SAPL Inquiry [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

RENURPP

14th Jun 2007, 07:07

Its a joke isn't it.
Bull**** castle in adelaide grows by the day with over paid HR morons. Their answer is to send out over paid consultants asking why the people doing the real work, (the pilots) don't want to either start working for a mob that underpay, or continue working for NJS/SAPL. That alone should be a sign of the intelligence of the management.
The money they spend on these "consultants"comes from what they don't pay their pilots. NJS/SAPL do not honor commitments in their AWA'S. See the OWS web site :mad:
I would love to see the HR budget including the money spent on HR consultants legal fees and employment consultants. :{:{
Retention beyond 3 yrs is non existant.:ugh:
Bonds:ugh:
Pay for your endorsement:ugh:
Roster issued only 1 week ahead and changes within the week.:ugh:
Based in the most expensive places in Australia (Darwin and Broome) paid crap money. :ugh:
They offered guaranteed jet jobs after 3 yrs but every one knows that the 717 contract is only for 5 yrs anyway, and when you do get your 717 job you go back to B scale wages as an F/O. $59K pa. Now thats a real selling point.:}

KRUSTY 34

14th Jun 2007, 08:49

59K for a 717 F/O!

Holy Sh$T!!!

This company is toast.

boocs

14th Jun 2007, 08:57

And enurpp, could you please confirm that this salary is less than an F/A with NJS? No offence to any NJS cabin crew...

b.

RENURPP

14th Jun 2007, 09:37

SAPL lost another five pilots last week.

Does that tell you something??:\

RENURPP

14th Jun 2007, 09:39

Boocs
Not really.
Current F/A's or CC are on a B scale of sorts as well.
The earlier model F/A's are on a higher base wage, it is still way less than the F/O's base, having said that a large percentage of their $$$ comes from DTA and other allowances.
At the end of the day the CC that have been with the company longer probably have better take home $$$ than the new B scale F/O's.

Captain Muff Diver

14th Jun 2007, 09:49

And you have to pay for your medicals

And you have to pay for your Jepps

And you gotta pay/bond for your endorsement

And you will get paid less than a flight Instructor:ugh:

Icarus2001

14th Jun 2007, 10:30

Apparently they have about 150 pilots with a safety department of 15 all based in Adelaide. Doing what? All the operations are spread around the top end. Adelaide is the quietest part of their network. Weird.

Moniker

14th Jun 2007, 10:35

The safety dept. wouldn't be just for SAPL, would it?

Icarus2001

14th Jun 2007, 10:56

I don't know how it works but I assume it is for the whole group. Even so 15 staff to run a safety department for 150 pilots etc. They must have great morning teas.:)

Private Patjarr

14th Jun 2007, 14:46

"They offered guaranteed jet jobs after 3 yrs"

Just got off the phone to a friend. Apparently that doesnt happen in SAPL.

Can anyone in NJS or SAPL comment on how close the 2 pilot groups are?

AerocatS2A

14th Jun 2007, 17:55

SAPL lost another five pilots last week.

Does that tell you something??

That tells you that the airlines are on a hiring frenzy, and they don't think a NJS B717 job is worth waiting for. Honestly, I don't think any of the guys who have left recently would be staying if the conditions weren't better. That's not to say that they shouldn't be better of course.

The true indicator that people aren't happy are the ones who are leaving who wouldn't otherwise leave. Some of the older guys who came to SAPL for a retirement job but then retire early.

"They offered guaranteed jet jobs after 3 yrs"

Just got off the phone to a friend. Apparently that doesnt happen in SAPL.

Can anyone in NJS or SAPL comment on how close the 2 pilot groups are?
They have nothing to do with each other. There is no movement between the groups to speak of*, and frankly, the vast majority of SAPL pilots wouldn't touch NJS with a ten foot barge pole when they know they can get a job with Jetstar or Virgin. Why would you?

The gripes for each company are mainly unrelated although the ultimate source is the same I guess. NJS has this B scale thing happening and no CPI increases, where as SAPL guys are more concerned about rostering and basings.

The safety department along with engineering, payroll, HR etc are for the whole group.

*Yeah, every year or two an SAPL pilot moves across to NJS but it is very rare. It is easier to get into NJS from SAPL if you resign from SAPL, otherwise SAPL don't release you.

59K for a 717 F/O!

Indeed. Why would an SAPL Dash 8 FO move from say Broome to Darwin to be a 717 FO for almost exactly the same pay?

Moniker

14th Jun 2007, 20:53

So, is the pay for a 717 F/O the same for a BRM or DRW -8 F/O, (given the $10k living allowance for BRM staff)? Any more legs on the SAPL DRW superbase story?

One may consider giving up the luxury of living in a place that has little accommodation for those who need to live there, for the opportunity to live in another place and spend a couple of nights a week in other major capital cities.

Any way you look at it, the parent company not the individual company has one hell of a lot to answer for.

Capt Claret

14th Jun 2007, 22:15

Funny, no, sad really, that they need a consultant to hear what their own staff have been trying to tell them. :ugh:

WynSock

15th Jun 2007, 00:16

I was on the F406 for ages. They let a couple of direct entries go on the dash before me. They flunked. They had a high failure rate for direct entry guys. I wasn't too annoyed though, the 406 is a cool thing.

They used to have a thing in the ops manual about dismissal for .....insubordination. :hmm: Says a little about the quasi-military management.
The call out used to be $75 (work on a day off) . :rolleyes: $$$$$$$$$
When they offered me a dash FO "upgrade" it came with a pay CUT. :eek:Now that really gave me the 5hits.
Even though a command was offered, I resigned.

I would even go back to SA if they just treated pilots with a little respect.
Pay them well, give them time off, have plenty of roster coverage, get seniority up and running, have a career progression. Just take some hints from progressive companies like Boeing, google etc.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/bestcompanies/2007/

These organisations are doing extremely well because (a) they have a great product/service and (b) people really WANT to work there.

There........Consultancy over. That'll be $219,754.21 incl GST.

dodgybrothers

15th Jun 2007, 02:33

I'm also a former employee and have been asked to talk to the consultant. From what I can gather the military d!ckheads have blamed everybody else but themsleves for the rate of attrition and have crawled to customs saying its not their fault now the govt want to know what is the problem because 5 new dhc8s on the way and no crews to crew the existing ones, let alone the new ones.

I loved my job and the people I flew with, there was a sense of achievement that I don't get now flying SLF. The crap all started when the 92 wing dropouts started to treat the staff as conscripts. They were totally unapproachable and were hell bent on making their ideas work no matter the cost. Does anyone remember the ADL ops cell that originally claimed they could run the show with 3 staff? Last I heard they had 15 in there and were still not running it nearly as efficiently as the bases did.

Solid rosters, real callout allowances and overtime and getting rid of that ADL mentality and put the management of the operation where the action is will go a long way to improve the operation generally. Oh and git rid of those military gits.

#1AHRS

15th Jun 2007, 04:55

SAPL offers the most awesome experience to any pilot with very high standards and there are some great people there. Unfortunatly the parent company is a bit tight and money isn't that hot so most move on. But then again its been like that for a while and Customs must know about it and accept it. They could have a solid base of lifers there (old farts like me) that would ultimatly reduce training costs and keep the brain drain down, but for some reason they just keep on training em to leave.

AerocatS2A

15th Jun 2007, 05:56

Solid rosters, real callout allowances and overtime and getting rid of that ADL mentality and put the management of the operation where the action is will go a long way to improve the operation generally. Oh and git rid of those military gits.

The callout is a lot better now, and they get overtime after 70 hours, so there has been progress in some aspects. The rostering could be a lot better (by getting away from reactive crisis management and into realistic forward planning,) but can never have the stability afforded by an RPT operation. The management themselves will remain until the **** really hits the fan.

So, is the pay for a 717 F/O the same for a BRM or DRW -8 F/O, (given the $10k living allowance for BRM staff)? Any more legs on the SAPL DRW superbase story?

As has been posted elsewhere in PPRuNe, the FO base salary is $48500, plus the BRM allowance of $10400 gives a BRM FO $58900. If the 717 FO gets about $59K after they salary sacrifice half of their very marketable endorsement (that they are also bonded for) it's not much of a carrot. Particularly when you consider the SAPL job is secure till about 2020 (provided they can crew it) while the B717 contract is for five years.

Mr. Hat

15th Jun 2007, 05:57

The aircraft cleaners are on more than the 717 effos.......Inquiry over.

Bula

15th Jun 2007, 08:09

These guys crack me up. I got the same phone calls the other week and thought exactly the same. Feel a little sorry for the guys that are left though.
Its qutie simple. Its was a great job with good crews.

Upper management were a bunch of half wits with all the best intentions..... being theirs of course and inept ability to NOT listen to their very own crews and offering half ass solutions to huge problems. Found out first hand when they renegged on agreements for the new AWA claiming "we never offered such things"... tools. But really couldn't care less but like I said, feel sorry for the guys who are left.

Curious........ isn't it.. Or maybe No... There are just better jobs out there now and it will be like this until the airlines stop recruiting, and even then they wont be able to house their crews. Of course nothing will be done about it until all the real estate agents in Broome have not place available 365 days a year (Which has been the last 12 months) and still nothing useful has been done because it costs to much....I wonder how much they loose each and every time a Dash cant fly because they have no crews?

Its like pounding your head against a brick wall... Easier to leave, save the concussion.

Whiskey Oscar Golf

15th Jun 2007, 14:55

Yeah Blackdog I'll bite, and sorry pittsy for getting into it. I saw an article in the West about 2 weeks ago that blamed the majors and the odd minor for their staff drain. My question is what about the staff that leave for no other reason than they hate the middle managers? There have been a few Pittsy. Maybe even where you're at, even last week?

I spoke to a current employee on the phone today who was asked to do the survey with the highly paid smokescreen and their response was "no they already know whats wrong, they just can't accept they are clowns". Good luck to them and the company it's a good job and they do good things.

Blackdog320

15th Jun 2007, 20:33

Whiskey, thats very placid of you mate. Shes obviously made you into a good man finally. I know you want the consultants phone call. I've checked my phone 3 times already why won't they call?

illusion

15th Jun 2007, 23:42

http://www.news.com.au:80/business/story/0,23636,21904033-31037,00.html

Whiskey Oscar Golf

16th Jun 2007, 00:52

Nice link Illusion, did you work there? Or do you know me? Blackdog you know I'm a work in progress and I haven't had a call yet either.

BAE146

16th Jun 2007, 01:17

.........such workers were "ego-centric, grandiose, pathological liars with a lack of conscience, remorse and guilt........

Yessiree,................. fits the description perfectly of one recently departed and two present CIA cohort in ADL. :E

Bula

16th Jun 2007, 08:14

Heard that a senior member of operations was told the other day that there are definitly 5 pilots in the near future to leave shortly....

their reply....... we think it will be a max of 3 total.........

Need anyone say more.......

Whiskey Oscar Golf

16th Jun 2007, 13:35

A way they could have saved money would have been to read mine and the other 70 exit reports that outlined the problem very specifically. I always got the feeling they just didn't really care what a mouthy ethnic had to say.

Son of Saddam probably just binned them as disposable opinions. Like their employees. You reap what you sow

Best of luck current crews, some of the best flying and crews I've worked with.

Whitney

16th Jun 2007, 21:51

I believe the consultant was asked the when/why and who questions.

The answers were:

he was asked about 6 weeks before he started the interviews, as there were concerns as to why staff left/and are still leaving/by the new head of SAPL _ DL.

Apparently the report will be furnished within the next couple of months - it should make interesting reading!!

A comment was made that management would rather pay to hear from a consultant what the staff feel, rather than listen to what the staff say themselves! Go figure! :ugh:

I also think that some of the staff criticisms have actually manifested for the poor bloke and he's been able to see for himself why the angst!

RENURPP

19th Jun 2007, 08:08

The Office of Workplace Services (OWS) has widened its legal action against major transport operator National Jet Systems Pty Ltd (NJS), adding claims from another 30 pilots for a further $65,130 in underpayments, OWS Director Mr Nicholas Wilson said today.

The OWS investigation and court action against NJS now alleges that 33 employees have been underpaid, and two of these employees have had duress applied to them to sign AWAs.

“OWS is now taking action in respect of the entitlements of 33 NJS employees to recover a total of more than $70 000 in unpaid wages, and to seek penalties for these underpayments and the two cases of AWA duress,” Mr Wilson said.

The initial court application lodged by OWS on 27 May 2007 alleged the company underpaid three pilots by withholding CPI pay increases due under their pre reform Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs). The underpayments totalled $5,377.31. The initial application also alleged that NJS applied duress to two of those pilots to sign AWAs. OWS seeks full recovery of the underpayments and penalties against the company for both the underpayments and the duress applied to the two employees.

The subsequent application lodged in the Federal Magistrates’ Court in Perth on Friday 15 June 2007, seeks full recovery of underpayments resulting from the employer’s failure to pay the additional 30 pilots a CPI salary increase to which, it is alleged, they were entitled under their existing AWAs. Further penalties are also sought for these underpayments. The OWS is not alleging that duress was applied to these 30 employees.

OWS’ decision to take legal action comes after extensive investigations and numerous opportunities given to NJS to rectify the alleged underpayments and a lack of co-operation from the company.

“All employers must be absolutely clear - OWS will not hesitate to prosecute an employer who refuses to cooperate and /or rectify breaches of workplace relations law,” he said. “Employers risk potentially significant penalties – up to $33 000 per breach of the Workplace Relations Act 1996.”

The Directions Hearing for OWS case against National Jet Systems remains set for 9.00am on 3 July 2007, in the Federal Magistrates’ Court in Perth.

National Jet Systems Pty Ltd is a major national transport operator employing over 800 people providing contracted airline charter, freight and passenger operations to large civil and government organisations in Australasia.

Any employee who considers that they may have been denied their entitlements is encouraged to contact the OWS via the OWS Help Line on 130 724 200 to lodge a claim or visit our website www.ows.gov.au .

“OWS, soon to be the Workplace Ombudsman, is committed to ensuring that the rights and obligations of workers and employers under workplace law are protected, understood and enforced fairly”, said Mr Wilson.

spider331

19th Jun 2007, 08:26

"The initial court application lodged by OWS on 27 May 2007 alleged the company underpaid three pilots by withholding CPI pay increases due under their pre reform Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs). The underpayments totalled $5,377.31. The initial application also alleged that NJS applied duress to two of those pilots to sign AWAs. OWS seeks full recovery of the underpayments and penalties against the company for both the underpayments and the duress applied to the two employees."

With regard to the said NJS pilots. Were they actually NJS pilots or in the SAPL division?

AerocatS2A

19th Jun 2007, 08:30

NJS is not SAPL. SAPL is not a division of NJS. SAPL have had no serious problems with their AWA as far as I'm aware. SAPL have plenty of problems but they are not the same as those at NJS. Renurpp is in danger of taking the light off SAPL's own problems when he hijacks these threads to continue on about NJS.

Icarus2001

19th Jun 2007, 10:46

Perhaps the fact that they share the same management means that what happens to one part of the group could happen in another, same philosophy applies.

Fair to report I would have thought?

RENURPP

19th Jun 2007, 11:34

Thankyou ICARUS, I agree and is exactly the reason I have posted on both the NJS and SAPL threads.

SAPL and NJS senior management are IDENTICAL.

The only difference is the day to day operational and training people, and I understand that SAPL win on both counts in that area.

So if you are considering a position in SAPL consider how the company treat ALL of their employees.

Also remember the engineers and admin staff work for both sections of the company and they are going through exactly what the NJS pilots are going through right now.

now Pitts tell me why prospective employees should not know what sort of people they will be working for??

AerocatS2A

19th Jun 2007, 13:17

Pitts tell me why prospective employees should not know what sort of people they will be working for??
I'm not saying they shouldn't, but it would be best, in my opinion, to let them know the specific problems they may face with the company they'll be working for. By using the SAPL threads to talk about problems specific to NJS, people may become more confused about the relationship between the companies, and the problems specific to SAPL risk getting lost in the noise.

Edit: I'm very interested in what's happening in NJS, and I'm aware that it is an indicator of the senior management's attitude to the whole group. It just seems to dilute SAPL's own issues sometimes, and in my opinion would do better in its own thread (as it has had in the past.)

RENURPP

20th Jun 2007, 01:01

By using the SAPL threads to talk about problems specific to NJS,
Thats where we differ.
The problems belongs to COBHAM Flight Sevices Australia.
The senior management, of all the COBHAM companies, started with the current tactics on pilots several years ago when "Future Bleakness" was touted. (that was the year when management spent all that money buying staff a set of Bino's for xmas, so we could see the light at the end of the tunnel. Lucky they were cheap cause they don't work. The light has pretty well gone out)

They have had a go at engineers, Jet Ex pilots, National Jet Regional Services Pilots and NJS Airline Services. Next Year the Cabin Crew will be taken on.
All new employees including Pilots and CC are employed by a new company. No mention of that by mangement. More than likely some underhanded trick by SAPL/NJSRS/NJSAS/JETEX/FUBILAN etc management. (note it is not only NJS manegement)

SAPL pilots are fairing slightly better at present ONLY because they can't get pilots and current pilots and observers are leaving.
IF that situation changes, an they do find a source of crews for SAPL then watch out. You will be next and it will work some thing like this.
Dash 8 F/O's will be required to sign a new AWA if the accept a command upgrade.
That new AWA will be of a B scale wage. Around 80% of the current salary.
All new employees will be required to sign a similat document.
Paying for training will become the standard, morale will drop, LIKE A BIG FÍNG ROCK.
Your AWA is a 5 year AWA. Watch out after 5 years because guess what. They willscrew you.
So again I say our problems are your problems.
Also remember that COBHAM management are attempting to employ people for SAPL through NJS, second them to SAPL for 3 years with the promise of a "jet" job at the completion of three years!!
So any new pilot to SAPL is potentially a new employee of NJSAS/NJSRS and should be entitled to know what a miserable company they are considering.

Whiskey Oscar Golf

20th Jun 2007, 01:29

As an ex employee and a window licker I am probably not too qualified to speak on this subject, but I can see both sides of the argument. I also stay in close contact with my mates. As to the 3 year jet job, I only know of 2 that got direct transfers. The others had to resign. The senior manager is the same bloke for both once the dame left and the black hand took over the whole shebang.

I don't know what NJS's problems are specifically but I do know that SAPL's are directly related to some milspec middle managers who somehow bamboozle the seniors. Either that or the seniors don't care, and if thats the case then both parties problems are directly related.

SAPL's problems relate to workplace conditions and managers attitude that they own you for life and think you are disposable.They pretend to listen then do the opposite while building empires that do nothing except micro manage badly. That and the high cost of living in certain cities. They are not directly related to dollars. I won't go into the other issues because this is not the forum and it's public.

My questions to the NJS mob would be, are your rosters good? Do managers treat you with respect and appreciate the work you do? Is your main issue dollars and a reduction of conditions?

Either way good luck to both mobs and I'm just glad I don't have to look at spreadsheets showing the relationship between chickens in china and flight hours.

RENURPP

20th Jun 2007, 01:40

Our managers are ex military and have absolutely no idea how to manage or deal with normal people.
The organisation including flight ops/training/HR is dysfunctional.
To put you more in the picture, Adelaide are finding it hard to recruit and retain pilots for SAPL. One of their current tactics is to advertise for pilots within NJS and offer them a positio on a Dash 8 on secondment to SAPL for 3 years.
On completion of the secondment they are promised a position on the jet. Big deal. less pay and F/O position for a contract that possibly expires in less than 5 years!!!
So NJS/SAPL's future are intertwined.
As for the senior management you speak of, my oppinion in he has been given advice to follow the current course of actions and stuff any one who gets in his road, therefore middle management are no game to open their mouth and question him. Thats how they do it in the military isn't it.
Jump, yes sir how high.
He has problems when he tells people to jump and they ask how much $$$
The NJS side has had two excellent middle management people who both were forced to leave because they could think for them selves.

Whiskey Oscar Golf

20th Jun 2007, 02:09

Thanks Mr. Renurrp, what do you think the chances of the seconded pilots getting the jets when currently SAPL's captains cannot go the other way. The other question and it was one our Captains had issue with was seniority. How come you can work with SAPL for 8 years putting in good service then TRY to move across and find yourself at the bottom. Then get told no you can't leave coz we need you here.

If SAPL wanted to keep pilots give them a direct progression path, renumerate accordingly, staff accordingly so you don't burn people out. As to the back enders, start veiwing them as pros, stop hiring people who haven't been in an aircraft before, don't tell them they are disposable and you expect them to be there for 18 months and are "data interpreters", respect experience, give stable rosters. Remove the clowns in another state who haven't done the job and are nowhere near the coalface telling you how to do your job and not trusting you to do the right thing.

Sorry for the rant but I want SAPL to do well and it's sad to hear about whats going on. They can do better.

RENURPP

20th Jun 2007, 02:54

They would probably get the jets as they would be employed by NJS not SAPL, simply seconded.
Would they want to go to the jets.
B scale wage i.e. 80% of current F/O which is considerably less than Dash 8 Captain. Contract expiring, partially pay for endorsement AND bonded on a 717. What use is a 717 endorsement?? Better off on the 146 for job opportunites in the future.
As for current SAPL pilots, I can only imagine how they feel about it.
New bloke off the street, straight in as Captain with guarantee jet job after three years. (guarantee wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on the way they renig on committments though)
The company used to be a great emoployer were the employee's would be pleased to go the extra yard. Well hasn't the recent CEO killed that spirit.

Toolman101

20th Jun 2007, 07:49

Just heard a rumour that the head of HR (P R) has pulled the pin on NJS.

Rats jumping Ship or is it to pay the consultants fees:ok:

Icarus2001

20th Jun 2007, 10:26

Well isn't that how it works...waltz in as the wunderkind HR manager, slash and burn then move on to greener pastures leaving a new patsy to face the federal court in July..."It wasn't me your honour...I have no knowledge of that..."
Either that or a cosy little arrangement with the CEO to be the fall guy and he comes up squeaky clean.

RENURPP

20th Jun 2007, 12:43

He cannot avoid the magistrate. They will summons him!

Zhaadum

22nd Jun 2007, 13:32

Nice to see fair play is alive and well on PPRUNE...not.

My post of last week has been deleted with no PM or anything explaining why. Too close to the truth eh SAPL drones? You will reap what you sow.

Stay away from SAPL. Such a pity the management screws a good operation from afar. The crews are tops, Check and training excepted. (no training you see).

Good luck everyone.

Z:ok:

AerocatS2A

22nd Jun 2007, 14:01

Everyone else managed to get through their training ok Zhaadum :ok:.

I suspect your post may have been deleted because I replied with a personal comment about you. My post was also deleted.

Cheers.

Bula

23rd Jun 2007, 01:00

Aerocat thats where you are wrong dude..... there has been a rather large failure rate of newly employed piston drivers over the last 14 months.......

I think it lies somewhere between a 20 - 30% failure rate at present. A few people need to remember its an islander. Unfortunatly big fish small pond seems to be the norm at present. 160db and 65kts......... fair enough for the higher performance aircraft in the fleet but, generally, people do not need to be rocket scientists. However, If you dont put the work in with the books there is only one person to blame.

Z has a good point... to much checking and not enough training. But it happens in all forms of aviation.... not just SAPL.
piss' me off a little :rolleyes: ...... but thats just me.

AerocatS2A

23rd Jun 2007, 05:18

Aerocat thats where you are wrong dude..... there has been a rather large failure rate of newly employed piston drivers over the last 14 months.......
I think it lies somewhere between a 20 - 30% failure rate at present. Unfortunatly big fish small pond seems to be the norm. A few people need to remember its an islander. 160db and 65kts......... fair enough for the higher performance aircraft in the fleet but, generally, people do not need to be rocket scientists...
I didn't know that Bula. I do know that I am no rocket scientist and found the Islander training quite straight forward.

It's pretty simple. You need to know your F & D limits, the relevent company manuals, the Jepps/AIP, and how to fly the aeroplane. Seriously, if you struggle with the Islander training, there's no way you'll get through the Dash 8 sim, and that's where all the piston drivers are headed in the next few months (unless they get their Jetstar call-up first of course.)

Anyway, I'm really just stirring the Big Z up there.