PVR rates at 10 year high.

[BEagle]

Manpower shortage as pressures of war drive troops to quit Forces

See: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article2017699.ece

Mind you, I was watching Sky news on the hotel TV earlier and some underwhelming guvmint suit, Derek Twigg, was denying that retention was a problem....:rolleyes: He spoke with all the false sincerity of 'Comical Ali', but with none of the humour.

[airborne_artist]

From the article:

"Since 2001, the Armed Forces have continuously operated above the highest level of activity envisaged in their defence planning assumptions, said the MPs. But despite the extra operational burden, the MoD has not boosted manning levels in that period."

[8-15fromOdium]

PAS report can be accessed here: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm/cmpubacc.htm
Appears the RAF has a manning problem - these people get paid for this !!!
Nice to see the BBC reporting it as an Army problem.:ugh:

[OpsMan38]

Having just PVR'd (Terminal exit date next week) after XX years in, I thought that when I threw in the towel (for various reasons, all boring and to do with work life balance as married to forces person who was always away when I was at home etc etc - even having my wife take over from my post on det!??) I was surprised when I was told I could leave well within the required 12 month notice period as "manning isn't an issue at the moment".

Surprised to say the least then, when I was asked if there was anything the RAF could offer me to stay after my PVR had already been approved.... At this point I did ask for a guarantee that I would be posted within commutable distance of my wife but then I already knew the answer to that one..!

And now know my branch is undermanned....

But we're not overstretched. Oh no.

[The Helpful Stacker]

According to the Staish at Odious this glorious little slice of Hampshire has the lowest PVR rate in the RAF.

He didn't mention the rates of people who are just seeing out their present contract and not re-newing.:rolleyes:

[stickmonkeytamer]

Last one out, switch the light off...

SMT

[Mad_Mark]

Ahhh, stickmonkeytamer,

The old ones are the... old ones :rolleyes:

[John Purdey]

To anyone stumbling on this Thread, it might sound as though our own people are gloating over the (undoubted) difficulties that our Services are facing.

[Chris Griffin]

Mr Purdey - ...then I suggest you read the responses again.

As a serving member I "might" find your comment offensive and out of touch. For you to suggest that any past or present serving member "might" "gloat" at the situation we are all facing is disappointing and I feel you have let yourself down.

What you will garner fom reading the responses is a reluctant but overwhelming notion of "we told you so". Those at the coalface know the "difficulties" all too well, yet there was a slight glimmer of light when the PAC validated a fact we are all aware of but the MoD denied. Hence an "I told you so" approach. :*

[advocatusDIABOLI]

John,

Did your Daughter used to be in the 'Avengers' ? :}

Advo

[The Helpful Stacker]

I agree fully with what you say 'Chris Griffin'.

For too long those on the shop floor have said that these continued cutbacks will eventually bite yet it seems this has just been disregarded as 'whinging' by those towards the top (those right at the top must only hear "everything is great"). Unfortunately now the fears of the people who have to actually do the job (rather than the top-heavy 'management') are being realised.

Many of us who are heading for the door (I don't have much longer left) are saddened to see the services we put so much into and have so much pride in reduced to such a state, but for too long the MoD/government has taken advantage of the 'improvise adapt and overcome' nature of many of us who serve, to a point where it seems that this is being relied on rather than having to go to the expense of supporting us properly.

Enough is enough, and whilst I don't wish any ill on my colleagues I leave behind unfortuantely if the continued neglect of the services by the Minister for Defence & Scotland and other members of this government continues I forsee something terrible happening.

[Kengineer-130]

:(:}why, yet again, does it take a newpapar article and a TV titbit to highlight what 99% of the forces already know? :ugh::{:mad:

It's the same as when they were paying the "simpler" consultants 100K a week (read one trick ponys who think the RAF is a Toyota factory :*:rolleyes:) to "Lean" (read completely F**K UP) the RAF's maintainance policy...... The upper management made an absolute hash of it, due to YET AGAIN failing to listen to the guys who do the job week in week out, and surprisingly actually know just a little bit about what they do and how to improve it..... How the "consultants" nonsence EVER even got considered is beyond me, and it has taken 3 years for a secret wiltshire airbase with turboprops to get even halfway back to a decent set-up, and we still suffer fallout of the mess that was made, due to not listening to the worker ants :ugh:

I think that the management fail to see the problem as the forces in general have a very "can do" attitude, and will strive to do the best job possible whatever happens.

Also when we get big wig visitors, there is a noise and movements ban, and of course a mad workplace clean-up, so whenever a visit happens, the Pan is empty, it is silent, and you have a crew room full of people doing nothing, so obviously we have got too much manpower :}:}

It won't be long now before everyone looses interest, it is obvious that the wave of people leaving is only going to get worse, recruitment is down, and not looking likely to pick up anytime soon..... It unfortunatly of thier own doing, as our benefits and conditions of living and service have been constantly eroded, to the point where it just isn't worth the hassle anymore, civvys get better terms and conditions for doing the SAME job as blue suits, without the chance of getting shot at. I can only speak for the Engineering trades, but even in the short time I have been in the RAF, it is obvious that our skill base is being severley eroded by contracting out work, and dumbing down new recruits training.....

And yet, those in the Ivory towers will follow the traditional route, deny anything is wrong, say infact it is actually better than expected, and bury thier heads in the sand......

It needs sorting out, and soon

[Len Ganley]

It is not just the PVR rates that are the problem but also the number of people who are not taking the option of extending their service.

Unfortunately these people are never included in any stats.

If I was running a large company that could not get enough new recruits to fill the gaps left by people coming to the end of their contract whom I could not persuade to stay, and was also faced by a vast number of people choosing to terminate their contract early, I may begin to suspect I had a problem.

Unfortunately our lords and masters don't seem to agree:ugh:

[Phoney Tony]

How do they know what the PVR rate is.

I read recently that JPA was not capable of providing the bean counters with the data they need.

The old system (What ever that was) no longer exists.

Perhaps it was 'Leaned Out'.

[Phochs3]

The irony of 'Lean' is that this was something industry adopted many decades ago and has since canned. It is little more than brainstorming, and the result is an operation that leaves no fat whatsoever in the system. It is now common knowledge that 'running on the red' is no way to operate!

[nimblast]

DASA collected the PVR rates before JPA.
However even when DASA collected the figures anyone who PVR'd after completing 22yrs but before reaching 30yrs or 55yrs did not count as a retention problem, as they had completed their 22yrs engagement. This is plainly stupid, as anyone who quits before his or her current engagement is complete IS a retention problem.

[Yozzer]

I know of 2 WSOp (ALM) who have 'good' civilian job offers on the table and are told that it will take over 12 months to escape by PVR. Both are 22 year+

Surely PMA are taking the urine here, for a precident must have been set many times over. Although I hear that the Chinny mate who handed in his ID card on the way out is now 'Mad' and therfore to be medically discharged.

Despite the 5 year hold on PAS guys PVRing being utter bolleax, I still suspect that Apr 08 will be the threashold for many a PVR.

We could stay in and get:

1) Job satisfaction.
2) 3 'get you home leave warrants' per year.
3) A Doctor or Dentist when you need one.
4) Appreciation for a job well done.
5) Secure home life.
6) Free food and accomodation when sent on a Course.
7) Ditto when posted away from 'home'.
8) A career path.

...and that is before I put any real thought into it.

If PMA are entitled to demand their final 12 months, then there is no real differance between PVR and NGR. JPA will still not accept a PVR, it has to be done 'manually' by the Chief Clerk.

[Kengineer-130]

Are you for real or taking the mick?? I can't decide! Honestly :eek:!!

I quote:

We could stay in and get:

1) Job satisfaction. - To a degree, but always unappreciated, and being pushed harder and harder all the time
2) 3 'get you home leave warrants' per year.- Only in your first 3 years of service

3) A Doctor or Dentist when you need one.- Who know F*** All and are responsible for many people suffering YEARS of pain due to their ineptitude...I know of at LEAST 3 people that have had very simple problems mis-diagnosed and ignored, and had them sorted by an NHS doctor almost instantly. Also, why do appointments get easier to obtain the higher up the rank structure you get? :ugh:
4) Appreciation for a job well done. ??? By your immediate supierior maybe, but not a lot else. The government can't even be f**ked to buy us the correct equiptment to keep us safe in warzones like body armour and fuel tank foam to name but two items.......unless SERIOUSLY bullied by concerned relatives and colleagues of fallen servicement :mad:
5) Secure home life.??? Dets to warzones 3-4 times a year is hardly the easiest things for loved ones parents/partners/kids to deal with is it? Rent for quarters being "bought into line" with civvy street, most quarters worse than abandonded council houses, singlys live WORSE than most prisoners :ugh:
6) Free food and accomodation when sent on a Course.?? Nope, have to pay for food now.
7) Ditto when posted away from 'home'. Only in field conditions
8) A career path. Yes maybe- if all our jobs are not given to civvys who get paid more for doing the same job :ugh:

[The Helpful Stacker]

Kengineer-130 - I think the point 'Yozzer' was making is that we could if these hadn't been taken away, hence some of the reasons many are leaving.

[Almost_done]

As an Eng Tec A I have submitted my PVR, I have completed 22yrs and I am now on LOS 30, I have a firm job offer, I am being forced to wait the 12months PVR time, luckly with negotiation the company are holding the position open for me.
If I was an Eng Tech P, I could be out tomorrow if it were needed. I am leaving as there are no job incentives any more, no good postings, they all seem to be going to the IT trades and coppers now (if you look at the Chief Clerks Bulletin). There is no more 'carrot' to be offered as an incentive to make people work with the added inconvienences the within the mob only 'stick' now.
I will miss the RAF for what it was, not for what it has become.

[advocatusDIABOLI]

Kengineer,

Nail..... meet hammer....... hammer meet nail........... BANG! Good Job!

Advo

[45 before POL]

Yozzer...the 2 ALM's you were referring to. If they have the job offers in writting they can push for earlier release....just takes a bit of balls to do......I was in the same position they said 12 months, i needed to leave in 7 and a half as had job offer(in writing) A chat to my 1st R.O and stating what legal implications this has and a phone call from him...left me with what i wanted:E Its a case of being prepared to push for it.

[An Teallach]

The BBC comments page is burning here (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?sortBy=1&threadID=6688&start=15&tstart=0&edition=1&ttl=20070703230351&#paginator).

[funflier44]

I served for far too long in the RAF, when I joined I was proud to serve and be associated with a respected organisation that shrived to do its best, where everyone was respected and nearly everyone, looked after each other. Rules were interpreted to fit the situation and mistakes were admitted and lessons learned without too many recriminations.
The RAF I left this year was a demoralised one of short termism, only think of number one, sh*t on your mates to get on, over the top PC and lack of support from the grown ups (it might halt their progress). There were exceptions to this but unfortunately they were few and far between.
There were some excellent guys and girls doing great jobs and putting a lot of extra hours to get the job done but were they recognised? How many times was their work used or signed off by their boss to gain brownie points?
I think somewhere along the line we lost our sense of pride and our identity and became corporate beings driven by the bean counters and the adminers.
But then this is what has happened in the rest of the country so the service is reflecting the community it serves.
This was not meant to be a slight on great organisation I was proud to have served just to be a comment on the state of the country and the lack of leadership and moral guidance we have had for some time.
I don't blame the people PVRing, the caring sharing RAF organisation did very little in the way of any welfare to my family. In all the time I spent away during my service my wife and children received little or no support from the RAF, in fact I'm not sure they ever acknowledged their existence.
Rant over.

[An Teallach]

I think somewhere along the line we lost our sense of pride and our identity and became corporate beings driven by the bean counters and the adminers.

Believe me, the types you speak of are quite content to crap on the Adminers as well. It made pulling the fast-track yellow and black almost bearable after a CO who wet himself whenever I was off station lectured me that I didn't need to do all this - I was dealing with 3 bereaved families. The 3 Servicemen concerned were not, of course, under his command and the work would not reflect on his career.

[Widger]

Just like North Sea Cod stocks, there comes a point when a Service reaches critical mass, when enough people have left, this creates an intolerable burden on the rest and they leave as well. I note in the news that the Royal Marines have been notified to get ready to go back to Afghanistan in the autumn!

[Pontius Navigator]

Yes the rot set in with the Cold War Peace Dividend which might have been a valid exercise. The failure has been to recognise that a 'small' peacetime force in being might be suitable as a deterent but that the force needed to hold, fight and win is much larger.

In WW1, in WW2, in Korea, in Suez we had to mobilise reserves, conscript civilians and reach a war footing.

In the Falklands, being only a short conflict, we were able to just about manage with our exisiting force in being. We were even able to mount ceremonial and air shows helped no doubt by the distance to the islands and the lack of sea lift.

The signal failure for GW2 was the failure to plan for peace. The failure in Afghanistan was one of blind hope over historical precendent. How Dr John can look himself in the mirror each morning I do not know.

What for the future? Do we stop trying to win in Afghanistan for the moment and instead 'hold' while we prepare? Or do we realise that even the Russian Bear left with a bloody nose?

They had a bloody nose as the Mujahadeen had an effective logisitics tail. We are possibly getting hit too as that logisitics tail is still effective and there is little we can do about it.

[wokkameister]

Pontious,

I agree with many of your sentiments, but although Iraq may well be a lost cause, Afghanistan is far from lost.
There may come a time in the future when your comments are apt, but that time is not now.
It is true that as an op, combined with Iraq it is stretching the forces to the absolute limit (and beyond in a number of areas), but there is progress being made and to suggest otherwise is misleading.

TTFN

WM

[unclenelli]

At my section, we should have a Cpl and SAC per shift and are established for 5 Cpls and 5 SACs to cover 2D, 2N, 4off, 2 on leave (which is a legal shift pattern iaw European Working Time Directive) - 1 Cpl & 2 SACs posted-out by the end of July with no replacements (which would take over 3mths to train up) and 1 Cpl, 1 SAC on det for 4mths (make that 6-7mths including IRT/IDT/CCS prep and PODL) = 3 Cpls, 2 SACs = ILLEGAL manning for Cpls and IMPOSSIBLE manning for SACs as 1 is currently a U/T and then going on to permanent nights for at least a month with no days off - 30+ straight nights in a row!!!!!!! or Cpls doing SACs job = 2D, 2N, 1Off (sleep day, so not really a day off), 1SAC shift
Hoping someone is posted-in in July before we look at Oct/Nov/Dec Rosters
We could cancel leave, but what leave should we cancel - It's now July & I've not had any since my own PODL in January!! and 2 other CPLs were also OOA as well, 1 before and 1 after me!!!
As well as the fact that I work 150miles away from home due to an unwanted posting in 2005 (I was resigned to working through the commuting for a few years when I got the 4days off, but when the shifts get this bad, I won't see home for months - it's like being OOA again, within the UK!!!!), its no wonder that people are voting with their feet!!
Go Figure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What we need is more money - years ago!!!!!!!! or withdraw from Iraq/Afganistan now in order to create a UK defence force capable of defending UK against the NHS - If it's not MRSA & C-Dif that'll kill you, it's the doctors

Visit www.johnsmeaton.com - pledge-a-pint

[Report Line]

Oh well here goes - a bit of spleen venting!


I had promised myself that I would try to maintain a positive attitude about continued life in the Service and in many respects the positive still outweighs the negative. However, I do get tired of people (not least of which are our airships) who tell us that we are really important:) - no Air Force without the personnel in it:) - greatest asset is our manpower (and lady power of course):). All this is coupled with some monumental 'improvements' to compensate for increased operational tempo and prove that we are loved:ok:. Namely:Modern Housing solutions DHE et al (done on the cheap?):confused:.


JPA (recognised by the old PMA to be a complete goat - done on the cheap?). Apparently, the Army aren't having any problems with it. I think this is because the chief clerk enters all the data for the troops.:=


PMA reorg and union with HQ STC to make Air Command (resulting in significant staff cuts both mil and civ - personnel service levels now non-existant - done on the cheap?):*


Leaning of Defence Medical Services (no more sick parades go to nearest A&E - yeah right!).:sad: Try and get a dental appt if you aren't going on ops.


Pay as you dine (jury is out but it seems to be faltering through profit margin issues for the contractor - done on the cheap?).:eek:
I don't have the coherent staffing case to back up any of the above but it is a perception issue isn't it? If people feel screw+d then they probably are - if you know what I mean.

I think the kit issue has been sorted and am content to go to whatever 'Stan' they want me to. CEA still seems like a good deal. Free Gym membership - can't be bad. Morale and welfare on ops has come forward in leaps and bounds and the Ops bonus is top. Some initiatives are being targeted where needed and there is a listening ear to those areas of the mil with serious problems. Many of the old sweats I talk to who did extended Cold War service feel quite miffed at missing out on all of the action. Operational environment could be viewed as being attractive - just food for thought. Forget about the politics and politicians and its what we joined up for isn't it? I know there are people within the system that care and who are doing their utmost to turn things around - may take some time - oil tankers and stuff. Unlike the good old days which gave us arse widening stability we now face sunken cheek wide eyed dynamic change - cool isn't it? To those with the power (OK staff jobs) keep up the hard work and perhaps try and work on the perception thing - perception is reality etc. Get that wrong and folks will continue to walk.

Hope I didn't upset too many of you.

[wazz'n'zoom]

Interesting to note it's not just the minions leaving. The boss of 22 gp, you know the ex Pongo turned Crab has PVR'd, out in a month no less. Also the top Matelot waffoo, old Sir Adrian is leaving early. Could it be the draw of fat salary UKMFTS jobs or jumping off before the rotors slow down too much. To be honest all the funs gone and I don't blame them. Roll on Civvy street this year.:)

[In Tor Wot]

Understand there are a couple more in the Monastery of Indifference as well at the starred level.

Wonder who's going to be the next DAS then?

[toddbabe]

Wokka I guarantee you we will not "win" in Afghanistan! it is just a matter of when we leave after the Government and people eventually lose the will.
The bloody withdrawl of troops from Iraq will inevitably help a bit after first leaving Iraq in a holy mess but unless we pull out of Afghanistan as well then I can only see it going exactly the same way.

[6Z3]

Also the top Matelot waffoo, old Sir Adrian is leaving early
I think you'll find it's just plain old Adrian, or AJ to his mates; which might explain his move.

[Wessexman]

"During my Service career, there has been a dramatic reduction in the number of RAF personnel, whilst at the same time there has been a substantial increase in the sustained level of out of area operations. This, allied with the lack of appropriate directed investment in aircraft, infrastructure and support services, has not enabled the front line to keep pace effectively with the increase in the level of effort necessary to meet operational requirements. As a result, I can see that the morale of our personnel, the cornerstone of our military ethos and effectiveness is being whittled away to the point where now, the loyalty and the ‘raison d’etre’ which has for so long underpinned our operations can no longer be relied upon as it was in the past."
Just one paragraph of my pvr letter, submitted some months ago, which highlights several specific problem areas that will need to be addressed to counter the 'outflow' of personnel. Fellas-I know that some of us have tried and are trying to change the Ts & Cs. But with a max 1 % uplift (possibly) in the defence budget, No such thing as UORs (so the current budget pays for everything extra in the ME), and all of the defence budget having been allocated and then some for the next x(many) years there will be no extra money! But first and foremost-those in positions of power need to look downwards-not upwards and start doing their primary job-look after their own little bit of the org and their people without the desire to look up with tongue hanging out and panting for promotion like a little puppy. It saddens me when good senior guys turn political all too early in their career and spout utter cr@p to sound placating and as if everything is ok.
I am both mad at the way the RAF has rolled over and accepted the erosion of standards and sad to say goodbye to the Service and her people that I joined a long time ago.

[nigegilb]

Very well said Wessexman. You have recognised the problem and also recognised that it is not being dealt with in an honest way.

The managers, (I no longer use the word leadership), who manage the military are trying to manage their way out of a problem that does not officially exist.

CDS Sir Jock Stirrup- CDS himself describes this as "stretched, but not overstretched".

They are reducing manpower in Iraq, NI and Bosnia. The problem, however, will not go away and we are months away from crisis. As Toddbabe points out, the crisis will be Afg and a crisis of momentum created by the rush to the door.

CDS, too little too late.

[PingDit]

The Forces as always, will give 100% to whatever we're tasked with.
I see the major problem at governmental level. Could it possibly be that the current government doesn't have a single MP with any military background?

Sorry I forgot our own man in defence... Lance Corporal Des Browne....

PingDit
:}

[nigegilb]

The part time Defence Secretary is so inexperienced he relies enormously on those who advise him. When the CDS goes around saying that the military is stretched but not overstretched it is hardly surprising that UK Armed Forces have endured a serier of manpower cutbacks at a time of unsurpassed operational deployments. These same Chiefs of Staff have agreed cutbacks to military hospitals, strike aircraft, infantry, the list goes on.

It is only when the Parliamentary Defence Committee confronts the MoD Heads with the facts, that the likes of CDS put a time limit for the "stretched, but not overstretched" condition to continue.

His answer?... Two years.

Any takers on the state of the RN, Army and RAF by then?

[BEagle]

From BBC News http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6909550.stm

The head of the Army has warned that British troops are so stretched that the nation's military reserves are "almost non-existent".

In the memo, leaked to the Daily Telegraph, General Sir Richard Dannatt said the Army was undermanned because of operations in Afghanistan and Iraq.

He also said vital equipment was being used "at the edge of sustainability".

A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said the forces were working hard but the current situation was "manageable".

General Dannatt also said the Army has "almost no capability to react to the unexpected".

Just what WILL it take for those useless liars in government to admit that things have now reached a critical point with our underfunded and overstretched Armed Forces.

[dallas]

When the CDS goes around saying that the military is stretched but not overstretched...
Except overstretch isn't quantifiable, it's a matter of opinion. If we're continuing to fight and support two wars, carry on most major exercises (Red Flag, Medman etc) and field role demos at air shows, with the exception of a few occasional periods of unplanned unserviceability, I think CDS is broadly right to say we're not overstretched.

But if we start taking casualties on a daily basis due to a lack of properly equipped people on the ground, a lack of air cover and all manner of other components needed to properly sustain 2 wars, only then are we truly overstretched.

But, the essential bit here is the forecast. With increasing numbers of experienced personnel leaving - whatever their motives - and recruitment particularly slow, we are certainly headed towards overstretch and the complacency that 'stretched not overstretched' sometimes causes is the biggest danger to our military effort in the future. As Dannatt and others have said, the current tempo is unsustainable ad infinitum and that is the headline our leadership, the press and the public need to grasp and act upon, by fundamentally reviewing defence, today.

Unfortunately I have a nasty feeling I'll be saying I told you so.

[nigegilb]

Dallas, 15,000 troops have exceeded harmony guidelines in recent times. 15,000 not enough for you?

Adam Ingram, former Minister, stated that he didn't care about harmony; as long as the task was being achieved, then the Armed Forces were not overstretched. It is this cold, calculated view on overstretch, that has meant that troops serving in Afg and Iraq have not been given time to recover from physical and mental injuries, time to be with their families and get to know their kids again. This has led to the unprecedented rush to the door.

If you can't see that, then you are as deluded as CDS, Browne and the rest.

The future crisis has been caused by the current policy of managed overstretch meeting the task.

[PingDit]

'Any takers on the state of the RN, Army and RAF by then?'

Apparently, 80% of the RAF budget currently goes on Typhoon.
Doesn't leave much financial support for the guys on the ground does it?

PingDit
:{

[dallas]

nige

15,000 is way too many, but my point is the task - the fighting, the supporting, the resupplying - are all being done, albeit with men and women who are exceeding guidelines, but it is being done.

It's when we physically don't have those people because, as you alluded to, because existing conditions have forced them to rush to the door, we are in deep trouble. In my opinion that is the point of 'overstretch' and we're certainly headed towards it.

Until that point, when Pte Smith has to routinely fire 2 weapons because there isn't anyone else, until there routinely isn't a helo to drop him more ammo, until the airbridge grinds to a halt every day, we're struggling and in a dire situation, but the boys and girls are making it work.

My opinion is subjective, but I also think we need to keep a word up our sleeves for when it breaks down. Because we're going to need it.

[Melchett01]

In my opinion that is the point of 'overstretch' and we're certainly headed towards it....

Until that point, when Pte Smith has to routinely fire 2 weapons because there isn't anyone else, until there routinely isn't a helo to drop him more ammo, until the airbridge grinds to a halt every day, we're struggling and in a dire situation, but the boys and girls are making it work.



What do you mean headed towards it? We're past it!!!! I am currently on leave; it is the first leave I have had this year, as we are so undermanned that at the moment I am covering 3 other jobs in addition to my own - plus my liability to be sent to the sandpit at a moment's notice. Unfortunately my situation is not unusual. Running hot? And then some!

But I agree you have hit the nail on the head with the can do attitude of personnel papering over the cracks created by the incompetence of spineless yes men, accountants and useless politicians. But that is all we are doing, papering over the cracks. How many body bags turning up at Brize will it take? How many delayed Timmy flights out of theatre leaving hundreds of troops stranded at end of tour and missing R&R will it take? How many scrubbed sorties will it take due to ac u/s, lack of crews etc will it take?

Just what will it take for those at the top to see what is REALLY going on and that they are crippling us militarily for the next generation at least? I have no idea, but 200 coffins turning up at Brize since 2001 doesn't seem to have made much of an impact on those taking the decisions!

[engineer(retard)]

"It's when we physically don't have those people because, as you alluded to, because existing conditions have forced them to rush to the door, we are in deep trouble. In my opinion that is the point of 'overstretch' and we're certainly headed towards it."

Dallas

My subjective view is that when you get to this point you are not overstreched but broken.

regards

retard

[Impiger]

Ping Dit said:

Apparently, 80% of the RAF budget currently goes on Typhoon.

Which is of course utter tosh. The Typhoon attracts less than 10% of the Air Command budget. The equipment budget isn't the RAF's in any case but the Typhoon programme wouldn't get close to 80% of that either. Do check facts.

[The Helpful Stacker]

The PVR rate may be high but Harry Staish at Odious assures us that we have the lowest rate of PVR's in the RAF.

He wasn't quite so forthcoming with figures for personnel who aren't signing on though....:rolleyes:

[In Tor Wot]

Numbers aren't everything. The dilution rate of experience is cutting really deeply in some Branches (one of which has 70% of their SO2s with less than 3 years in rank).

Those taking options aren't 'routinely' counted, however, I understand that this was researched at Air Command recently and the results locked away securely!

The headline rate of PVRs is increasing, as are the option departures, hence the increased numbers on OACTU (DIOT for the elderly) next year where courses are to be increased to 150 (vice current 120). In addition they are running 3 recruitment boards a week at OASC (Vice 1) in order to get as many through the door as possible.

Just my humble opinion, but these increases are being brought in to paper over the crack that will start to appear next year in the officer cadre of the RAF. Dependent on which source you use, there will be a deficit of 24% of officers (i.e. 24% undermanned not recruitment) either next year or within 2 years. Whilst the time varies, independent sources have used the same number :eek:

A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said the forces were working hard but the current situation was "manageable".
Now that's what I call unmanageable.

[nigegilb]

In Tor Wot, aah yes, but you miss the subtle fact that the person who made that statement is Sir Jock Stirrup and he will not be in that post in 2 years time, so it really doesn't matter, does it?

More seriously, I completely agree with your post. Crisis within 18-24 months on the cards. And I also agree with another poster, this will take a generation to sort out.

The RAF is being sold down the river by people who should know better.

[expedite08]

Funny you should say that 'In Tor Wot' . I went through OASC in May 05 Literally as the doors were being closed on the numbers being accepted in due to the cut backs, and we all said then, even the selection panel agreed that this would bite the RAF hard on the ass in a few years. How true is has come! There was talk them and this too came from the boarding officers that the current twice a week selection was going to be reduced to one and less taken on at any time. The RAF has deserved all it gets. Who the hell would want to join up now.

[Hueymeister]

It's hardly surprising people are voting with their feet. Two wars fought for a regime that is good at waving the flag and wishing us all well, but the support is rubbish; poor equipment, lower pay than a good deal of our coalition partners (the Ozzie I sit next to is on tax-free pay, and extra allowances, and so stands to make in excess of £35,000 for his 6-monther!!), sub-standard medical care for our injured...and by injured we don't mean broken toes, it's multiple amputations, burns, and psycological damage too. The increase in tour length to 6 or 9-months will increase the push factor.

[BEagle]

In the last 30 years, the RAF has seen a progressive deterioration in every field.

Jock Strap should bloody well think back to how it was when we were both at RAFC Cranwell!

To restore the RAF to even half of what it was back then would take billions and decades to achieve.

As well as the closure or emasculation of all these places which were still open when I joined:

Abingdon
Acklington
Andover
Aston Down
Ballykelly
Bassingbourn
Bentwaters
Bicester
Biggin Hill
Binbrook
Bovingdon
Brawdy
Chivenor
Church Fenton
Cranwell North
Driffield
Elvington
Finningley
Fulbeck
Gaydon
Gravely
Greenham Common
Hamble
Honington
Hullavington
Kemble
Leconfield
Lindholme
Little Rissington
Manby
Newton
North Luffenham
North Weald
Oakington
Ouston
Pershore
Scampton
Spitalgate
St Davids
Stradishall
Strubby
Swinderby
Syerston
Tangmere
Ternhill
Thorney Island
Waterbeach
Wattisham
Watton
West Malling
West Raynham
White Waltham


There is the loss both of core military capabilities (strategic bombing and photographic reconnaissance, for example) - but more importantly, the loss of personnel in sufficient numbers or even the means to train them.

It is not a happy picture.

As they sowed, so shall they reap....

[Climebear]

Beagle

Honington - emasculate?

emasculate deprive of force or vigour; make feeble or ineffective

Honington is the depot of the RAF Regiment and home to several RAF Regiment sqns that are demonstrating daily in hot and sandy places that they are neither feeble nor ineffective - nor are they deprived of force or vigour.

[BEagle]

True.

But the RAF Honington of my day operated 4 squadrons of nuclear strike aircraft.....

[Climebear]

But the RAF Honington of today, like the majority of the rest of the Service, operates forces that are actually used.

[glum]

So surely the Honnington of his day was a far better one - threatened much and had no need to actually be operational.

Thank f*ck for that!

[Wessexman]

The PVR rate has trebled over the past few months.

The only way of obtaining this knowledge is for the desk officers to physically count the paper applications that pass accross their desk, there is no other way to monitor the pvr outflow rates.

The sad thing is that ACOS manning have no idea how to rectify this unsustainable exodus.

That said-neither do I!

1. Work/Life balance-There is none, and there will continue to be none for the foreseeable future.

2. Money-I'm unaffordable to a public Service. A meer 59k is peanuts when I will die within 5 years of retirement if I stay in 'til 55 (statistically-of course).(and get a 50% pay rise when I leave!)

3. Working conditions. Ummm-not so modern and comfortable-the prospect of RAF stansted-even with flag poles out the front......

4. Working within an honest forward looking, innovative public Service that is both focused and driven towards excellence-thought it was there when I joined, occasions when it was, certainly not now.
I now find myself working for a company that is run along civilian lines (but without the freedom of manouevre and competence) with just 'acceptable' standards, that expects the loyalty and committment of a public Service.
You cannot pay for one and expect another.

When I leave I will improve 1-3 and most of 4.
Statistically and morally (first time for everything!)I have to leave.

[nigegilb]

Frm Sunday Times

........The men had been resting as there were no aircraft moving and were about to go back on patrol when the mortar landed, killing them instantly. Squadron Leader Jason Sutton, their commanding officer, described the men’s loss as “simply devastating” to his small unit of about 100 men. The deaths take to 162 the total of British servicemen and women who have died since the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Of those, 126 were killed in action.

Yesterday a military source in Basra said in an e-mail that attacks on the base there had reached up to 30 a day and the forces were “relying on luck to keep them alive”

He added that many personnel were living in tents with no overhead protection. The source said the attack that killed the RAF men had also caused “lots of injuries”........

I also understand that people are relying on luck to keep them alive. 300 rocket attacks last month and a casevaced air traffic controller due stress of attack after only 2 odd weeks in theatre. Four years on and men are still sleeping in tents despite the continuous attacks. When AVM Loader visited recently his pep talk, (allegedly), to troops in Basra was that being in RAF these days was like being on the *train to glasgow. Its a bit rough and if they dont like it they can just get off the train!***

Now then, this is the RAF High Command approach to leadership. No word of improving the safety of the accommodation at Basra, just tough words about the future. Well, I have some words for AVM Loader. Given the choice between the RAF train to Glasgow and the Virgin train to Glasgow, I'd much rather travel with Virgin thank you very much. Judging by the PVR figures, a great many people are jumping off the train and catching the Virgin special.

[Double Hush]

Or as heard from one of the posters last week, the mis-match between out and in-flow is such that the RAF is rapidly heading for the state whereby it will be unable to sustain its own training regime, mainly on the aircrew front admittedly. Once the service reduces beyond a certain level, it goes down past a self-sustaining level and unless something drastic is done, will be virtually irrecoverable with the current commitments.

It's a worry.

[skaterboi]

PVR rates may well be at a 10 year high but, as said previously, the danger in the meduim term (from an aircrew perspective) is retention past 16/38.

The vast majority of the captains where I am don't want to carry on past 38, can see no reason why promotion is the way forward, and are merely staying in for the hours, pension and gratuity. Which means further erosion of experince on the front line sqns.

There's no question that 99% of the Sqn are can-do people and take pride what we're doing. However the constant erosion of standards, life/work balance and increase in time away is slowly but surely undermining the career aspirations of the boys. Most (me included of late) think of it more as a job and not so much as a way of life which is very sad.

The reason I will stay in is because of the poeple I work and fly with. But I will go at 38, and I know lots who will too.

The state of the RAF has changed my thinking dramatically so much so, that I would now urge my son not to join. If we had a military to be proud of then I wouldn't hesitate, and that for me is the saddest part.

[weevhearditb4]

Yes indeed our son joined four years ago and has now signed off (years notice) i wonder how many of these are in the pipeline very much more than the PVR's i suspect.

He signed off for the following "i will not be party to ordering men into death traps( Vehicles) and situations that we have no control over". I have the DVD from Iraq of same and its all rather disturbing.

What i find bizarre is the bulldog FV as used in Iraq is a varient of something i drove in 1970 i.e a 432 which was old then?

[Pontius Navigator]

What i find bizarre is the bulldog FV as used in Iraq is a varient of something i drove in 1970 i.e a 432 which was old then?

Variant nothing. They are using upengined and uparmoured 432's out there are patrol support ambulances.

[Pontius Navigator]

When AVM Loader visited recently his pep talk, (allegedly), to troops in Basra was that being in RAF these days was like being on the *train to glasgow. Its a bit rough and if they dont like it they can just get off the train!***

Well said Clive, tell it like it is.:mad: (if true)

attacks on the base there had reached up to 30 a day

300 rocket attacks last month

Mm that could be well over 300 this month then?

Can anyone remind me about Dien Bien Phu?:(

[BEagle]

It doesn't surprise me that Loader would come out with such a stupid comment - although I hope it isn't true.

I wonder how many Glaswegian servicemen would dearly have loved to be 'on the train to Glasgow'.

[Melchett01]

Post moved to more relevant 'Problems in the Forces' thread.

Melchett

[PingDit]

Old figures I know, but interesting nonetheless....

EQUIPMENT EXPENDITURE
Defence Equipment and Collaborative Equipment Programmes
Battlespace Manoeuvre QuantityTotal CostIn serviceNotesTyphoon232£11,291 million*2003Fighter AircraftTyphoon1£211 million2005Aircrew Training SystemBVRAAMclassified£1,204 million2012Air-To-Air MissileA400M25£2,644 million2011Heavy Transport AircraftSupport vehicle5,324 units£1,362 million20084,851 cargo; 314 recovery & 69 trailersC vehiclen/a£710 million2006Commercial provision of C vehiclesTerrier65£299 million2008Armoured Engineer VehicleLFATGW378£310 million2005Light Forces ATGWNLAW14,002£365 million2006Short Range Anti-armour Weapon Precision Attack Type 45 Destroyer6£5,896 million2009Anti-Air Warfare VesselAstute Class Submarine3£3,492 million2009Attack SubmarineSting Rayclassified£599 million2006Torpedo life extension and enhancementNimrod Mk 412£3,808 million2010Reconnaissance and Attack Patrol AircraftFuture Joint Combat AircraftTBD£1,914 millionTBDFighter and Attack AircraftPrecision guided bomb2,303£352 million2007Air LaunchedGMLRS6,204£263 million2007Guided Missile Launched Rocket System Information Superiority ASTOR5 aircraft, 8 ground stations£954 million2006Airborne Stand Off RadarSkynetn/a£2,775 million2005Satellite Communications SystemBowman47,000 radios£2,000 million2005Tactical CommunicationsBowman hardware & softwaren/a£339 million2005Common equipment for a variety of roles
Note: TBD - To be decided, n/a - Not Applicable, Typhoon costs £11,291 million are based on the cost of £49.1 million per aircraft as given in the MoD Major Projects Report 2004.

[PingDit]

Know how he feels, my son's in Basra at the moment. He informs me that he knows of at least 100 there alone who have put their papers in.

PingDit

[dallas]

Or as heard from one of the posters last week, the mis-match between out and in-flow is such that the RAF is rapidly heading for the state whereby it will be unable to sustain its own training regime, mainly on the aircrew front admittedly. Once the service reduces beyond a certain level, it goes down past a self-sustaining level and unless something drastic is done, will be virtually irrecoverable with the current commitments.

It's a worry.

Well if the number of people PVR/Option'ing is as high as I suspect it is, based unscientifically on the mood I see on the street, we're headed towards dire straits. Some do say they're staying, normally for job security rather than because they're enjoying it, but many more seem to be on their way out or dreaming of reaching their option point.

The problem for those who do stay is they will undoubtedly be exploited to plug the gaps when shortfalls begin to bite hard and in some smaller branches I wonder who will be the first to be told he/she hasn't got an out-of-area replacement! In the short-term promotion might even suck a few of the disenchanted back into the fold - and prospects will certainly be good in about 2 years time - but the cost will also be proportionally higher in terms of back-to-back dets that some already face. This will undoubtedly be a stealth feature of op creep.

The one problem I have is IF CAS or his pals actually asked me why I am so disenchanted, I'm not sure what tangible evidence I could provide him with. Sure, there is the hearsay of forums like this, but that's not it. As some have alluded to over the years, it's the chip, chip, chip away at quality of life, the apparent lack of anyone steering in a single direction, the wasteful initiatives, 'upgrades' and costly brochures that make hollow claims, the inconsistency and contradictions of budgetary thrift. But faced with my accusations, who is actually in a position to do anything about it? The answer is very few people, all of whom are trying to deal with more imminent problems during their watch.

And while they could be accused of short-sightedness, what exactly do we expect them to do to get things properly sorted out?

If you're staying, expect it to get worse and you won't be disappointed.

[nigegilb]

It appears that Stirrup's 2 year warning has been revised upwards. Seems everything is OK after all, well as soon as they draw down another 500 troops from Iraq.

The Ministry of Defence has responded to a report published in a UK newspaper which claims that the UK is running short of troops, in particular for emergencies.

We have made no secret of the fact that the Armed Forces are working hard. The situation in respect of current operations remains manageable. We have already stated publicly that if the current tempo of operations continues at this pace for another 10 to 15 years, we will have to revisit our planning assumptions.

:ugh:
In recent months, we have drawn down our force levels in a number of operations. The Armed Forces' mission in Northern Ireland will end on 31 July, we withdrew the bulk of our forces from Bosnia-Herzegovina earlier this year and only yesterday we announced that we will reduce further our force levels in Iraq by 500.

We are certainly not complacent about the longer term implications, which we are acutely aware of and are addressing.

[tablet_eraser]

Speaking as someone who has recently put in his papers for PVR, it really doesn't surprise me that I'm not alone. Future prospects inside the RAF are so grim that if I want to get ahead in life, enjoy a fulfilling career and maintain my quality of life, it makes more sense for me to leap into the unknown and head for London than to remain in the Service. I've been in the Service for all of my adult life, and I'm gutted that I feel I have to leave; but, as Loader said to my colleagues here at a briefing (and it is true), "if you don't like it, get out."

I stopped short of quoting him in my papers, of course... :}

CAS stood up at the RAF Leadership Conference last week and warned us all of "tougher" times ahead. In a Comprehensive Spending Review year, at war on two fronts, and with a PM who has been responsible for imposing cuts that led to a third of the RN being mothballed, hundreds of ac and tanks being withdrawn, and thousands of soldiers, sailors and airmen being sacked, who fancies their chances any more?

[Ali Barber]

In view of Loader's (alleged) comments in Basra, if they can be verified, why not just write to him and say "this is my stop, please pass on my PVR paperwork".

[vecvechookattack]

PVR rates may well be at a 10 year high but, as said previously, the danger in the meduim term (from an aircrew perspective) is retention past 16/38.

This point has been discussed before. The whole idea of a break point at 16/38 is exactly that. They don't want you after that point. Only a few get to continue past the break point. If the Military wanted you to stay past the 16/38 point then they would change it to the 20/42 point...or the 24/46 point.

The 16/38 break point is not designed for you to choose whther you want to stay or not....its chosen for them to get rid of you.

[nigegilb]

Vev, only to a certain extent. Many officers are now refusing promotion to Sqn Ldr and electing to leave at 38 with pension. A few weeks ago I was told that 7 Sqn Cdrs had PVR'd planning to leave. A couple of Stn Cdrs PVR'd. It may have been true in the past that at Flt Lt level they wanted you out, not any more. Flt Lt's are turning down further service and some officers are paying back their retention pay. All this unprecedented.

Attention is focussed on PVR rate. I understand multi-engine pilot PVR rate has hit 24 this year already. Previous record 16 for a 12 month period. Total number of officers leaving needs to be analysed. That said, pretty obvious to me this is leading to crisis in a matter of months.

[stickmonkeytamer]

How many people are choosing to stay past their 16/38 point if they are not promoted? We don't have the fantastic pay rates that we alledgedly had years ago in comparison to our civilian counterparts, nor the perks of being in the military (see America for how it should be done- as soon as you show your 1250, your almost paid to rent cars from them... I got a $700 rental for $50 as soon as I told them I was military). If you are in your job for the money please go- it's not that great. If you love the job and those you work with and think that you can make a change for the better at any level, please stay. If you're staying in because you are not particularly good in your job, but your First RO has written you up better than you actually are and you know that you cannot find a better paid job outside because, in all honesty, you're not actually "that good", please go elsewhere so that those of us who still care about the military, thrive on the future challenges ahead, and want to try and improve things can get on with our jobs despite what is thrown up against us.

Sir Clive, If you are reading this, please don't be like the last CinC. Don't be a military tourist. Make your mark and leave your legacy. Everyone below you will support you. I am accutely aware of the powers you do have and what you can get done- just please ride into the meeting with the higherarchy on your Harley...:D

SMT

[mystic_meg]

SMT:
Perhaps you should take yourself off to the bathroom and squeeze yourself out, so that you can suck up a bit more? :mad:
Why wait until the man reads it? Why don't you read it to him whilst you tuck him up in bed with his nice mug of cocoa that you've made for him?
Sycophantic Chiseller :mad:

[Pontius Navigator]

38/18 was introduced about 1960 vice a 20/42 as a recruiting incentive. Over 40 and you were over the hill. Flt lts were finding it increasingly difficult to gain employment once over 40. Few sqn ldrs came out then as they usually had a straight commission to 55; there were very few round then anyway.

Many sqns like Canberra and Hunter had sqn ldr sqn cdrs. V-Bomber sqns had a wg cdr and 2 sqn ldrs under sqn servicing which dropped to just one sqn ldr after that

[PerArdua]

While Aircrew are definately on the critical path it would seem that all branches are voting with their feet, RAFP, Admin and Engineering are all turning down further service to take the 38/16 way out. PVR is less of an option now because they have increased the waiting time to 12 months, at least when it was 6 months you could go for the interviews and be offered the job and be out by the time the new job started. Therefore it is seen as a 'positive' retentention scheme by the ivory towers.

PA

[Wessexman]

SMT-I somewhat admire your youthful, rose tinted outlook for the RAF. I think I still possessed that sort of outlook until a few years ago. I personally do care, which is yet another reason for my leaving. Just bear in mind that the final figure for personnel is about the 32000 mark, with no 'refreshing' reduction in our commitment to assist this countries foreign policy. Perhaps that is why there hasn't been too much of a problem which manning? If you can change your own little bit for the better then you are doing your job-well done, or BZ as the dark blue say. However, I believe that if you consider the strategic lack of focus, lack of money, and lack of political will to face current and future challenges any free thinking individual must come to the same conclusion. I shall leave it for you to decide what the conclusion is. I just hope for your sake that the spin and political half truths that have permiated the higher command levels way of thinking and 'selling' news reverts back to honest, forthright and accurate announcements. I hope that GB and his government will set the scene-but I may be in for a long wait.

I can also confirm that what the AVM said (regarding don't like it get out)was true-he also stated an aweful lot of drivel at Bzn-much the same as CAS had been saying. Overall, I was (as were a lot of individuals inc. senior guys....) completely underwhelmed by the whole 1 hr 20 of a 30 minute brief! In fact he said absolutely nothing that made me think twice about leaving-just the reverse.

By the way, during the last manning crisis, it was concluded that if they could get people to stay for an extra 2 years-there would be no manning crisis-in comes AFPS 05-job done. Unfortunately less than 5% uptake for AFPS 05 for those currently serving. Also bear in mind that 8.9% of a small number of people has a big impact on effectiveness (economies of scale etc).

[BEagle]

Meanwhile the airlines continue to snap up every ex-RAF pilot who applies....

I saw the control column starting to move aft and fthe rudder moving slowly to the stops in 2001. It was the "Let's see if they will put up with living in $hit during Saif Sarea II" approach in 2001 which convinced me - and we all knew that Bush and Bliar were going to bumble into war soon after SS2 had 'identified' the relevant lessons. 2002 confirmed this - time to pull the B&Y. Thank God.

Talked to an ex 'career' mate yesterday who left for the airlines a year or so ago - like everyone else who has done so he wondered how he stood it for so long.

Interesting to see that many of the 'Great Leaders' of the 2001-3 period who ruined a good part of the RAF have all now PVR'd or are in the process of doing so. At least they won't be able to do any more damage - but their legacy is shameful to say the least.

[blogger]

Why are we all jumping ship (so to speak)

Latest data from Iraq this month (so far) 57 US troops dead, and 7 UK troops dead.

US troop levels 150,000 UK troop level 5,500.

Therefore you are 3.35 times more likely to die as a UK serviceman than a US one. :ugh:

Unprotected servicemen FULL STOP

[vecvechookattack]

So, UK servicemen are leaving because they might die. Maybe I should remind you of the military covenant...

The soldier …

- must be prepared personally to make the decision to engage an enemy or to place themselves in harm’s way;
- must make personal sacrifices - including the ultimate sacrifice - in the service of the Nation;
- must demonstrate high degrees of personal and collective commitment, self-sacrifice, forbearance and mutual trust;
- must accept that conflict is still the province of chaos, danger, exhaustion, fear, loneliness and privation;
- has to forgo some of the rights enjoyed by those outside the Armed Forces;
- must be available at any time, to go anywhere and to carry out a wide variety of potential missions in support of government policy;
- accepts that this demands hard and realistic training, the unquestioning acceptance of authority and sound discipline;
- has to understand and accept the political and legal responsibilities of their actions;


Having interviewed many, many young men and women who submit thier notice I can categorically state that not 1 of them said that the reason they were leaving was in case they died.

Now, no one likes it, nor should it be accepted but to state that the reason the PVR rates are so high is because there is a chance you might die is wrong. We all know there is a chance, we have all lost friends and workmates and god forbid it should happen again but it will. Everytime you strap an aircraft to your backside there is a chance...and we take that chance, we minimise the risks as best we can but there is a chance that it may be our turn next and we accept that risk.

[nunquamparatus]

Fellow Pruners,

Yes, its depressing and I know, for those who have been in for more than a dog watch (as we Pussers say), that it must seem pretty dire BUT the grass ain't much greener on t'other side. I'm currently 'down under' and if you think the UK MoD plc has problems you should see the ADF - completely screwed. Bigger retention issues, less kit, politicians just as ill-informed as ours (not always their fault mind you) and 'stretch' as bad as the UK's. Oh, and a country the size of Europe to 'defend'.

I'm still bloody proud to be a serving Officer in Her Majesty's Armed Forces and, despite the inter-service banter we see on these threads, I think the British public should be unbelievably proud of the dedication and sacrifice of all the Armed Forces (yes, even the blunties). It's not the politicians or General Public's fault that they are ill-informed and, in some cases, ignorant of what we do. I'd be more tempted to lay that blame at the foot of successive CDS/COS and various DCC/DPR etc organisations. Just look at our boys and girls now - stretched from pillar to post - Afghanistan to Gloucester - under-pinning it all is the pride in the units/regiments/squadrons we serve in. Those who want to leave, crack on - I know a few people who've left for the 'highly paid' jobs 'in the city'. Andersons/EDS etc and the airlines all want their pound of flesh in one way or another. Me? I'm staying amongst those I'm proud to work with and for, rather than for some strawberry mivvies (civvies) who would chop off a limb or two to do half the stuff we take for granted (especially the aviators).:D

[BEagle]

Less kit?

Super Hornet coming.
KC-30B being built.
C-17A coming...

....none of which are being leased or operated under PFI bolleaux.

[Not Long Here]

.......plus the ADF are being very positive wrt pay and conditions of service to aid retention and recruitment.

[Climebear]

Expending on vecvechookattack's comment bout the military covenant. The military covenant is a 2-way undertaking between the Nation and its soldiers - see below (my emboldening).

Soldiers will be called upon to make personal sacrifices - including the ultimate sacrifice - in the service of the Nation. In putting the needs of the nation and the Army before their own, they forgo some of the rights enjoyed by those outside the Armed Forces. In return, British soldiers must always be able to expect fair treatment, to be valued and respected as individuals, and that they (and their families) will be sustained and rewarded by commensurate terms and conditions of service. In the same way, the unique nature of military land operations means that the Army differs from all other institutions, and must be sustained and provided for accordingly by the nation. This mutual obligation forms the Military Covenant between the nation, the Army and each individual soldier; an unbreakable common bond of identity, loyalty and responsibility which has sustained the Army and its soldiers throughout its history. It has perhaps its greatest manifestation in the annual commemoration of Armistice Day, when the nation keeps covenant with those who have made the ultimate sacrifice, giving their lives in action.

While our soldiers (and sailors, marines, and airmen) are meeting their part of the deal - those at very high levels in the British Army have questioned whether the Nation is meeting its part.

[tablet_eraser]

I have to agree; I am not leaving because of the risk of death. That's something we all just have to accept. Likewise, as much as I might disagree with Government policy, it emphatically is not the reason I'm leaving.

I remain proud to be a serving officer, and I'm upset that prospects within the military are so poor that I feel the need to leave. But there it is. If the Service lived up to the pap that I was sold as a starry-eyed 18-year old at the AFCO, I'd still be looking forward to a fulfilling career.

[nigegilb]

Vecv,
Here is a link to 13 pages of comment from ARRSE, subject, "Iraq, sorry no longer in support." I suggest you read it. Nobody doubts the bravery of British troops, the extraordinary sacrifices made over the last few years. Read this thread before getting sanctimonious here. You might be happy to give your life, in an unprotected tent, vehicle, aircraft, but many people have decided that, for the sake of their family, for the upheavals, time away, risk of dying, lack of equipment issues, lack of belief in the task, it just isn't worth it any more. I certainly do not believe that enough is being done to protect British troops.

That said, I salute anyone who decides to stay in the service, but I would not blame anyone for leaving. It is a moot point to blame risk of death. That it is a factor, I am sure. The effect of death is devastating on a family. And if the war is deemed unnecessary, the devastation is felt even more keenly. The military covenant was broken on the opening day of the Iraq war, it is only now that the true effects are being felt. I sense that servicemen are weary. Weary of continuous ops, with no prospect of any let up in the future. The leadership is guilty of pushing too hard, accepting too many tasks. The High Command needs to rapidly reappraise, the damage being done is serious and lasting.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=73019.html

Iraq. Sorry, no longer in support

"No. Not worth the life of any British soldier, sailor or airman. The savagery there is a direct consequence of their culture and all of its deeply ignorant baggage, which for me is emphatically not worth defending, and especially not by British men and women. Let's get out, as quickly as we can. Any reason for the original war there is now far away in history, justified though it may have been"........

........."As recently as a month ago I would have argued the toss over this....BUT

I've lost a couple of mates in Iraq and a couple in Afghanistan and as upsetting as that was I dealt with it because as I saw it it's part and parcel of taking the Queen's shilling.

For some reason...today, perhaps because I've had a really bad day for various reasons, I don't know..even though I didn't know them and I was a soldier not a crab the news of the 3 RAF boys who copped it in Basra reduced me to tears for a considerable length of time. I don't give a flying fcuk for the Arabs, racist? maybe, I don't care what anyone thinks of that, I've just had enough of seeing coffins draped in the UJ flying back to Brize. They don't want us there even though we're trying to help them ....so let's leave them to it. Their godforsaken countries aren't worth another drop of British blood... "

[toddbabe]

:D:D:D:D:D And I'll second that! If I had the courage to leave now and not wait those few tantalising years till my pension then I surely would, the reason? It's crap! it's not remotely the same Airforce I joined nearly twenty years ago, above all else however I don't want to die and although my job isn't nearly as high risk as the boys on the ground I don't fancy copping it and leaving my poor family behind for these two utterly pointless and never ending conflicts (civil wars).
Was speaking to a veteran of the Second World War the other day (88) and he couldn't believe that Blair is able to sleep at night at least in them days you knew that what you were doing was right and in a just cause!
Can anyone honestly tell me that they believe we are doing a just job out in Iraq?
I don't want some Officer my wife has never met knocking at the door with the news that I have died in some pointless bloody politicians ego trip of a war.
Should I leave now? probably but can I afford to? no so I press on in my slightly risky job and hope for the best in the next couple of years.
Being in the Armed forces is inherently dangerous and whilst few of us thought about it that much when we joined, dying isn't actually that appealing!

[Report Line]

Toddbabe,

course you can afford it financially - can you afford not to morally?

[toddbabe]

Report line trust me I think about it all the time and look on enviously at those that are leaving now but I am measuring the risk against the money and in an ideal world I should say yes and pack my bags! also I believe that I am due and have earned my pension and gratuity and to bang out now as tempting as it is would be a big mistake.
Truthfully my job isn't that risky at least not compared to some and perhaps it is materialistic but the years will pass quick enough and with a dose of luck and profesionalism I should be enjoying being a Mr soon enough.

[PingDit]

This conversation is all based on why people are leaving the forces. Sure, it's upsetting to see or hear of our military being killed or injured, but we've always faced those same concerns the world over for many, many years. Believing in the struggle you're currently involved in helps a lot too. However, I honestly believe that the reason people are leaving is now solely that we are so severely overstreatched through manning reductions. This has led to virtually everone living out of suitcases for half of every year. When they joined up, perhaps they had some sort of family life. For many, that has been reduced to rubble over recent years.
The answer? Not too sure honestly, but in the short term, probably to pull out of Iraq immediately, but in the long term - restore our service numbers to those of around 5 years ago so that if we get similar situations, we may be better placed to deal with them.

PingDit

[blogger]

I placed the post ref the death rates (US V's UK) in Iraq just to see how it would be taken and the sort of response it would get. Hard facts there are no getting away from them.

For me after 25 years (plus 5 in the ATC) I have loved the RAF since a small lad. However things have changed too far now.

Years ago we always seemed to be firefighting at work I guess that was to keep us on our toes and breed a 'Can do approach.' But that good will has been taken to the limit and pushed over the top, to such an extent I for one say NO we just can't keep pushing and pushing with less men and kit to attempt to even try to do the same job any more.

I have to to stand up to my boss and say no to the jobs to hand. Why? I still want jets to fly knowing they are safe to do so. I am fed up with the feeling or ERRRRRRRR in the back of my mind. It's not my bum on the seat but it's my neck on the line. Problem is that this just makes for longer working hours, quality has a price, but so does my home life.

As for the Airforce dumming down, it has been slow comming in but look carefully you will see it. No more second and third line techies required, its back to Flem's (fuel and tyres.) Lower technical training standards is showing it's ugly head, C/T's and Sgt's are now required to solve real snags that JT's and Cpl's once could do.

So what's my reason for going:

Risk managment has taken over from the time given to do quality work. Dumming down (Training).
Spares and poor kit (No kit.)
Home life.
Slow promotion.
Suit case living in 18 man tents in the sand pit for 4 months at a time. (The Army has it worse I know.)
JPA and actual expenses that just take so much time to do (bring back rates and F1771's).
Choice of postings has gone for good. An overseas tour means the sand pit.
Longer working hours.
The lack of someone that will stand up and fight for the rights of servicmen/women without worrying about their own promotion plan.:ugh:
Blair and Bush taking us into Iraq that was just plain wrong.
No let up (no light at the end of the tunnel) it just keeps getting worse and my bubble has popped. It's time to move on and leave more work for the poor bugger's still left in, sorry guy's.

Best thing I have seen in years to put a ray of light on the Airforce was pay 2000......er 2001. At least that gave us a nudge up with pay.

Where's that chuff chart.

[toddbabe]

Spot on blogger spot on!

[Ali Barber]

If the fear of death isa factor, I suspect it should be qualified as a fear of death due to body armour not being available, or fear of death due to no overhead cover being available. So it is not the fear of death itself, but the shortages of kit resulting in needless deaths.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Or fear of death from sleeping in tents with no overhead protection, near the big target marker, Basrah Air Station, Iraq.

Who wants to lie on the ground 20-30 times a day and wait for the one you don't hear?

[An Teallach]

LMF!!!!!!!!

Common sense more like! Time to ease up on the whisky, AIDU! ;)

[The Helpful Stacker]

Thanks for your adult response.:rolleyes:

I've done my share of of ops, the enjoyment soon wears off especially when you're not exactly getting wholehearted support for doing your duty from the powers that be other than media friendly sound bites.

BTW I'm glad I'm leaving too, otherwise I'd have stayed in.:ugh:

[nigegilb]

Sadly, I feel a once only opportunity has passed through the fingers of those in power. Huge expectation that Brown might be the man to change tack on Iraq has evaporated. CDS, on R4 World at One gave an extensive interview about the state of play. No word of a draw down in Iraq, only the possibility of more troops for Afg.

We are sending troops to 2 civil wars with no prospect of an end in sight for either.

Forget 10 year PVR records, stand by for an exodus. Outflow has been disguised by draw down. No more. The real situation will soon become obvious.

[In Tor Wot]

Blogger hit a large number of nails square on:
Quote:
Risk management has taken over from the time given to do quality work. Dumming down (Training).
Spares and poor kit (No kit.)
Home life.
JPA and actual expenses that just take so much time to do (bring back rates and F1771's).
Choice of postings has gone for good. An overseas tour means the sand pit.
The lack of someone that will stand up and fight for the rights of servicemen/women without worrying about their own promotion plan.

The big things like deployments and ops are what we do, we expect that and get on with it (last year was the first without a deployment since 1991- screened post otherwise I’d have had another 4-6 months somewhere). Having to do more with less has been a common refrain since I joined - I remember the 'old and bold' predicting doom and destruction of the world as we knew it when the RAF was cut from 98000 to 94500 (halcyon days!) in 1985.

Nowadays I find it is the little things that really get under my skin:

Introduction of JPA when it clearly wasn't ready, but hey, let's take it 'at risk'
Promotion notification by workflow and/or email
Reduction in disturbance allowance that was disseminated by PPrune(!)
Paying food and accommodation for courses you have no choice in attending
Allowances on a system that is so Byzantine most people give up (but I suspect that was the plan all along).

All these things are indicative of a management that doesn't care about their staff - they'll put up with it. It also highlights the discomfort they are willing to put their personnel through for very little return - how much are they really saving by making people pay the food/accom for example? And where is that money being spent - sure as hell it isn't on improving either the food or the accommodation.

I've only listed a few things that have irritated over the past few months, and I am sure that lots of other people could add to it, but they are the constant chips at the terms and conditions we have come to expect. As such they are all the more corrosive to the morale because they are endless, in one direction only, are meaningless savings in the greater scheme, and cause needless angst amongst those already under pressure.

I have thoroughly enjoyed my time in the RAF and would love to continue to work with some of the best people I've ever come across, but I'm afraid I'm not going to continue to do so whilst we have senior officers dismissing genuine concerns with 'don't like it, get out' comments. I am truly sorry to have to say I don't like it, and I'll be leaving now. :(

[ScapegoatisaSolution]

Slight thread drift. Out of the country at present but have heard that Innsworth is closed due to the floods in Glos. If this is true then PVRs won't be actioned until the PMA (now ACOS Manning I believe) deskies get back.
Any news on when they might get back in?
Scapegoat

[vecvechookattack]

in tor wot.... can you just clear up a point from your thread...

Promotion notification by workflow and/or email

How did you used to get notified?

[ZH875]

A very nice letter came through the post in a very nice blue envelope.

[tablet_eraser]

Slight thread drift. Out of the country at present but have heard that Innsworth is closed due to the floods in Glos. If this is true then PVRs won't be actioned until the PMA (now ACOS Manning I believe) deskies get back.
Any news on when they might get back in?

There's a notice on the Intranet saying that ACOS Manning is relocating to AIR Command while Innsworth is sorted out; I think, in any case, that the problem will only be with mains water and/or electricity, so they should be back in fairly short order.

Of course, one would hope that something as important as a PVR would still be boarded correctly despite the Innsworth problem; that said, I'm not sure where it is boarded or by whom (the application states that it's the Air Force Board's decision, but I suspect they're a tad busy!).

Whatever, I hope they don't keep me and others waiting for long, because I have my future to plan!!

[vecvechookattack]

A very nice letter came through the post in a very nice blue envelope.

Strange, In the RN you only get the letter when you are NOT going to be promoted. If you get promoted you generally get a phone call from your boss.

[ZH875]

Strange, In the RN you only get the letter when you are NOT going to be promoted. If you get promoted you generally get a phone call from your boss.

No, it is NOT strange, it was done like that in the RAF for many years.

Believe it or not VVHA, other services may actually do things a different way to what VVHA knows about.

Maybe, just maybe, you will think of the junior services, before making yourself look an even bigger pr@t than normal.

[Pontius Navigator]

I remember one 'feast of the passover', the New Year's eve ball (remember them?) when the Staish read out the list of names. One Eng O had been seen earlier but was no longer there at midnight.

A runner was despatched and he was brought down to the ballroom. We were all in Mess Kit and he was resplendent in RAF Issue blue and white striped wincette pyjama, a woolly dressing gown and carpet slippers to be told, unbelievingly, that he was now a sqn ldr. He left the unit 3 days later as in those days posting followed promotion.

[SARREMF]

Ouch, that hit the spot!

I think we get letters, RAF, because they, PMA, are not exactly sure where we are so can't really signal us or call us on a telephone. They know that the postal system was contracted out some time ago and thus it will eventually get to the individual after several re-directions - without giving rise to a viable customer complaint because the target for contract payment is under 3 re-directions and within 60 days. And, since their minimum notice to the said person is 60 days for a posting from issue of the letter they will be within their own 'Customer charter' and 'Mission statement'. Thus the system is fit-for-purpose with minimal inherent risk from the customer interface [desky]

The fact that the poor old promoted person is now late for the course he was supposed to be on pre his [or her] promotion is irrelevant and actually just highlights that in the next rank they need to step up to the plate regarding their own admin skills. However, sadly it is too late to stop the payment being taken from their pay for the course they failed to attend. Moreover, since they have not attended, they can not be promoted, a letter will follow in the next 60 days detailing the recovery method of the overissue of pay at the higher promoted rate. It is intended to repay the course food fees at 0.0001p per quarter over the next 90 years and reclaim the overissue of pay in a lump sum next week. This will mean said person will have zero pay for XXX months.

You couldn't make it up -----actually I did! But you know what I mean!

[vecvechookattack]

ZH875... Of course I will. No problem.








..............




Whilst I'm here, would you mind editing your post and replacing it with something in English? Just in case you might make yourself look like an even bigger pr@t.

[Horror box]

This has been in interesting thread, and here is my tuppence for what it is worth. I have recently left and found a job almost immediately flying offshore. I left for all the reasons stated. I enjoyed most of my time, but like many got ground down by the little things, of which there were so many. Most of these boiled down to the current and abismal penny pinching everywhere. JPA was really the final straw, and actually quite a large motivator in my case. There are many jobs outside, so the decision is not as hard as some may think. The Armed Forces in general are treating its people with an appalling lack of concern, and that is manifesting itself in many ways. Not wanting to rub it in, but the grass is definitley greener in the other side. My admin is all taken care of by the HR dept. Whenever I go away the hotel is booked, hire car is waiting and extra allowance goes straight into my bank account, without me having to fill out 7 forms in triplicate, apply on line to be told my application is waiting for approval, only to never appear. If there is a problem, I speak to a real person in a real office face to face, and it is sorted straight away (didn't it used to be like that?) I dont even need to worry about it. I can just focus on my job, and my time off is just that.
I find it very depressing the way the forces are going. I will miss some great people, and some good times, but not the appalling organisation. Unless things start to change very soon, and the focus moves back to proper man management and good old fashioned leadership, the current problems are going to continue to increase, and we really will see a crisis.
Rant over!!

[nigegilb]

HB, this sense of being valued again, appears to be a common theme amongst those who have recently left. Does make you wonder about the computerised man-management in the RAF. God knows what will happen when it impacts the Army. The surprise by how well looked after you are in the commercial world is a real eye-opener to everyone who experiences it!

[The Gorilla]

Nigegilb,

I couldn't agree more and it is so refreshing to experience. Going on a course? Got to lodge? Speak to one person in HR on the phone, all booked. Meals paid for, claim back expenses just receipts required. Couldn't be easier and no sharing rooms thank you!

Of course the big difference is that if my company hacks me off I can truly cost it dearly just by being inflexible. My good will is proportional to the size of my overtime cheque!

Like Horror box I also find this very depressing..
:ugh:

[Hueymeister]

Alegedy a paper is circulating to bring in an incentive to help keep CS guys as the PAS pension is too good. A great way to keep people, but is it affordable across the board or will it be targeted? That will make it even more devisive.

[5staropsie]

"The lack of someone that will stand up and fight for the rights of servicemen/women without worrying about their own promotion plan."

The number one reason why overstretch will cost lives/aircraft soon. Manning in some trades not on dets, but left behind is at dangerously low levels. we are close to breaking point but the middle/snr management are too focused on their own careers to make a fuss.:ugh:

[BEagle]

.












.

[Chugalug2]

BEags 1, BEags 1, am not receiving you, am not receiving you. If you can read this transmission, key your transmitter once. I say again; if you can read this transmission, key your transmitter once. Over!

[AIDU]

Can it be true? Beags has been silenced. There is indeed a God............

[BEagle]

It was just a thread bump......

[El_Presidente]

Similar experience to Ops Man...I PVR'd last yr, after 11 yrs in. PVR was readily accepted, with the words 'Despite _______ exceptional operational ability, under current manning circumstances we can not support deferment...' blah...

Basically, there is no manning problem, as the RAF is being slimmed to fit a strength of 42000 odd...but with that figure, we can't sustain ops methinks...hence groundrush to quit Iraq.

Anyhoo, I too was asked what could be done to keep me in, 6 months after PVR accepted...Promotion even wafted under my snout...No ta Ma'am.

:}