View Full Version : Are Virgin Flagging out?

21st Nov 2000, 02:38
Heard a rumour that Virgin are planning to use Air Atlanta to do some of their work?
Anyone have any more info?

21st Nov 2000, 04:19
Confirmed. 74-300 to be utilised Jan 2001. Due to advance notice of requirement, Cabin to be 'Virginised' this time.

21st Nov 2000, 11:35
It is actually an Air Atlanta ex-Cathay 747-200 (sister to VCAT and VRUM); it will be in Virgin colours with the same fit and IFE as those two aircraft, with Virgin cabin crew.
The reason it's happening is to cover the period while the Virgin classics' interiors are upgraded to the latest standard in an intensive programme early next year. I expect it will also help ease the disruption as the massive effort to get 7 new 744s in service over the next 18 months gets underway!

blonde moment
21st Nov 2000, 16:46
How is the classic cover on the ramp at LHR?

21st Nov 2000, 18:52
As I understand it Iceland is an EU partner and therefore enjoys EU status as far as labour exchange is concerned.

I do not see any problems as there are no restrictions on European licence holders gaining Icelandic validations.


21st Nov 2000, 19:13
Very few of the Pilot's employed by Air Atlanta are EU citizens and are mainly of U.S. origin.

Totally unacceptable!

What The Hell's It Doing Now?

dallas dude
21st Nov 2000, 20:25

Now you know how the Atlas folks feel about EU citizens taking their flying.

Agree it's unacceptable. So are double standards.


Eric the Red
21st Nov 2000, 20:32
Just to set the record straight, Iceland is not EU but EFTA. More importantly, it is JAR as well. There are no difficulties validating your licence up there.

22nd Nov 2000, 02:19
It's also worth pointing out that, as a member of EFTA (European Free Trade Association) Iceland is a member of what is termed the EEA (European Economic Area). The EEA covers the nations of the EU and EFTA and allows for free movement of labour.

With reference to Air Atlanta's non-european crewmembers, while it is true that they employ a large number of Americans and Aussies (among other nationalities) Atlanta has bases of operation outside of Europe as well as inside, for example Jeddah.

With the application of JARs, Atlanta are employing ever more European nationals. Given that Iceland has a population of less than three hundred thousand people it should also be seen as an encouraging sign that the bigger Atlanta grows, the more non-Icelandic Europeans they will employ.

24th Nov 2000, 16:09
Spotted a VA ad in this week's FI for 747 drivers on 6 and 12 month contracts. Is this connected with this thread, is there something else afoot at Virgin or is it a move to do the natives out of jobs?

17th May 2001, 19:54

I'm afraid you're mistaken old chap...regarding US pilots with Air Atlanta.

I flew the VS fill-ins last summer for AAI and was one of the TWO native Yank 747 pilots in the batch. All the other US passports are ex-pat transplants....UK, BE, NO etc. The only other yanks were still on the Tri-Stars at the time.... Some on the 767 now I believe (not positive)...

What's the problem? Can't get on with Atlas?
Some of us worked our buns off for the JAR credentials, so we could work over here...so kwitcherbellyaching.

[This message has been edited by Kato747 (edited 17 May 2001).]

The Guvnor
17th May 2001, 20:17
Quite right, Dallas Dude - all these (non JAA licence holding) Yanks should be banned from European operations until the playing field can be levelled with regard to the US being allowd to operate wet leases in Europe - but the US doesn't permit anyone else to operate wet leases over there.

Or were you saying something else? :) :) :)

17th May 2001, 20:19
Virg do not provide the flight deck for this operation, Atlanta do - so what is the problem with non EU nationals who have paid for the relevant conversions to their hard-earned licenses.
Perhaps if there were the resources available in the UK, Virg and other UK organisations would not have to go further afield to pull in extra capacity when required. Put up/shut up or go lease one yourself - pay for a UK/JAA AOC train the crews and then sit their waiting for the phone to ring! Please also note that Atlanta (apart from Corsair) are the only wide body high density charter aircraft operators in Europe. So where would you be doing your shopping??

Desk Driver
17th May 2001, 20:44
I wonder what nationality Sunbird Crews are?

You fly em we'll fill em!

18th May 2001, 01:32
Grief Guvnor!
You're a self-proclaimed holder of illegally gained flight crew licences, who claims to have operated all over Africa. Now you're saying that US pilots should be prevented from working over the EU because they don't have local licences? Does this mean that you consider that they should be allowed in if they can buy licences off the back of a lorry like you claim to have done in Africa?

18th May 2001, 01:40
WTHIDN well said!
We all know that this lot are a pain in the butt. They have the lowest remunerated crews in the business and proudly proclaim that not a single cabin crew member is on a permanent contract! ( Though I accept that VS cabin crew may operate it on this ocassion).

18th May 2001, 02:01
Brothers, wherefore all this xenophobia all of a sudden?? Don't recall any complaints back in 1940.

18th May 2001, 02:14
On the VS flight the flightdeck and SCCM is AAI rest is VS.

Tarek Nor
18th May 2001, 06:36

On this contract all the Cabin are VS (except 1 Atlanta Senior), and AFAIK all the Flight Deck are UK, European or Icelandic.



dallas dude
18th May 2001, 06:43
Guvnor (sigh),

My point was..if it's a Virgin product it ought to be a Virgin airplane (or at least crewed by Virgin staff). I've nothing against Atlanta (in fact I've never heard of them) but if you are sold a product with Sir Dick's mug on it you ought to get it, not a Mike Yarwood impersonation.

BA's cargo routes should be flown by BA. Period. This'll upset some of my friends but the big picture here is that if we allow the door to crack open, before long ALL flying will be done by the cheapest resource, just like trainers'(sneakers) are made in the cheapest Country right now. Until there's an accident, of course. But then, the bean counters will be safely behind their desks so what will they care. It's the cost of doing business, right?

In 1940 (strains of Rule Brittannia begin..) the UK Merchant Navy consisted of over 3000 ships with an approximate tonnage of 17.7 MILLION tons. Where is it now? (No, it wasn't all sunk by U boats). It was "re-flagged".
Because someone offered to do it cheaper!

Getting off on a bit of a tangent here but I'm sure you get my drift (pun intended).

By the way, are they still giving out African licences in Jamboree Bags?


18th May 2001, 13:39
Couldn't agree more, dallas dude. This trend to flags of convenience is bad news for flight crews of ALL nations. Look at what it has done for conditions of employment in the maritime world. The net result is that many seafarers are in effect stateless citizens as far as employment goes. Third world salaries for most crew members and if they want to sack you tomorrow morning, you're history. Got a problem with that? Just hire a Liberian or Bahamian legal team.

18th May 2001, 23:18
How come that american companies as well as US pilots are flying all over europe, but at the same time no europian pilots are allowed to fly in US. I say the same as has been said here before, yankee stay home, if you can not accept this on equal bases. You have been welcome in europe so far but where is your hospitality in return? I belive your time is running out. Look at Atlas and Polar.
Unfortunately, things do not go one way only.
It is a question of give and take, not only take !


19th May 2001, 00:14
And now for something completely different;
Some informed commentary. I am very impressed by DALLAS DUDES grasp of history, although at times it does seem a bit myopic. As for THE GUV, why is it okay for the AACS shadow company pilots to operate in the EU/UK/JAA/JAR/ etc, while they hold U.S. licenses? Seems a little bit of a double standard, doesn't it?

"The pilot say there is a crack in the engine, but we take off anyway!"

19th May 2001, 03:18
Those that are interested should take a look at AAI's present and past maintenance history, anyone remember their grounding by the UK CAA in '98?

22nd May 2001, 01:42
Are you a little bitter?
EU????? thats what you get.
In the US it's one country one coin!!!!

22nd May 2001, 11:11
TF-ABA a -200 is parked outside Cargolux' maintenance hangar in Virgin colours.

rgds Rat

22nd May 2001, 11:39

CAA grounding of AAI in '98 had to do with bogus / questionably certificated parts as far as I remember. Caveat emptor! ANY AIRLINE CAN / has been bitten by this stray dog! Overall, their MX is pretty good considering to mix of folks they have on contract.

Was ramp checked at Manston several times post-'98' with NO discrepancies. They paid their dues!

22nd May 2001, 17:13
May be true..... but from the reports that I have received about the recent Haj operation in Nigeria, may well require a second look.

Tarek Nor
23rd May 2001, 02:57

Could it be that you have a bit of an axe to grind ?


23rd May 2001, 08:46
Tarek Nor---
No axe to grind, just the facts. AAI maintenance has been on thin ice for a long time, according to rumours circulating lately. Maybe now (finally) they have their act together, but wouldn't bet the farm.

23rd May 2001, 20:59
VS did this to me last November(subbing air atlanta) who had their right to operate in the UK revoked for some time a couple of years ago.They might well be JAR Ops but they are not in the EC and as such should not be allowed to operate in the EC.Its like DHL using Ireland and Belgium for their AOCs ie two arms two legs ..have a validation..

25th May 2001, 01:37
ocelot you have to brush upp on regulation in the EC and then try to say something. Iceland is not in the EU but like Norway it is in the EEC.

30th May 2001, 00:51

I would be more worried about non-europian companies operating in europe, than rather small operator as Air Atlanta Icelandic. ( Great airline though, in many ways I have to say ) If you look around enroute there are American companies all over the world now in all kind of colours. You name the airline in europe and you will find out that there are more Americans operating there than you care to know. The latest to surprise me, was parking next to Emerates B-747-400 in Hong Kong, just to find out it was Atlas operating for them.

Have you heard of Boooommeerraaang



Harvey SM
30th May 2001, 01:13
VAA have leased the Air Atlanta aircraft simply because they do not have the aircraft to meet the demand. I don't think the pax would be too happy if VS were to canx services due lack of acft. Leasing other acft is common practice with many airlines. As far as I am aware they are JAA ops approved, and TF-ABA is a fine ship. Air Atlanta provides the flight deck (who gives a flying **** what nationality they are) and VS use their own cabin crew along with Air Atlanta using an IFS (I think??)
This operation is only temporary and upon further delivery of their new -400's, the lease with Air Atlanta should soon be phased out.

31st May 2001, 20:19
How many 400's are they getting, does anybody know ?

1st Jun 2001, 19:24
Flugpants, I agree totaly with you,

Noddy Staltern
2nd Jun 2001, 00:06
VS have 6 new -400s arriving this year and one next. They were due to be replacing 4 P&W engined -200s. The -200s are still around though....

2nd Jun 2001, 02:11
Answer originally posted by WTHIDN:
"Very few of the Pilot's employed by Air Atlanta are EU citizens and are
mainly of U.S. origin. Totally unacceptable!"


Been There - Done that! Meaning:
That statement is definitively wrong!!
Right now - we're a bunch of mostly european pilots flying for EXCEL on ex
britannia aircrafts; Me- for example - being an ex Lufthans-Cpt. on Off-Shore
contract $$$$
very few of them are US (only on the Jumbo),
the most of 'em are from continental europe holding EU/JAR-licences under
icelandic endorsement;

If one of you want to do this job instead of us, feel free to apply! ...
meaning to leave Your lovely home & family behind You for half a year or so,
otherwise you are elligable for UK-taxes. And - of course - most of the
contracts are just summer contracts, with some chances of doing pilgrimage flights ex
MAN & LGW in winter;

Soooo - You don't like to do & live like that!?!? SO, DON'T COMPLAIN THEN