MECIR Training At Night?

[BOK_]

Hi All,

I currently have around 12 hours night time flying. I will be commencing a MECIR rating within the next few months and would like to try and maximise my dollars by doing the majority of the rating at night time so I can accrue night hours whilst training and thus satisfy the 50 hour night requirement for RPT ops.

Has anyone completed there MECIR training at night? and if so, what school did you use and aircraft type?. I live in Sydney so somewhere on the east coast is most preferable - anyone from Johnsons Aviation do there training at night?....Any other information in relation to MECIR training at night would be much appreciated.

Cheers...


BOK

:ok:

[THE IRON MAIDEN]

I just did mine, did a few of the navs at night, ( i think minium of 1 has to be )

I wanted to do it all at night too, but the instructors tend to like to be able to see things with they,
1 shut the engine down for the feather and;
2 "fail" the engine on just about every approach.

I dont think there isnt any reason the whole thing cant be done at night. But I found a mix of day and night was good.

Just talk to the schools and see what their take on it is.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

"I dont think there isnt any reason the whole thing cant be done at night. But I found a mix of day and night was good."

I am happy to stand corrected if I am wrong, but .........

...... my understanding is that engine failures/assymetrics at night are illegal.

Personally I found the engine failures under the hood to be the most challenging part of the MECIR.

Dr:cool:

[squawk6969]

Yeah but they don't make you do it on short Final anymore doc!:eek:

[THE IRON MAIDEN]

I dont think there is an issue with a "simulated" engine failure at night in a multi.

I guess that would be part of the ME-NVFR, otherwise how would a ME-NVFR be different from a SE?

.. VMC is VMC.....

But I dont have the regs in front of me, so if anyone can find the referance, I'll tip my hit and stand corrected.

[Aussie]

Mate, if you end up going to JAS for the MECIR, youll do one night Nav to WIllytown for a couple of ILS approaches... they have a set course layout and like to stick to it... so not sure if youll be able to convince them to do it all at night.

As for no more engine failiures on short finals.... got one in my flight test :{:{

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Maybe its just no EFATOs at night.

As I understand it the ME NVFR requirement is to an engine failure in cruise.

Someone in here must know the regs better than I do?

Dr:cool:

[squawk6969]

Aussie......Under the hood, short finals:} Gag on the Doc. Back in the "old days" they made ya work for it......doesnt matter!

[Muffinman]

Nothing in the regs re asymmetric training/checking in imc/night. What you see/experience in your training is the procedures being followed as per an organisations 'SOPs' (these directives come under many acronym) and thus the development of an 'off the shelf' training program with a usually heavy emphasis on day ops.

Re night time - this may limit asymmetric simulation to not be carried out below an certain altitude/condition(imc)/environment, which then prevents the opportunity to train/practice the EFATO/missed approach.

Any training at night presents an excellent opportunity to experience so many night related stressors, that as a customer you could hopefully sit down and discuss and see what they could offer you. Some syllabus are approved and cannot be changed (self sponsored Q cadets) - but this may not be your case. :ok:

[Jet_A_Knight]

Nice post, pentacle.:ok:

Doing the CIR at night, away from remote lighting, will help alot.

Try it out in cloud too.:E

[Muffinman]

Pentacle, likewise some good links however can you confirm AIPOPS -77. I know the reference is mentioned in the CAAP 5.23(1) application form point #12 but my AIP does not have OPS no more. I use the Jeppo - is it in there?

[Unhinged]

It's in AIP ENR 1.1 Page 104, Para 81.3.1

There is no general prohibition against engine shutdowns at night. The prohibition referred to is against simulated or actual engine shutdowns below 1500 ft AGL at night in circuit training operations.

There was a recent relevant thread which debated the enforceability of anything written in the AIP but, enforceable or not, this is just sensible airmanship !

[Muffinman]

thanks mate:ok: - I hadn't heard of OPS references for a loooong time now

[Muffinman]

Thanks Pentacle:ok: - I knew it was there somewhere.

It is interesting how the AIP reference to "must" states that this means a supporting regulation or order.......:confused: yet no such preamble mentioned re "shall/must" in the Jepps as far as can determine.

Anyway ....Hope this all helps BOK_:ok:

[BOK_]

Thanks very much guys - has helped a lot.

BOK

:ok:

[Brian Abraham]

Going over ground that previous posters have covered in some detail but the following extracts come from an accident report at http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2003/aair/aair200300224.aspx in which a friend lost his life.

Asymmetric flight at night was not precluded by regulation. However, guidance provided to pilots contained in the Aeronautical Information Publication (AIP) stated that simulated asymmetric flight at night must not be conducted below 1,500 ft AGL. Civil Aviation Advisory Publication (CAAP) 5.23-1 (0) provided guidance on a syllabus of training, which included night asymmetric circuits. A note in that publication reminded the reader that the condition in AIP, which effectively precluded these operations from the circuit area at night, applied. However, no guidance was given on how to reconcile the conduct of asymmetric night circuit operations with the height limitation in AIP.

A night asymmetric training accident involving a SA227-AC Metroliner, VH-NEJ, at Tamworth on 16 September 1995 (Occurrence report BO/199503057), was investigated by the then Bureau of Air Safety Investigation (BASI), which issued the following interim recommendation on 01 May 1996:
`IR 950224
The Bureau of Air Safety Investigation recommends that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority amend the Civil Aviation Regulations and the Civil Aviation Orders to ensure that when a provision of the Aeronautical Information Publication specifically prohibits certain manoeuvres and procedures, then this prohibition has legal force which is reflected in relevant Civil Aviation Regulations and Civil Aviation Orders.

The Bureau of Air Safety Investigation recommends that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority take appropriate steps to inform and educate the industry on the hazards involved in asymmetric training operations in conditions of low visibility and at night.’

The Civil Aviation Safety Authority responded to the recommendation 01 August 1996, stating:
`I refer to your interim recommendation IR950224 concerning the accident involving SA227 AC, VH NEJ at Tamworth on 16 September 1995. I apologise for the delay in forwarding the following comments.
The Regulatory Structure and Validation Project (RSVP), which is the first stage of a two stage review of existing civil aviation regulations, is currently being finalised by CASA. The RSVP will, inter alia, rectify the problems identified in the first paragraph of the BASI recommendation. In addition, CASA endorses the recommendation in the second paragraph of IR950224 and will produce an article in the summer issue of the Flight Safety Australia magazine on the hazards of asymmetric training operations in conditions of low visibility and at night.’

The risks associated with low level asymmetric operations at night were identified and addressed in May 1996 in Interim Recommendation IR19950224. Regulatory and education action that was addressed by CASA in its response to the recommendation in August 1996 has yet to be fully implemented.

Planned low-level asymmetric flight at night is considered to be an unacceptable risk because, unlike daylight conditions, the pilot may neither know about, nor be able to see, any obstacles in the aircraft’s changed flight path in order to take avoiding action.

Vale Les. Good friend Trevor Brougham also came to grief under similar circumstances. Vale too Trev.

Good luck with the training and as they used to say in the TV cop show "Be careful up there".