Drama on First Choice

[strid]

POP-MAN Arrival 19/6/07
Essentially quite a nervous trip. Approx 15 mins into the flight all cabin crew remained seated and the IFE was still off. About 10 more mins passed when the Capt asked for one member of the cabin crew to attend the flight deck, over the pa system all audible waning sounds could be heard. Then the engine noise varied from loud to v quiet and some occasional buffeting was noticed, It was also apparent that at least twice sounds associated with the landing gear being raised and lowered was witnessed. All of this did create for the vast majority a rather stressful period. I reckon it took a good hour for the Capt to announce that the aircraft had a 'computer issue' and it thought we were still on the ground??
He said he'd spoken with centre and they agreed that a divert wasn't required and that we'd now passed Bermuda we were uk to continue with the remainder of the flight across the Atlantic.
Now, i was wondering if anyone else here was/is associated with this trip/flight company and could they verify the event/circumstances.
I also would like to enquire that whilst i fully appreciate that the crew would have been very busy particularly early on, but am i wrong to think that for perhaps an hr with no feed back when it's very apparent that there's some form of issue is not best practice??

[Rainboe]

It's not that certain there was an 'issue' to be handled in the first place. There was 'buffeting'. Maybe a bit of turbulence requiring seat belt signs and hence cabin crew remaining seated and unable to activate IFE? Engine noise varies a lot in every climb when power is changed for level off. It would seem possibly there were problems with a ground/flight microswitch, which were presumably solved as the aerolane went on to make an Atlantic crossing otherwise you wouldn't have got pressurised, but sometimes inexperienced flyers mistake flap noises for gear noises. Probably no feedback because the 'incident' is largely in your mind and the Captain felt he had said all that needed to be said. A non-event perhaps? And this is posted in the wrong place.

[Contacttower]

He said he'd spoken with centre and they agreed that a divert wasn't required


Not in any way accusing you Rainboe of talking down to people but if the Captain had a discussion about diverting then there obviously was an issue and to me the (as SLF and PPL) the sound of gear and flaps sounds very different.

[Topslide6]

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[swh]

maybe hot brakes, drop the wheels to cool them down....max altitudes for raising and lowering the gear, as well as airspeeds limits could fit the description

[flyinthesky]

Why is it that when I go to Tesco/ my bank or anywhere else that uses technology, I do not automatically insist/expect an indepth update, the minute said technology throws a wobbler.

Onboard an aeroplane, everyone is an instant expert. You only have to position down the back incognito to hear some of the funniest comments ever.

I think I can speak for virtually all PROFESSIONAL pilots when I say that we react to each situation seriously and we do not put ourselves at risk (never mind the people down the back) If your flight crew had assessed the situation and elected to continue, then that, in all probability would have been the best course of action.

Believe me, even a minor problem can occupy ones thoughts for an hour easily, perhaps that is why there was no PA. Or perhaps the flight deck didn't think one was needed. It is a nicety but certainly not essential.

[smala01]

There is a rather unpleasant habit on PPRUNE to rubbish SLF contributions as "being ignorant and clearly not knowing what they are talking about"

It’s very clear that this guy was spooked because of some kind of unusual activity on his flight.

It’s also probable that the gear would be cycled with this kind of problem (i.e. plane thinks its on the ground) and that it’s also probable that some passengers would notice that this was unusual.

Of course only the flight crew know how busy they were in the cockpit during that time, but its worth considering that a quick call to the passengers (or via the cabin crew) before this activity could have prevented some un-easy minds.

A calming voice from up front is very reassuring to SLF, regardless of what is actually said in the announcement.

[westie]

Drama on First Choice????
God you guys really take the biscuit. I know this is a rumour mill but try and keep to real life rather than fantasy. Yes I agree maybe a PA should have been made sooner, but without know all the circumstances then I cannot comment. "Maybe hot brakes, maybe he dropped the gear, cabin crew kept seating and oh no, no IFE for the first 15 minutes"
Who knows what was the 'issue' but take it from me at no time was safety compromised and if a divert was considered then it could have been for an awful lots of reasons, not least it was an ETOPS flight and if an instrument was not performing correctly then this would have been a consideration. Honestly guys if you are professional pilots then you would realise that minor technical issues occur very regularly and are dealt with, end of story. A case here of a mountain out of a molehill again i think.

Flyinthesky - Exactly what I have just said.

[sinala1]

Why is it that when I go to Tesco/ my bank or anywhere else that uses technology, I do not automatically insist/expect an indepth update, the minute said technology throws a wobbler.
Onboard an aeroplane, everyone is an instant expert. You only have to position down the back incognito to hear some of the funniest comments ever.

The difference being though that people fear the moment something goes wrong on an aeroplane then their life is at risk (which those of us who are in the industry obviously know is not true). The cash machine doesn't have the ability to go into a "death plunge" - narrowly missing orphanages/nuns pushing prams/brood of ducklings etc etc, requiring heroic pilot action to narrowly avert "disaster".

I think its possibly a little harsh to immediately dismiss peoples desire for knowledge when they are able to come to such dramatic conclusions - which, if the event/timing allowed (obviously), could be easily allayed with a quick reassuring PA. Many times in the cabin have I seen pax behaviour change immediately (eg turbulence) after a quick word from the flight deck - even though practically the exact same words had fallen out of my mouth not 5 seconds earlier. When it comes to safety (ie airworthiness) stuff (incorrectly percieved by pax or otherwise), they love to hear the reassuring words of the flight crew.

edited to say Smala010 has just posted more or less the same thing I am saying, whilst I was typing my post

[General Dread]

It would do some of you pilots good to remember that a mole-hill to the all knowing flight crew is a mountain to some of the SLF down the back who are not expert flyers, maybe nervous flyers, and can’t differentiate between different noises etc. Especially when said SLF are not told what’s going on. A minor event, which some of you may feel doesn’t warrant a PA, might actually be causing quite a bit of panic in the back amongst certain SLF.

All I’m saying is A) spare a thought for the SLF now and again and B) don’t flame SLF who come here with a story to tell.

gricesj grabs his flak jacket and awaits the torrent of abuse that is sure to follow :ugh:

[Contacttower]

It is true that some SLF have a habit of fearing the worse, but that is partly because they don't know much about how a flight is actually conducted. That is why I think PA from the flight deck is very important. Although I agree this does sound like one of the biggest non events I've ever seen on this forum;

"plane thought it was still on ground"

actually sounds quite amusing when one thinks about it.

[smala01]

Honestly guys if you are professional pilots then you would realise that minor technical issues occur very regularly and are dealt with, end of story.

But of course the point here is that the original poster was not a professional pilot and dose not understand about minor technical issues...

end of story

Well, only if you are OK with one of your customers having an unpleasant flying experience and possibly choosing one of your competitors next time he takes a flight.

[flyinthesky]

Smala01

'a tendency to rubbish SLF comments'

Perhaps that is why this website is called the Professional Pilots Rumour Network. You pays your money!!!

If the SLF posted in the SLF forum then perhaps they would get a slightly more gentle response. Fact is that they post in professional forums and cast aspersions on the conduct of the very people whose forum it is. They are not in receipt of all the facts, somtimes do not understand all the facts but are VERY ready to start the stone throwing.

On a slightly more conciliatory note, we do not make a habit of forgetting about our charges seated in the back but have they ever tried an HF phone patch from the carribean back to MAINTROL to work out if they are ETOPS compliant.

Sinala

yes, a few kind stroking words do help, but not at the expense of working through the problem and diverting ones thought train.

gricesj

I agree with you. But is this the right place to post your comments. They have their own forum. Unfortunately ours has been overrun by spotters/SLF to the point of making a professional discussion damn near impossible!

[the_hawk]

Believe me, even a minor problem can occupy ones thoughts for an hour easily, perhaps that is why there was no PA.
No, I as a SLF don't want to accept that. Reminds me too much of Eastern 401 in 1972.

Unfortunately ours has been overrun by spotters/SLF to the point of making a professional discussion damn near impossible!

Hm OK...trying to get a professional aproach to it, I ask: are there SOPs / accepted guidelines as to when (regarding time and graveness of the "problem") a PA shall / should be done ?

[sinala1]

but not at the expense of working through the problem and diverting ones thought train
Agreed, hence why I said
which, if the event/timing allowed (obviously), could be easily allayed with a quick reassuring PA

:ok:

plane thought it was still on ground
PSEU strut issues?

[Contacttower]

I sympathise with airline crew over PA announcements; I have enough mental capacity problems as it is trying to diagnose problems, aviate, navigate, communicate etc in a comparatively simple 40 year old Super Cub, without the trouble of having to constantly tell people that the noise they just heard was nothing to worry about or that the IFE isn't working because I didn't switch it on.

[Dogs_ears_up]

As the Cabin Supervisor, I would consider it as one of my duties to relay information of the mood in the cabin to the Captain, and to suggest communication if I considered it appropriate. In the event that the Flight Crew were too busy, I would seek permission to make a "holding" PA myself, pending a later, more authoritative PA from the Captain. In short, Cabin Crew are part of the team, working in the cabin on behalf of the Captain, and he/she relies on them to handle some aspects of the communication/people duties on his/her behalf.


P.S. This is not a criticsm of the crew involved: I was not there and cannot know - this is merely an observation, intended to clarify a question.

P.P.S. I have been flying long enough to know when is not an appropriate time to be troubling busy Flight Crew with cabin communication issues.

P.P.P.S. This is not an attempt to erode the authority of the Captain, or to exaggerate the role and importance of the Cabin Team

[5711N0205W]

If the SLF posted in the SLF forum then perhaps they would get a slightly more gentle response. Fact is that they post in professional forums and cast aspersions on the conduct of the very people whose forum it is.

flyinthesky if you re read the original post you will see it is of an enquiring nature rather than casting aspersions. Perhaps it is in the wrong forum (whether it should be SLF or Questions is open to debate) but a gentle reminder and redirection for this first time poster is the appropriate response whatever the general feeling.

[Rainboe]

Dogs Ears, you have described a perfectly integrated and efficient crew working practice. Excellent teamwork.

This is casting aspersions, not just 'enquiring':
I also would like to enquire that whilst i fully appreciate that the crew would have been very busy particularly early on, but am i wrong to think that for perhaps an hr with no feed back when it's very apparent that there's some form of issue is not best practice??

The poster obviously got himself into an anxious frame of mind. I know I would not have lowered or raised the gear at unusual times without announcing why. If strid was so nervous about this situation (that may have only mostly existed in his mind), did he enquire of the cabin crew what was going on, rather than just sit there and perhaps expect his possibly private imaginary anxieties be addressed by the Captain? Did he not think if they were continuing, then maybe there might not have been a serious problem? That if they continued on two across the Atlantic, then it was really 'awright'? Or if any such problem had existed, it may have been fixed?

This is a Prof Pilot forum. As stated it is becoming difficult for Prof Pilots to engage in Professional dialogue. Are we to expect every passenger with a beef about his treatment to invade every area where pilots can converse with other pilots? This thread does not belong here- it is making the whole area of professional communication constipated by inanities like this. Pilots cannot communicate with other pilots because of so much dross from people who should not post where they don't belong. This post is one example- he knows it belongs elsewhere.

[the_hawk]

When someones is new to a forum, he will choose the top sub-forum for his first posting in >>50% of all cases (not only PPRuNe, generally speaking). If it is really the problem, Danny should move Questions up front or a new sub-forum "Atrium", "Entry Hall", whatever...

[A Very Civil Pilot]

and that we'd now passed Bermuda

Obvious - Bermuda Triangle, giant squid caught in the landing gear. ;)

[212man]

"plane thought it was still on ground"

Sounds like a management ploy to extend flying duty times! (sure it wasn't an Emirates flight?)

[strid]

Ok guys as you've noticed it seems i've posted in the wrong section and for that i do apologize.
However, yes I'm only a passenger, just the same as the other 200+ on board and all i was trying to figure was exactly what the issue was because it wasn't clear from the flight deck, and that was my main point - a lack of correspondence between the two rather important parties when i feel more would have been beneficial.
I do know the sound diff between gear and flaps and as i could see the wing i knew we were 'clean'.
I also know the diff between engine noise being idle / full on and i dare say the diff between buffeting and turbulence.
As I mentioned in the 1st post - it was the Capt who finally declared that the issue revolved around the aircraft and a pc software fault -and i quote his words, 'it thought it was still on the ground' - he also stated that a divert was also considered at one point??.
Even though i've posted in the wrong section i must say that some of the responses here are a little harsh.
Essentially my points were only as follows:

1. Something did happen - does anyone know exactly what?
2. There was a good proportion of very nervous passengers who on hearing unexpected noises and vibrations start a con effect on the rest, would more correspondence between flight/cabin crew had a soothing effect?

[Topslide6]

For what it's worth, I reckon the vast majority of flight crew are mindful of keeping the passengers fully informed in a non-normal situation.

However, i'm becoming increasingly fed up of hearing that passengers (not all, but the "instant experts" flyinthesky refers to) are, for example, abusing our cabin crew because "you've nearly just killed us all. We've nearly just flown into another aircraft (just the normal 1000' RVSM separation). I've worked at Heathrow for 40 years so I know". :mad::ugh:

Communication between the cabin and the flight deck is very important and it's not simply a case of rubbishing what passengers say, but I wouldn't sit whilst a doctor put a pot on my leg, for example, and say "i'm not entirely sure that's best practice".

This sounds to me like a bit of a non-event and i'm afraid that what a passenger might think is something out of the ordinary is probably not enough to make the pilots put their coffee down. If it is, and the situation dictates, then you will be informed in due course.

If you believe there is a problem raise it wih your cabin crew. Don't post it on a forum under the title "drama on First Choice". If you post in a Professional Pilot's forum with comments like that you are going to get that response i'm
afraid.

Dog_ears, you sound like a very switched on cookie. Well said! :D

edited to say the post below is the extremely well put!!

[Andy_S]

flyinthesky if you re read the original post you will see it is of an enquiring nature rather than casting aspersions
Actually, if you read the original post, aspersions ARE being cast....
Speaking as an SLF myself (and I'll try and be brief and not outstay my welcome), my immediate reaction was that if the original poster recognised the sounds of audible alarms in the cockpit and landing gear being lowered and raised, and was also familiar with crew behaviour, then he/she is clearly not a complete novice when it comes to air travel. As such, if he/she raises questions about the way the supposed incident was handled, then perhaps he/she ought to be prepared for some blunt responses.
Surely a bit of commonsense was all that was needed. If the aircraft was in any real difficulty then a professional pilot is hardly going to carry on regardless. Reference was made to a call to control; I would suggest that the fact such a call took place is evidence that the pilot had the aircraft under full control and did not believe there was any threat to the safety of the passengers and crew. Finally, and most obviously, I don't believe the flight crew want to be involved in an accident any more than the passengers do; if they are happy for the flight to continue then I, for one, would have complete confidence in their judgement.
I'm afraid I'm with Rainboe on this one. If every in-flight technical problem that ever occured was raised on PPRuNe by partially informed passengers, then the site would collapse. These things happen every day, and for the most part are dealt with routinely.
But like I say, I'm SLF myself, so I'd better be on my way.....

[Rainboe]

Couldn't agree more. So strid, whatever minor situation that passed, by your own admission an exlanatory PA was made, there was no 'drama' except apparently in your own mind, and i don't think it fair for you to malign the good name of an excellent operator like First Choice as in your title.

Therefore would you be so kind as to remove this rubbish by pulling up your first post and deleting it- hopefully the whole thread will vanish to that place where our recycled rubbish goes? (India or China maybe).

[wombat13]

My two pennies worth. I fly scheduled more than most, mostly OneWorld (CX).

I made a flight from HK to SIN with CX in July '99 on a 773, when the port engine went to sleep. Not for a minute would I minimise the training and skill that was needed to bring us back to HK (we were about 25 minutes out), but it was the routine way it was treated by all. I had a pretty good idea from the word go that it was a loss of an engine (went quieter and lurched to the left....).

It was quite a while before the guy up front came on the PA, although I can't remember just how long, (p1ssed). When he did come on and explain it, the first thing that came to mind was "get off the PA and fly the bleeding plane".

Can't please all, can you?

The Wombat

[Topslide6]

You might want to take a look here.....

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=232080

;)

[parabellum]

If the seat belt sign was in an Auto position and the air/ground switch was malfunctioning, "aircraft thinks it is on the ground", the seat belt sign wouldn't go off anyway would it? Pilots probably didn't realise this being pre occupied so maybe the CC Chief should have contacted the Flight Deck a bit quicker? Just thoughts, I wasn't there either!

[ajamieson]

when I go to Tesco/ my bank or anywhere else that uses technology, I do not automatically insist/expect an indepth update, the minute said technology throws a wobbler.
Utterly ridiculous analogy.
As the Cabin Supervisor, I would consider it as one of my duties to relay information of the mood in the cabin to the Captain, and to suggest communication if I considered it appropriate. In the event that the Flight Crew were too busy, I would seek permission to make a "holding" PA myself, pending a later, more authoritative PA from the Captain. In short, Cabin Crew are part of the team, working in the cabin on behalf of the Captain, and he/she relies on them to handle some aspects of the communication/people duties on his/her behalf.
P.S. This is not a criticsm of the crew involved: I was not there and cannot know - this is merely an observation, intended to clarify a question.
P.P.S. I have been flying long enough to know when is not an appropriate time to be troubling busy Flight Crew with cabin communication issues.
P.P.P.S. This is not an attempt to erode the authority of the Captain, or to exaggerate the role and importance of the Cabin Team
Dogs_ears_up: :ok::ok::ok:

[niknak]

For what it's worth, in the same situation, I would have an a very good idea that there was something amiss and because I know that it's a very busy time for all the crew, I wouldn't be too concerned, I would accept that they are people who can resolve the problem and would sit back and let them get on with it.

However, the vast majority of passengers are not aviation professionals, they don't know what goes on when something unusual happens and they are entitled to be told something, even if it is a firm announcement from the cabin services director that they are to remain in their seats, a minor technicality is being dealt with and further information will follow.

As a long standing aviation professional and a very regular traveller, it strikes me that the airline operators (NOT the crew) are too reliant on pre recorded safety briefings and there is very little inter personal contact with the SLF.
I know that todays market is all about rush rush rush, make a profit and bugger what the customer thinks, but a little more inter personal contact with the people who provide the custom to airlines would make a big difference in the thinking of passengers perceptions and opinions.

[Atishoo]

:ugh:Rainoe at his usual caring best :ugh:

[hobie]

It's a pity the early response could not have been to simply suggest to 'strid' that his thread be re-posted in a more appropriate forum (it's very simple to do) ...... it may well have stimulated some good discussion in an engineering direction .....

I can't believe some of the banter that goes on does any good to the Heart condition of some of the posters ....... :cool:

[J.O.]

Well said Hobie. Unfortunately, some folks don't seem to have a Heart at all to worry about.

[ISO100]

Rainboe,

In my opinion Rude Arrogant, Patronising Ill-considered, Opinionated, hardly demonstrating a professional attitude on here and the same goes for your followers. No doubt you are proud of it too.

All jumping to conclusions and making judgements without being aware of the facts of the particular case being enquired into. Yet you have the temerity to lambaste the people who pay your salaries for doing exactly the same thing!! You may regard your passengers as idiots but more fool you and I would suggest that if this is what you think of us its time you retired. I for one would not want to place my life in your hands based on what I see in this thread.

Yes the thread should not have been posted here, quite right but you do absolutely nothing to recommend your profession to the PAYING public in the way you point that out.

Yes, I know….. you just couldn’t give a damn, Right….?

[mikehammer]

Dogs Ears, whilst echoing the thoughts of others supporting your post, it strikes me that something is still missing from modern CRM that you felt the need to qualify your point with so much post script. Mind you, from some of the haughtiness here I can see why you might feel the need.

I for one sincerely hope ALL members of the crew have the same attitude as you do.:D

[grimmrad]

"There is a rather unpleasant habit on PPRUNE to rubbish SLF contributions as "being ignorant and clearly not knowing what they are talking about"

Unfortunately this is true and seems to be stated more and more often (but I have also seen often nice replies on similar questions on this forum). Now, I am SLF and in some persons view not even worthy enough of reading this forum. I am a radiologist and do research and fly a lot for that, thus my interest.

As an example from another field - how would YOU feel, if we physicians were standing in front of your chest X-ray and were discussing it (in our lingo) in front of you and you realize that something is wrong? Probably uncomfortable and demanding an explanation quickly, or? Could be just a normal variation or some interesting but irrelevant incidental finding - but you would probably be worried like hell (thats why I do not do that btw). Now, I guess that is similar to what the poster felt, the SLF on whose money much of the industries depends.

Now you can go and delete this post and throw the rotten eggs at me...

[Rainboe]

Yes the thread should not have been posted here, quite right but you do absolutely nothing to recommend your profession to the PAYING public in the way you point that out.
What complete and utter tosh! The great paying public can push off! What part of 'Professional Pilots Rumour Network' don't they understand? This is meant to be primarily a Prof Pilot discussion network, not an 'I had a bad bumpy flight and I want to bitch network' Network. There are Passenger Forums elsewhere to push off to. It's becoming increasingly difficult to carry out a meaningful dialogue here about professional matters without people bitching about suitcases being lost 'and why didn't the Captain talk to me?' as if a full explanation of any incident is due. Any dialogue is swamped by flight simmers pretending to be pilots and aviation enthusiasts getting an oar in. Whilst outside contact is not desired to be limited, there is a limit where any passenger having a beef about something he didn't like on his flight can demand an explanation. So if they are going to put their head in a lions den, don't grumble when it gets bitten. This is a off-duty pilots discussion forum. The welcoming smile comes off with the uniform! Don't expect hospitality. Go to one of the many passenger forums where mutual grumbling can take place. This is not an airline customer service area!

And grimmrad, the customer has chosen to go into the medical common room and start asking questions. He cannot start saying there that any comments made are out of order. Those things are not said in the waiting room, but the medical professionals, in private conversation....no holds barred. Don't go into their area if you don't want to hear plain talk!

[Scimitar]

Cracking post, Rainboe! You just keep on telling them, until at last maybe they'll understand that this really is a forum for professional pilots. I just love it - and don't start mincing words now, will you?

[Topslide6]

grimmrad,

with respect, where does it stop? Are you suggesting that each time the speedbrake is deployed a PA is made to explain the buffeting it causes. Surely not.

ISO100,

I don't for one minute think that rainboe regards all his passengers as idiots. Some maybe, because without question, some of them will be. I think the tone of your post, however, is exactly what pilots who use this forum are becoming increasingly fed up with. You don't pay my salary. My company does. The fact that you might buy 1, 10 or a 100 tickets or year does not convey upon you the right to talk to flight crews in the manner you seem to think is appropriate when discussing professional matters. In fact, the way I hear certain types of passenger talking to cabin crew on an almost daily basis is an absolute disgrace.

If the crew in question were to read this, they surely wouldn't be particularly chuffed to have someone who is in no way qualified to comment, casting aspertions on their professional abilities on a public forum. Whether you, or any other passenger think a PA is appropriate or not is, frankly, not top of the list of priorities in a non-normal situation. Of course crews will do their best to keep the passengers informed. Whether it could have been done differently is to be left to the debrief, and the debrief does not take place here.

edited to say well done to the mod for moving this :D

[grimmrad]

Rainboe and TS6: I can see your points and also tend to agree with it. I usually don't ask questions here but in the few times I did I got one friendly, brief answer that was very welcome and answered everything. Of course questions like "what are actually these little sheets of metal dangling sometimes from the wing..." do not belong here.
However, how difficult is it just to give a brief friendly possible explanation...? Some posters here are right, in my humble opinion, if they state that some arrogant comments about from professionals on non-professionals reflect not too well on a great profession. Rainboe states that "the customer has chosen to go into the 'out of limits room' " only that this forum sort of takes place in the common waiting area - and there those remarks might look out of place. As some poster said an interesting discussion might arise . However if everything is immediately either ridiculed or labeled as stupid etc I wonder who is hijacking the forum. You can always learn, even from unexpected sides!
There once was a physic student who needed a NMR for his thesis. Unfortunately he damaged it and the magnetic field collapsed. Replacement was about 1.5 Mio bucks... Now usually most of us would have given up - not his thesis adviser and this guy. They used the damn thing without magnetic field and created a whole new area with papers in Science and Nature (highest ranking scientific journals). Why I am telling this: as I said, you might get some interesting information getting out of unexpected areas.
Now I will keep quiet as I am not a professional and leave to take the hits.
Regards

edit: glad to see that the forum was moved and not deleted

[Topslide6]

grimmrad,

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Even though it's only allowed on the ground nowadays, I enjoy it when people come and have a look in the flight deck. I think we're pretty much all aware that as well as being pilots, we work in a service industry and dealing with the public is of great importance. However, there are unfortunately some people who seem to arrive an airport, deposit all normal social graces at the gate and turn into instant experts on aviation. I see it at least every other day.

how difficult is it just to give a brief friendly possible explanation...?

It isn't difficult, and like you said many people do. HOWEVER, this thread was started under the title "Drama on First Choice" which then went onto allude to what was seemingly a non event and call into question the crews professionalism.

That is something altogether different.

[strid]

I started this thread and now i wish i hadn't bothered.
It really hits home when those who you kinda idolize......yes the likes of Rainboe, crucify and belittle you for nothing more than an enquiry.
I said sorry for originally posting in the wrong forum. Some seem to think that this was a non event, well I'm sorry but i was on board and something did occur, and when a considerable amount of people gasp, grip and panic then that constitutes the word drama. Never did i ever question the airline or any pilots abilities ( i never would, I'm jealous of your profession) - in fact I would go on to state that in comparison to most of their competitors i think First Choice Airlines is well up the pecking order. My only request was to debate that on this occasion better/quicker conversation between SLF and crew would have calmed many. The whole point of air travel is to get from a-b in a safe manor priority number 1. But it helps and brings us back if it's done comfortably.

[GearDown&Locked]

You don't pay my salary. My company does.

Oh where do I start... well first of all, you professionals keep forgetting that there are people in the back that are there just because they have little or no alternative regarding travel. Most don't even like flying, but they pay for this type of transportation service because they need it.

You were hired by your company to provide a service, a transportation service to be exact. The way your company provides this service to their paying costumers is of their own responsibility. Your company surely has rules that regulate and keep the standard of the advertised quality of its services. Sales in tickets equals money to pay for fuel, plane leases, airport facilities, handling and your own salary. So, bad service means people moving on to the advertised next best thing. I'm sure you would be looking for another job if your company looses costumers due to bad service quality. So, the costumer (you know, the 'cattle' down at the back) is indeed paying your company's fuel, plane lease, and your superior skills to drive the thing.

One of the questions raised by the first poster was about how the information should or not be passed to the users of the service that they have paid in advance (the service you provide on behalf of your company for which you are paid too). Question is, do companies have written in their air crew SOPs how and when relevant information should be passed to their costumers regarding the ongoing quality of the service provided?

If so, please do it as required. If you can't do it because you're too busy working on the problem, let other crew member do it, even if the information given is scarce. I'm sure that a simple 10 secs PA from either you, the supreme being, or the CC would keep the SLF from biting their nails to the elbows. If your company SOP omits this matter, do it anyway, at least as a form of good airmanship.

Sure, SLF are not required to know how a plane works, but if they feel something is not going as usual, the least the service provider could do is to keep their costumers informed with the necessary information at the right moment.

Finally, I'm so totally fed up by these "torch the intruder" posts.
If you want to keep this all to yourself professionals lock it up and throw away the key. As long as its open to public access you have to live with it, and in this case the best advise I can offer is to try keep the good name of your profession. Some of the professionals here could have easily been mistaken by lorry drivers.

[Rainboe]

I reckon it took a good hour for the Capt to announce that the aircraft had a 'computer issue' and it thought we were still on the ground??
He said he'd spoken with centre and they agreed that a divert wasn't required and that we'd now passed Bermuda we were uk to continue with the remainder of the flight across the Atlantic.
Now, i was wondering if anyone else here was/is associated with this trip/flight company and could they verify the event/circumstances.
I also would like to enquire that whilst i fully appreciate that the crew would have been very busy particularly early on, but am i wrong to think that for perhaps an hr with no feed back when it's very apparent that there's some form of issue is not best practice??

From this little saga, it would appear the crew had a lot to handle, then called homebase and established it was OK to continue. You are vague on time, and exactly what happened. There are no guidelines on PA other than to keep passenger contact. The crew would appear to have prioritised things and waited until they had concrete information (OK to proceed). I cannot see they were wanting in anything. Did the cabin crew get queried? Did anybody ask rather than sit there white knuckled? In my oinion you have maligned the professionalism of your crew and identified that crew and the airline. If I was running these airlines and I saw my airline being publicly maligned the way people do here, I would be pursuing those people with a lawyer with big sharp teeth. O'Leary has a point.

You have chosen to come into a public pilot forum and criticise people doing the job to the best of their abilities. That you attract criticism yourself comes with the communication. But I wonder about this trend now of passengers demanding debriefing about individual and identifiable flights, invariably badly affected by misconceptions. It's happening more than every week now, and I think it should stop. I don't like it at all. This First Choice crew would be horrified at what was said, and I hope they don't see this. It's disgraceful, and I will say if anybody talks thus about one of my flights, I will find out who they are and chase them through the courts. Too many people think an anonymous forum makes them invisible and they can imply what they like. It will take a solicitor a day to get you.

[Contacttower]

I hate adding to this thread but honestly Rainboe I think you are blowing this completely out of proportion,

Most of the time it is easy to tell when someone is pretending that they are something they are not (I once heard someone claim on this forum that their landings were bad because the field elevation was misprinted on the approach chart by a few feet) and when it becomes clear the best response is simply to carry on with the discussion and ignore it (a subtle rinsing is so much better than an outright put down). I agree it is wrong to single out individual airlines when you are not in possession of the facts but at the same time good PA announcements are surely part of the job - after all you are in the business of providing a service to a customer. While I see that this sort of thing can be annoying threatening lawsuits and the like is not really needed. I think passengers to an extent do have a right to pass judgment on a flight (this whole forum seems to be about judgements doesn't it?:E) and again to an extent pilots do have to live with this.

I personally would be quite flattered that they took the interest....

[loubylou]

Strid - to be fair, I think what got folk's goat was the way the original post was phrased.
To me it was not a polite enquiry of " what could this be , I found it all a bit scary", but a criticism of how the crew dealt with the issue and a suggestion of how it should have been done better.
Which I would imagine is why folk got upset.
No one minds people asking questions - but the way you phrased yours is not the way ahead:=

louby

[Contacttower]

No one minds people asking questions - but the way you phrased yours is not the way ahead
I agree.:ok:

[Topslide6]

GearDown&locked,

Whilst I appreciate the lecture on business and your appraisal of how flight crew should do their job, I think you've pretty much made my point for me. I can also readily assure you that i'm very conscious of the fact that there are people in the back, but thanks all the same.

Strid,

To be honest, it's not really that it was posted in the wrong forum. At the end of the day that's for the mods to sort out. From a personal point of view, however, it's not that you asked the question, just that i'm not that keen on the thread title or the fact that you chose to identify the exact flight.

Now, i was wondering if anyone else here was/is associated with this trip/flight company and could they verify the event/circumstances.
I also would like to enquire that whilst i fully appreciate that the crew would have been very busy particularly early on, but am i wrong to think that for perhaps an hr with no feed back when it's very apparent that there's some form of issue is not best practice??

Surely you can see it in the above statement?

To re-iterate the point I already made, if there is a non-normal situation on board an aircraft the crew will deal with and prioritise that situation as they have been trained to do. Amongst that is keeping the passengers informed, but it will be done at an appropriate time and in the appropriate manner.

[west lakes]

this is NOT intended to critisise individuals
read it all before going ballistic

I have worked in a service industry, originally nationalised now private, for a long time.
We are regulated, not just on safety, SOP but on quality of customer service & communication with our customers. for the last 5 years all I have dealt with are failures of our system _ when the electricity goes off!
I have to deal with locating the fault, site safety, electrical safety (not killing myself or collegues or customers or members of the public. I am on the street & visible. I am required to keep customers fully informed, my control informed and if needed other authorities.
I don't have checklists, or other members of staff with me to assist/communicate on my behalf. Amongst all this I still have to field calls unrelated to the problem at hand (though usually tell callers to ring later or I will call them back) Oh and still drive a car safely!

The point - our regulator WILL ring affected customers after and confirm we kept them fully & accurately informed of the problem, the solution & the time service would be restored, my employer WILL do the same.
If a customer has a problem/complaint it is up to me to resolve, I can't say write in, fill in a form cos were are judged on the number of written complaints we get!

The regulation is such the utilities companies are "fined" by having income reduced by not meeting targets, e.g.if we don't restore supplies in a set time (18hrs) we have to pay compensation, if customers, and they do, take the view that we have done our best & don't take the money it makes NO DIFFERENCE the requlator fines us them ammounts anyway. This also applies to survey results.
Just think every time you have a delay or an in flight event a proportion of your customers being contacted by say the CAA and your employer to confirm that you communicated properly.
But not that you dealt with the issue/delay correctly.

It is high time the airline industry came in line with providing real customer care (different to service) and stopped hiding behind it's internal issues and industry slang " sorry your flight is delayed by tech issues" does NOT work in the world anymore.

However I appreciate that once in the air communication needs to be well thought through to prevent "panic" but lack of communication can be worse
Also fair to say that, acceptably, some crew would be uncomfortable communicating in this way (some of my collegues are too) but IMHO think the industry needs to sort its act.

[loubylou]

Sorry your flight is delayed because the outer flange sprocket function is compromised in the manual position, and it needs to be repaired before safe flight can be undertaken,
or
Sorry your flight is delayed due to technical reasons!

louby
ps - I do hope that you're not driving your car while fielding phone calls and generally feeling fabulous in your utility ways in the UK as that, I believe, is not only illegal but also very unsafe!

[jimworcs]

Rainboe is disingenuous. This is not a private pilots forum.. otherwise the public would be locked out, as they are for the airline specific threads. The anger and rants by Rainboe are totally disproportionate and frankly, I would prefer not to know if someone who was flying me lost it over such minor issues. In fact, if you look at Rainboe's posts it is clear.. he is an attention seeker and loves to rant. It is laughable the way he says that he is finding it increasingly difficult to have a professional discussion and then spends so much time ranting. I have an idea Rainboe, if you don't like the thread, go to another one and have a professional discussion. The reason you don't is you get off on the rant. Pathetic, rude and childish.

[PPRuNe Radar]

This is not a private pilots forum.

Private pilots means something different in the industry to what you infer. It means guys and gals flying for fun and not for air transport operators. Thus you are correct in more ways than you think.

The prime raison d'etre for PPRuNe is to serve as a conduit for 'professional pilots' in the many different guises that takes. It also serves other industry professionals.

A secondary role is to provide a means for non industry people to interface with the industry. Quite often this will mean that day to day business (which appears to non industry folks as shock horror stories) will get moved to a forum where it is more appropriate. A sleepy backwater if you will .... because to those of us in the industry it is a non event. It may also attract scorn from professionals who see their industry under attack and scrutiny on a regular basis, but also hopefully will see professional people providing the answers to the questions raised.

[redsnail]

I'll have a go. I don't work for a an airline although who I work for runs the largest private airline in the world.

Strid,
On the aeroplanes are things called microswitches. Ironically, they're not that micro. They work not unlike the fridge door switch that turns the light on and off. Occassionally, one or more get stuck and it confuses the aeroplane. This can lead to a variety of problems depending on the type. On the type I fly, it will depressurise the aeroplane. Not a lot of fun at FL380.

As crew, the mantra is "aviate navigate and communicate". Ask any ATCer, when something dramatic occurs, the crew will be fighting fang and claw to keep it flying and going in the right direction. Only once that's happening will the crew get on the radio and declare a mayday or check in with Departures.

We're not being arrogant, we're just prioritising the workload. There's no point in being the best informed pax if the crew sticks it into the ground. Now, a departure can sound a tad weird if you can't get an unrestricted climb but it's nothing to worry about. You don't go driving around with the pedal flat out so that's the same with us.

I know people who pay our wages want to be informed. We don't have a pax door and believe me, they'll tap you on the shoulder if they have a question. However, there's only so much we can say otherwise it just confuses them and thus lead to more questions. This takes us away from our primary task of operating the aircraft safely. There is a fine line between no info and too much. It's an art and one I am still learning.

I hope this helps.

[werbil]

Redsnail - well done - an answer to the original question answered in a professional manner. :ok: It may not be the answer the poster wanted but it did answer some of the questions.

As to some of the others, you need to learn what the word professional means. Some of the arrogance displayed embarrasses me as a professional pilot.

Mind you SLF needs to understand that a warning light or bell is not critical - it is there to bring something to the flight crew's attention. For example when the first low fuel light illuminates there has to be at least an hours fuel left and every time I disconnect the autopilot the horn sounds. If passengers ask I will explain if appropriate but I won't bring the passengers attention to it.

W

BTW I do warn passengers of turbulance and when we are going to pass close to other aircraft so that they dont :mad: themselves too much.

[GearDown&Locked]

I can also readily assure you that i'm very conscious of the fact that there are people in the back, but thanks all the same.

Topslide6,
thank you; I feel so much better now. You bring new and interesting meanings to the buzzword Lo-Co.


redsnail :D
I'm not surprised by the clear and polite contents of your post. You're one of the best industry professional examples I know. If anyone deserves their stripes you're top of the list.

[carbheathot]

When flying for fun(as the Mod puts it) if I hear some odd sounds and feel some strange bumps, I tend to panic a little bit because I am in charge, and then try to remember to fly the aircraft. When I am a paying customer and the same thing happens, I turn up the I-pod volume and sit confident in the fact that the guy or gal up front knows what he/she is doing. I can with a teeny bit of knowledge imagine what is happening if the gear is half unstuck, the hydraulics are leaking or the flat screen cockpit displays are going blank, but I really don't want a P.A. announcement to tell me that.
I buy a ticket to travel, I don't want information.Trust the professionals folks, at 38000 feet they are all you've got anyway.

[flyinthesky]

There is of course a simple answer to stop us all getting our knickers in a twist.

Lock the forum and insist on proof of qualification to gain entry, just leaving spotters/simmers and SLF with an open forum on which they can ask questions and MAYBE receive answers. This is not to belittle anyone with an interest in aviation but it would stop the constant 'oh my god we were soooo close to dying' type posts that come up with increasing regularity.

After all, when I joined the network under a different guise back in '97/98, it was a much more civil sensible place with mostly professional aircrew participating.

It seems that pretty much the only ones not enjoying our caustic comments are the SLF that raise these posts themselves. It sure does brighten up my days off :}:}

Answers on a postcard please.

[west lakes]

Sorry your flight is delayed because the outer flange sprocket function is compromised in the manual position, and it needs to be repaired before safe flight can be undertaken,
or
Sorry your flight is delayed due to technical reasons!



or sorry your flight is delayed owing to an equipment/computer/engine/ etc. failure. We are in the process of repairing it for your safety & comfort!
it's called a judgement call, tech problems too little info, detail of actual component too much - think compromise


ps - I do hope that you're not driving your car while fielding phone calls and generally feeling fabulous in your utility ways in the UK as that, I believe, is not only illegal but also very unsafe!


Normally just when I'm doing some intensive safety related task. Ever heard of hands free? No not the cheapo versions full installed systems with a remote answer button adjacent to steering wheel - similar to PTT on radio.........Totally legal to answer and use, not to make calls from!


I have no problem trusting the proffesionals to do the job they are trained for, solve the problem & ensure my safety. I would (and do) react the same when my skills are questioned by a customer. My only beef is the poor communication and apparent lack of customer care brought about by company policy ......... not individual members of staff. See my earlier post on congestion problems at LHR. I happily thanked crew for their up front info - even though some of it was possibly against company poilicy.

look at it this way. it has been said that the best form of defence is attack. if you get your end of the story in first without being asked and keep people informed (thread on landing speeds where ATC are asking to be informed if pilots can't comply) you WILL have fewer problems Try it it does work.

[redsnail]

G D&L,

I try to do my best. :ok:

[A2QFI]

Looks to me like an emergency of some sort, handled well and professionally up front, and all the DRAMA was down the back in the cheap seats. Nobody died - what's the problem? If you are nervous don't fly!

[grimmrad]

From PPRuNe-Radar:"but also hopefully will see professional people providing the answers to the questions raised."

Thats why I like this forum so much - as I always got good explanations on my honest questions so far and good interesting background info (no, I am not a journalist...).

[grimmrad]

good example of professionalism and courteous answer.

[Atishoo]

ISO 100 WELL DONE...

Its about time someone showed rainboe for what he is.... a bigotted man who learnt to fly a plane. I posted my first post here ages ago regarding a horrible flight back from Cyprus on the very day the helios plane crashed. The flight was really bad, pax were vomitting, and not once did any of the crew or the pilots say a word to us. When the flight got better that crew and pilots had plenty of time to tell us why we were all holding full sick bags, but nothing. i vowed not to fly with that airline again, not for a bumpy ride, no one can help that, but for the pure inconsideration of the crew and pilots towards their pax, who after all DO pay their wages. And if i ever got wind Rainboe was flying my plane id run back up that ramp as fast as i could. Imagine if you got "Pilot Rage" Rainboe's plane would be down in a second.:D

[Rainboe]

Oo get you! A bit temperamental, and with a long memory! Just to save anyone time if they want to have a laugh:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3012958#post3012958
Face it. You saw fit to make severe professionalism criticism of a crew flying you on what sounds like a very difficult day (for you). You are an inexperienced, nervous flyer. Either don't fly if you can't take it or go by train next time, but spare a thought that the crew might have had their hands full, and when it was over, it was over. Exactly what was the problem? Do you need your hand held every time you fly? And get your story straight- your description of the turbulence you were in changed with each posting. And we can do without bizarre references to looking down nether regions, and no, it does not make me sick!
So what does
[lol i mean coffee off the tables bumpy and hold on to the seat arms bumpy, ok ok im a nervous flyer so maybe most ppl wouldnt have flinched. actually mean? That it wasn't that bad? You had what was (to you) a bumpy scary flight, you wanted the pilots to crawl for it. They didn't. You still angry. You get over it.