Red Arrows

[Mercyman]

Any one know where they were going or where they been was quite surprised when 9 hawks buzzed my whit van on the way home from work they even popped smoke

Quite a nice way to brighten up a rather dull and boring day in work

[Exrigger]

17
Kemble Air Day

17
Falklands Campaign 25th Anniversary Flypast, London
22
Fat Face Night Surf @ Lusty Glaze Beach, Newquay, Cornwall (Display time: 1715)



This is all I can find from the posted programme for June. Does not seem to match, unless they have not updated the site.

[Knight Paladin]

I'd guess they were going to Valley for the Hawk sim, emergencies currency.

[Jaguar Pilot]

They were simply lost....

JP

[BEagle]

You mean someone actually lives in Llandildo? I thought it was just a name on a map put there by the Viet Taff to annoy the English....

There's lovely!

[Mercyman]

Yes there are quite a lot of us ex air force types living in the immediate area of llandeilo. And by the way the reds were flying in a southerly direction

[vmv2]

Heading for St Mawgan after sims and practice display at Valley this morning. Display at a beach near Newquay tomorrow afternoon.

[dionysius]

Got dragged to Cribbs Causeway Mall today by Mrs D and was pleasantly suprised by the sight of the Red Arrows in formation with a Typhoon very low over Filton, then they proceeded to do a few dispay formations...:D

Any idea what the occasion was ?? Heck of a view from the Mall as it is on high ground adjecent to Filtons runway and approach.

[Two's in]

Coincidentally, there is also a 1/5 scale model diorama type display of the Reds in the main Lobby at Cribbs Causeway

-thank you Norman.

[vmv2]

Reds were on their way to Filton to position for a display at Rendcomb this afternoon.

[Navy_Adversary]

Any idea if some of the Sparrows flew a low level 4 ship past the west side of Leicester around 1315 hours today?
I was working and heard fast jets but was not in a position to see what the noise was.
The wife said 4 jets in a V formation heading NE-SW, one had some red on it:eek:
Sorry if it is a bit spotterish but I don't get to hear the Sound of Freedom so much in these cash strapped days for the RAF.
TIA:8

[Mr-AEO]

And what was the point of that? Other than wasting £thousands of my taxes on aviation fuel and support costs?

Flipping time wasters, put some hard points on the red puff jets and send them to war.

[Navy_Adversary]

AEO
Part exchange them for some Warthogs and I might agree with you:eek:

According to tonights Leicester Mercury newspaper it was the Sparrows who flew past Leicester on Wednesday.
A couple of the team are former pupils at Groby Community College and they re-payed the college for their education with a fly-past.

[Mr-AEO]

:DI can just imagine a flight of Shiny Red A10's spewing smoke in Diamond formation at Air Day - priceless. But agreed, they would have a dual use, just needing a quick respray.

[Navy_Adversary]

I missed the Sparrows on Wednesday but not just now:D
9 ship in V formation passed west of Leicester at 0858 on their way to RNAS Yeovilton.
They would have passed over the same college as the other day but I expect the students are still in the snorer.:)

[Navy_Adversary]

I had an even better treat today:D
Whilst rolling the cricket wicket at Newtown Linford I heard a strange noise, surely the roller wasn't about to blow up?
I looked up in my 10 o'clock and saw the sparrows heading north in a beautiful V formation.
They must have been using the 'Old John' folly in Bradgate Park as a turning point as they banked beautifully to starboard to stay clear of EMA zone.:ok:

It doesn't take much to make my day does it?:)

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Navy, sorry to say this but it's left and right these days fella, not port and starboard anymore!

[the_flying_cop]

are the reds still down to 8. was the europhoon painted red to make up the numbers?


seriously, im thinking im gonna have to move, we get no fast jet action over the conurbations of manchester

[Zoom]

Ah, cop, funny you should mention that but I was at Silverstone on Sunday, and the Sparrows did the whole display as an eight-ship. What's up?

Out of interest, that was only the second F1 GP I have been to, the first one being in 1974 when the engines revved more slowly, and the noise of the cars from about 20 yards was absolutely shattering. Made the good old Spey sound positively muted by comparison.

[Talking Radalt]

funny you should mention that but I was at Silverstone on Sunday, and the Sparrows did the whole display as an eight-ship. What's up?

One of them has a busted wrist but apparently was flying in the back of one of the eight this weekend to gauge fitness for RIAT. Been posted elsewhere in more detail and before anyone says anything, no they don't train up stand-by pilots to slot in anywhere in the nine - Too many different moves to remember.

[vmv2]

Fresh from the Reds website:
"Boomer is back
We are delighted to announce that Flight Lieutenant Andrew Keith, known to us all as Boomer, is back flying after successful surgery to his injured left hand.
On Monday he flew to Valley to carry out his refresher and emergency simulator training. This morning he carried out some solo continuation training overhead Scampton before being joined by the Boss for some formation manoeuvring practice. This afternoon he slotted back into the Red 3 position as the Team carried out an In Season Practice over Scampton.
The Boss was content that Boomer was back up to speed and he flew in his normal position as the Reds displayed at Cranwell for the Central Flying School Association Reunion later that same afternoon. Unfortunately, the show at Cranwell had to be curtailed half-way through due to a deluge which decided to deposit itself on that part of Lincolnshire just as the display started.
It was a close run thing but thanks to the skills of the surgeon and Boomer’s own determination to get back in the air as soon as it was safe to do so, we will have nine pilots ready for the big shows at Fairford this weekend."

[vecvechookattack]

I totally understand that if one of the reds is ill then his place cannot be filled by the other guys and that his space goes beggin....but what if Red 1 is crook...is that endex?

[diginagain]

I wonder which of the three on offer is going to be the most believable?





Every-day life in a Yorkshire village it is, then.

[airborne_artist]

From Channel 4:

And with the latest cuts of £5 million to the TA's budget, Julian Brazier MP, himself a former TA member [who amazed everyone in 21 when he got commissioned] and currently co-chair of the cross-party Armed Services Committee, warns Col Stewart the situation is set to only get worse.

[Mr C Hinecap]

So
Oakleys essential for pre-selection then?
There are going to be some juicy soundbites from this show.
*sits back and pays attention*

[Runaway Gun]

Yep - it should be grand.

What are you fishing for exactly? Didn't you get in?

[BOAC]

If he has a 'big brown desk', I guess not.............:)

[Mr C Hinecap]

Nope - just enjoy the hyperbole that goes with such a show. Good flying etc but the commentary is always like a spoken version of Sun articles. I have never personally wanted to fly - doesn't flick my switch.

[Runaway Gun]

Can you issue me some Oakleys then please?

[Mr C Hinecap]

I'm sorry Mr Gun. You appear to have the ego but not the personality to be able to sign out a pair. We could probably get you some of those 'contraceptive spectacles' if you like - got thousands of pairs of those.

Do you want the watch as well - or is that a Breitling you have there?

[Phil_R]

Duffy? Bollard? Kermit?

Seriously?

Phil

[JFZ90]

Was it just me or did we watch 55 mins getting to know the various characters testing to be in the reds (Duffy came across as the most down to earth & deserving of a slot), then find out at the end that none of them got through. Turns out that 2 guys called Baz and Ben or something that we never even saw mentioned in the programme upto that point got through. Eh?

[rudekid]

Doesn't Duffy now have a slot?

As much as I dislike the concept of the Reds thay have picked some great guys this year. IMHO!

[Simmbob]

Seeing as the whole reason for the 'Reds' is as a recruitment tool for the RAF and the TV program can be seen as part of that, I thought it was excellent. :D

If only I was the right age and done good at skool.:uhoh:

[LOMCEVAK]

Yes, Duffy has just joined the team.

[Tombstone]

Along with Kermit I believe?

I could never have worked with Dick P, comes across a complete tool however, I think it will be a very happy team under JH. Top bloke all round.

I also understand that there is talk of a short series about the Reds with BBC involvement.

[Flatus Veteranus]

I thought it was a superlative show and made me hanker to be 50 years younger. All the candidates came over well and The Boss really looked the part - walked the walk (with just the right amount of swagger) and talked the talk without any of the Alan Sugar bull****. As the young lady commentator said, the Reds bat not only for the RAF but for Britain. I am wondering whether to brave the crowds trying to get to Dartmouth regatta. Why the crowds? Boats and things aquatic? No, its the Reds! :ok:

[foxbat68]

http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/teamnews/index.cfm?storyid=6F833DDF-1143-EC82-2E25CC27797DFC5D

Confirmation of newbies.

[luffers79]

The thing that intrigued me about this programme concerned the attractive female presenter.
Considering she finally did a Full Display at the end, there was no mention of any Air Sickness or High "G" loads affecting her. Most unusual??!!. Recently Jeremy Clarkson did something similar in, I think, an F15. Lots of "discomfort"moans & a Sick Bag (naturally enough !!) were evident, I seem to remember. The Weaker Sex - or more editing http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/infopop/icons/icon5.gif

[Runaway Gun]

Nothing special. Girls tougher than Jeremy Clarkson? What a scenario :)

[Flatus Veteranus]

The only trick the RAF has missed is having a girl in the Reds. I am sure it would go down very well with the Mums as well as the "sisterhood". I wonder whether this apparant oversight is due to the selection process. Even if a girl made it to the short list, could she survive the "democratic" final election hurdle, where all prejudices can be safely exercised? Apart from the gender question, what chance would an "ethnic" have; and as for a black dyke, she would have to fly like an angel and be a roaring extrovert with an endless store of rude jokes and a thirst like a brewer's, and play the piano standing on her head.

[BEagle]

Well, no. Because unfortunately no matter how good she was, there would inevitably be silly "Only got in 'cos of the lumpy jumper" comments - and she would invariably be hunted down by the press at every opportunity....

By the way, isn't 'Black Dyke Fen' near Coningsby? Never did learn whether Fen was a person - or a place. Thankfully!!

[F34NZ]

Flatus, if you do know of such a woman she's probably making a killing on the internet. On the other hand, if the RAF could get her into the Reds and thence onto Celebrity Arseswap or something similar, the recruitment potential would be incalculable. But do we want to be defended by an RAF full of noisy ethnic alcoholic lesbian piano players ?

[Letsby Avenue]

Went for Emmerdale personally :}

[FayeDeck]

I have to say as an ex pongo that I thought the programme was excellent. The team members came across with just the right amount of swagger but with a healthy respect for the applicants. It showed both the RAF and RAFAT in an excellent light.

What was the situation with the final selection..........seemed to be different to that reported on the programme??

[SirToppamHat]

I don't have any better idea than anyone else about why the individuals concerned were or were not selected. However, one thing that occurred to me at the time the prog was first shown was how I would feel as a potential member of the team being approached.

Presumably the candidates would have had to agree to being filmed, interviewed etc, and personally, I am not sure I would have wanted to be filmed not getting through ... especially given the way we in the mil tend to load banter onto any mates who appear on the TV - "It's That Serious."

Excellent Families Day by the way chaps, good effort despite the cr@p weather.

STH

[foxbat68]

FayeDeck

It was Sqn Ldr Ben 'Baz' Murphy and Flt Lt Andrew 'Boomer' Keith, as confimred at the end - both we're on the show but neither were interviewed.

That was for the 2007 season and both Duffy and Kermit reapplied succesfully, with each getting one of the 3 slots for next years team.

[Report Line]

Thought the programme showed the RAF in the right light. Professional yet able to let their hair down. All of the blokes came across really well. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Hurrah!

[Tourist]

My wife will be relieved. She couldn't believe that Bollard and Kermit didn't get through first time. "After all", she said, "they certainly came across as arrogant enough tossers".

[Report Line]

Tourist,

'arrogant enough' would infer that your view of Red Arrows pilots is that they all have this personality trait. Please avail us of details of your experience in this matter:}.

(IOT lessons on leadership - 'beware of individuals who use deferred authority' - ie 'the Air Cdre said'! Hmmm deferred auth with CINC Nag Home perhaps:bored:).

Perhaps your wife said 'arrogant enough - tosser'.

[abbotyobs]

she does sound really lovely

[Clockwork Mouse]

RL
For God's sake don't start Tourist off again on an ant-Reds rant. We've been there before.

[FFP]

Can't speak for the NZ guy but Bollard is one of the most down to earth, nicest guy's you could meet. Didn't think he came across as arrogant at all.

[rudekid]

Brilliant- I love the anti-Reds threads....Here we go again!:E

As much as I don't agree with the continued existence of the Red Arrows, Bollard is indeed a very very good lad, as are many of the others on the team. I can count a couple of tosseurs, both already on the team and in the selection process, but that's just my opinion!

Interesting to hear that the Reds were all "Battle hardened Pilots...."

Maybe a statement saying "All the Red Arrows have flown fast jet aircraft in the RAF, some of whom have been on operations and some have only ever been deployed on exercise." would be more accurate!:p

Well really!

[FayeDeck]

So Tourist,

At what stage did you get chopped??:}

[Clockwork Mouse]

Yes, it was an excellent families' day, relaxed, friendly and utterly professional, the hallmarks of the Reds. Good to see that Rachel, the only civilian on the team, now has a red suit too.

[Flatus Veteranus]

F34NZ

I totally agree your first sentence. Concerning your question about the sort of person we want defending us in the RAF, at my age I have long since stopped fussing about gender, colour or sexual preference. As long as someone can "do the business" I am most grateful to them. My old dad told me that the fighter pilots he shared an airfield when he was flying RE8s in WWI were mostly pi$$ed out of their minds when they flew. And I wonder how many B o B pilots would have passed a breathalyser? Of course in this age of multi-million pound aircraft the culture has had to change, and the heavy drinking seemed to have faded out with the first generation jets. But I am not sure the RAF is richer for the lack of eccentrics and mavericks. Anyway, I suppose the Reds are more about PR than "Defence".

Do I detect an "ethnic" connection in your monica?

[globemaster3]

Will the Red Arrows switch to the Hawk T2 after the RAF have completed the order with Bae Systems or will they stick with T1s,ive been wondering about this for a while and i thought someone would know:ugh:

[TOPBUNKER]

Maybe they should switch to Typhoons, then at least nine of them would have a useful role!

... and it could entertain the Bear crews halfway through what must be a fairly dull day out!

By the way, I wonder if any Russian military members have ever been witnessed on Prune?

Perhaps our current democratic government/MoD have taken a leaf out of the Soviet book with the recent gagging order.

[globemaster3]

Hey,I wonder if the Reds ever came on Pprune:}

[SirToppamHat]

Ugly looking thing:

Hawk T2 (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1246445&size=L&width=1024&height=695&sok=JURER%20%20%28nvepensg_trarevp%20%3D%20%27ONR%20Flfgrzf% 20Unjx%27%29%20%20BEQRE%20OL%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=3)

Looks like it's been built by Geppetto.

STH

[TOPBUNKER]

Perhaps the sticky-out bit at the front is a golf bag pannier - to save on the cost of replacing canopies!?

Oops sorry, was that a military secret... must go, doorbell ringing!

[Flatus Veteranus]

No, its just a T1 with a hard on

[Megaton]

I believe they'll carry on using T Mk 1s for quite some while but will probably be replacing the original jets with Fuselage Replacement Programme aircraft from Valley.

[f4aviation]

Soon be lots of second-hand Tucanos...:uhoh:

[Rakshasa]

Ugly looking thing:

Hawk T2

Looks like it's been built by Geppetto.

STH

Maybe it's BAe's unofficial tribute to Blair's years in office? :}

[India Four Two]

Ugly looking thing:

Hawk T2 (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1246445&size=L&width=1024&height=695&sok=JURER%20%20%28nvepensg_trarevp%20%3D%20%27ONR%20Flfgrzf% 20Unjx%27%29%20%20BEQRE%20OL%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=3)

Looks like it's been built by Geppetto.


Never mind the ugly T2. What's the "cabriolet cab" in the background?

[mlc]

Martin Bakers Meteor!

[dave_perry]

Globemaster, speaking to the Reds ENGO. They won't be getting them any time soon...but i assume they will at some point in the future.

[Focks 2]

Maybe they should switch to Typhoons, then at least nine of them would have a useful role!
'Red' Typhoon (http://s178.photobucket.com/albums/w251/stevel_03/Valley_06/?action=view&current=_MG_5054_2452.jpg) (click image to make bigger). :ok:

[airborne_artist]

Any idea who is the beneficiary of the Reds display at 51 30' 08"N, 001 09' 04"W at 1330 on Thurs 6th?

Might wander down with my lunchtime sarnies. I assume just because it's private doesn't mean I can't look as well :E

[Jackonicko]

Looks like a farm, AA. Why not do a recce today and report back?

I may join you.....

[Archimedes]

I suspect that the event may be the charity clay pigeon shoot at the Royal Berkshire Shooting School, held in support of Great Ormond Street Hospital.

http://www.gosh.org/events/claypigeon_shoot/details.html#details

The Reds have displayed there before for the same event.

[airborne_artist]

Good call Archimedes - JN check yr PMs.

[622]

I hope nobody shouts 'pull' mid way through the display !;)

[Wycombe]

I'm not to far away, so may take advantage of a "working at home" day tomorrow to go for a look :ok:

When I first saw this, I wondered if it was at Pangbourne College, but that theory has been disproved above.

[cessnapete]

I fly off a private strip at Pangbourne. Have just telephoned Wycombe Airpark, Blackbushe,White Waltham, and Farnborough Tower. None were aware of the Reds TRA and Notam for above Display. Not many people seem to check Notams, no wonder so many Display area infringments this year.
In their defence I suppose one would not expect a Red Arrows Display in the middle of an agricultural area, as this private Display is.

[airborne_artist]

I read it on http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/2007restrictions.pdf - and was curious as I live <5 miles away, so found out more. It was first on that page about a month ago, though I think it may have been updated since. I didn't find the times until I saw them on the Reds' page.

[harrogate]

NOTAM schMOTAM.

If you can't see 9 bright red planes trailing bright coloured smoke from 3 miles away, you shouldn't be flying a plane anyway... :}

[beardy]

Just curious, but what benefit will the RAF will accrue from a display at this particular private event? It can't be exposure nor publicity, is it pecuniary or personal?

[Archimedes]

The Reds have been long-standing supporters of Great Ormond Street hospital.

Also, people do like to see the Red Arrows; add this to the package and it might convince more donors to go.

Those who attend will probably leave with a slightly warmer and fuzzier feeling about the RAF because the Red Arrows bothered to turn up.

And imagine the publicity if the team refused or were prevented from appearing because a bean-counter said 'no'.

Admittedly, there is personal and pecuniary gain - the latter for Great Ormond Street, the former for the sick children who just might, even if the link is indirectbe cured/enjoy a better quality of life thanks to the money raised.

Personally, I'd rather see the team support this sort of thing than be expected to turn up at taxpayers' expense to give Premiership football clubs which spend money like water the thrill of a cup final flypast...

[beardy]

Well that's ok then.
I am glad that my taxes are being spent wisely. Don't get me wrong, I am in favour of display teams and the Red Arrows are in my opinion one of the finest teams in the world. But, I don't want to see their allocation of defence spending being used on displays on the fringes of their remit. Of course if the full costs are being covered by the organisers of the private event that is a different story since I, as a taxpayer, would not be funding a charity collection. I would prefer to select my own charity myself (as I do) and would prefer HMG to properly finance hospitals.

[cliver029]

Just seen them heading north east over the M4 A34 Junction

[otisdog]

For those who were questioning the benefit of the Reds doing the private event today, they helped raise £73k for charity - a decent proportion of this was purely from items they themselves auctioned. All their costs were covered by the event organiser (Beardy!) and their personal appearance was greatly received (bigbluecar!) Perhaps not the traditional PR the RAF benefits from but a benefit none the less, in my opinion.:D

[beardy]

I am pleased that the event raised so much and that the reds generously donated towards it. Moreover I am pleased that the organisers covered the cost of the airframes, fuel, salaries allowances as well as the incidental expenses. I hope Des Browne uses this as justification to continue funding display teams, after all it saves £73k from the health budget.

[bowly]

Nice use of the word 'moreover'. You have a splendid career ahead of you! More use of the words 'stovepipe', 'underpin' and 'overarch' next please.

[beardy]

I have an overarching concern that underpinning the definition of career is the concept of bowling down hill out of control.
Couldn't manage stovepipe, must try harder.

[TEEEJ]

Not all of the Reds came through the pass.I wish!

XX253 - 17 Sep 07 - Cad Pass

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0067REDS.jpg

XX266 - 17 Sep 07 - Cad Pass

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0078REDS.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0081REDS.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0082REDS.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0095REDS.jpg

[Fake Sealion]

Delightful pictures. These must have been taken at a favourite spot for such images.....do you have to wait around for hours to capture them!!

[Big Sand]

Teeej
Really super pics mate! Thanks for posting them!

Regards,


Sand

[Shaft109]

Are the lads in the back the engineers (the Blues)?

[Gnd]

or a famil ride for the Blue Eagles??

[TEEEJ]

Thanks for the comments!

Delightful pictures. These must have been taken at a favourite spot for such images.....do you have to wait around for hours to capture them!!

Just up the road from Cader Idris. It is known as the 'fence-line' by aircrew and low-fly photographers and is one of a number of photographic spots. Yes sometimes a very long wait. The frustraiting part is watching fast jets coming out of adjacent passes and not turning into the one that you have chosen. All part of the fun though as you never know what is going to come around the corner!

The guys and girls in the RAF Valley Hawks are great though. They provide a good practice source for low-fly snappers, especially those starting out, with some great flying skills.

Are the lads in the back the engineers (the Blues)?

Yes. A link about them here

http://www.deltaweb.co.uk/reds/engineer.html

Some Hawks from this month.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0729HAWK.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0186HAWK.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0748HAWK.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0618HAWK.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0068HAWK.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0689HAWK.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0588HAWK.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0171HAWK.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h261/TOMMYJO/DSC_0628HAWK.jpg

[dagowly]

awesome pics Teej. What camera are you using? they're very crisp pics for a moving object

[maxdrypower]

That must have been an instructor in the back waving who knew you would be there , fantastic pics

[TEEEJ]

awesome pics Teej. What camera are you using? they're very crisp pics for a moving object

Thanks. I've been doing airshow photography for a couple of years. It's only since I've retired from the RAF this year that I've taken up snapping the low-fly routes.

All those images were taken with a Nikon D2X fitted with a Nikon Nikkor 300mm f/2.8. Perfecting and practising a good camera panning technique is also useful in achieving results.

[TEEEJ]

That must have been an instructor in the back waving who knew you would be there , fantastic pics

Thanks. Those photographic spots are very well known to aircrew. Weather permitting Mon-Fri there is probably a snapper(s) somewhere on that point and several others. The waiving images were taken at the Bwlch which has three main photographic levels. Some of the guys/girls wear reflective vests so as to be noticeable to the aircrew. Sometimes you'll get 'two-fingers' to denote that they will be coming back round for a second pass.

[Runaway Gun]

Ahh, the two fingers denoting another pass.... thanks !!

I'll have to remember that excuse next time I'm upset at somebody :)

[Al R]

Thanks Teeej, you've answered some questions I've always wanted to ask.. I might just go there.. I have recently bought a Canon 400D and am looking to make the change from shooting cars to aircraft. Are there any good b&b/digs?

On another general geeky note.. are the Red Arrows g'crew blue denims certifiable to fly fast jet in?

[vmv2]

Red Arrows groundcrew flying coveralls are made to the same specs as the pilots' red suits otherwise they would not be cleared for flight in a fast jet.

[Another St Ivian]

What's the hole in the top of the fuselage for, in line with the trailing edge of the wings?

Cheers,
ASI

[TEEEJ]

Thanks Teeej, you've answered some questions I've always wanted to ask.. I might just go there.. I have recently bought a Canon 400D and am looking to make the change from shooting cars to aircraft. Are there any good b&b/digs?

I've sent you a PM.

[TEEEJ]

What's the hole in the top of the fuselage for, in line with the trailing edge of the wings?

I think it might have something to do with the auxiliary power unit. Is it the vent/exhaust?

[Rakshasa]

Yep, starter exhaust.

[BEagle]

When I did the Flying Supervisors' Course, they made a big issue of the number of accidents/incidents when pilots were 'showing off' to the camera.

So perhaps it's best not to advertise your presence by wearing a road-digger's yellow coat or whatever - just in case some fun detector should say "Hmm, don't like the idea of the chaps posing for snappers - someone might go a little too low or do something silly. Best we stop this sort of thing....."

I would suggest you just lurk in the weeds with your cameras - and don't tell people when you're there.

Excellent photos, by the way!

[TEEEJ]

Thanks! Points noted BEagle. I personally don't wear any high viz, but some of the guys also do it for safety reasons. Sometimes you can be the only person on that whole mountainside and some of the locations are pretty remote. The last thing they want is to go rolling off a crag, hit their head go unconscious, and not get found quickly after they go overdue. I would certainly advocate that if there is a group of people on the hillside then they shouldn't use them.

[slotter68]

Was browsing websites about Red Arrows aircrew and am aware of the 3 year tour. Looked at 1990 and saw a Flt/Lt Paul Rogers who completed 1 year (according to the stats). What happened to him and why did he only do 1 year, just curious....

Thanks

[Clockwork Mouse]

What do people think of the new paint scheme, which can be seen on the RAF website? To quote Jas Hawker:

“We needed to keep a careful balance between making our famous aircraft unrecognisable and reminding people that we are proud to represent the Royal Air Force. This is especially important when many Royal Air Force personnel are away from home, serving overseas in front line operations such as Afghanistan and Iraq. We are a visible way of reminding people of our colleagues’ hard work and professionalism in the line of duty. The change to our aircraft paint scheme will help us to do this more effectively.”

I think it looks too busy. Preferred the old one.

[Gainesy]

That mirror writing on top of the wing is pretty clever though...

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

What's the difference?

[Roland Pulfrew]

What's the difference?

The big ROYAL AIR FORCE written along the side of the fuselage?!?!

Is it just me or does anyone else hate the stupid slope on the As and Y? So corporate, so naff!:ugh:

[Tiger_mate]

They did this on the Gnat, albeit under the forward fuselage. IMHO it looks naff:
http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/F6388949_1143_EC82_2EF823C192BE7C5D.jpg
If any change was needed at all, I would have prefered the royal blue to extend below the white go-faster stripe full length.
The Gnat version:
http://www.militaryairshows.co.uk/new/gnat/img_1059exp6.jpg
What goes around etc etc obviously somebody was due promotion!!

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

I thought the Gnat went out years ago.

[Brain Potter]

Fantastic bit of politicking by Red One there.
To make a connection between "Red Arrows" and "Operational Theatres" via paint schemes and the corporate logo deserves an AFC all by itself. :yuk:

[Jackonicko]

It looked good on the Gnat, whereas this abomination looks horrible, and the silly font on the As and Ys looks silly.

[High_lander]

Bloody corporate logo.

I do find the 'Y' and 'A' slope rather annoying.

[Op_Twenty]

True... very politically correct!

[Tiger_mate]

I will so laugh if somebody at an airshow changes the 'O' of Force to an 'A'

Priceless

Anybody a 'Photoshop' geek?

[OilCan]

the new version probably cost a mint in 'consultancy' fees....

the old Gnat version was done on a fag packet by station painters.:}

[November4]

http://www.ukmams.co.uk/red.jpg

Sure other will make a better job but...

and not a geek will have you know!! :=

[cokecan]

i went to cadets with Jas Hawker....

i'll get my coat.

[Al R]

With the most sincere and greatest of respect to Red 1, he should stick to being one of the trickest pilots we've got. Instead of presenting us with this abomination that looks like it was rustled up in a local primary school competition, we should spend time sponging some free advice from the best brand consultants we've got, to go with one of the UKs best brands.

For a moment, forget the virtues of continuity and tradition and precedent, and all that guff. For so many commercial and marketing reasons, that new scheme is appalling. Why on earth has an established brand seen fit to start amplifying on what it is, let alone what it stands for, after 40 years of exposure? Why on earth should a Red Arrow feel the need to display his levels of pride too? If the public doesn't know by now then this ISN'T the way to go about telling those who need educating. Once you have to tell people who you are, or that you're 'proud to represent the Royal Air Force' of all things, you've lost.

With the greatest of respect too, saying stuff like.. 'we are a visible way of reminding people of our colleagues’ hard work and professionalism in the line of duty', all we will do, is remind people that we have people doing aerobatics and going home to nice warm houses, when we have people facing danger and going home to a crappy cold tent. Thats being generous in fact. Because your bog standard bloke in the street won't make the connection anyway, and if he does, you'll have had to tell him about it, which again, creates new hierarchal issues with brand values and.. oh god, this is just too awful.

The best motoring brands, such as Bentley, Audi etc, make do without telling the world who they are. They don't need to, because they are known as the best, and thats good enough for them. They rise above the like of Skoda and Ford. They simply rely on a 'brand' perception, a logo, an image.. a set of values. Call me stupid, but isn't the roundel good enough for these people any more? Just try changing it in 5 years time too, and see what happens when you want to undo the harm you've done.

Dreadful dreadful dreadful. Now we're treating a Hawk like a RAF key ring.

[Lamenting Navigator]

Bah! They'll have to update that nice big picture in LHR terminal three!

[dave_perry]

I think it will be one of those logo's that you frown upon at first but after a while just get used to it.

[artdes]

What about these nice sedated a/c? :yuk:

http://thunderbirds.airforce.com/mediakit/p13.html

http://www.bluejacket.com/usn/images/ac/fa18c_blue-angels_pcola.jpg

[airborne_artist]

“The Red Arrows’ Hawk aircraft are known and loved by millions of people around the world.” said Wing Commander Jas Hawker, Red 1. “We needed to keep a careful balance between making our famous aircraft unrecognisable and reminding people that we are proud to represent the Royal Air Force. This is especially important when many Royal Air Force personnel are away from home, serving overseas in front line operations such as Afghanistan and Iraq. We are a visible way of reminding people of our colleagues’ hard work and professionalism in the line of duty. The change to our aircraft paint scheme will help us to do this more effectively.”

If someone can prove that Wg Cdr Hawker came up with the words in bold himself, and with no prompting from a spin doctor, I'll do a Tombstone round the Market Square in Wallingford on a market day, during shopping hours...

[Flik Roll]

The logo just makes it too messy... it certainly wasn't needed. Like anyone needs reminding that the Red Arrows are from the Royal Air Force with a dodgy Y and A

Speaking of corporate cr@p - I actually saw someone wearing one of those RAF wannabe flying jackets the other day IN PUBLIC :eek::eek:

[Tiger_mate]

Plain stripe looks far better:
http://www.tvacres.com/images/starsky_model.jpg
...if a bit seventies!!

[airsound]

I've probably watched the Reds display as much as most people - and I don't really think the three words (however spelt) will be particularly visible when viewed from the average crowd line at a display.

That's not to disagree with much of what's been said here - merely to suggest it doesn't matter much.

Off to the Dubai air show next week - I'll report on what it looks like there....

airsound

[rafmatt]

it was painted by civvies
because they have binned the painters trade. The reds have been done by civvies for the last couple of years along with the BBMF and Queens flight.

f****ng ***ts

[BEagle]

"The logo just makes it too messy... it certainly wasn't needed. Like anyone needs reminding that the Red Arrows are from the Royal Air Force with a dodgy Y and A"

It reminds me of the days of Letraset - when you'd run out of the right font and have to find the nearest similar which would do. Hoping that no-one would notice.

What utter wanquerre came up with that awful design? Someone in the 'Corporate branding and marketing' department of the mad MoD box?

It simply says "Sorry, we ran out of letters and can't afford any more the right size"

Great 'Royal Air Farce' photoshop, November4! And Al R, very wise words indeed.

[Ray Dahvectac]

Totally unnecessary change IMO.

Surprising that the new paint scheme does not incorporate a pair of RAF training shoes (complete with RAF roundel) instead of the standard pattern roundel. :rolleyes:

[rafmatt]

It should be like the new Ferrari F1 scheme. Go with the metallic Red with no writing except for a small ROYAL AIR FORCE in a different font in Metallic Blue alog the nose.

[Wensleydale]

After all, we are no longer members of an armed service. We are an "armed business".

:ugh:

I am sure that the new logo will add value for our customers........:yuk:

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

This was the bit that confused me“We needed to keep a careful balance between making our famous aircraft unrecognisable ... ”
:confused:





...or was that a Freudian misquote?

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

What if the uneducated people were the enemy then? :8

Ha! Didn't think of that now did you?

[JFZ90]

Looks terrible. No need to worry about how much was spent on consultancy for this - not even a consultancy would come up with something this bad surely (if they did then thats another scandal altogether).

Tapering letters, sloping A & Y. My goodness what a complete design mess! Looks to me like an in-house total amateur job - sadly looks like not enough people were asked if it looked any good. Other theory is that someone senior thought of it, were told it was crap but ignored them by deluding themselves they were in possession of great vision, could see the big picture, "I'm sure I'm right" etc. etc.

Still, on the bright side it makes you realise how good & enduring the original design was.

[Tim McLelland]

Guess it was inevitable. That's the RAF's shiny new "corporate" titling with it's own distinctive (and universally disliked) font. Spare a thought for Mr H as I'm sure it wasn't exactly his idea!

Sadly, it's a symptom of just how tiresome the RAF's current PR guru's are. From my own experience and observations they really don't have a clue and they're doing the poor men and women of the RAF no favours at all.

Wonder how long it will be before the titles start appearing on aircraft other than helicopters? Not long I fear!

The bit that makes me laugh is how they've jumped on their copyrighted "RAF marking" which is of course a British Military Roundel. Not quite sure how they can lay claim to something which wasn't theirs in the first place. Still, nothing surprises me about these guys any more.

[FFP]

Fantastic bit of politicking by Red One there.
To make a connection between "Red Arrows" and "Operational Theatres" via paint schemes and the corporate logo deserves an AFC all by itself.

Thought exactly the same myself.

[harrogate]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/harrogate/red1.jpg

[kiwi chick]

LMAO!! :D :D :D :D

(tho I DID think the mirror-wing thingy bit looked pretty cool... :oh:)

[passpartout]

I think it's totally valid.

After all, how else will anyone know that the 9 red aeroplanes belong to the Royal Air Force?:suspect:

[Tiger_mate]

Oh Bollox; another keyboard gets sprayed with tea: ...and its all Harrogates fault!

Top skills

[Lima Juliet]

The Red Arrows leave the UK on Sunday 4 November 2007 for a six-week good will tour of the Middle and Far East, returning to the UK on 18 December 2007. They are set to visit 13 countries, including Jordan, the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Oman, Malaysia, India and Pakistan.

What happened to the dates at Lashkar Gah, Sangin et al? Put a bloody gun pod on them and make them do something bloody useful!!!

Anyone clever enough to be able to put "Women's Aux Balloon Corps" on the side of the jet picture for me???

LJ :E

[artdes]

:E

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/8421/123xv2.jpg

[BEagle]

Excellent!



.

[Gainesy]

We are stuffed for AT but Airhead Command can rent a Herc for a six-week Swan-Ex?
Something stinks.

[Lima Juliet]

Artdes

PERFICK!

Thanks mate :ok:

[orgASMic]

Now, let me get this straight - the jets are still red with a white stripe and its says 'Royal Air Force' on the side. What is new about any of that except the cost? :confused:
Reminds me of when BP trumpetted their shiny new logo some years ago, when the image consultants they hired just swapped the green letters on a yellow background to yellow on green at a cost of several hundred thousand quid.

[XV277]

Considering the original scheme (give or take some fin decoration) lasted 28 years, you can ask:

(i) What was wrong with the old one?
(ii) Did some 'Brand imagineeer' say 'That's soooooooooo 1908s, we need to bring you into the Noughties'?

and be thankful they didn't change the name to something more PC and warlike than 'Arrows' - 'The Pink Ribbons' anyone?

[BigBusDriver]

I'm hesitant to wade into this, as I am not a member of the armed forces, and never have been. However, I am a member of that group that is frequently accused of not caring about the forces; the British Public. I do care about my country's armed forces, and about the poor state they have been forced into by the Powers That Be. I am also a resident of the USA, where I see a much greater level of public support for the military.

From this viewpoint I wold like to make an observation. While I know that the British military has been treated very poorly by recent governments and cannot imagine what it must be like to go through that decline in person, I must say that if you expect the public to support you more you really should at least try to come across as a bit less cynical yourselves, at least in public forums.

The way you are carrying on about a minor change to the paint scheme of a PR tool you would think Gordon Brown himself had come to your doors demanding a kidney. The level of public support between the UK/US is often brought up in this forum, well the other side of that coin is that you don't hear the US military constantly complaining about every little thing. After a while it becomes less an endearing foible of the British Tommy and more like whinging.

The things you people in uniform do make me proud to be British, and God knows you have earned the right to a grumble, but good grief people, every little change isn't a conspiracy against you.

:ok:
Soapbox........Stowed/secure

[Flik Roll]

Everyone is ranting because the money could have been spent on something a bit further up the 'to do' list.

Anyone want to stick my name on one :E

[Lima Juliet]

BigBusDriver

Thanks for the support. I think that this is entirely indicative of Government spin - money for shiney new logos and a dedicated transport aircraft to ferry their lordships around the Middle East in 5*plus accomodation; no money to get RnR transport aircraft for the guys who are fighting hand-to-hand in the Sangin and Gereshk Valleys (I'm talking about the Army "brown jobs"). It took me 3 days to get to Al Udeid via the RAF's fragile air transport system from Brize - I nearly booked my own £200odd flight to Dohar out of my own money because I was getting sooo very p!ssed off. However, I wasn't waiting to go home for my 7 days with my wife and family like the poor souls were awaiting my aircraft in Al Udeid. Maybe now you realise the malice in our sentiments?

Finally, this is just the thin edge of the wedge. Politicians claim expenses for just about anything and are relatively unaudited, if I buy anything over £5 during the day I have to provide receipts - then at the same time they will trust me to authorise the flight of a very expensive aeroplane - WTF Over...

If you want to learn more then look over the rest of the forum - the trust has gone and there are many people who are using up their good-will at an alarming pace.

Sorry about the rant, but you did ask...

LJ :)

[SaddamsLoveChild]

will the reds solve the middle easts problems by doing a few airshows? I think not. good on them for getting a jolly before Xmas but I wonder how many hangers on are travelling with them. Shouldnt that fact that we cant provide a Herc and have had to rely on the americans, tell them and the powers that be, that we are a bit stretched at the moment and it probably isnt the best use of financial resources (Rates/JPA/Fuel)

Or is it in a bid to get BAE some more dodgy contracts or to regain favour in the UAE.

As I said good on them but in the grand scheme of Defence Diplomacy cant think it will pay a large dividend.:ugh:

[Never Alert]

Lets not forget that BAE pay for the majority of overseas trips.

Hopefully, they'll help sell a few Hawks & save a few jobs at Brough...

[harrogate]

... Red Arrows tour of the Middle East?

Think of the possibilities...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/harrogate/redsbaghdad.jpg

[4mastacker]

BBC East Midlands Today have just done a piece on the "new scheme". In my own humble opinion as a non-flyer I have to say it looks ..well... tacky.(I'm being tactful).

The company I now work for paid 3 million quid in a re-branding exercise, justification for which produced a bucket full of advertising agency gobbledy-gook. The customers' response was "Why change it? What was wrong with the old style"? Done properly, re-branding can look good and it does improve the customers reaction and ups the sales; done badly, it leaves the organisation open to ridicule.

I think the Reds latest effort falls into the latter category. As my old teacher would say "1/10 - must try harder".

[Dan Gerous]

harrogate, bitchin pic :ok:

[Al R]

Big bus driver,

I don't think its so much a conspiracy; more people getting fed up with superficial and counterproductive rot being catered for, rather than issues of importance. And catered for badly at that.

I was chatting with a SNCO tonight, who has done almost 30 years service, and he was sitting in a slum. On deployment somewhere? No, his room in the SNCO and WOs Mess. Where are the priorities? The fact that this is the blind leading the blind must be the most disspiriting thing of all. And of course, it was done by a civvy.

It can have no reason, other than some pillock needing to get his name noticed on some loose minute about it. The RAF continues to be sold out, from within. Why on earth was there no one of integrity and balls to say 'Hang on. A) Why is money being wasted when we tell the troops there is no money? B) And why is it being done in such a crass and useless manner?'.

Do you think that the Royal Navy would allow 'The Royal Navy' to be splashed down the side of HMS Victory? No, because we all know who it belongs to.

[artdes]

Talking about tacky & waste of money.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuisT_is4NA

[Al R]

Ok, so I confess. I was sad enough to actually watch that. Whats even sadder though, is that whoever it was representing the 'Royal Air Force' didn't bother to proof it properly, or more likely, knew sod all about the Royal Air Force.

This sums up everything for me. Modernistic toss, all style (ha), no substance. Its a bloody mess and no mistake. No doubt, whoever is in charge of publicity and recruiting or who it was in uniform who approved this will be allowed to stay in post in order 'to put right, the wrong'. If it wasn't all such a bad joke, it'd be laughable. Cue jokes about 'I knew we should have kept Navigators, because..'.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y95/biggest/raffilm.jpg

[rafmatt]

Thats nothing compared to what the two new aircraft tugs at Kinloss have on them will post a pic when i get one.

a 6ft RAF Roundel
on both sides

wtf..............

it just looks so gay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh::ugh: :ugh:

[normally right blank]

The RAF lettering on the Gnat: How long did that last?
Was it carried over to the Hawk?
"Keep it simple sweetheart"
If "Joe Public" think it is Ferrari's air display team, so what!

[bayete]

I found it amusing that the next 3 related videos titles are:
"Tornado making hash of AAR"
"Fire ass"
"RAF rise above the rest"
Genius:ok:
Didn't there used to be something derrogitory about Brown or Prescott as the top search result on Google.
P.S. Quote "Hercules (J) the only Herc quick enough to keep up with the Typhoon"
What is the J ramp and door limit, is it the same as the K?
A simple yes or no will suffice no slagging match need :=, I'm just curious.

[Al R]

Bayete,

Alas, you stopped too soon. Competing with 'Flying Objects' and just a little further down the list is Kinloss 'legend' Jamie, starring in that other recruiting classic.. 'Puke Drinker'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHuaR-pkwmw

[Clockwork Mouse]

First, I apologise to Jas Hawker and The Red Arrows for having started this thread. In my naivety I did not think that it would degenerate into the can of worms for which this forum is now regrettably becoming renowned.

The pros and cons of the new logo are unimportant. As far as I am concerned The Red Arrows represent to the world all that is best about the RAF, our Armed Forces and our country; striving for and maintaining the highest of standards, the ultimate in professionalism, giving our nation something that is world beating, to delight in and to be proud of.

The negative, small-minded, envious and disloyal wingeing tone of many of the (I am sorry to have to say it) Air Force posters on this thread represents what is worst in our Forces and our country. BigBusDriver, a civilian from the US, comments on it succinctly. Take note of what he says. This is a very public forum and the way you represent your Service on it makes me, a former soldier, feel ashamed of you.

Last, I want to wish the Team a successful, safe and rewarding tour to the Far East, representing our country, its Forces and its manufacturing industry. Stay safe.

[Al R]

Clockwork Mouse said in his first post.. : What do people think of the new paint scheme, which can be seen on the RAF website?

Ohhh. You should have said you wanted us to agree with you! It would have made things far easier.

I am offended at your attitude. Please, if you want to use a straw man argument, do so.. but whatever you do, don't call me negative, small-minded, envious and disloyal. I don't know about you Mouse, but I've earned my funny pension, I have served my country (quite well, even though I say it myself) and I've earned the right to have my say, even if it isn't sycophantic mindless twaddle.

[OilCan]

did you seriously expect anything else? :rolleyes:

a former soldier, feel ashamed of you.


You've joined the majority then.:p

[rudekid]

Al R

If you'd read any of the other Red Arrows threads in which Clockwork Mouse is involved, you would realise that any criticism of them is impossible for him to accept!

I agree with you that, it is surprising that he would start a thread like this and not expect any adverse comment from the jealous, petty-minded and unprofessional people in the RAF not lucky enough to be able to ponce around in a Red flying suit contributing nothing to current operations.:E

I think his son must be in the Reds or in the support team. Any truth in that?

TFRK

[Al R]

I didn't have a pop at the Reds though, when I see them at places like Goodwood, I want to grab people around me and say 'Look you poncy fu:mad:kers, take your faces out of your cheap glasses of plonk and gaze up in abject humble awe at a representation of the finest combat fliers in the world today', and as I said, my respect and admiration for what they do is boundless.

But my point, and many others too, isn't aimed at them, but rather the w:mad:nkers who haven't got a clue about things like passion, pride, loyalty.. all that good stuff, who come out with a poxy half arsed paint job like that in order to make themselves look good. With the greatest of respect to Red 1, he possibly just churned out some copy (if he ever even saw it) generated by some underling in the Department for Amateurish PR Bo:mad:locks who needed to justify his place at the trough.

If anything, those of us who deride this silly civilianisation and dilution of the Red Arrows and the ones defending their core values. I rather think that Mouse has a greater issue with affording the opposition ammunition by debating so critically and introspectively it in a public way. To an extent, he has a point. Open criticism such as the 'Questions for CAS' thread won't be doing CAS any favours, but the bottom line is, things need to improve. Sure, the Air Chief Marshalls might have no new clothes, but as we're constantly told, the RAF is not a democracy, but it sure as hell is a meritocracy.

[The Swinging Monkey]

I too am an avid supporter of the Reds, but I must agree with Al R on this point. I don't know of anyone who doesn't know that the Red Arrows are RAF!

It is just another pointless and unneccessary waste of valuable money that the service can ill-afford, and displays a certain amount of contempt for those who need it most - SH, AT et al.

Clockwork Mouse.
Your comments were unwarranted. People have the right to comment on this kind of thing as much as anyone else - certainly some more than you do! To call them negative, small-minded, envious and disloyal simply because they disagree with you is a bad show, and I would suggest you retract those comments.

I would think that the likes of Al R and the hundreds of others who are frankly 'slumming it' at the moment, whether it be in Afg, Irag or in the mess, will be dissapointed that the RAF has found itself able to repaint 9 aircraft in a new (not-needed) colour schene, at some ridiculaous cost, whilst they are living in squaller many of them, without adequate kit etc.

TSM

[rafmatt]

actually it would cost f all if they let the RAF painters paint them.
Its the fact they come under a civvy contract that makes em expensive.

stop bloody moaning it could be worse they could have just binned em

[L1A2 discharged]

actually it would cost f all if they let the RAF painters paint them.
Its the fact they come under a civvy contract that makes em expensive.



.... except that the RAF has just got rid of the painters:ugh:

[rafmatt]

we are still painting we havnt gone yet!!!!!
Its not like they said the painters are finished then we all dissapear.:8

lol

£5 pair of painted shoes get em while they last.....

[Human Factor]

The Red Arrows. Possibly (probably) the most professional military aerobatic display team in the world. They have been around since the Sixties and are certainly the most recognisable display team in the world and are great ambassadors for UK PLC. I am a huge fan.

Good job someone thought to write "Royal Air Force" on the side though. I may have mistaken them for someone else.:rolleyes:

[BigBusDriver]

You may be surprised how many people outside (and probably inside unfortunately) the UK would look at you in bewilderment if you shgowed them a picture of a Red Hawk.

I work in the aviation industry in the US, with a lot of former military pilots and ground crew, and in casual conversation I've been amazed at how many of them have little or no clue about air power outside the US.

[FFP]

In that case, I blame the RAF Exchange officers out there then. What the hell they all doing out there if not educating their colleagues on UK military aircraft ;)

[OilCan]

Bigbusdriver said,

I've been amazed at how many of them have little or no clue about air power outside the US.

There are many of them who have no clue about anything outside the US, including the fuc*king president.:(

[Al R]

Big Bus Driver said:
You may be surprised how many people outside (and probably inside unfortunately) the UK would look at you in bewilderment if you shgowed them a picture of a Red Hawk.

I work in the aviation industry in the US, with a lot of former military pilots and ground crew, and in casual conversation I've been amazed at how many of them have little or no clue about air power outside the US.


You're right, I would be very surprised. But thats not the issue. it was not one of Red 1's stated aims, although it does raise an interesting point. You mean that this (gulp) paint job might not have been done to make the lads in the field feel respected, but instead, is nothing more than a tacky sales device? :eek:

Sorry, I refuse to accept that we'd be fed bull**** and tacky spin.. uh uh, absolutely no way. :=

[Gainesy]

Swanex? Jealous?
Not at all Obs, got those T-shirts. What hacks me off is that we have to enhance our reputation with the Yanks as "The Borrowers" and equally, any bought in/rented assets (C-130) should be supporting the troops deployed.

[Tiger_mate]

Civilianise the Red Arrows!!

Then nobody will care if it is a BAe Roadshow with 'chartered' air support.

[Two's in]

Call me an old Badger, but my God, if you have to verbally explain a change to a visual device, then it probably isn't a very good or effective change to that device - classic corporate "branding" to give some stinking consultant access to quarter of a million quid of taxpayers money again.

As for the "whinging" accusation, some of you need to brush up on the merits of banter over the dangers of carping - most of this is banter. And why would such an innnocuous change inspire this level of response if there wasn't some underlying and fundamental dissatisfaction with the very fabric of service life today? This is not whinging, it's symptomatic of a far deeper problem with service morale that will be ignored at Des Browne's peril. Another straw for the camel's back anyone?

[Albert Driver]

In the airline world the fleet always gets a new paint scheme just before the owners go out of business. :eek:

[Hoots]

Although I do not like the new paint scheme I do think that the reds are a very hard working good bunch. However, I'm just wondering if they will be utilising some of the on-base accommodation when they are on tour or will they be down town in a plush hotel. After all we are always told that we have certain restrictions for a good reason. Be nice to think it applies to all.

[normally right blank]

Like this one:
http://perso.orange.fr/provenceairspot/737maersk.jpg
http://perso.orange.fr/provenceairspot/IMG_6417.jpg (old one)
Don't worry too much about some Americans lack of education. Give them back with: "Oh I love those Navy "Thunderbirds". They are the best!" ;)

[goudie]

As I said in another thread, the RAF is doing no more than reflecting our society. The new paint job and Red 1's statement is part of the all important 'Corporate Spin'.
On this latest tour will they be accompanied by a Trade Delegation as was the custom with the Royal Yacht?

[samuraimatt]

the R.A.F. ???? Don't you mean the RAF?

[goudie]

Yes, note edit!

[Al R]

Thinking about it, I rather like R.A.F instead of RAF.

The time might be right to strip away the spin and the hype and instead, go back to a time when we did things because they were the correct things to do. And not simply because it was considerd that perception needed to be pandered to with superficial corporate modernity. Hopefully, it would fire a shot across the bows of the lentil munching latte sippers at the War Ministry who seem to be running the place.

[goudie]

Seems R.A.F. is old hat now. When it was questioned I checked and sure enough nobody, not even the RAF, use full stops but I'm sure they did once, in my day, many years ago.

[212man]

Ah, but taking out the full stops allows you to make it an acronym, then you can really abuse it!:ugh:

[MrBernoulli]

From the article on the RAF website about the new paint job:

During the Red Arrows’ 23-minute display, pilots pull up to eight times .....How apt for the Red Peckers. More pulling ...... and tugging ...... crack on chaps!

[barnstormer1968]

Sorry chaps, you all need to keep up a bit here. Surely now it's officially RAF.

Oops, just found my tongue back in my cheek again then!

Barnstormer1968:ok:

[moggiee]

It still looks like Dave Starsky's Gran Torino.

[samuraimatt]

The time might be right to strip away the spin and the hype and instead, go back to a time when we did things because they were the correct things to do.

That was in your time old fella. You need to let go as you are no longer part of the Modern Royal Air Force, or indeed any Air Force. The new generation are in charge now and they don't have time for your out dated 1950's ideas of what makes a great Air Force. Move on, sure go for a pint at the RAFA club and tell people how good it was in your day, but just move on. Things have improved now old timer. Relax and sit back and enjoy the twilight years of your life.:ok:

[goudie]

If things have improved why is there so much whingeing and cynicism (see 'Is anybody happy') over a paint job?
Anyway I was brought up never to say 'raff'.

[Al R]

Samurai Matt spluttered back:
Al reasonably said: The time might be right to strip away the spin and the hype and instead, go back to a time when we did things because they were the correct things to do.
That was in your time.

Indeed. :)

Before you start insulting me again, can you remind me. Have I ever..

a) Insulted you by referring to you in a dismissive manner,

or

b) Were you ever shouted at by a Gunner?

Thanks. :ok:

[Tiger_mate]

At a risk of severe thread drift, the one big thing that has changed over the years (& I too do not say RAFF) is appreciation

....and regardless of what generation you come from, this is missing, and it is very important.

Minis wailing at 4am and 30mins to get into work, if you shaved on the way you got a bollicking, if you did a runner for the autobahn you got arrested. The German barns had rats and you froze, AOCs was a right royal pain in the arse, but above all else, you believed in what you were doing, and you got appreciation.

Now back to the thread. New kit, new helicopters, quality of life, teamwork and morale are all missing and when money is spent in a pointless exercise such as this, one cannot help but think that somebody, somewhere has got their priorities all wrong. Guys chewing dust by day and reliving nightmares at night have every right not to feel appreciated when in need of basic essentials whilst viewing threads such as this.

samuraimatt, patronising and uncalled for. There was a time when military ethos existed, and you did not need to keep the PEd staff in a job to prove it. The state of the nation is an effing mess, and there is no solution whilst MPs pull the strings, and those with the guts to speak out get sacked.

Rant over; I'll get my coat

[giblets]

I will so laugh if somebody at an airshow changes the 'O' of Force to an 'A'

Maybe after a recent sale of Typhoons to the middle east it should be 'Riyal' Air Force?

[goudie]

Samuriamatt
God willing you too will, one day, be a 'has been'. Look forward to it, it's a good position to be in.:):):) Far better than the alternative.:{:{:{

[Al R]

Perhaps when Sam was refarring to 'outdated ideas', how things have 'improved now' and 'how good it was in your day' he was referring to the concept (perish the thought) that married quarters should be dry and warm.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7079700.stm

Signed,

The old timer

(my italics)

[SARREMF]

Anybody notice there is a war on? Perhaps that is exactly what is wrong with the modern RAF? Too much time thinking about paint schemes when lots of boys and girls couldn't give a ....... about the colour! Just getting home in one piece.

Enough Already its only a commercial!

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

My mate has been clearing out his late father's stuff and came across a signed Red Arrows poster which I have worked out is the 1978 team.

http://www.deltaweb.co.uk/reds/1978.html

1. Sqn Ldr F J Hoare
2. D R Carvell
3. M B Stoner
4. M J Phillips
5. L A Grose
6. M T Curley
7. R M Thomas
8. S R Johnson
9. B C Scott

If any of you out there in Prooneland are interested a donation to RBL with a token percentage to my mate will secure it for you.

Also in the cardboard tube were the following posters, looks like they're all from the same era.

Nimrod XV248
Nimrod XV226
Vulcan XM646
VC10 104
Phantom XV437
Spitfire
Hurricane LF363
Hawk



http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e66/SirPeterHardingsLovechild/Reds77.jpg

[Ron Fenest]

Have you considered posting this over on ARRSE as they have a very healthy RBL auction going on right now:

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewforum/f=67.html

[Tigs2]

Sir Peter
Please PM me with an amount that will please your mate. I am very interested, as two of the guys are known to me. M Stoner, who was ex Lightnings and gave me my first ever flight, and Tim Curley, my instructor from FT.

Thanks:ok::ok:

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Then it would go to a good home rather than being in a cardboard tube in my mates garage for nearly 30 years.

But this is for charridy, so we'd better leave it a couple of days.

My first thoughts (sorry about going public Tigs) are a tenner for my mate, and a matching tenner for RBL.

I'll pay the postage otherwise MI5 and the Directorate of Corporate Communications will enter the bidding to get my address!

If anyone else is interested, my mates tenner stays as his cut, the RBL get the rest.

You want the other stuff as well Tigs?

When this drops to page 2 its yours

How exciting!

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Health and Safety would go Ape at this nowadays :eek:

http://www.deltaweb.co.uk/reds/images/1978team3.jpg

[goudie]

No! He meant the pollution from the smoke.

[MrBernoulli]

Way-hey! My mate Lloyd Grose is there. What a gent, an absolute gent. Most unassuming bloke and former Red Arrow that I ever worked with. Does anyone know where he is these days?

[27mm]

Ahem, Sir Peter, with great respect - can see Nigel Champness and Roy Barber's signatures on the poster, but not Lloyd Grose's - so I think it may not be 1978.....

[Al R]

No! He meant the pollution from the smoke.


Isn't white smoke from the exhaust usually a head gasket failure? Luckily, they don't appear to have ROYAL AIR FORCE splashed down the sides, so thankfully, the crowd probably didn't know who they belonged to.

[DownloadDog]

Way-hey! My mate Lloyd Grose is there. What a gent, an absolute gent. Most unassuming bloke and former Red Arrow that I ever worked with. Does anyone know where he is these days?


I last saw him at Cranwell, where he was on CFS, in 1998!

[Mr C Hinecap]

Lloyd Grose was certainly there in 1995 - he took me up for my air experience flight.
'So, young Hinecap - what do you want to do in the Bulldog today?'
'I dunno Sir - I've never been in one of these things before.'
'Well - they handle much quicker than the big ones, more agile, aeros etc..'
'No Sir - never been in an aeroplane before!'
'Ah. OK.'
He had me taxi, take off, some other stuff, loop, stall turn etc. It was fun. Still didn't make me want to do it on a regular basis tho :}

Complete gent.

[BOAC]

Photo is indeed 1977 team.

Leader Sqn Ldr F J Hoare (RIP)
2 Flt Lt D R Carvell
3 Flt Lt R S Barber
4 Flt Lt M J Phillips
5 Flt Lt N S Champness
6 Flt Lt M Cornwell
7 Flt Lt M T Curley
8 Flt Lt R M Thomas
9 Flt Lt M B Stoner
Manager Flt Lt M B Whitehouse
Engineer Flt Lt A Hunt

Lloyd flew in the '78 team and I believe went off to aviate in the USA on retirement from the RAF.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Thanks for that BOAC, I was just about to get it back out the tube.

Apologies for my heinous Red Arrows spotting misdemeanor.

Tigs, looks like its yours, I'll tell my mate it was worth nothing and has gone to a nice home for a charity donation. He's had plenty of money off me and my mates. PM me your address for Saturday.

I'm away from the pooter for a couple of days though.

[Tigs2]

Sir Peter
Done! £25 to dispose of as you wish. Get in touch when you get back.:ok:

[MrBernoulli]

Lloyd flew in the '78 team and I believe went off to aviate in the USA on retirement from the RAF.

That is true BOAC, but he came back to the RAF!

Thanks to the others for their info about Lloyd Grose, but as I was on CFS staff until early 1998 I was aware that he was there then! I was hoping to find out what he had done after his stint at Bristol UAS - did he retire and settle in the Cotswolds?

[Artie Fufkin]

After finishing the Great North Run this year we were treated to a display by the Red Arrows. During the display they appeared to overfly the crowd, which I thought wasn't permitted. The particular manouvre in question was 3 aircraft flying in towards the beach and pulling up sharply but appearing to fly over the crowd.

Is this possible or just an optical illusion?

Terrific display, everyone loved it.

[vecvechookattack]

I heard a Buzz at the post display symposium that the Reds are not displaying next year.....Any truth in that rumour?

[L1A2 discharged]

AFAIK the mighty reds :D are the only aerobatic performers allowed to overfly crowds, however most of the display will be along the centreline allocated by the display planner and agreed with the risk assessment.

[GalleyTeapot]

No over crowd flying allowed anymore, hence the trademark arrival in diamond 9 formation from behind the crowd being a thing of several years past. However where the display line and crowd line are in a place where the crowd line cannot be policed then its possible of course that some overflight may occur I suppose.

[Ada Quonsett]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21128180@N03/

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Nice piccies but why Red Arrows Oman. It could just as easily be Woga Woga or Wigan (except for the boat piccie, which could be Wick)?:confused:

[camelspyyder]

I wonder if they stayed in on camp or somewhere more luxurious...:)

not that it would have wound up the frontline chaps at all!!

CS

[camelspyyder]

I just noticed your handle... Weren't you the very old lady passenger in the original AIRPORT movie - circa 1973?

you must be about 110 now - please please share the secret of your longevity...

CS

[vecvechookattack]

No, there is plenty of military accommodation in Oman. Not even the Red Arrows would try and attempt to defraud the general public by claiming there wasn't any military accommodation available in Oman and sleeping in comfy hotels.

Is it true that the Red Arrows are not displaying in the UK next year? Heard a buzz that they were in the US for the better half of the season

[SRENNAPS]

A very good friend of mine works at RAF St Athan. This person was saying that at the moment Hawks from RAF Valley use Pembrey Sands and then land at St Athan for a refuel. Apparently this facility will no longer be available from March. Does anybody know what the outcome of this will be.

[Green Flash]

Drop tanks? Sorry. Hang on, what state is Brawdy's runway in? Or maybe Llanbedr?

[charliegolf]

Brawdy's in excellent nick.

CG

[mary_hinge]

" Apparently this facility will no longer be available from March. Does anybody no what the outcome of this will be. "

Sorry, but do you mean St Athan will no longer be available?

[SRENNAPS]

Apparently the refuel facility will be gone.

St Athan will remain...........and hopefully a military base of some form.

[Green Flash]

I've got it! Some excellent practise for desert ops - land on the beach! Blimey, I'm brilliant, me. Must open another bottle of Fraoch.:\

[Magnersdrinker]

vecvechookattack (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=108038)



Is it true that the Red Arrows are not displaying in the UK next year? Heard a buzz that they were in the US for the better half of the season


I think if that was the case then they would be the first for getting binned . they are a public messenger for the RAF and the UK Military, I think there would be outroar if they did not. TBH they are doing **** all for recruitment lately be as well spending time over in the US , maybe they can do a better recruit drive there, we need the troops.

[Truckkie]

So glad the reds have a new paint scheme and are busy touring the globe. Meanwhile I am busy xmas treeing airframes in-theatre and still waiting for fire retardant AEA to be replaced.
What a waste of money:mad:

[BEagle]

What about the aerodrome a mere 5 minutes away - which was rebuilt especially for Hawk training?

Heaven in Devon - RAF Chivenor.

That is, if the (jolly brave Royals) haven't totally trashed the place.....

[Flik Roll]

The RHAG was too expensive to maintain.
Cost of more tome on the range Vs. maintaining the RHAG... the extra time lost out.

[LateArmLive]

It always amuses me when idiots complain about the Reds being a waste of money. Jealousy? Hmmm. Maybe if these people actually knew anything about the Reds and their funding, they'd realise that they cost next to the square root of f-all to run, as most of the costs are paid by sponsorship.
But it's fine to call them battle-dodging wastes of money if it makes you feel better :mad:

[Elmlea]

... but Hawks don't use RHAGs? Do you mean the barrier?

[plans123]

I think what he means is TAF(H)Det is closing......why though?
Contractural problems at Valley maybe?
The Icy hand of the bean counters looking to make cuts everywhere? (apart from themselves)
or possibly
They're thinking of re-opening the range on the IOM and no longer need people at St Athan??

:ugh:

[camelspyyder]

re VVHA's post -

anyone in Oman care to enlighten us on where the reds were accommodated?

[Megaton]

These guys, remember, have all served on the front line and most of them go back to it afterwards. They are your next door neighbours and mates. What does it matter if they do stay in hotels in Oman? They are supposed to be ambassadors for the country. Their cost is minimal compared with, for example, the Army's tv advertising budget.

This is what makes this country rubbish - guys do well for themselves and all that happens is that people take ill-informed and cheap shots at them.

[Magnersdrinker]

Do you have the exact figures of there running costs !!!!

Im not crying them down but is it really something we need. Everyone is ohhhh im proud to be English when i see the Red Arrows and all that , yes it restores English pride maybe but in this current climate when the UK forces are at there knees with cash , i think this is a necessity that we dont need !!! Sure mothball till things get better or for the 100 year anniversary !!

an arguable point im sure I will be told otherwise, but in reality there has been talk of them getting binned.

thoughts !!

[BEagle]

No thanks, mileandahalf, I'll pass on your kind offer to you and your friends' pink marigolds, surgical masks and wrestle naked in the mud party....

If what I heard was correct, namely that someone high up in the muddy world decided to fill the BFIs with concrete (and do whatever else he could to ensure that the cost of restoring RAF Chivenor to its proper role as that of a RAF fighter training base would be prohibitive), then my comments stand.

If not, then sorry.

[SirToppamHat]

Dear Mods

Please could you make this Thread a sticky? It could be called:

'The Six-weekly Ill-informed Reds Bashing Thread'

It would save the same group of narrow-minded trolls that infest these forums having to spout the same tripe everytime there is the merest mention of the Reds.

For what it's worth, I think most of the tour costs are picked-up by the sponsors - so what does it matter where they stay?

As for the overall cost of the RAFAT, does anyone actually believe that the annual budget line would be re-assigned to the good of the Service(s)? Thought not.

ISTR that the RAFAT costs every man, woman and child in the UK about 9 pence per annum. Compare this with the Northern Rock farce that has, according some chap on Radio 4 yesterday, so far cost everyone in this country £900 each! It was pretty clear from the ongoing discussions on the subject that we are extremely unlikely to ever see that money again (I wonder if I can get a loan like that?). At least I get something for my 9 pence!

STH

[camelspyyder]

Frankly sirTH if every other member of the RAF who has served in Oman in the last 7 years has had to stay in the craphole that is the DOB, why shouldn't the reds also?:cool:

[LateArmLive]

Because they may have had the chance not to? And if you think the DOB at Seeb is bad, then count yourself lucky that you've not had to go anywhere nasty.

[shawshank]

lets compare the cost of the Reds to the shower of s**t we call the English football team and see which of the two organizations makes the general public feel more patriotic. I would rather watch 9 men in red suits doing aerobatics than 11 men with 3 lions on their chest prancing about on a football pitch anyday.

[A2QFI]

Prancing? More like poncing! And all this, X earns £100,000 a week at Ch*lsea - he jolly doesn't - he is just paid it, nowhere near earning it!

[serf]

Excellent word Magners - outroar!

[charliegolf]

I would rather watch 9 men in red suits doing aerobatics than 11 men with 3 lions on their chest prancing about on a football pitch anyday.

Unfortunately Shaw, me 'n you and most on this forum are in a heeeuge minority. AND, footie costs the public purse nowt (indirectly swells it, most likely) whereas the reds do.

But for me, they easily earn their corn: that's the message to get across, I suppose.

CG