JMC A330's to go??

[Andy P]

It is reported that JMC have cancelled the second A330 and are in talks to find a home for the one they have.....Anyone know more?

[Andy P]

.....and by the way, I also hear that due to cost cuts they are only giving snack boxes on all flights under 3hrs 30mins. :p

[GOLDEN LION]

I AM HEARING THE SAME THING. THEY ARE HAVING A HARD TIME MAKING COMMERCIAL SENSE WITH THE A330. LONGHAUL BOOKINGS ARE BADLY DOWN FOR S02 AND NOW I HEAR COMPETING CHARTER AIRLINES ARE ADDING 747'S TO THERE FLEETS FOR PEAK SEASON AT CHEAPER SEAT RATES. THE PINCH IS EVEN MORE ON JMC THAN EVER NOW. :confused: :confused: :confused:

[hotnhigh]

WHAT????

[Donkey Duke]

Yikes! I've got an idea---Let's put the Guv
in charge. Right away he will slash salaries, slash morale, and get rid of all new and costly equipment in favor of L1011's.

Yeah....right.

Thanks---Donkey Duke :cool: :cool:

[The Guvnor]

Donkey Duke - if you knew anything about airline (or even business) economics you'd be aware that reducing your fixed (overhead) costs as far as possible is the name of the game. Don't worry too much about the direct operating costs - but if you've got aircraft parked, I'd rather it was fully amortised L1011s than A330s costing over US$1m a month - each! :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes:

In fact, with the price of fuel so low, an L1011 has a lower cost per seat than an A330.

So how's that? :D :cool:

[SFly]

Yeah, well, nobody cares.

We are talking about the fate of JMC's A330s, not L1011's. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Back to the topic . . . Carry on!

SFly

[The Guvnor]

By sheer coincidence, JMC sold their four 393 seater L1011-100s today, for far less than the rental of a single A330 for one month.

Sure, they need some doing on them - but at a comparatively minor cost. Obsession with operating the brightest, shiniest, newest toys (plus trying to merge a shell-suit operation with a quality one) has brought JMC to the point it's at today. A similar reason (the brightest, shiniest kit bit) is apparently the principal cause of BWA's downfall as well - in other words, when the cash stops coming in, there's still a massive outflow required to cover the bills.

The lesson is - stick with older kit. It's cheaper in the long run - and you know it makes sense! :D :eek: :D

[ex-amm]

Yes, Guvnor, you seem to have all the answers. Remind me, just how many aircraft do you have flying?

[LAVDUMPER]

Hey Guv,

I agree with your depreciation cost comparison between the new A330s and older, but still flyable L-1011s (I like the L15s). Some carriers continue to use Tristars effectively - I believe Air Transat still uses them - and it will fill them now that C3 is gone.

Still no word on Novair from you - are they bust? Are the A330s VG Airlines will use being wet-leased from Novair (i.e., Novair crews)? What's the word with Novair, Guv?


Cheers

[The Guvnor]

LAVDUMPER - not sure what's happening with Novair; heard that they were having a few problems but nothing concrete.

VG Airlines and its viability has taken a huge battering in my eyes today:

Freddy Van Gaever announced today, during a press conference, that VG AIRLINES will start services beginning February 2002 with flights from Brussels to destinations in Europe to get his airline known among the consumer market. VG Airlines hope to start the first transatlantic services to the USA on the 1st March, with Boston as the first destination which will also be the airline's official inaugural flight [I assume therefore that the 'flights to destinations in Europe' will simply be training/PR flights].

As Van Gaever still doesn't have an AOC he expects that this wouldn't be such a gigant problem. The government demands that when you want to start an airline you need to have a businessplan before you can receive an AOC. Van Gaever still did not succeed to buy off the ex-Sabena AOC. Van Gaever has his doubts about the necessaty to have a businessplan as nobody who starts an airline can predict how many passengers an airline will carry the next year. Van Gaever told the press that: "businessplans are for people who not know their market and who are not sure about, believe and conviced in their own goals and targets. Setting up a businessplan costs millions of francs; wasted money."

No businessman with an ounce of intelligence should ever say that a business plan is pointless - that establishes your goals, your financial targets and requirements in the form of a budget, personnel requirements, marketing strategies etc. An airline business plan (and I've written a few!) can run to several hundred pages including detailed financial projections.

Under JAR, an airline requires two bits of paper to operate: the Air Operator's Certificate (AOC) which is clearance from your aviation authorities that you're technically and operationally competent to fly the aircraft (ie that you have the correct manuals written, operational infrastructure, quality controls etc). The other is the Operating Licence (OL), which gives financial fitness clearance. To obtain this, you must submit to the airworthiness authority's economic regulation department a detailed business plan and proof of sufficient cash to (in the UK at any rate) cover three months operating expenses assuming nil income.

Here in the UK, this is a 6 to 9 month process.

Once he has those two documents - and only once he has them - he can apply for a DOT402 which allows him to operate to the States. This is another fairly lengthy process, taking several months.

In addition, if he thinks he's going to get SN's AOC and OL, he's smoking something! Those documents are strictly non transferable; the only way he could get them would be to buy SN and make an arrangement with its creditors.

I'd say his chances of being operational by March - based on what I've read here - are nil. Zip. Zero. Nada. Nichevo.

Incidentally, American Trans Air are also intending to keep flying their L15s for at least another 5 - 7 years; as are Air Luxor in Portugal. It's a lovely aircraft - probably the best designed and built one ever.

[Donkey Duke]

There goes GUV again, out of touch with reality. Hello??? Lease rates now on fairly new airplanes that are parked in the desert are a lot less than pre 9-11, so picking up a nice new "toy" that sparkles
makes sense-----as long as you have enough capital behind it. Passengers like new and shiny planes. Am I right GUV? Why did JetBlue go after new A320's? Volume discounts with Airbus. But, they could have done the same thing with ILFC or GATX with some cheaper used 737-400's etc. That's what you would have done, wouldn't you GUV?
Go for cheap. PAX satisfaction NOT guaranteed. Maybe JMC could not get out of their high lease rates, and they should get rid of their pair of A330's for the time being---hopefully without an exit fee. But, I am sure they could find some more A330's
available pronto. A330's are perfect planes for long range high density charters. (Alot
more economical than JMC's old DC10's-----that's right GUV!!!You're wrong!---get over it) (Wut wut??)

I hope JMC can keep or eventually replace their current A330's with some cheaper ones.
And to my buddy GUV, it is possible to fly nice new planes with affordable leases---especially in bad times. It doesn't take an economics degree to figure that out, now does it---GUV? What? You're wrong.

Thanks. Donkey Duke :cool: :cool:

[yellowdog]

Guv,
It's all very well having ageing aircraft plying the longhaul rotes, but passengers don't like it and vote with their feet.
Sadly, after flying thousands on sectors on L1011's and DC10's, even the old Cale passengers, who weren't all shellsuiters, complained like mad at 48 hr delays, no IFE, ceiling panels falling down, tatty tired cabins.
Passengers and therefore tour operators like new airplanes, so although it might make economic sense to try and keep those L1011 in the sky, realistically the move to go to A330's might be the better option.
Perhaps I might still be in tartan if Cale had made that move a few years ago rather than losing all pax confidence with tired, tech aircraft. :(

[The Guvnor]

Donkey Duke - whilst it is true that new leases are available at remarkably cheap rates, I somehow don't think that JMC (or very few other airlines) are currently adding aircraft, do you? :rolleyes:

As for trying to return existing aircraft to take advantage of better deals - are you smoking something? :eek: What lessor is going to want to take back aircraft in the present climate - when they would have to lease them out again for less than they are getting at the moment? Why do you think BA (and VS) parked their 747 classics rather than their -400s?

Good grief! :rolleyes:

yellowdog - the problem with Cale was that its Technical Director, a certain Mr Bradbury, didn't like the L1011s - so refused to spend anything on them. Consequently, they suffered.

Compare them with aircraft from Transat and ATA which have had money spent on new interiors - those aircraft look as good as new - and cost under 10% of the price of an A330 or 767.

If you're going to operate older aircraft (or cars, or anything mechanical!), then you just have to spend a bit on coddling them - and on making (and keeping them) looking good. A stitch in time, and all that.

Unfortunately, some people tend to equate cheap to buy with cheap to maintain - and that isn't the case. The business plan for my transatlantic operation which was going to operate L15s from Delta was based around buying runout aircraft for next to nothing and spending a fraction of the money we'd have spent on 767s or similar modern aircraft on D checks and brand new interiors that would have had the aircraft looking like 777s.

[763 jock]

Guv, you are indeed privileged to have foreseen Sept 11. My beloved industry is in crisis and all you ever do is take cheap shots at it's sad demise. When your 44 L1011s arrive (happiness is a warm L1011) all PPruners will no doubt be beating your door down for a job. You are talking cr@p as usual. PLEASE EITHER PUT UP OR SHUT UP. :mad:

[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: 763 jock ]

[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: 763 jock ]

[G-MANN]

Since when did JMC have L1011's??

I thought they had DC10'S !!!

[Donkey Duke]

GUV,

Those L15's you were talking about from Delta were pieces of sh!t. How do I know?
I've been on them MANY MANY times. Very unreliable. They were always breaking down.
The pilots liked them, but everyone else hated them. And you wanted to buy them? Hey, I've got a bridge for sale if you are interested........sheesh!

Back to JMC and the A330's. I am sure JMC
could pressure the leasing companies for some cheaper leases--and if they say no---just go bankrupt and no one gets any money
and the planes are parked. That will teach them! And, of course, it was the pilots'
fault. Yeah GUV, I knew that's what you thought.

Thanks. Donkey Duke
:cool: :cool: :cool:

Contact Departure!

[WenWe]

Guvnor - you are talking b****x about B.Bradbury. The reason for the lack of investment in the Caly L1011's was down to the owners of Caly pre Carlson.

[Montt]

Guv is wrong when stating the aircraft that has the lowest lease rate is the cheapest.

In fact in times of crisis like we have now the aircraft that get the jobs are the aircraft with the lowest direct operating costs, and that is not the DC-10's or the L1011's.

And as from a ceratin threshold, say 250-300 hours per month, the newer aircraft with the higher lease rate will always come out cheaper per seat/hour, an advantage which comes on top of the all important higher reliability and of the more attractive interiors of the newer aircraft.

Of course, GUV must be far off in his aircraft comparisons and conclusions for as long as he keeps estimating A330 lease rates at around US 1Mio per month.

Beware of the quality of his basic data and hence of the quality of his judgment.

[irish laddie]

what are snack boxes anyway! :eek: :eek: :rolleyes: :cool: :p :confused:

[Buster the Bear]

Snack boxes are smaller than picnic baskets...(Yum yum)...and lunch boxes!

Def no frills!

[Flight Safety]

An A330-200 would lease in the $800,000 per month range in the current market. Maybe a little less.

[The Guvnor]

Montt - I agree with you about overall costs per seat favouring new (expensive) aircraft once a certain threshold of utilisation has been reached (usually around 300 hours).

However, with the cheap aircraft, you can afford to buy or lease several for the cost of one new aircraft. This means you can operate a number of flights at the same time to different destinations carrying multiples of passengers - something you can't do with a single aircraft.

In addition, the older aircraft have much lower guaranteed monthly utilisation requirements - our business plan for the L1011s called for 150 - 200!

Donkey Duke - try reading my last post again, s l o w l y this time. I'm sure you'll get it.

Eventually. :rolleyes:

[Denzil]

Hey Guv did you get the JMC L10's in the end??? A bit of TLC required on those babies (unless they had a "quality" Cambridge intercheck recently)!!!

[The Guvnor]

Denzil - nope, we came second in the bidding process. Pity really, coz we had lots of work lined up for them!

And yes you're right - Inter Check 2s due on all four (with Inter Check 4s due on all within 18 months or less). We did, however, Have A Plan!! ;)

[Psr777]

Good to see old "Trixie" flying again, was a really good aircraft to work on - when they were working that is!! The L1011's have to be the roomiest plane I have worked on to date, this includes the 777

(The Cally Tristars had no centre hat racks, so it felt really big!)
I've just heard that JMC will be operating the A330's to Canada next year.

Quote:
" A seat only specialist has moved to fill the gap left by the collapse of Canada 3000 by contracting 100,000 seats for next summer.

The Airline Seat Company which operates the Canada Flights & Holidays brand, will run 14 flights a week to Canada from LGW, MAN, BHX and GLA.

The operator has contracted Airtours International to serve Toronto, Ottawa, Halifax and Montreal with an Airbus A330.

Jmc Airlines will serve Calgary and Vancouver. The deal is a windfall for JMC, which is due to take delivery of a second A330 in March amid uncertainty over the longhaul market."
:eek: :D :eek: :D :eek: :D

[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: Psr777 ]

[Denzil]

Guv was the winner going to operate them or part them out??

[gotajob4us?]

Guv

just a simple question.

If you are so right that we should all be flying unreliable $hit heaps like yours, - because of the economics, how come the rest of the world,(who operate aircraft successfully, as opposed to dream about it like youself0 arent doing so?

My simple question requires a simple answer Guv. Not another one of your rambling non sensecial monologues about how the rest of the world doesnt know nout.

P.S. I look forward to watching you try to recruit pilots if your pipe dreams, by some fantastic miracle, come to fruition. But I suppose there is always going to be some inept cretin that would be prepared to work for such a Walter Mitty.

[SFly]

The PPRuNe curse of completely separating from the topic at hand has come in to play as usual.

With the Guvnor's inane obsession with out of date aircraft, and other members agreeing or disagreeing, a somewhat interesting topic about the fate of JMC's A330's seems to have turned into a mindless argument about L1011s.

I don't know about the rest of these post-ers, but filling two whole pages with pointless drivel is not my idea of rumours and news.

If L1011s had anything to do with JMC's longhaul plans or the delivery of the second A330 then I could understand. But the aircraft are sold, the fleet is being updated. If you would like to discuss the economics of L1011 operation, why not start a new topic in Aircrew Notices? I'm sure there would be replies. :rolleyes:

Thank you for those few people that are talking about JMC's A330s.
But back to the topic. . .. Here's a little kick-start

When is GOJMB due for delivery? What are the plans for the current one? Are they still planning to base one each at LGW and MAN or is business too slow to operate with that strategy? What are the plans for JMC's longhaul future?

OK. I have given you all a few questions to answer to get back on subject.

I've done my good deed for the day!

None other than,
SFly ;)

[The Guvnor]

Denzil - I don't know; I'm trying to find out at present. Should know early next week.

gotajob4us - a number of airlines are. And a lot more are currently wishing they were.

Sfly - if you read the first page it would appear that G-OJMB will not be arriving and the existing one seems to be about to be returned.

And given too that the crews are rather upset with the unilateral 7.5% paycut - the future of the company itself appears to be in some question.

Now, if they's just stuck with those wonderful L1011s ... :D :D

[Denzil]

Sorry SFly how rude of me, I will start a new topic about the departure of the L1011 from the JMC fleetlist :rolleyes:

[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: Denzil ]

[GOLDEN LION]

You can talk about your shiney toys, You can talk about DOC's and you can talk about the fuel price.
But I am afraid the truth is that providing you offer an acceptable cabin service on a nice looking a/c that can operate on time you will get the work.
It comes down to seat cost to whoever charters the aircraft.
Lease the a/c in during peak times, charge top dollar and give the a/c back in low season.
Then you dont have to lose half your profit from the summer during the winter.
As the thread says at the beginning, you are going to see some nice B742's in the UK market this summer..... and they are being snapped up very fast at a good seat rate. Just watch ?
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

[wysiwyg]

Just to keep the spotters happy - G-OJMB is the first 330, ok.

[Flapskew]

wysiwyg

Thinks A comes before B. MA & MB. What happened to MA?
:eek: :D

[alcoflyer]

Thought both 330's were off to GA Hajj in January? :confused:

[The Guvnor]

G-OJMB is off to GA - after which it will be returned to the lessor.

[unwrapping the aog]

GUVNOR - Talking Arse Again.

G-OJMB doing haj in jan.

G-OJMC fending of demands from airbus to deliver it early.

Canada flights with above aircraft start this week, thursday be precise.
All flights now pretty full longhaul.

No I dont know what happened to MA.

GUV where do you get your info from? on a sunday morning?

I know where I get mine from, the horses mouth so to speak.

And where are these JMC tristars, I beleive they were Calys pieces of crap and gone before JMC started.

You say JMC stands for just might collapse, you could cal your airline JMF. Just Might FLY!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Denzil]

JMC bought the TriStars along with the airline :p

[SFly]

JMC never got involved with the TriStars . . . they were never repainted, re-registered or maintained in temporary storage, and have no real future.

To settle the register controversy (courtesy ofThe Official UK Aircraft Register (http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/aircraftregister/ginfo_dbsearch.asp)), GOJMA was once a Cessna apparantly so that reg is taken. JMC had to start at OJMB and move on from there.

Should you wish to comment about TriStars, why not parooze over to the new topic about this very subject! What a novel idea!

By the way, are the 332s still basing one at Manchester and one at Gatwick as planned?

SFly

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: SFly ]

[bert arbuthnot]

Our glorious non directing director has been told by "his mates" in toulouse that we can go and jump as far as cancellations of the 2nd 330 is concerned. Aparently a contract is a contract ,lest we all forget.null

[ohitsmonday]

OK
Lets get to the facts... Anyone interested??
GUV..Often wondered where you get your info from. Now I know. You just make it up.

The first JMC A330 (GOJMB) is in service, and for the first few months was only ever scheduled for 3 flights a week. The second a/c (GOJMC) is still happening, will be with us in the Spring.
Full flying programs for the Summer for both a/c.
For the record JMC never operated Tristars and the DC10's have been returned to the leasing company.

[GreenTale]

Are the 330s to be swopped for future- 2003-2004 320/321 orders for the group?
When Mr.Borai and Lufthansa have persuaded airbus to accept the return of the 330s will there be contractual fleet redundancies? An easy way to offload the more expensive pilots. <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[beardy]

Sh*tstirring codswallop

[GOLDEN LION]

There may be a full flying program on the A330 at the moment but that doesn't tell the whole story. The a/c can fly all day but if the seat rate it has been sold is pants you are simply flying for peanuts.
The whole Canadian program is running barely at cost to JMC as they picked the work up in desperation. As for your SFB flying.... You will see that drop out of your program in the NY unless bookings pick up. At present JMC cant sell there Florida holidays for toffee. Most of the 3rd party flying JMC have had in the past on there SFB route has gone to the new boys on there B747-200's !!! as advised on an earlier thread.
I know from the horses mouth that if JMC could give the A330 back they would.... but they cant so the next best thing is get it flying at any cost, and that is what they are doing.

,,, As said before, ask the one who knows,,,
<img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> :)

[Hot Rod]

Regarding NOVAIR which was mentioned in some question some time ago in this thread:

NOVAIR is not bust and does not have any more problems (probably less) than any other charter airline today. They still have 2 A330-200 (and 3 B737), one used for charter from Sweden, the other for whatever work comes up. This week it was to Cancun for Air Europe Italy, last week Mombasa and Male for Edelweiss. No pilots has been sacked.

MERRY CHRISTMAS AND A HAPPY NEW YEAR to all of you! <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[PFR]

Golden Lion,
Who exactly is the horses mouth? Are you one of those disgruntled ex `Cal Drivers' per chance, hoping for the company that pays your way to go belly-up!
The 330 may have come at a bad time & maybe tour ops haven't used their abacus properly, but the death cruiser & the trick star were killing us big time - the term haemorrhaging money comes to mind.

....rant over.....PFR
nevertheless Seasons Greetings, well it's the season of good will & all that........

[GOLDEN LION]

PFR

FYI... I am not or have never been an "ex cally driver" disgruntled or not, and I certainly do not wish any company to go belly up.
Obviously I am not going to divulge my sources but it is fair to say that I am in the know at alot higher level than sitting at the pointy end with nothing better to do than gossip.
By your post it is obvious to see that there is still a "them and us" culture at JMC between the ex Cally/FCL guys. Maybe this is where alot of JMC's trouble lies ?????

Also.... dont you let the GUV hear you putting the Tristar down, you will get in alsorts of trouble..
:) :) :)

[ 24 December 2001: Message edited by: Golden Lion ]</p>

[Andy P]

Firstly, thanks to all who have posted replies to my original question.
Picking up on the previous posts from Golden Lion and PFR....whilst the DC10 and L1011 are old and expensive units in terms of DOC's and maintenance, that does not tell the full story. The problem facing JMC, although they are not the only ones, is monthly lease costs and therefore required seat sale rate versus market demand and price tolerance.
In the current climate, those airlines that operate new equipment are on a sticky wicket, because even with renegotiated lease costs these aircraft are stil costing US$650,000 plus per month.
On the other hand, an airline running older aircraft can still do the same job at a fraction of the cost, take EAC,s B747's for example. They can afford to fly those units for a third of the amount of hours that JMC require to fly the A330's just to break even. This leaves alot more time to maintain the older units and still make money.
Obviously, at the time JMC ordered the A330's it seemed a sensible proposition, no one could have foreseen the tragic events of 11 Sept.
The reality now is that whilst airlines still have to run new, expensive aircraft in a market that will no longer sustain the required revenues, the leasing companies still want their bills paid.
The market will pick-up again eventually, but the trick is being able to weather the storm until this happens.......unfortunately, not all will stay afloat, but those with the cheaper units have a better chance.

Happy Xmas all <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[The Guvnor]

New aircraft are like new cars. You go and buy yourself a brand new 5 Series BMW, and you're looking at 20%+ depreciation the moment you drive it out of the showroom. You gain what, exactly? Well, you'll have that new car smell, it will be under warranty (excluding consumables and wear-and-tear items), and you can show off to your mates down the pub.

It still does exactly the same as a 20 year old model of the same car. The new one looks sexier, and it has all those switches, dials and GPS systems that can pinpoint your mother-in-law's house and call down a Tomahawk airstrike. It's also built by robots and designed to fall apart in exactly five years - the marketing boys finally woke up to the fact that building durable cars was bad for sales. The electronics are designed to cease functioning exactly 24 hours after the expiry of the warranty, whereafter your car will spend more time in the workshop than out of it; in the process trebling the manufacturer's profits on the original sale.

The old one, on the other hand, will just keep chugging along. It doesn't look as sexy, and it doesn't have all the electronic gadgets that are the dogs whatsits; sure, it burns a bit of oil and you've replaced a few bits along the way - but it still outpaces most modern cars and carries as many passengers. It needs a bit of care and attention - and doesn't always start first time, especiall if it's wet or on winter mornings. So what if you can't afford to replace it as you'd only get £500 on trade-in ... it still does the job you bought it for when you paid £300 for it three years ago.

Most importantly, it drives like a real car.

[ia1166]

Don't you know any new tunes guv?

[tailscrape]

PFR,

You are quite wrong. GOLDEN LION is I think a pen pushing office sitting Pilot hater. Perhaps a failed pilot?!?

But then again, I am just an ill informed jmc driver aren't I?

An ex Cally office worker who is p'd off.....because his/her life is dull. Get back to Caledonian House and whinge then GOLDEN LION. You do yourself no credit at all.

Let those of us who care try and enjoy working for what I think is intrinsically still a decent company.

And if you have so much info at hand, why don't you spell it out here? Scared to be rumbled????

[Budgie69]

May I propose some sensible applications for Tristars:
1. Supply an aircraft to the Science Museum - they are planning a major revamp.
2. Donate to the ATC
3. Turn into novelty restaurant
4. Fire Service Training
5. Etc. - any imaginative ideas?

What we must avoid is the prospect of these tired old ladies being taken from their grazing meadow and being put back to work. It's just not humane.

[Litebulbs]

Don't let em grind u down Guv, bring the old buckets back, coz i'm runnin short of cash, it being Xmas and all!! I never could fix em, and don't believe anyone who says they could! Wot an MEL though!!

Can't really understand the passion though, coz a autopilot is an autopilot, ain't it?

Still wot do I know, just change litebulbs me!!

All the best for the New Year, and keep the bitchin goin!!

:) :) :)

[sky9]

If the 747 was so good why did BA sell them? They could just have easily kept them on the ground as standby's. They were cheap because there was no market for them at a higher price. All we need now is for fuel prices to harden a couple of dollars then all the "smart" money will have their fingers badly burnt. We must have seen it happen 10 times in the last 20 years.

Compared to a modern twin the 747 burns fuel and costs maintenance time. Long term it is a nono.

[The Guvnor]

Budgie69 - the stately old L10s have a design life far in excess of that of the current crop of birds. And not one design related crash, either!

Litebulbs - yup, none of these black box whotsits that each cost as much as a five bedroomed house in Mayfair; real aircraft those L10s! :)

sky9 - all very true, but I suspect that Stoddart is doing what Air Atlanta have done very successfully - take aircraft that have a few years remaining to their D checks, fly them and chuck them away. There's a good couple of million profit just in the maintenance reserves you don't need - at least it will keep Minardi in F1 for the next season!

The only reason for the price of oil to soom up will be if the current 'policing actions' start to involve the Middle East.

Frankly, if that happens then it's going to be game over for us all - so I wouldn't worry about it! :)

[Mr Angry from Purley]

If JMC wanna use a brand new 330 to a second hand 747 its up to them. Excalibur tried using a clapped out DC10 and look where it got them.

Take away the vertically intergrated Companies
which Holiday Companies are left that can move 400+ pax in a B747 or one of the Guv's mysterious L1011's, and on a regular basis. Not many!.

Don't forget there is a 20 year old rule on Haj's as well so will the ex BA 747's be inside this?.


<img src="mad.gif" border="0">