Many SAA pilots live abroad?

[mortivflow]

is this true?

Many SAA pilots live abroad and fly in for their duties. Those who live here are able to travel the world, first class, with their families whenever they choose. These are expensive luxuries and they have helped push SAA to the wall.
Ngqula has to reel some of these benefits back in and it will be his achievement here which will most define his success.......

[rockandroll1]

Of course, standby staff travel is dragging the airline down...get a grip!

[congoman]

Motivflow - you've been reading too many B.S interviews with Ngula. I've read his interview with Moneyweb. What a crock of bull! He obvously doesn't listen to the briefings by his advisors very well. (He has to have advisors because he doesn't have a CLUE about what's really going in aviation or at SAA.) You obviously aren't too discerning either. Please tell us how crew traveling on STANDBY, making use of a seat that would have gone EMPTY, is effecting the profitability of SAA? By the way - that's a perk many airlines in the world have for their staff - not just SAA. As rockandroll1 says - get a grip! and please don't believe all the c**p that you read in the newspaper.

[JetNut]

Its a pain to jumpseat between Cpt and Jnb, let alone Perth and Jnb.

One of the senior co-pilots refuses to upgrade to a command slot simply so that she can fly with hubby to Perth. Gone are the days when a pilot's dream was to eventually command a commercial jet. Obviously some people are not in aviation for the flying!

[cavortingcheetah]

:)

That was a careful and considered plan of action on the part of SAA?
A stroke of genius to offer a command position when the company was well aware that it would be declined for reasons of personal gain!
A bold and cunning plan to keep the command seat closed to the fairer sex, those whose capabilities of gender render them unable to master the complexities of lateral thought and manipulative dexterity required to excercise the responsibilities of command?
A very African solution to a very, shall one say, Western quandary.:cool:

[linuxgal]

That was a careful and considered plan of action on the part of SAA?
No, it wasn't. Command at SAA for common-or-garden line pilots goes according to seniority, it is not 'offered' selectively. There are male F/Os who have also deferred their commands for lifestyle reasons.
A bold and cunning plan to keep the command seat closed to the fairer sex, those whose capabilities of gender render them unable to master the complexities of lateral thought and manipulative dexterity required to excercise the responsibilities of command?
Hmmmm... a troll perhaps? What are you going to do next time you board an aircraft with a female captain - get off (let's hope your bag is in the last container for everyone's sake) or just sit and mutter all the way?

[nugpot]

Linuxgal, I suggest you search for some of cavortingcheetah's previous posts. There are only about 1200 of them. You will find that the gentleman in question frequently speaks with tongue firmly in cheek.

The smilie at the top of his post is a usually a good clue......

[JetNut]

The point I was trying to make is that I really don't understand why anyone would refuse a command position. A waste of company money for hiring these guys in the first place...

[I.R.PIRATE]

not in the least. For some its about earning a salary and getting on with the job, regardless of which seat they occupy. If staying right makes a certain lifestyle available to you, then its your own choice. All airlines need FOs so its no hassle if a guy want to be a career co-pilot.

[Q4NVS]

All airlines need FOs so its no hassle if a guy want to be a career co-pilot.

Not True. With longevity, Career FO's cost more...:zzz:

[John Wayne]

Alright everybody, since this conversation is already going in that direction, let's all whip them out, lay them on the table, and see whose is longest.

[Sir Osis of the river]

Jetnut,

You are obviously too young or too selfish to have considered other people in your life.

Yes, most of us got into aviation for the passion of flying. However age and experience tempers that and eventually you need to strike a balance in your life, or get divorced.

:cool:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Life?

Who's got the time for one of those?:}

[JetNut]

Yes, most of us got into aviation for the passion of flying. However age and experience tempers that and eventually you need to strike a balance in your life, or get divorced.

:rolleyes:

Or find another line of work. The point is...that there are individuals who join an airline/fly only for the money. These senior F/O's occupy an expensive position in the seniority system, if they don't want it, then give it to someone that does.

[Sir Osis of the river]

If these "expensive " f/o's were only in it for the money, surely they would move to the Left seat?? AFAIK most airlines pay the left seat more than the right:confused:

They might be high in the seniority, but if they are not in line for promotion, then they are not a threat to anyone. The next one below simply waits their turn and goes ahead in the next slot. Simple:D

[JetNut]

The problem's not after 10 years on the seniority list, but on date of joining. These career co-pilots had originally taken the spot of someone else under the guise of being "under training" for eventual command and yet never intended to pursue this, instead choosing to abuse the regulating agreement by exercising their right not to submit a bid. If they fail a command course, then they will be given a second try, and if they fail for a second time, they are eventually dismissed due to incompetence.

So by choosing to remain as a co-pilot they put themselves in perpetual limbo, therefore never actually exposing themselves to the risk of dismissal, and in the mean time raking in the cash. Airlines need to get rid of these expensive under-achievers W.I.E.

What happens to the guy who was on the waiting list immediately preceeding this career co-pilot on date of joining and probably ended up on an intake 3 years later?:ooh:

[John Wayne]

My nine-year-old reasons more maturely than you do. What's your problem? You still trying to make aviation a career?

[mikemal]

Jetnut

I have been lurking up to now, enjoying both sides of this story. Now it has become personal and I can no longer resist the temptation to reply to your acid post. I have placed elements of your post and added my response to them.

<< These career co-pilots had originally taken the spot of someone else under the guise of being "under training" for eventual command and yet never intended to pursue this>>

You know this for certain do you? Obviously you don't know that the person you are maligning is about 20 places from A340 command and is waiting patiently for her turn there. She fully intends to take up this post

<<, instead choosing to abuse the regulating agreement by exercising their right not to submit a bid.>>

So, in your humble opinion, not submitting a bid is "abusing the regulating agreement? This is a great leap of logic. In addition, upward of 20% of the pilots are then abusing the regulating agreement. In fact the bid process offers you the opportunity to defer your upgrade until you have achieved a certain seniority position, not so? Is this abuse? No, it is using your brain, not your testosterone!

Incidentally, does your retort also include the pilots who hold back their bids so that they can get a Cape Town slot, or the Durban pilots who turn down promotion so that they can get to stay in Durbs?

<< If they fail a command course, then they will be given a second try>>

as will every pilot in the same situation

<<, and if they fail for a second time, they are eventually dismissed due to incompetence. >>

as with every other pilot. Your point?

<<So by choosing to remain as a co-pilot they put themselves in perpetual limbo, therefore never actually exposing themselves to the risk of dismissal, and in the mean time raking in the cash.>>

Ah, I see your point. Wow, this is another giant leap in logic, sir. Every time any pilot in SAA does a proficiency check or Instrument Rating renewal they expose themselves to the risk of dismissal. So pray, tell, what is different when doing a conversion?

Or are you saying that the target of your vitriol will not pass the Command Course?

<< Airlines need to get rid of these expensive under-achievers W.I.E. >>

This comment is not called for. In fact, the person you are berating is far from being an under-achiever. You may even be able to learn a thing or two from her if you could tame your ego long enough to listen.

<<What happens to the guy who was on the waiting list immediately preceeding this career co-pilot on date of joining and probably ended up on an intake 3 years later?>>

As mentioned above, absolutely nothing. In this game, timing is everything. When this pilot eventually moves on to command (or, indeed stays as a First Officer), a vacancy will be created below and this patient pilot will get the slot.

I guess it is time to go back in my shell.

Mike

[skyvan]

Well Mike got in before me, but I will add my 2c worth anyway....

Jetnut, you have no idea about the abilities of the lady in question. When she gets her command, she will be an absolute pleasure to fly with. Her decision to remain an F/O is a brave one, because of pallukas like you, who use the opportunity to try to knock a practical decision. You do not know her personal reasons for the choice she has made, neither do I, but having observed her both at work, and at SAAPA, she has a very level head on her shoulders, and any decision she makes will have been laced with logic and intellegence.

The seniority has both advantages and disadvantages, one of which is the ability to massage your career choices to your best benefit. Don't forget, now-a-days, it doesn't matter which fleet you fly on, you are driving the best equipment in the country, and you are earning the best salary in the country. It shouldn't matter what other pilots are doing with their careers, just enjoy the benefits of your own.

[planecrazi]

Wow, aren't we lucky JetNut works with you guys? I would hate to see him leave SAA.
An impressive background, he says?

Could you imagine this guy one day in the left seat, using his arrogance, , self-centeredness to come up with a solution or a plan for a situation. Bye-bye CRM, I'll just use my impressive background.:ugh:

Are there any P3's that could bypass JetNut? :D

Now that would make our day!:ok:

[chrissimal]

:confused:I am not really sure to what or whom you are directing your ascerbic comments. However, in an effort to understand your unsolicited crticism I reviewed some of your postings on other forums.

On 10/4/07 at 14:59 you wrote "It seems aviation is fraught with prophets of doom, general jealousy and a tinge of backstabbing. Sad indeed".

I think the little green devil you referred to has paid you a visit.

Enough said.

Kind regards

Christine

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:
It must be doubtful that any pilot enters an airline either intending or planning to remain a FO for life. Circumstances arise, however, which makes this the scenario for what actually happens and not for what which was planned.
There are people who, with no disgrace at all, reach their plateau as first officers on turbo props. There are equally those who, having been given a command on those machines, cannot transition to jets.
There are, or certainly were, in the UK, first officers on the smaller turbo prop fleets who only had a Commercial Licence. By the time their small company had been amalgamated with a larger operator, some felt that they were too old to write the ATPL examination subjects. These guys were brilliant to fly with, bags of experience, no axe to grind and a more than passing knowledge of all the best pubs on a night stop.
Then there are those who are made up to Captain, sometimes against the advice of the training section, and subsequently make rather bad mistakes which lead to relegation to the right.
There are plenty of pilots too, who have chosen to remain in the right, if only for the time being, solely to postpone a base change.
Finally, there are those who, for example, having banged around through innumerable northern winter flights or whatever, simply don't want the responsibility of a command. Those of that ilk whose paths have crossed with this pilot's have invariably been extremely good operators, quite content in their niche and of a maturity which encourages conversation on subjects other than the usual banalities.
It is, in never so humble opinion, far, far better in all respects to have a permanent First Officer who is happy in his situation and content within himself at his achievements than some jumped up little toadstool who sits in the right and thinks that he has some god given right to the left, and that, right soon too!:p

As an addendum, might one please thank the distinguished moderators for allowing a little latitude of discussion from the original proposal.:D

[planecrazi]

CC,
Your last sentence of your paragraph, sums up our opinion very well of Jetnut, in this instance. Unfortunately, this leopard is not going to change his spots and will forever bare this grudge against others. It's unfortunate that he is already in the system of aviation, preparing to stand on his seniors and colleagues, for his own personal gain. This is naive and selfish to say the least.

[fluffyfan]

JetNut, you were given a long length of rope and now it looks like you have hanged yourself with it, congratulations on Pissing off some very well respected and senior colleges, lets hope you have the courage to sign your name at the bottom of your next post, like the people you attacked have, how is it any of your business how they choose to live, how does it affect you? it does not affect you in any way, for someone with a very impressive academic career it seems you are not very street smart.........good luck to you on the rest of your career.

[saywhat]

Jetnut. The persons that you refer to are certainly not due this criticism. In fact these individuals will go to all extremes to protect your interests when the doo doo hits the propeller. To this I can attest.

There are certain people who live in Perth and commute to work. This is their choice. If it works for them, and does not disrupt your roster, why should you have a problem with it??

Some individuals have delayed command for personal reasons. Once again, this will, if anything benefit you, as you will get command earlier. I respect their decision for whatever reasons they made them. Life happens. I wanted to be a fireman when I was young. I changed my mind later, as life went on. Same principle. If a person wants to be a co-pilot forever, (not that this is the case in question) so be it. They have their reasons, they don't have to live their lives by your standards....(thank God).

Sign on - do your job - respect others, and they will respect you - sign off - go home. It's that easy....................

[bianchi]

''Saywhat''

You could'nt have said it better !! Chrissie......the one that is under fire here( for no reason)will go out of her way to help guys and girls around you! I have experienced it first hand a number of times.( and just for the record it had nothing to do with wangling a roster so that I can get flights or certain days off)

Jetnut, I don't know who you are,neither am I interrested, but stay out of this forum, you are doing YOURSELF allot of damage. F....knows why you are such a unhappy person!!

[John Wayne]

Mechanics often turn down Foreman positions; associate attorneys turn down partnerships; doctors remain GPs and don't specialize; shunters don't all become train drivers; prostitutes scorn on the position of Madame; and @55h0les, well they remain mostly @55h0les. Not so JetTw@t?

[Moose 9]

I may be very wrong but to come back to the original point, it is my understanding that the travel perks which are available to the flight deck crew, are in fact part of the salary package which is agreed to when joining the company.Therefore one could look at it as not a "perk" but rather as using what is rightfully available to you, if you choose not to you are losing part of your salary.

Please beleive me that it's defenitely NOT confirmed first class ticket to anywhere in the world with all your mates!

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

In that case, should not the SA Revenue service treat the value of all such travel tickets as a benefit in kind, not essential for purposes of employment, and therefore not tax deductible? Thus it should be taxed in the hands of the recipient as though it were income?:E

[The Actuator]

They do.

The "travel perk" is more onerous than it is worth and is not used quite nearly as much as this squealing management circus would have one believe. "Divert attention from the real problems and blame the pilots" seems to be the rallying cry. Nice one.

[nugpot]

In that case, should not the SA Revenue service treat the value of all such travel tickets as a benefit in kind, not essential for purposes of employment, and therefore not tax deductible? Thus it should be taxed in the hands of the recipient as though it were income?

CC, it is treated as exactly that. Any rebate confirmed more than 72 hours before travel is classed as a taxable perk and taxed at the relevant rate. Standby rebates are not taxed due to the uncertain nature of their relative value.

The SAA rebate arbitation (which SAAPA won in all the relevant questions before the arbitrator), was because SAA unilaterally changed rebate allowances and thus changed the conditions of employment of SAA pilots.

Yes, the pilots do get confirmed seats on some of their rebates and yes, those seats could have gone to revenue pax, but they are only a small part of the rebate allowance. Most tickets are standby, and currently basically worthless due to the loads carried by SAA.