Buy a turboprop - but which one?

[flyvantage]

We are interested in purchasing a Turboprop for our own company use but also to place on an AOC for charter work when not being used. We usually only have 2 pax and about 320Kg of equipment, some in cases, some loose. Operating from UK to most places in Europe over to about Athens as the farthest, sometimes on rather small airfields. Interested in:
B200 - we currently use these so we know them,
P180 - for it's speed, cabin, etc
PC12 - for the economy of a single and the size of that cargo door!

The single turbine of the PC12 rather limits it on the charter market in UK doesn't it? Any thoughts, recomendations and advice welcome on these or any other a/c options we should consider.

Cheers,

[Doodlebug]

REIMS C406? Will easily keep up with a B200 and has a fairly large door, if you can live with flying unpressurised. Cheaper than the others, too.

[unablereqnavperf]

B200 is the best of both worlds cheap enough to be affordable and clasy enough to get you some charter work.

ps We have one available on our fleet pm me for details. New aircraft 06 model nicly fitted out!

[trafficcontrol]

PC-12 were at the Aero Expo Wycombe air Park this year, and i asked the salesmen about the aircraft... Its not licenced for profitable flying in the UK. Unable to do charter work. I can't remember the examct reasons, but he said it was for busnisses, and rich business men who want to fly their family around...

this is what they told me... might not be true, he was pretty convincing, unlike myself it seems. Just a thought for you maybe if planning on using it for charter work.


TC
sam

[julest]

If you want to operate on an AOC go for the proven route a B200. S/E turbine is a no no on AOC (VFR day only) not too helpful in Northern Europe!
The B200 is a reliable aeroplane with good freight and pax configurations, supported by a number of approved maintenance facilities.

We have a very nice aircraft which may be available from its owner, operated on our AOC and could be bought with a guarenteed revenue.

[Phil Brockwell]

Kingair to Athens seems a bit of a slog, but given your options it's probably the best fit. We run 3 Kingairs and certainly the charter hours are available, but the revenue gained is fairly geared around aircraft of a certain age if you want to service the repayments. CJ2 may be a better options.

[His dudeness]

Not if you need a freight door (CJ2)- which is available also for the B200.

The CJ2 is a good airplane and capable to go to Athens, but only if the winds arent too strong. On the B200 though, as Phil Brockwell mentioned, it can get a bit on edge. BUT Raytheon got the 200GT in the works with a higher cruisespeed and less fuel consumption in higher altitudes if they weren´t lying to me.

The operating cost are not far apart (CJ2 &B200), cant tell for the Avanti nor PC12...

The B200 can get you into places you cant go with the CJ2 - runway performance. IF you buy one, get one that has the Raisbeck mods done or let them be installed. (Cruise performance, rwy performance overall handling)

If you buy a newer B200 with the Collins Proline 21 cockpit youre on par with the CJ2 avionicswise.

Slight advantage B200: 200hrs maintenance intervals instead of 150 hrs (but you need the time for the same routes especially if you fly further)

On shorter hops the Jet way less efficient (speed and mostly fuel), but on longer flights the speed pays off.

So make up your mind what YOUR needs are and then talk to a possible operator and listen what he suggest - tailored to his clients - then decide.


My Background: 4000hrs B200, 1100 hrs CJ2. CRE/CRI for both types.

[Tallguy]

Please check your PM's

[nano404]

Piper Meridian?

[Dimbleby]

Nano404,
A Meridian, 'ure 'avvin a larf !!!!!!!!!!!!
Possibly the worst turbine ever.:ugh:

[HonestoGod]

SET; that is the TBM, PC12 (and the other one) cannot at the moment operate effectively on an AOC, at least here in the UK. This may! change in the near future.

[Fried_Chicken]

Somebody mentioned the C406, how much different is the C425 or C441 to this?

I presume the King Air is more efficient (& available in higher numbers?) than these two. How about the Beech 350?

Fried Chicken

[AlphaWhiskyRomeo]

Not sure how many C406s there are knocking about Europe, at least.

C404s are supposed to be pretty efficient, but run on Avgas which can limit the airfields you can use - especially at night.

Also the PA-42 Cheyennes seem to be nippy and cheap to operate. - If the cabin is sufficient for your needs.

Can't go wrong with a B200 - only move up to a B350 if you need the extra space. And maintenance sites for the B200s are all over the place.

[411A]

If you have the funds available, the Cessna 441 is hard to beat.

Fast (300 knots)
Garrett engines.
Fuel efficient, 75 USG/hr.
Large cabin (max seating including pilot...11)
Known ice equipped.
Long range (coast to coast in the USA, eastbound)
RVSM capable if modified accordingly, and efficient at FL330.
With -10 engines, really nice.

My business partner has one, and finds it fits to a T his rather long range flights to central America (Belize and Panama).

[His dudeness]

well, they are efficient thanks to their Garretts...as a PT6 lover I just cant like the Garrets. But that a personal matter :)
That aside, the thread starter did ask about 3 airplanes that are in production, which is a key point in my opinion. The Cessnas as well as the Cheyenne are out of production for a long time now. At least the Cheyenne seems to have an issue with part availability (thats what I hear from a maintenance technician).Which is not an issue for a 200, with more than 2000 build yet.
flyadvantage, lets face it, if you ask 5 pilots what kite to buy, you´ll get (on average) 7 different answers. Sit down and make up your mind, what your needs are, what the budget is and what destinations you really have to go into. The Avanti is, in turbopropterms, somewhat limited in field lenght. The Raisbeck B200 is about the best you can get in that respect (with a decent payload and range capability
Resale value and insurance costs have to be looked at too.
Maybe its a good idea to involve an expert, a consultant. make sure he is not closely knitted to an operator, sit down, tell him everything he needs to know.
Have fun !

[Spyro1]

the beechcraft 350 is also a good alternative......
fast 300kts
flying high up to 35000ft
great cabin (8passengers) and a great cargo area..
great climbing performances (2500ft/mn up to FL100 then 1500ft/mn up to FL200 then 1000ft/mn up to FL300 at 160kts)

[flyvantage]

Thanks, one and all. Very valid points made. :D It has to be a newer airframe so that rather dismisses the older aircraft types, unfortunately. I have to say from a personal point of view, I am erring towards the B200 range as it is a known quantity to us and from the other comments made. My partner would like a Jet - hence looking at the p180 but some of the operating fields are a bit short.

[flexy]

Falcon 20! 20p purchase, massive door, jobs a goodun!! hehehehe

[boostsnare]

In the past I used to fly the Avanti.
I have recorded 500hrs on it as Capt.
I used to fly both, King Air and P180.
The Piaggio is my favorite, good performances and I remenber the passengers was really happy with it.
And I used to know some jet pilots with P180 preference.

Take care.

[Spyro1]

The only little problem of the avanti is the poor cargo area, if your passengers are carrying big bags, this will be a problem....
You won't have it with Beechcraft.......
If you are looking for a new aircraft....the 350 is still in production and the cockpit is well equipped with Proline 21, with this aircraft you have 85% of the speed of the avanti with all the advantages of the beechcraft family (including landing on short fields....), and the good thing is that both aircraft are more or less at the same price.....

[scooter boy]

"S/E turbine is a no no on AOC (VFR day only) not too helpful in Northern Europe!"

I thought this was the case, so how come I saw a single engined turboprop with a fully uniformed crew of 2 collecting several passengers from my local airport yesterday to fly to another UK destination through WX that did not have a hope of being VFR? Is this the loophole that fractional ownership (rather than charter on an AOC) allows?

Don't get me wrong, I am in favour of SE (turbine) commercial IFR but am just wondering how the rules are being legally circumvented.

SB

[Dimbleby]

Scooter.................. funny that cause I saw exactly the same yesterday from my airport. A twin crew, in uniform, in a single engine turbine with the aircraft owner and his friends onboard!.....and going flying too.

[scooter boy]

Dimbleby, the pax I saw were highly unlikely to be the owners.
SB
:ok:

[hollywood285]

go on then spill the beans.......... was it the spice girls or something evil to affect.??

[Dimbleby]

Scooter..........exactly how could you tell the passengers were not friends of the owner.

If you feel there was something illegal with the operation of the flight you have a moral obligation to report it to the relevant authorities. I presume you have already done this.

[scooter boy]

Not for me to pry Dimbleby - I regard those who tell tales on others to the CAA when there is no safety issue at stake as pretty low on the evolutionary scale, anyway you may be right and I may just have been observing the owners using their aircraft in a legal way.

IMHO there is a difference between (possibly) illegal and downright dangerous and this was only the former, so no moral obligation for me. Let he who has never sinned etc...This is why I have not disclosed any details and will not be doing so.

My post was more of a question as to whether any legal loopholes exist to enable commercial ops with a single engined turbine - i:e large fractional ownership groups.

and no it was not the Spice Girls (close though!)

SB