View Full Version : 500 S/O's!!!!!!!!!

13th Jun 2007, 03:13
A snippet of info from the Q flight Operations weekly newsletter. The newsletter was left at a gate lounge at T2!!!!

CP Quote from Ondeck;

"Training opportunities expected over the next three years are forecast to be 350 Command and 580 First Officer courses in addition to the recruitment of approximately 500 Second Officers. Given the growth of aircraft, anticipated retirements and subsequent training ripple. This will be an exciting time for promotional opportunities for Qantas Flight Crew".

I wonder if this includes the jet* training numbers as well????????
If it does not, forget jet* and VBLue. Id rather keep my +30K.

Let the games begin...........

13th Jun 2007, 03:57
Didnt happen to mention which pay scale it would be on did it???? ;)

13th Jun 2007, 04:00
I'm led to believe the pay will be at current mainline EBA rates ....


Mud Skipper
13th Jun 2007, 04:06
Heard it all before with this mob, could not find their @ss with both hands behind their backs.

This is purported to be QF numbers but is simply propaganda from CM's office trying to stem the tide of resignations and negativity we have with flight ops and contempt for the board.

Given any option the board will continue to sleep with that little new girl next door called J* and ignore it's obligations at home. Not until the pilot body grows some balls and makes a stand will they garner any respect.

Is it just a coincidence that the cruddy short haul EBA is up for a vote when they come out with this carrot - I think not.

Those few hopefuls - good luck but don't get too excited.
Those voting on the EBA - get a backbone and vote NO!

13th Jun 2007, 04:25
If it is true then many in SH wont be there for their payrise anyway so my NO vote is already in!!:}
Mud Skipper,
I think you will find that the "balls" are needed in the Jetstar court, If there are 500 mainline S/O positions where are the Jetstar F/Os coming from?:ugh:

Good luck to all the new guys!:D

Mr. Hat
13th Jun 2007, 05:22
Mud Skipper, what are the rough stats on those leaving and where are they going?

Do you think there will ever be a day where they will take Direct entry FOs?

13th Jun 2007, 06:51
Can i ask what people would think of my chances, anyone from Qantas like to respond that would be great. I have the min 500 hours command, but haven't flown for a few years (I bet that is an old story for some of you). Hit the 30's bracket now, do you think getting current, QF are going to need to look at people such as myself due to the high demand for crews or are they just going to go for young cadet types.


Capt Kremin
13th Jun 2007, 07:11
Rosselini, here are the official QF figures to last week.

Flight Crew Departures (1 July 2006 to current day)
Death 1
Medical Terminations 13
Retirements 13
Resignations family/business/other reasons 7
Resignations Jetstar 4 (FO's taking command slots)
Resignations Other airlines 8
Resignations RAAF 2

That last line, whilst small, speaks volumes. That does not include the superannuation retirements happening now (fill in number here, probably around 30). In the retirements-other airlines we have one Captain in his mid 40's going to Emirates.

RAAF guys thinking of leaving now are going to have some serious thinking to do. Going to QF as a SO would probably be ok if you could get in at the head of the queue and be on the Certified Agreement. If you are on an AWA, read the fine print very, very carefully; you may find yourself in a situation that a new joiner to Jetstar may be in, which is...

Anyone thinking of a Jetstar FO/cruise FO slot would need their head read, as they will have to take a 50% pay cut in the case of a cruise FO, or a 35% pay cut for an FO, for the privilege of watching their command slot go to a DEC.

Whilst any GA guy looking at a Jetstar slot would not be taking that pay cut, how willing would they be to trust Jetstar management with their career. These turds, along with the JPC, have already screwed the guys employed already; they will have no compunction about doing it to new joiners.

Unless you are perfectly willing to be "flexible", of course.

13th Jun 2007, 08:53
I agree with Capt. Those of us who have watched this disgusting group know that the are lying when their mouthes are open...

We have seen this all before, the only thing that will ensure the recruitment begins is the age demographic of our flight crew....

Having done my yards in GA, I can attest to the desire to get out of it ASAP.

For me I would rather a company like Rex than pitching my lot with J*. They have as little regard for employees as do QF. They are the same breed of aggressive little men. :E

Sonny Hammond
13th Jun 2007, 10:58
Well, the fact that they are talking about planned promotion at the same time acknowledging people leaving speaks volumes.
QF are worried about people leaving, why else would the cp stop managers issuing references?
Actions speak louder than words.

13th Jun 2007, 12:43
Capt Kremin.. do you have the number of pilots on LWOP? I suspect it may be significant!!

Capt Kremin
13th Jun 2007, 21:35
No I don't, sorry.

13th Jun 2007, 22:11
I believe there are about 35 give or take a few on LWOP. Many of these were people who handed in resignations and were then offered LWOP. Many if not all are working for other airlines.

As for the promotional figures, exactly the same was released over 12 months ago. What has happened in the last 12 months? Nothing.

They will need quite a few at the present rate, but believing anything that comes out of management in this group is very much dancing with danger.

engine out
14th Jun 2007, 04:01
Anybody know about an alledged CP forum of airline operators (Qantas, VB, Rex etc) that was meant to have occured a few weeks ago? Alledgedly rumour from the cleaning staffs best friends mum (an ever valuable source of info) the airlines have recognised a shortage of pilots, upto 1800 over the next few years to fill popsitions. Qantas needs 350 pilots over next twelve months and from their current files think there are 250 employable pilots left in the whole of Australia which they will take. This has pissed off most other ailrines as this means they may have a shortfall of appropriate pilots to pick from, especially those willing to pay for jobs if Q hoover them up for free. Sounds like guys should start updating resumes soon with all airlines.

Within Qantas the MOU for transfers to jetstar has been cancelled as they cannot afford to lose staff at the moment, this has been done with AIPA blessing supposedly. Off course this is aviation and nothing is fact until it is parked outside in your colours with the engines turning.

Rudi Zarsoff
14th Jun 2007, 04:03
If QF management are prepared to make these claims, are they also willing to back it up and offer bypass pay to those FO's and SO's that don't get upgraded in the next three years if those forecasts are not met.
"I don't think so Tim".

Cactus Jak
14th Jun 2007, 04:33
I wonder if this means that poor sods like myself who fell off the bottom of the hold file after a couple of years in limbo will get another look in. Or maybe i'm too close to the bottom of the barrel :}

14th Jun 2007, 04:42
engine out,

My CP confirmed to me that a meeting did take place, and it was to discuss the current (from their point of view) crisis.

Of course nothing has been disseminated to the rank and file. Last thing thing they want to admit to is what the rest of us have known for ages! To the best of my knowledge they have no solutions, as he told me that he is not yet convinced that money will fix the problem.

Hellooo... Earth to CP.. Money is the only thing that will fix the problem!!!

They know it of course. They are just too terrified to admit it.

chemical alli
14th Jun 2007, 06:15
if you think you will ever see a 787 in the rat livery think again, they may have orders, but lets just say they will have orange stars on the tail

14th Jun 2007, 06:18
QF, Jetstar, VB, Tiger, Rex etc......

Apparently approx 1700-1800 pilots needed in next 3 years.

14th Jun 2007, 06:29
Could be too late for QL! Rumour is that a considerable amount of QL pilots have had or are soon to be interviewed by DJ. If the rumour is correct it will ensure that QL aircraft are grounded and totally confuse Kumar.

Cant blame the QL pilots, they've been screwed over by the people who need them most NOW.

Oh well:).

14th Jun 2007, 06:32
Hoss, if it's true then that is great! Sad for 'my' airline but it'll serve those short sighted people right.

Hellooo... Earth to CP.. Money is the only thing that will fix the problem!!!

As a former QF Deputy CP has been known to say, it's all about the money. :E

14th Jun 2007, 06:39

Sad but true I'm afraid.

All the major regionals and a good portion of GA are about to be gutted!

Gotta love the new Qantas add and their commitment to regional services.

14th Jun 2007, 07:11
Well, my 500 hours command might be about to pay off in the next year or 2, hope they don't mind that I have been driving a desk the last few years and not a plane.:)

14th Jun 2007, 07:53
Yes Krusty 34 this is the gutting that has been talked about amongst the pilots for a while now, it's interesting how QL listened and responded(very little).......lets see how they react.

To think that DJ wouldn't attempt this on their opposition shows the simplicity of Kumar.

14th Jun 2007, 07:56
if you think you will ever see a 787 in the rat livery think again, they may have orders, but lets just say they will have orange stars on the tail
and you have this on what authority ali?! :hmm:

The Mufti
14th Jun 2007, 08:29
SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok: :ok:

Going Boeing
14th Jun 2007, 08:59
if you think you will ever see a 787 in the rat livery think again, they may have orders, but lets just say they will have orange stars on the tail

If the pilot shortage is as severe as the contributers to this thread state then Jetstar won't have enough pilots to fly the B787. The regional operators are suffering the shortage first with the LCCs (NJS, Tiger, Jetstar & Virgin Blue) following next with QF suffering but likely to attract more pilots because of higher salaries (& better conditions).

Now is the time to be yelling (not just saying), "Show me the money".

swamp monkey
14th Jun 2007, 10:02
Well it will be interesting to see if QL, QF give another chance to those that were deemed "unsuitable" earlier on when times were not so good.

Might be a band-aid solution.

14th Jun 2007, 10:21
I wonder if a 'group opportunity list' may be enough to stop the hemorrhaging in the short to medium term?

There are a few QF drivers who are prepared to jump into the left seat of the A330 in J* for crap pay. That could see the problem solved in the short term. :rolleyes:

Interesting times. The light at the end of the tunnel is looking less and less like an oncoming train! :ok:

14th Jun 2007, 10:26
The train is still coming Keg.

The trick is to see who will jump out of the way in time?

14th Jun 2007, 10:31
Yes right Keg, however GD will never see it that way.
VB have the opportunity of a lifetime here. Encompass all the growth within their own group now!!!!!
That includes embraer, 777 and whatever else that may well be. A career path that would easily surpass what's on offer at QF. (Probably already does!)
Of course that would require management placing a value on their own pilot body.

Mstr Caution
14th Jun 2007, 12:05
Swamp Monkey

It's all supply & demand!

Once considered "uncompetitive" when a glut of applicants exist (post Ansett collapse) can easily change when the supply dries up.

I'm guessing the recruitment centre will accelerate processing applicants post Oct 2007. (just a hunch!!) :8

15th Jun 2007, 02:17

Great to see that your looking out for the Regional Pilots and i thank you for that as management aren't however after being offered the opportunity to progress to J**star with no one progressing and now being offered to progress to mainline (as a trade off for accepting QF Cadets and no one to date progressing) and having to jump through all the hoops again its no wonder the likes of Hoss and Krusty treat QF management as a joke. I fear the Group Opportunity list will be that only ,a list and all the QL pilots know that. Thats why there marching with their feet, their first perferences are overseas or VB not mainline.

Look at the treatment of the Sunstate Pilots. Once a proud airline where no-one wanted to leave QL management have no turned into an outpost with no direction and morale falling daily. Senior Pilots now seriously considering leaving. Would an Opportunity List fix it? NO. Would progression fix it? maybe if it was fair dinkum. Would regional Jets fix it? too late now most QL pilots believe this would be done by NJS or J**star anyway.

Latest QL newsletter states that the latest advertising campaign for pilots (700hrs 250 multi command or co-pilot) was so successful that they are now advertising in NZ. Not long before Dash's parked.

15th Jun 2007, 02:51
f you think you will ever see a 787 in the rat livery think again, they may have orders, but lets just say they will have orange stars on the tail
Yeah, maybe so, but only for x amount of time. Whatever time frame the goons at the top allow for the rapeing of conditions and wages to approx half that of QF, Crap* will be moulded back into the one QF brand, repainted white and red and all employees on different awards through AWA's.

15th Jun 2007, 03:27
Latest news is that J* has scrapped the shrink (psych) tests!

Mr. Hat
15th Jun 2007, 05:51
Yep its going to be on in the next couple of years. Regional are going to start hurting.

max autobrakes
15th Jun 2007, 10:20
Not only is there a looming pilot shortage think about the following,
who trains those pilots? Yes that's right the short sighted mental midgets who control the purse strings are now finding it very difficult to fill all those ground and sim instructor positions to train all those pilots to fly all those nice new shiny aeroplanes.
What was that parable about "Ye shall reap what ye sow" all about again?:}

15th Jun 2007, 11:24
Indeed the adage of what goes around...comes around

The thing airlines are going to be reminded of in the next few years, indeed all industries where the skills base drives operations, is that employees and indeed the better employees are worth the little extra you pay them to stay!

We have had downsizing, rightsizing, retrenchments, re-applications, cost pressures, business risk and sustainable futures thrown in our collective faces for years......

The reality across most of the western economies is that as populations age and retire there are all sorts of issues to be considered from property and equity markets to employment terms and conditions.

Indeed demographically the western world stands poised for changes the likes of which haven't been seen before.

However as to 500 S/O positions at Qantas I will believe it when I see it...:E

15th Jun 2007, 13:03
:p fellas,

does this mean us, and our licences, will soon be in demand

*Big rush of adrenaline*


Going Boeing
16th Jun 2007, 09:22
does this mean us, and our licences, will soon be in demand

Yes, right now.

Being a conspiracy theorist, could QF management have announced the expected 500+ pilot recruits in order to attract those potential applicants who have applied for Virgin Blue, Tiger (even Jetstar) etc. The endorsement paid for by QF, higher salary, better long term options for career and choice of aircraft types, better terms & conditions etc might cause some to withdraw their applications to the LCC's. Management would enjoy watching the opposition squirming as they are unable to crew services. :ouch:

Mr. Hat
16th Jun 2007, 10:11
and you'll only have to wait 10 years to do a take off or landing...

17th Jun 2007, 01:17
and you'll only have to wait 10 years to do a take off or landing...:sad:

Ten is a bit extreme, but if you really need a window seat and can't enjoy the whole ride, then this is not the job for you:cool:

Mr. Hat
17th Jun 2007, 02:19
You're spot on Poto. It's not for me.

17th Jun 2007, 03:18
The endorsement paid for by QF, higher salary, better long term options for career and choice of aircraft types, better terms & conditions etc might cause some to withdraw their applications to the LCC's.

None of those things are necessarily going to happen with the new hire SO's. They could be on a AWA, get paid less, pay for the endorsement, and have a 15 year wait for a command. Given QF's contempt for pilots over the years, I would be betting that the new hire SO will be on a lower rate than the current ones.

If you went to Jetstar you may get paid less initially however you will be a captain alot quicker.

As for Virgin well I think financially if you started at the same time I reckon it may be a better deal overall.

17th Jun 2007, 04:58
Yes Nev. Spot on. Everyone out there considering the options of who is best should really think long and hard about who may provide the best financial position and also career satisfaction.
As for QF, you will rot away as an SO for more than half a decade and in that time you may find yourself on the wrong fleets at the wrong time which means endless blank/reserve lines where you cannot plan anything. There is no career guidance as such, just have your letter of preference in and wait for the taining merry goround to start up. Perhaps you will or wont get an upgrade. (Just like waiting for the sat lotto numbers!) Not that I'm complaining, but particularly now with various options available out there, it is a point worth considering.
Time to command is important as well, because the numbers being thrown around for the complete package at vb and jet* are worthy of thought. In the overall scheme of things you may be better off in the other organisations where commands are alot quicker and financially over time there will be more coin in your piggy bank.

19th Jun 2007, 00:33
It's amazing how management simply stating something like '500 s/o's to be recruited' gets us all positive and excited. I wouldn't believe it though. QF management struggles to work out whats going to happen in the the next bid period, let alone the next year. I would suggest that anyone weighing up employment options exclude projections like this from their considerations. :=

Going Boeing
19th Jun 2007, 00:57
you will rot away as an SO for more than half a decade

My view is that statements like this are overly pessimistic. When you look at the huge increase in aircraft numbers multiplied by the number of pilots required to fly them, then it is obvious that their will be massive career progression. I believe that all existing S/O's who want an F/O position will have one in less than three years and therefore those new hires who get in early will do their F/O upgrade after about three years on line. For International operations this is sufficient time to develop their airline experience and route knowledge prior to doing the upgrade training.

If pilots reject working for Jetstar Intl, then there would probably be even more aircraft flown by pilots that are on reasonable salaries and T & C's. The management would not allow J* aircraft to sit on the ground for lack of pilots.

Bug Smasher Smasher
19th Jun 2007, 01:41
if you think you will ever see a 787 in the rat livery think again, they may have orders, but lets just say they will have orange stars on the tail
Don't be so sure about that.

Where are all these ready made pilots going to materialise from?

2 things to consider: MPL :yuk: and QANTAS Pilot Training School, ie in house cadet training.

VB have the opportunity of a lifetime here. Encompass all the growth within their own group now!!!!!
That includes embraer, 777 and whatever else that may well be. A career path that would easily surpass what's on offer at QF.
Don't be so sure about that either. DJ has their own problems with pilot supply and industrial conditions. Great to see the pilot body standing firm in support of future recruits, QF take note.

you will rot away as an SO for more than half a decade
Sure it's not an ideal place to be but you'll only rot if you let yourself. You can always look at it as the longest, best paid holiday you'll ever have and you'll always be getting closer to bigger and better things. You say potato...

19th Jun 2007, 01:46
You can always look at it as the longest, best paid holiday you'll ever have and you'll always be getting closer to bigger and better things. You say potato...


I have to pay that:ok:

20th Jun 2007, 05:23
Hmmm and hot of the press the addtional 330's for us, pencilled in for later this year or early next. Now going to Jetstar.
Pessimistic, Nah not me.

20th Jun 2007, 06:38
Now WHERE did that one come from..!

23rd Jun 2007, 00:31
you will rot away as an SO for more than half a decade

Hang on, 500 SOs and you reckon they'll all be sitting around for 5 years? Someone even mentioned 10 years. - try 2-3 years, if that.

I'd hardly call being an SO rotting away.

23rd Jun 2007, 04:09
Yeah righto pod. Considering more than 50% of so's on the 400 have now been there for more than half a decade, my initial point remains. Prospective pilots please consider!
As for this training tidal wave, yes perhaps it will happen, although the numbers are very close to those first mentioned by the king when he came to power.
Plenty still waiting for the upgrade wave to come along.
And of course zero info from any managers to any pilot as to when it all may be. (Mental note: must remember to check fall back plan tonight around 8.30!)

23rd Jun 2007, 08:01
"I'd hardly call being an SO rotting away".

well I suppose if your keen to keep your paper work skills sharp well then Id have to agree!!!

23rd Jun 2007, 12:05
any S/O on the 400 who has been there for more than 5 years is still there by choice.

24th Jun 2007, 06:09
Not if they want a mainline fo spot on anything!

25th Jun 2007, 11:13
I need to know what the base salary is for QF 744 and 330 SO. I have all 3 (VB,JQ,QF) offering and need to make the decision. Please no BS just the facts.

25th Jun 2007, 11:34
Hey mate,
wagenet.gov is ur best bet,
find it out down to the cent...
ull find its paid by the hour, so its varied a little, but 1000 hours a year is a pretty good figure to start with :ok: (i think !!)


25th Jun 2007, 11:50
ftrplt any S/O on the 400 who has been there for more than 5 years is still there by choice
Don't think so.. Current mainline F/O slot is running at 7 years.. That's a FACT!

Alameda- money shouldn't be a consideration.. the QF selectors can see straight through you at the interview..

25th Jun 2007, 11:55
Don't think so.. Current mainline F/O slot is running at 7 years.. That's a FACT!


Been in the company less than 8 years, been an F/O about 4 years. Plenty of guys junior to me around as well......

25th Jun 2007, 12:21
Why would any self respecting pilot choose to spend between 5 and 10 years of their career watching? It does not take that long to figure out less than 10 ports.

Sure the money is good, the conditions are great but the job sucks, yes SUCKS with a capital S.

I became a pilot to fly aeroplanes, not to be a clerical voyuer.

There are far more lucrative jobs out there if you want money, if you want to fly then don't pretend, get out there and do it. S/O is at best suitable for 20 year old cadets and min time GA pilots, at worst it is a parking lot for your career and your brain. Remember, most airlines do not recognise s/o time, nor is the endorsement valid for anything other than toilet paper.

p.s. Have been in QF over 5 years and still no chance of mainline F/O slot (finally getting close).
BTW, the 350 commands INCLUDE residuals, i.e. only 160 - 200 new commands.:ugh:

25th Jun 2007, 13:26
Been in the company less than 8 years, been an F/O about 4 years. Plenty of guys junior to me around as well......

WADR i susgest you reread the statement. Just cos you got a slot after 4 years doesn't mean that we did!!.. Mainline F/O slots have not past Seniority 1970 (Check bidbook) which means that there are guys well over 5 years who have not got a chance yet!!

26th Jun 2007, 00:24
Skyscannermoney shouldn't be a consideration.. the QF selectors can see straight through you at the interview..

What's wrong with wanting financial security? I did my QF interview 9 years ago now after 11 years of scrimping and scraping at the bottom of the GA / Regional pay barrel.

When asked directly why I wanted a job with QF my answer truthfully included the fact I would begin to achieve some real money.

engine out
26th Jun 2007, 10:00
Time from SO to FO seems partly pot luck, and partly desire. It took me 12 months at QF from SO to FO and there were 250 SO ahead of me who could of had my slot if they wanted, but they didn't. Why they didn't was not my concern. I can sympathise with guys who joined after me who have taken longer to get FO slots as the company is not expanding but they are not the first people to be stuck in that position and won't be the last. Every person has to make a decision based on what is best for them and just because there expansion when you apply doesnt mean SARS or something similar won't stop it the next day.

I think that things are looking positive, we still get paid to do a job we love, and if you dont love then why do it? There are new planes coming, and plans to shelve other planes have been delayed, therefor there will be more pilots needed. Pretty simple.

27th Jun 2007, 09:27
You are right engine out but the BIG point remains, If you have a choice, one must now think of it very hard as to the merits of QF vs the rest.
To put it in perspective, when I joined QF just over five years ago, mates went to VB, EK and Air Japan.
All have commands now. I still wait for an available mainline fo spot.
I know it's all about timing but the argument that it will return to the good old days of minimum time as an SO might not be true. The advent of Jetstar has, in the short term as a minimum, insured of this.
Also with respect to incoming aircraft orders, keep a good eye on the aircraft dlivery schedule on the qf intrenet and watch for some surprises in the very near future. (If it aint already changed there wrt 330s and 787!!!)

28th Jun 2007, 09:32

first pics of the 787

Going Boeing
28th Jun 2007, 10:07
From some of the responses that I have read on this thread, it appears that some guys are taking a short term view to their career planning. To some the idea of spending a few years as a Second Officer in Qantas is unattractive when there are First Officer jobs available at DJ or JQ - even if they have to pay for their endorsement. This smacks of the "must have it all now" attitude attributed to Gen "Y". Sure getting a job with LCC's may reward you with a much shorter time to command but where do you go after that. Are the relatively large numbers of DJ captains leaving for the sandpit going purely because of the salary and T & C's or is there an element of "I've been a captain on the B737 for years and I'm sick of the "ground-hog day" domestic flying routine - I want to move on and fly a bigger (& technically more modern) aircraft like the B777".

By joining Qantas, there are many options for you to tailor your career to suit your own aims. After your stint as a S/O, taking a F/O position in Short Haul can be very rewarding with a large number of sectors with flying skills becoming honed. A number of guys are then happy to stay in short haul for the rest of their careers but the large majority end up tiring of the short slips, reduced social life whilst away and repetitive nature of SH flying so they elect to return to LH on larger aircraft. Similar choices are made when they elect for command training.

Generally, the pilots who start their airline career with LCC's have to move airlines (often overseas) to have variety throughout their career, whilst those who join Qantas will have many choices while remaining with the same employer and staying in OZ. Long term superannuation benefits are also a plus.

When the B787 is established in mainline, it will be the aircraft of choice for many as the flying will consist of a mixture of domestic, Tasman, Asian regional, long range and ultra long range flying with pilots bidding (something that some LCC's don't have) for the mix of flying that suits them. As it will be the aircraft type used to develop new international routes, the crews will have the opportunity to experience these new destinations with sufficient slip time. Most new routes start with only three flights per week so the slips will be really good.

For a lot of guys the ability to take family members away with them on trips is a perk that helps to keep some balance in their home life. It helps spouses to put up with extended periods without their partner, but is not a practical option in the SH/LCC type of flying. Qantas and AIPA introduced a number of years ago on the B744 a concept called "extended layover patterns". Basically, this involves flying the first half of a London pattern then taking a weeks leave (total of 10 days off) and then completing the rest of the pattern - very popular with spouses who can get the opportunity. Obviously, family demographics limit some participation but for those who can do it the opportunity is "priceless".

As those who know me can testify, I'm not a company man but I thought that it was worth putting some of my thoughts on this thread to provide balance for those who have to make a career decision in the near future.

All the best to those who are about to embark on an airline career. GB

28th Jun 2007, 13:28
Great Post GB...

You didnt by chance give your sector to the S/O this morning did you?
No need to reply if you dont want to.....just trying to do some cunning detective work.:E


29th Jun 2007, 03:08
GB, thanks for the post. I agree with your sentiment, however, what I am trying to highlight to people out there is that the time required to achieve some of those goals (ie upgrades) is extending all the time. And in my view will continue to do so.
76 slots are out this arvo and the lowest? winning bidder is 1908. That means that FO slots on this fleet are now getting further than 6-7 years for some.
And this isn't by choice. It's ok if you sit on the 400 but for those who joined and found themselves on the classic/330/767 in these interim years their pay has been very adversely affected by the continual blanklines/reserve/etc.
All I say is please consider ladies and gents. And I don't believe this is a gen y thing.

Tuner 2
29th Jun 2007, 07:39
"76 slots are out this arvo and the lowest? winning bidder is 1908."

hotnhigh, where did you get this information from? Nothing has been publish on the intranet yet.

Mr. Hat
29th Jun 2007, 07:54
Great Post, Going Boeing.

I do see your point. But I can't help saying that some of the recent practices/publicity from the people right at the top are turning people who would normally apply off all together. It's clear to outsiders that a reduction in T & C's are constantly on the agenda over there in QF land. On top of that, EK and CX fly you over and let you know fairly quickly if you're in or not. No cubes and no active hold for years on end. For many its been an easy decision.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Crusty Demon
29th Jun 2007, 09:10
It seems quite probable that the 73 will be much more junior to the 76 this time round. Personally I know of several 737 f/o's trying to get a 767 slot.

Have you seen the allocations HH?

29th Jun 2007, 10:13
Rumours only.

Most junior command.......1198. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ouch::(:(:(:(

Those that know me will understand why! :ok:

Of course, given that I'm now a fully fledged member of the Chris Manning 'Glass half full' crowd, it could well be things may work out after all.

737 commands went to about mid 1100s.

I don't know anything about F/O slots....sorry lads and ladettes.

Congrats to those that get the nod.

Transition Layer
30th Jun 2007, 04:48
Got a quick look at the slots at sign on yesterday before they were (apparently) taken away again?

Was in a bit of a hurry but did see a 737 F/O (don't know which base) slot go as low as 2010ish - that's approximately 5 years in the company.

Plenty of great guys leaving the -400 (F/Os and S/Os in particular) in the next 6-12 months but I'm sure there will be plenty of new recruits to take up the slack and help carve up the dancefloor at Insomnia!


30th Jun 2007, 06:08
Did anyone happen to see how junior the 330 slots went?

1st Jul 2007, 00:54

Can someone enlighten me, are we facing a shortage here for QF or do people think they will find the 10 to 15 pilots a month over the next 3 yrs that has been mentioned. Could it be a case that they will find the numbers for the next 12 to 18 months, but then it will be hard to find people with the min requirments.

Trying to gauge the situatuion, I have the 500 command hours, but haven't flown for a couple of years, but will be more than happy to get myself current over the next 6 months if the market (especially QF) is going to look at a 800 hour pilot with bush charter time?

Or do QF not look favourably on you if you are not in a current flying position?

Appreciate some positive reponses or help. Thanks

1st Jul 2007, 02:36
Gday oneday_soon,

I joined about 6 years ago and had not been employed as a pilot for almost a year on joining. However I had to convince them that I was still ok and hadnt given up on it. Basically getting a stage one was no problem, then had to field a couple of phone calls to let them know i still had the desire to fly. In addition I was in the sim at BK as much as I could be before the sim ride and interview. Now I did have age on my side but that was when they were hiring like it was no ones business...

Suggestion... get back into it! When it comes to your turn to jump through the hoops, make sureyou are fully prepared for it all, especially the sim and interview!


1st Jul 2007, 03:10
oneday, get current and stick in an application. :ok:

Mr. Hat
1st Jul 2007, 03:12
oneday soon, there isn't a better time for you to get back into it.

Getting a fying job be it parachute scenic charter or whatever will give you back confidence in the game.

A lot can happen in a short space of time. The first step is the hardest

1st Jul 2007, 07:53
From the Australian:
The airline will be the first member of the Qantas Group to get the new Boeing 787 Dreamliner when deliveries start next year and will now get 15 of the 787-8 versions rather than the 12 originally flagged.

Just waiting now for the 'new' info to surface about the 330s.:{

1st Jul 2007, 07:57
Hi all,

What exactly is meant by slots? :confused:

1st Jul 2007, 08:07
hey poly,

'slots' are training / promotional slots. they are issued about this time every year, so those that have bid for a type/rank change wait to see if they have been awarded their choice.


can you give me a link to the entire article please?


1st Jul 2007, 08:33

2nd Jul 2007, 07:55
Training slots are out. There is a link in the mainline section of Qrewroom.

2nd Jul 2007, 07:57
An honest question to the open minded types out there :

From a purely business point of view, why are the b787 deliveries scheduled to go to JQ, bearing in mind :
-JQ Intl pilots are all airbus current
-JQ Domestic is all airbus and as such reduced training costs to transfer to intl
-JQ Intl pax (for the most part) are travelling due to the budget airfare and as such wouldnt mind if they were not on a brand spanking new jet

Im not trying to stir here, and those from both sides who wish to make antagonising replies, please refrain. Im just trying to see the logic here...?


Capt Kremin
2nd Jul 2007, 08:00
Dixon needs to get Jetstar Intl up to a critical mass. Once that is done then the rest of his industrial objectives will be much easier to achieve.

2nd Jul 2007, 08:38
but surely the industrial objectives, whilst personally close to dixons heart, could not be the PRIMARY focus of this business!?!? hes not the only shareholder out there!

Capt Kremin
2nd Jul 2007, 12:37
Any business objective of Jetstar could have been achieved by starting up an offshoot of mainline.

The fact that they went for a "greenfields" operation in the creation of Jetstar was entirely deliberate, and designed to create a means of destroying the unions in mainline.

3rd Jul 2007, 06:08
Keg and OneDotLow, I have sent PM's to you.

4th Jul 2007, 12:19
I know this has been asked before but i have struggled to find the answer.

Would anybody not too far out of the loop be able to give me some idea of what a junior s/o in qf might expect to earn over the first 12 - 18 months.

Having been on the hold file for some time I moved on with my flying career and now find myself with a decision. It's not the only criterea I am basing my decision on, but it would have an impact if it was substantially less than my current situation.

Any PM would be hugely appreciated.

4th Jul 2007, 13:19
1st year around $115....2nd year $145

that includes allowances.:ok:

4th Jul 2007, 14:13
Do the math yourself. The QF Longhaul Award (EBA 7) can be downloaded from www.wagenet.gov.au A search will find it.

You're looking for page B:129 or thereabouts. It's important to have all the facts because the numbers can vary widely depending on what aircraft you're on. If you're joining expecting the numbers quoted by gettoffmyback then you may be in for a shock.

That will tell you that the hourly pay rate for a S/O after check to line is $64.14.

Assuming that things go well (175 hour divisor and 6.5 of them per year) you'll get paid for about 1140 hours minimum. If you 'rotate' on blank lines (and don't do more than minimum hours) then you're looking at about 1080 hours. Do the math yourself and work out how much that means you'll get paid.
On top of that, depending on your allocated aircraft you may (or may not) get access to a truck load of overtime. This too can vary depending on seniority and your aircraft type. A 744 S/O could reasonably expect to do anywhere between 20-40 hours per bid period (6.5 bid periods per annum). If you allow for the fact that you're generally on holidays for half a bid period per annum then you're looking at something between 120 and 240 hours of additional o/t on the 744.

Allowances per annum are going to be about $15-20K.

Therefore (1140+240)x64.14= 88513, Tack on your $15-20K and you'll be looking around the $100-110K mark all up. I was going to say that it would be unusual for a first year pilot to do all bid periods of 175 hours but in recent times I've heard of people doing much higher than that!

First half of the second year is worth $68.63 per hour. Do the math as above and divide by two and you'll get the answer for that six month period.

The second half of your second year is when being on the 744 really starts to pay off with the pay rate on the 744 jumping to $84.77. A330 rate is $80.75.
Third year pay (by now you'll be permanent pattern- most likely- and thus able to be getting toward the top end of that o/t figure) is worth $89.25.

The 'killer' if you end up on the A330 (or classic) is that you won't get access to 120-240 hours of overtime per annum. I don't know the rosters or flight patterns of the bus well enough to tell you how much o/t is likely but it's not in the same league as the 744 so if you work on 'nil' then anything else is a bonus.

If you want to know absolute rock bottom 'minimum wage' then work on about 1016 hours pay and consider anything above that as a bonus. This will consist of three bid periods of 152 hours (min guarantee) and 3.5 bid periods of 160 hour divisors....about as low as we go.

I hope that assists in providing a greater depth of information.

5th Jul 2007, 01:23
Thanks Keg

Check your PM's

5th Jul 2007, 01:59
I see all the new F/Os on the 737 are S/Os from the 744. Giving up 20-50k extra in pay than a 737 F/O to work a whole lot more. Though the window seat is nice.