View Full Version : Virgin Pilot's EBA

Prop's ????
25th Jun 2007, 02:51
The vote is in,

53% YES

Bolty McBolt
25th Jun 2007, 03:20
If memory serves, the first offer was voted down with a large majority NO vote.
After all these months I think many in the industry very interested to learn what was gained?

25th Jun 2007, 04:12
Half and half almost. Should make for some interesting conversations on the flight deck.

25th Jun 2007, 06:17
I wonder who voted yes????? Almost half.

Lets break it down, the %13 that voted yes last time plus %40 F/o's that are looking for that short term goal of a command. Sound about right???

Well, looks like Virgin will for ever be employing now. They will not keep crew with that deal. Troubled times ahead for pilot retention, and those yes voters will get a command even quicker which is all well and good until they realise what it has cost them LONG TERM.

Those who voted "no", can still vote with their feet. Bye bye CAO 48 forever.

*Deletes Virgin off list of company who he wants to work for*

25th Jun 2007, 07:02
Well this result has firmly split the VB pilots more than ever and the DISENGADEGMENT will be there for a long long time.
The pilot group has been bluffed and folded! And for what??
a ONE OFF payment of $8000 (before tax)
For 40 Captains only to 777 commands,
For new fos who think they may get quick commands on the EMB
and for giving future new FOs on the EMB a starting salary of just over $60K.
CAO 48 is gone for ever. Many contractors can now be employed on the 777 (indefinately as well....there is no time frame)
There will be less over nights and hence allowances but guaranteed longer days.. :ugh:
An opportunity lost forever guys and gals.

Manuel Reversion
25th Jun 2007, 07:14
Im lost for words but rest assured in six months there will not be a yes voter to be seen.53% week as :mad::mad:

25th Jun 2007, 07:55
Can some one please enlighten us as to what the pros and cons are of this new EBA, the new pay scheme, the duration and how this differs now to Jetstar?? Will u guys have longer days and less overnights like Jetstar?

Thanks in advance

25th Jun 2007, 08:17
In fairness could be a few also who want/expect to get 777 slots, get 500 hours command and look at the contract world.
Self interest at both ends - and maybe even some in the middle!

Also in fairness praise where due - congratulations to the VB management, dangled JUST enough of a carrot to JUST get over the line so gave away as LITTLE as possible to achieve their best result AND AND AND appear to have locked it up for 5 years in a market that (by a popular opinion of FAR more than 53%) will favour pilots in next 2-5 years. :eek:

No, seriously, quite impresseive, once again congrats to the management. :ok:

Now they can go back to the problem of finding suitable pilots, give them suitable training so the expansion plans do not get tripped up by a bent VB aircraft somewhere in Oz (maybe even O/S?) which might dissuade some punters from using the VB product. :E

Good luck to 'em!

25th Jun 2007, 09:02
Self interest at both ends

Yes self interest above whats best for the long term conditions of the whole pilot core, and when the aspiring pilot gets his command pay check he better enjoy it because he will have earnt it. xx

Watch the exodus.

Under Dog
25th Jun 2007, 09:35
"Watch The Exodus"

Worked for many companies that have changed conditions and the crew have disagreed and the murmerings were "watch every body Leave" .Not to many of the crew did this and management know they won't .
Unfortunately thats aviation where every body looks out for themselves and not as a team.

Regards The Dog

25th Jun 2007, 10:23
Dirty Laundry,

Overall pay rise of between 14% - 20%.


Yes CAO48 is gone to be replaced by fatiuge management. My understanding is that they can still only work you 900 flight hours a year! As for the rest, well time will tell. Hope they don't regret it. The EJ pay has actually increased to close to what the previous 737 pay was. A definite improvement and realistically what the min should be. EJ captain will be on a min of $152.267 pa as of July 2011!

Grey area for newbies re endorsement training, but have left the door open. They'll need to swing it wide if they are to even come close to meeting their crewing requirements!

If they drop the requirement altogether, and my guess is that 's imminent,
then watch out REX and Eastern, Sunstate etc... You are about to be sc#ewed!

25th Jun 2007, 10:29
Krusty,A pay rise of 14 to 20%..dont know where you got those figures from..you are kidding arn't you?

25th Jun 2007, 10:52

900hrs a year under Fatigue Management? There are no set limits, just a fatigue score... this is the biggest industrial change in the industry so far. We got the pay reductions through BYO training, now work harder for the same money.

Greedy companies have effectively sown up a 30% productivity increase, and paid a 10% rise for it... we pilots (at least half of) are really not very good at math. Obviously so few VB pilots have not seen this system in operation.

No more 9+ hrs rest on an overnight... when things run late it will just come out of your rest period. No more bust the 12 hour duty by 2 mins and get the next day off.

We are now effectively truck drivers, might as well go out and get myself some more blue bonds singlets.

Fatigue management = Never manage to get so fatigued.:*

25th Jun 2007, 11:08
Can someone explain what has happened to the overnight policy. Is there a cap now?


25th Jun 2007, 11:38
Oh please!!...stop the bitching!...

you're getting good money, flying good airplanes, and having a great life!

Just don't answer the phone on your day off!

That's not too hard is it?...

after all, you are pilots, and aren't pilots supposed to be a little bit smart?

25th Jun 2007, 11:55
Ok Guys,

Lept before I looked.

Didn't realise the retention bonus was inclusive of the yearly rate!

Problem is it appears that I wasn't the only one!

25th Jun 2007, 11:57
Anyone care to enlighten us on the actual changed with this new EBA? Pros and cons?


25th Jun 2007, 12:09

Clause A1.1.18.1 The maximum flight hours for a pilot will not exceed:

(a) 900 hours in any 365 consecutive days.

I'm not defending this system. Frankly I think it's a crock. There do appear to be some limits though.

25th Jun 2007, 13:47
K34, I am sure the EBA might have a clause or two, but the fatigue management system itself has no set limits - except a fatigue score...

A big win for the company - who said you only get what you pay for :confused:

Trashed Aviator
25th Jun 2007, 14:26
Watch the exodus what a joke there is still nowhere to go in Aus if you leave your country it will be at your own peril.:mad:

25th Jun 2007, 18:35
We have fatigue management at EK and you would not believe what the computer spits out.You will have a bunch of non pilots sipping Latte's entering
data into a fatigue module which wiil decide what is a fatiguing pattern and what is not.It seems you guys had them by the proverbials.Only time will tell.

27th Jun 2007, 11:24
Is this the same FMS that was based on train drivers?

Pearl used it for a couple of years and both the pilot group and management decided to drop it like a you know what.

Even if it is not the same one, may I suggest it is to be treated with care.

Once burnt, twice shy. :ouch:

27th Jun 2007, 13:02
Oh please!!...stop the bitching!...

Hear Hear!

I am sure the EBA might have a clause or two, but the fatigue management system itself has no set limits - except a fatigue score...

wethereyet..On what basis do you make this statement?

Is this the same FMS that was based on train drivers?

If you are interested it is based on a UK CAA publication CAP 371: https://www.auc.org.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=22

Overnights will be reduced to a minimum as they can pax you home with no penalty or cost.

Surely this is a case of you can't please everyone. I am sure there are plenty of pilots with families that would prefer to reduce the number of overnights?

27th Jun 2007, 14:12
Krumlov, I only worked under it for three years. For two separate and quite reputable GA companies

It is a free-for-all... fine when your building exp. Does anyone really think this will bring a net benefit to an already undervalued profession? :ugh:

Yusef Danet
27th Jun 2007, 14:17

Virgin will not be using the dreaded "fatigue management system" that many loathe and distrust. It has drafted a set or work rules based on the British CAP371 and will replace CAO48, providing it is approved by CASA. This satisfies CASA's requirement to have a "fatigue management system" in place but is not remotely related to any PC algorithm based metod you may have encountered in GA.

28th Jun 2007, 02:28
Amos and Krumlov, it's about proportion not bitching. Congrats to the 47% of VB's who understood that much.

Twenty short years ago you could buy a pretty decent shack in Brisvegas for 100K and that was about what an airline skipper earned.

Now you need 7-800K for the roof over your noggin and the earning is south of 200K.

Something's amiss!!!

28th Jun 2007, 22:31
What a pathetic end to a very protracted negotiation.

Once again a pilot group that can't stand together despite EVERYTHING being in their favour. Absolutely pathetic!

29th Jun 2007, 03:13
I am always amused when pilot's talk about sticking together in Industrial negotiations because one thing that history has shown is that they almost never do ( in this country anyway). Any Eba vote is always about what the individual thinks, not the self appointed generals in the ranks. What is suitable for one person is unacceptable for another and to denigrate them for that really shows some interesting character traits. Any management is trying to get the numbers right to get the YES vote they need. It shows that they are not paying too much on a pure economic point of view. The first vote going down in flames showed that they were well short and they reacted. Even if you offered Cathay A scale wages you wouldn't please everyone. This Eba Vote is over so get on with your life.

1st Jul 2007, 03:34
coaldemon, there are some of us who don't believe in the "ME, NOW!" of modern society.

Those of us who can see that only through sticking together strongly against the wealthy and greedy can a net gain be achieved for real people. To denigrate somebody for a short sighted indivualistic approach in industrial relations is a good thing :*. If we all become "ME, NOW" people we are a lesser species than monkies.

1st Jul 2007, 04:14
Welcome to the Jungle ....

dirty deeds
2nd Jul 2007, 12:34
This EBA was not so much about money, it was about life style and the ability for the comany to live up to it's promise's. They have sold this document with so many promises, a few "will endevours" and a deed for the 777 flying that is not worth the piece of paper it's written on and a threat to take away the EMB from the F/O's.

If these promises are not lived up to, and they have a very bad track record with promises, the staff will really become dis-engaged. And the problem with this is no one really wants to leave and no one really will. So the place will self destruct.

I hope the management get this right, the ball is in their court now, and it's up to them to act in good faith and with a changed attitude to how things are done and implemented. For all parties involved, I hope the "will endevours" work. Time will tell.

Managers Perspective
2nd Jul 2007, 13:46
Oh for goodness sakes........... would someone please pass the tissues.

Time to move on.

Or move over.

- MP

Private Patjarr
2nd Jul 2007, 14:31
Can anyone comment on rumours of decreased overnights? Apparently owing to the establishment of more bases?

3rd Jul 2007, 16:00
Pass-A-Frozo: Just imagine if 47% of pilots moved to another airline.

don't have to imagine mate, remember August 1989? 95% left and the companies manged to scrape through somehow. All be it with the Govts help.

wirgin blew
3rd Jul 2007, 22:58
Can anyone comment on rumours of decreased overnights? Apparently owing to the establishment of more bases?

This will take time as the SYD base has just opened up. There are still MEL people o/n in BNE and vice versa so its hard to say exactly how much it will go down by.
Also with the introduction of the E-jet there possibly may be more o/n in other ports as we see more aircraft spend the night in ADL, CBR, etc.
With the CC EBA which will be working off the same rules if voted in, I had heard that it will mean about 50% of the flying would be day trips and the other 50% would be overnights.
So too many variables at this stage and as the new rostering system wont be here for 6 months to early to tell.