?

Exactly twice the length of half the string :ok:

[Capt Fathom]

Tee Emm, I never advocated descending below the LSALT/MSA.

Um! Maybe your explanation was misinterpreted!

Nup. Enter the hold via the sector entry at the holding altitude. There is no requirement to enter at the MSA.

[OzExpat]

From a procedure designer's viewpoint, a Pans Ops procedure provides massive holding pattern protection that is, in part, intended to allow for sector entries. Therefore, so long as you've passed the fix on which the pattern is predicated, you CAN commence descent to the lowest holding altitude, if you wish. You can therefore continue descent, as and if necessary, to reach lowest holding altitude DURING the sector entry.

I don't know what's actually being taught, but that's the REAL situation... from a Pans Ops procedure designer's perspective.