MIT Engineering 8Hr Roster

[The Mr Fixit]

Worth a thread I'll say my southern brothers tell me the **** has hit the fan :*

Leave that has already been approved has been cancelled :mad:

I was stunned thats fkn illegal isn't if not it's definitely immoral but you are working at QF and giving your word about things means little there. :yuk:

one perhaps two guys per crew get leave, no shift swaps with applicable licences.

They sent B738, A330 and B767 freighter to Domestic it's a pity that they can't boycott it but the workplace laws would crucify our union which is trying to get ALL OF US to think as a collective not as mercenaries sorry i meant LAMEs

The big one that p!sses me right off is that the manager has held future training over the guys heads, apparently he'll send the B777 and the A320 training to domestic to reward them for their treachery.

For the base that seems to have the most pull union wise you've dropped the Sherrin Melbourne are you really what we despise the most, simply self serving company pr!cks.

Come on guys show some of the resilience that deposed Mr Potato Head

[domo]

can anyone give me a heads up.
Im not fully aware of the whats going on
something about a 8 hour roster and 47 vr's?

[PitPin]

One thing you forgot to mention about the MIT Lames is that they had the chance to continue on the same roster but they voted to be tough guys and hoped the merger would go away !:rolleyes:

[The Mr Fixit]

Stand firm guys I know the SC@BS from Sydney base are fkn with yas I wish they could suffer the reverse how quickly would their tune change.

To the SC@BS from Sydney your names have been posted for all to see, let's see you escape your brothers ire you need a good old fashioned reality check.

[chemical alli]

name and shame ,where exactly is this scab list you speak of ? or is it only wishful thinking ?

[The Mr Fixit]

I'm told The Voice has it all in hand :E

[acslame]

Boys , get your acts together.
It doesn't matter where you work one thing is for sure
M and his band of merry men are coming for you.
Be under no illusions to the contrary

If you start fighting amungst yourselves its all over.
The tactic is divide and conquer.
They will play domestic against international, base against base.
They will promise training and senior LAME positions.
Bottom line is that you guys in MEL had better bury the
hatchett and get some sort of common position because if you don't
then you will be easy pickings.
you need to back each other in this.

One thing you can count on, no one from per will
come over . You have our full suport.
STAND YOUR GROUND!!!!

[wingers]

as a young guy wanting to get go foward i cannot understant the anger and vitriol that you guys spread, am not sure but you guys are old relics, and have you noticed that there are only 4/5 of you posting, wake up or retire so us young guys can move foward with normal modern day work practices

[The Mr Fixit]

Wingers should read W@nker :}

Maybe a DMM position for you sniveling little pr!cks are high on their list

As for the guys on shift bury the hatchet in .............

[Angle of Attack]

as a young guy wanting to get go foward i cannot understant the anger and vitriol that you guys spread, am not sure but you guys are old relics, and have you noticed that there are only 4/5 of you posting, wake up or retire so us young guys can move foward with normal modern day work practices

Funniest thing I have read for ages, For one thing your not young, and second your a stupid middle manager wearing a suite which makes you think your special, and thats it!! Lol nice try! No way get stuck in full and hard, if no one keeps the planes running then the whole company stops, shove it into these idiotic suits heads. Go boys!

BTW Modern day work practises mean disaster!!! AWA in a recession means working for less than the dole.

[chemical alli]

i cant understand the hate and vitrol from mit and per,so what if the so called syd scabs fly to these ports and work the line.does it not stand to reason that the management have to explain costs incured due j class flights,allowances o/night accom and so forth,remember it takes so much time to actually access the ramp these days in any port ,with ohs and inductions.time is money and sooner or later higher up the ladder will be asking questions.

[acslame]

the only thing management understands. is delays.
they can fiddle the books to their hearts content to
hide costs.
Having to Explain to other managers in differant departments
why there aircraft are delayed, for whatever reason, is the only way
to get to these people.
you need to bring the pressure down on them from above.
REMEMBER
QANTAS MANAGEMENT ARE LIARS
Its all about their wallets come bonus time

[mahatmacoat]

Ali and you other Syd sc@bs pi$$ 0ff and keep your nose out of our business. How dare you assume from your little jolly trips that you know better than the Perth and Mel guys in the middle of the action. The ones in the firing line have decided no o/t or higher duties to get the licence coverage up the sh!t so planes don't fly.

The last thing we need is some sc@b coming in thinking they can justify their a$$ licking by saying they will make the operation more expensive. The lames in Per Mel are not going that way so f off and leave us alone. M is hiding the expenses anyway.

[mahatmacoat]

I expected better from you mendaero. The guys in Perth who are in the firing line and now Melbourne have decided on a course of action and that is to not work overtime so the 8 hour rosters fall apart when aircraft aren't covered. Individuals from Sydney or wherever else are flying here on overtime in a move that completely negates the effect of what the locals are doing. Don't be ignorant about the whole affair or try and blame the union.

We all know that the alaea can't put an official ban on or tell their members not to travel so what do you expect when you call them. I was asked to go to Pert 3 months ago and rang the asn and got told the following -

"I can't tell you not to go but read the notice we put out. If you do go get your own smoko room because the Perth staff won't eat with you"

The message doesn't get any clearer than that and again if you think you know better than the MIT lames who have voted unanimously for ot bans make sure you wear someone elses name tag when you get here.

[mahatmacoat]

And just one other thing.

Sydney have never supported Melbourne for transit work on Atlas its just that management forgot to roster staff on for the times it has been coming in. Sydney traditionally supporting outstations is no excuse for $cabs.

[The Mr Fixit]

OMFG Mendaero are you as spineless as you sound, you want the union to give you guidance for unofficial action and secondary boycotts the eighties are two decades ago.:confused:

LET YOUR CONSCIENCE BE YOUR GUIDE :eek:

Coming into to someone else's backyard like it's your own, you and Chem Ali are @-holes, I hope the tables turn on YOU when the Sydney Precinct review comes out :E

[company_spy]

All ALAEA members should make themselves familiar with the latest notice re: MEL. which can be viewed on the assn. web site.

[mahatmacoat]

Thanks to the union for the notice i think it spells it out in no uncertain terms that Mel is a no go zone. Also like to thank the 20 or so lames today who have said no after the notice come out and to explain further -

Qf 30 from London is off schedule landing 0030 departs 0230. The new roster has staff all finishing at 0130 and nobody to depart the aircraft. God help any d!ckh who ignores the asn notice.

[Torqueman]

Well I don't think the notice will make much difference to the forstaff contractors who would go anyway. They continue to work for an employer who treats the with disdain. They are represented by a union who treats them as lepers. When they work with Qantas staff they are treated with contempt. :ugh:

So the notice said in essence that if they go up they would feel isolated.

Funny.... I'm sure they'll feel right at home. :}

You guys better start working on building the relationship with them. They work for the same company as you. It might be in your future interest to have them on side. At the minute they have nothing to lose. The unions have failed to represent them. The company can pretty much tell them where to go and they have to go. The union's lack of representation down there has given forstaff and Qantas management a free run down there.

When it happens. Which I hope it doesn't. Don't blame them. They don't have a choice. Blame the union for knee capping them. :mad:

[chemical alli]

have a rite old whinge you legacy individual.previous posts you stated that the union cant put out an official letter & now they have ! exactly what is it mit wants ,you whinge about redundancies and get them ,you whinge about licence training and get it , the so called scabs you refer to rang the association and were told of no problem.but hey now a official notice is put out exactly how many of these so called scabs have travelled to mit ? so far i dont see the alaea printed on my pay slip,only in the deduction column,
please explain how you can realistically put the isues in per and mit on equal level,as you dont even have the support of your domestic brothers.

[mahatmacoat]

Please explain? Lets compare

------------------------------------------Per----------- MIT------

Rejected company proposed roster?------- yes----------- yes------
Forced to 8 hour roster?-------------------yes-----------yes------
Working overtime?-------------------------no------------no-------
Sc@bs from Syd saving M's @rse----------yes-----------yes-------
Locals on higher duties---------------------no------------no-------
Support from Mel Domestic?-------------- none---------- none-----
Support from any other section?----------none-----------none-----
Can union put official ban on?------------illegal-----------illegal----
Do they follow real footy?-----------------yes------------yes------
DMMs kept on extended roster?-----------yes------------yes------


Mmmm... I think we may be able to put the issues on an equal level there are some similarities. Every time one person comes down they save M's bacon from another hiding. Now Ali you can keep crawling up his hole but remember when you are up there and he gets the @ss you will fall out and the smell that comes with it doesn't wash off.

Now how is it you say that these travellers rang the Asn and got told there was no problem? In the same line you say that the Asn have put out a notice (which deters people from heading to Mel). So why would they send out a different msg on the phine than their notice? Nobody rang the asn office before the notice come out but just in case the msg isn't clear enough. Don't come down.

[Clipped]

Chemical

so far i dont see the alaea printed on my pay slip,only in the deduction column

You are of course right.

However, look on the left side of your payslip and you will see overtime, shift penalties, license payments, leave premiums and etc etc. All negotiated on your behalf by YOUR Ass'n. Take a breather, a liitle more time to ponder what is really happening in our workplace.

The term 'legacy' has been negatively exploited by management. Surely it is this legacy that allows you to comfortably go about your work, one that has developed a high standard of maintenance in our people - that sets us apart from our regional neighbours.

[PitPin]

Mamhatmarhandbag
Just a little reminder, the one choice that MIT had that PER didn't was to stay on the 9.5 hr shift and be aligned with a domestic crew forming a base and tarmac work force.
Why did they vote it down ?
Scared of working at the hangar !
Scared of the losing the flexiblity of the individual line roster if you know what i mean !
OR Because MDT weren't suffering enough pain !

Present all the facts :ugh:

[mahatmacoat]

You haven't presented facts, they are just some distorted opinions as why the MIT lames may have voted a particular way. There are plenty of reasons but the one fact you did raise may not even be relevant.

The MIT vote was to stay on their existing shift lenghth (9.5) but on a different pattern.

The Perth vote was to stay on the same pattern (4 on 4 off) but on a different length shift (10.9).

I may not have mentioned that the toilets in Perth don't cater for the existing staff but how far do I need to take it? End of the day both depts forced to a roster they don't want to work so the airline can say look at them. If you don't accept the plate of sh!t we serve you then you'll go to an 8 hour shift also. Help them to throw the plate back in M's face, don't stand behind him because he doesn't give a damn about you.

[PitPin]

Yes your correct different pattern but MIT would have kept their shift and Mel would have been one united force (larger in numbers ) instead of the situation you have have now where MDT don't feel the least bit sorry for MIT . MDT want all the work and training they can get from MIT ! ;)

[chemical alli]

so mahtma you must be a union official to be able to post that no one from syd rang the assoc .i think you will find that all the so called scabs have rung and were looking for some direction and recieved very little until the notice arrived.you will find that your northern cousins support you even if your domestic brothers dont.i support the effort but if you want to start naming and shaming do it with some factual information.or just put another wedge in the great divide

[mahatmacoat]

Not an official or a goose but we got SP come from our section so we know what has been going on in the union. Some sc@bs have come down from Syd but overall the support has been good. Have heard that 70 lames said no to come down the other night which is a sign that the lames knwo that we need to stick together. The problem is that 3 of our own have done the dirty on us. Two of them are Tasmanians not that that is relevant but what goes around comes around.

I am looking forward to next Friday's sick out.

[Nepotisim]

Looks like the ALAEA has pulled its original letter and that now "Travelling Engineers" are able to visit your fine station.
I hope now the ALAEA will support their members unlike the last threat.
I am not sure how I felt, being a fully paid member, being told that I would not receive support under certain situations.
N

[FCMC]

Guys, I understand your concern but this is the best Association we have had in years. I would happily pay them a bonus for all there great work to keep the momentum!! The amount of notices and revving up would not have happened years ago. SP is the man and has it all under control.Let the company bring the travelers. The expense may come out of the secret budget but that budget is not endless. BELIEVE ME!!! It may take some time but beancounters do watch and add it up.We all must stick together.Its the only way. There will always be S*&BS but fortunately a few percent and they appear very quickly.
Hang in there, its not forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Clipped]

FCMC

Spot on ... there is a limit on the expense account and questions will be asked down the track. Solidarity, although a cliche, is the best tactic IMHO. The Ass'n has led cautiously, considering the constraints, this caring gov't has placed on union activity.

Wear them down, do your job correctly ... they have enough policies and procedures in place to stifle any operation.

Remain united ... cannot be over emphasised.

Fleet reliability is already suffering, and mgmt's policies have no long term solutions for this, less LAMEs - well go figure .... Operations will ask questions about their planes and someone in QE will need to come up with answers.

[acslame]

50 syd lames were asked to go to MIT and they all
declined!!!!
Its just a shame that a MIT DMM couldn't give the same
level of support as shown by the syd brothers
Keep it up fellas
Remember
the only thing these people understand is delays.
Don't worry about the few who sc*b it.
They can't be there all the time.
The delays will come and M will have to explain to
his keepers

To the people who are thinking of going to tulla to "help"
Think carefully about it . Your names will become mud and
you will go down with the likes of mini me, borat, and the
fly in DMM's who went to perth .People have long memories
and this is a small industry.
The best form of support you can give is to stay at home and
do your jobs per the PPM

The most important thing now is to support each other
Remember QF management are liars!!!
And no matter where you work one day they will
come gunning for you

And to SP thanks for all you did for us in per.

[Bolty McBolt]

mahatmacoat
Seeing as you seem to be the only one from MEL posting on the MIT subject.
Care to fill us in with some details because from an interested observer of this roster issue I would have to side with Chemical and Pitpin.
The whole MEL issue seems to revolve around the winging whining and bitching the MIT and MDT have been doing for over a dozen years, the old red team blue team BS. I personally have done postings at both terminals, enjoyed working with all the guys very much. The constant bitch about what’s going on over the other side of the tarmac and the conspiracy theories running rife was a constant source of amusement.
I have read the ALAEA notices regarding the ballots but I am non the wiser on the issue.
I was well aware of what was going on in PER and I fail to see the similarities!

So what is the beef this time?
Were MIT offered a 9.5 hour roster that ruled out their free issue over time? Did MIT not wish to cross the tarmac for fear of working a 12 hour night shift?
I just hope SP is working the benefit of all of us. Not just picking a fight in the name of self interest.. (Pick your battles)
But a union official would never do that would they ? :yuk::yuk:
Dons flack jacket....

[The masked goatrider]

Looks like the ALAEA has pulled its original letter and that now "Travelling Engineers" are able to visit your fine station.
I hope now the ALAEA will support their members unlike the last threat.
I am not sure how I felt, being a fully paid member, being told that I would not receive support under certain situations.


Original letter has been pulled and travellers ok to go but read it closely. The traveller needs someone to escort them all of the time. This defeats the purpose of sending someone down when they are short staffed.

So the ALAEA has told you that support will not be there if you don't follow their notices gee what a revelation. What happens if you don't follow the rules at Qantas? your local club? the roads? your sport?

Go read some ALAEA notices from the prior crowd. They openly threatened members with disciplinary action under the rules if they didn't follow directives or spoke out against the leaders. Did they do it? Yes they used your dollars to sue a member for $750,000 for defamation.

Now they say don't go to Melbourne unless you have been trained because it would be unsafe to do so. If you do you won't be covered. Get real N we all no the reason why the ALAEA don't want members there. They can't place an official ban on travellers who are undermining the bargaining position after an unfair roster was put in place. The travellers are covering times that the roster does not whilst the LAMEs are trying to prove that the new roster doesn't work. The travellers are saving management embarrasment via delays.

The ALAEA has done everything it can to support the LAMEs in Melbourne without breaking the law. Whilst members in Melbourne are losing $200 per week and can't feed their god damn families you are having a sook about the union saying don't go to Melbourne and help Qantas screw other LAMEs. Please union don't threaten me, I don't care if they are losing money I just want Kevin to know that I love Qantas I need to be supported by the union to help get myself a promotion. Get with the program N the rat will be coming for you next and you will appreciate it when the union backs you.

[The masked goatrider]

BM - just a couple of answers that I know of.

The biggest reason the MIT LAMEs voted no was the move from a single line roster back to crews. They haven't worked crews since the eighties and love it because it breaks down the hierarchy system that exists in most other depts.

SP isn't picking battles and he actually encouraged all to vote yes for the roster. It is the LAMEs themselves that wanted this battle and most of them couldn't give a rats about being on an 8 hour roster unlike Perth.

[Bolty McBolt]

The biggest reason the MIT LAMEs voted no was the move from a single line roster back to crews. They haven't worked crews since the eighties and love it because it breaks down the hierarchy system that exists in most other depts.
Ok
So as many of us suspected the issue has nothing to do with rosters, therefore no comparison to PER. The association/members have an agreement on extended hour shifts but not on how we manage our day.
Its Ms train set and can run it as inefficiently as he likes. You can go to print say you disagree with new system in place and wait till it crashes and get to say "I told you so" ! M is not using the greatest resource he has and that’s his experienced staff on the floor whom know how make rosters work and maintain aircraft.
M is only listening to the idiots in the Lighthouse team who have no experience. This is something everyone else within the QF engineering group are going thru and we are all looking forward to the day when we all say "I told you so!"
This brings us back to MIT whom are using the only significant bargaining tool we have to fight a cause which is something the MIT don't like.
Lets throw the baby out with bath water.
I know MIT is a bunch very experience codgers whom are credited for doing much work on the ageing 744 fleet outside a checks etc and can work unsupervised but unfortunately its not for us to decide our working structure or hierarchy.
If this is the only reason MIT is spoiling for a fight I suspect support will wane as the majority work in crews not single line.
Are there any better arguements out there??? :D

Dons flack jacket climbs into fox hole

[mahatmacoat]

The single line roster/crew roster argument is all about rosters what else is it. Our single line roster allows us to manage our lifestyle in a way that you cant when working on a crew. It allows us to shift change and overcomes the "suck up to the boss" mentality that you see elsewhere. It is our roster that we are fighting for and M is punishing us because we don't want his roster. Same as Perth. Some like their roster because it gives you z days, some because you get 4 off, some cause you dont work nights, some because you do. These are all reasons some people like their rosters. We like ours because we got no crews. This crap about it being M's train set so he can do what he wants is wrong. Can he pay you less because its his train set? Can he ignore CASA regs because it is his train set? Can he tell you that you can't take lunch because it is his train set? Can he force you on to an unfair extended roster because it is his train set? Can he send untrained staff on to a tarmac against all local and previous practices because it is his train set? If you don't speak up I can tell you now that something will go wrong and it won't be M's fault the blame will get laid on one of us. If we stand up now and let people know that the train is about to crash because some fat headed uni educated Moron is ignoring warnings about safety, rosters that don't work and lack of training then he goes before we do.

[acslame]

M is a goose !
(sorry, just felt like saying that . carry on)

[chemical alli]

so can somebody enlighten me ? can i or cant i go scab ?


two in a fox hole cosy (incoming)

[Bumpfoh]

Granted your point around single line rosters and making it work for you, however I disagree with you view on perceived matey's club in a crew situation versus the previous MIT arrangement.

The leading hands (SL 2's) at MIT have an enormous amount of pull over the guys on the floor and most of them will do anything possible to protect their own little "protected world" of training, postings and the like.


Also where is the equity in people abusing shift swapping to the point if you analysed the figures certain individuals were being overpaid averaging penalties because they NEVER did their rostered 0400 starts and created licence coverage gaps by continually shift swapping and undoing all the planning that had been put into place by the planners.
Big deal you say but how about the guys who do the right thing and stick to their roster as much as posible and miss out on taking leave because of the actions of the greedy, noisy minority.

I'm not so sure the MDT brothers have not supported you, witness the aforementioned 29 delayed departure. Numerous appropriately licensed individuals were approacched and all declined. The acting DMM who did the s#@b job should not be used as a general representation of MDT. Bear in mind the current industrial climate we work in.

I wish you all the best in your endevours to reach a palatable outcome but don't dig your own grave.:ok:

Also ducking for cover!:ouch:

[mahatmacoat]

B - We don't even deserve the help of Domestic when a number of our guys worked ot when all of Domestic was out for 6 months. Not most of us but not one of our guys should have worked and we appreciate the support we got from you the other night :ok:


Ali - Come down mate we'd love to see you. ALAEA says it is ok so no problem with it. Remember you need an escort at all times. One scab, one escort, two scabs, two escorts. Kind of defeats the purpose I think but will make the operation more expensive. Under the new system you won't even be called a scab just helping us blow M's budget and bonus. :E

[chemical alli]

soory mahtma too busy this month with doctors appointments, beers before ten,and wifey with the painters and dockers,plus a little too cold for a cold blooded northernor.enjoy the tirade but as others have posted,beware the battles you pick and the holes we dig.i agree that the new exec has served well so far and have been diligent with replies and info,just hope that big heads they dont get and believe they can win all.



forward march:oh:

[Clipped]

Chemical

just hope that big heads they dont get and believe they can win all

Hopefully our Executive don't go into battle with such a defeatist attitude.

I also say 'forward march'.

[mahatmacoat]

The best thing the Asn have done here is getting us all in the same boat rowing the same direction and I have not seen any signs of them rolling over.

forward march and don't look back!

[chemical alli]

clipped
its not a defeatist attitude,just pick the battles you can win and walk on the ones you cant.why waste members money on storm in tea cup disputes when for so long everyone has sold out,due to poor representation.

wars have been won and lost by not knowing when to retreat and regroup

at least this exec is asking for direction from the members instead of just making decisions on our behalf

[dodger of maggots]

All Murray wants is Base Maintenance set up in Melbourne, and the Terminal group operating out of Charlie finger - T1, the middle finger down here.

Makes sense doesn't it????

How can anyone argue with that?????

Qantas doesn't want 8 hour shift for anyone - least of all terminal engineers, but management has been forced into a corner, They can't be seen to have lost the argument - therefore the 8 Hour shift.

Tony has said many times that a 9.5 hr shift is the best shift time for Terminal work.....

The real fight will come when two thirds of Domestic Melbourne are sent to the Hangars permanently on a Night weighted Base Maintenance shift.

Don't think it won't happen,

Domestic Melbourne engineers have done well for the last 15 odd years slinging **** over the fence to their international brothers,

Where will they throw it when we are gone?????

How will they come up smelling like roses when they have to live in their own sh?t?????

I guess there will be the same old people crawling into the managers office offering to sit under his desk and perform their ususal tricks.....

And on that matter, how about the recent promotions...could you have chosen a more "Yes" man group of people???

Just don't mention personal interaction skills, time in job, attitude, technical skill, managerial skill or how about this....suitability??????

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The fight at the moment is really a losing battle. We are fractured, have very little solidarity, within and without the department.

We are going to lose it because of the attrition happening with redundancies and Scabs doing higher duties and overtime.

Make no mistake, International is in the last convulsions before death and obscurity.

The meeting last week was a fraud, railroaded to let the people that are "hurting" do the O.T.

although....what sort of hurting could it be???? we get almost the same shift penalties as on the 9.5?????

Maybe they're living beyond their means.....

Short sighted F#ckwits.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The 9.5 hour shift we worked was the most flexible shift i have ever worked, for the company's sake and also for the workers,

Multiple start times matched to aircraft movements, callins and staybacks to cover late or early aircraft.
Shiftswaps, give and take with management and workers, wage averaging, 3 days off per week.

It was a panacea for Qantas and Employees alike.

Bring on the redundancies.


Comments anyone?

[REALITY]

let's face the facts:

1. MIT will not exist inside of 6 months

2. Base Maintenance will be alive and well

3. Lameless tarmac will be here also

4. Lame/ame ratio increased

The newly appointed 'yes' men will make sure of it. Some of those have been s*abs in recent disputes. Coincidence? I doubt it?

Good luck to all as we flat spin out of control.

What future is there? Perhaps John Holland has the answers.

I just hope the weak amongst us don't trade off our redundancy entitlements for a measly increase before we get the bullet.:=