Monarch T & C's

[Touchin' Down]

Hey all,

Have an interview with Monarch coming up and was hoping that someone was able to tell be a little about what it's like working for the airline, eg. rostering, T & C's etc. What would a typical month involve in terms of flights etc?

Doesn't seem to be a huge amount on the site about the airline which is usually a good thing!!??

Thanks V much in advance.

[Bealzebub]

Hi TD,

Good luck with your interview. There is a lot of information on This (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/factfile.php?id=ug23sc0aqmzz11fcrp3j7wf3beb62arkgehyg3wubjg0 7k0mztv) website which might help.

There are main bases at Luton, Gatwick, Manchester and Birmingham.

Recruitment is initially on to the A320/1, A300 and B757. There are opportunities later for mixed fleet flying on the 757/767 and A320/1/330. Obviously such opportunities depend on many factors but have been occurring within a year or two for some recent joiners.

It is difficult to come up with a typical roster as it varies from fleet to fleet and base to base. You can however expect to be busy particularly on the Airbus fly by wire fleet. The flying is likely to be a mix of schedule service flights to Spain and Portugal and the Canaries, and Inclusive tour flying to all the usual med' destinations. With regards to the latter Summer is obviously busier than winter and rosters of up to 90 hours in 28 days are not unusual at some bases and on certain fleets. Winter tends to be quieter however ad hoc and ski flights supplement the winter sun flying and it can be busier than you might expect.

The company has 6 firm orders in for Boeing 787's with deliveries starting in 2010. Additional options may increase this order eventually to 10 units in the foreseeable future.

A good company with a lot of great people to work with. Terms and conditions were revamped for new joiners a couple of years ago to bring the renumeration into line with market competitors. Obviously from a new employees perspective not for the better, however you read the contract on offer and decide for yourself I guess. Some of the conditions on offer make it easier for a pilot to move on if they feel that is beneficial for them, and this may become something the company has to address in the near future. The old "anchors" of seniority and final salary pension schemes are not ties for new joiners.
Despite this and contrary to what some might tell you, there is not an exodus of previous new joiners and many people make a good career in the company.
It is hard work at times, it can be very frustrating, but that is true of most companies in the same markets and it still remains a good place to work for most people.

If you want any more information just ask either here where you will get more varied replies or by PM ( though the replies may take longer).

[Sphinx]

I would agree with most of what Bealzebub says regarding it being generally a good company to work for and good people. However T's and C's for new joiners fall behind comparable companies - Thomsonfly, First Choice, Thomas Cook etc. And IMHO there is considerable movement in terms of relatively new people leaving.

The pension now is very poor. You contribute 8% to generate a company maximum contribution of 8% and it is a direct contribution scheme. Compare with a final salary scheme available after 5 years at Thomsonfly or between 3.5 and 5% contribution at First Choice to generate a 15% Company contribution.

Also there is a salary cap for new joiners. It occurs after 10 years as an F/O at a level about £9000pa less than people on the old scheme. Hopefully you won't spend 10 years as an FO, but for Captains it also occurs at year 10 and knocks between £7000 and £8000pa off your final salary compared with the old scheme.

As a company and job I would recommend it, but go in with your eyes open. Long term there is a salary cap and poor pension to consider. If you are relatively young it is a great place to get a good type and move on after 3 years experience. By then things may have changed for the better or you might be content with your lot.

Check your PM's for a bit more....

[Touchin' Down]

Bealzebub, Sphinx

Thanks v much for your replies!! Great to get a bit of gen from you guys. Will have a look at the link Bealzebub and come back once I am suitably confused!!

Thanks again,

TD

[DH121]

Apparantly a management pilot has stated that they want to benchmark our terms and conditions with Jet2 :eek:

[Monarch Man]

As per usual RS wants the zero cost option, first we were benchmarked with T/Fly, then Easy, then Excell, and finally Jet 2, I don't personally know why he doesn't just go the whole hog and benchmark us against Air Kurdistan, but then that would cost him his bonus...wouldnt it:hmm:

[QAR ASR]

Aye, things are not how they were in my day, lad!!

Sadly, for the last 6 - 8 years it has been a gradual but accelerating erosion of terms and conditions. Gone is............................... everything, the only insurance the company has against you wanting to leave in 2 years time is that you'll be on your knees and too tired to apply elsewhere, coz I guarantee you'll want to. This will be in no small way attributed to the constant 18hr rest periods, roster patterns going from earlys to lates to nights.Ask the CAA.

Human resources, are a couple of dirty words in head office, where the attitude of if its legal........then F'off and do it. There are still some dinosaurs running things who have been there since the company was in short trousers, based in portakabin with a fleet a third of the size it is now and at the risk of seeming harsh they can no longer cope. My sympathy extended for as long as it took to effect my lifestyle.

There are some great people on the flying side, but the union is paralysed from an impressive bit of divide and conquer imposed by the management. With so many different fleets, payscales etc progress will always be limited. If things are bad now its unlikely they are going to improve again until there is a world pilot shortage(not on the horizon!), and they finally the company relents to pay as much as it takes to stem the flow of exhausted, demoralised pilots.

If you are on the bottom of the ladder looking to start I have every sympathy in your need for a first break. My only warning is don't be tempted by any previous reputation the company has. The original attractions Monarch held as an employer are evaporating and fast. If you have choices consider them carefully.

Please all, this should not be interpreted by anyone still there as me gloating and an outburst self congratulatory dirge. I made my choice to leave for many reasons and only on my day of retirement will I be able to decide whether they were good or bad choices.

[Slamitin]

Touchin Down,

A fellow ex-military flyer who joined Monarch just 18 months ago has recently resigned despite being told that he is being considered for Command. That should speak volumes!!!

Whilst Bealzebub is quite correct to state that there is not an exodus, it would be fair to say that pilot turnover is far greater than it has ever been before. People are leaving and many more are considering thier options very carefully.

As QAR ASR has already stated, don't be suckered in by the company's previous reputation as an excelent employer. Sadly, it is a completely different beast these days.

Good luck with the interview, it tends to be a rather relaxed affair usually nothing more than a friendly chat with a couple of management pilots at head office in Luton.

[Touchin' Down]

Cheers guys, all food for thought. Sounds as though you are working pretty hard. Guess I'll see what happens in a couple of weeks. May not even come to having to make the decision! Really appreciate the insider views, certainly a few things there I hadn't really thought about too much.

TD

[Monarch Man]

With that attitude Touchin down you'll go a long way:ok:

The interview is a relaxed affair, essentially a chat between yourself and a couple of management pilots. They are there to get a flavour of you, and you to get a flavour of the company.
On the negative side there are some quite contentious issues that are coming to a head at the moment, as well as some within the management structure that are stuck in a bit of a timewarp.
On the positive side, the company is profitable, scheduled pax numbers are up 20% year on year, and the prospect of the 787 looms large.
The company is full of some absolutely fantastic people, excellent trainers (who as a group view checking as a training rather than chopping exercise), and at the current rate of expansion you can reasonbly expect a command assessment within 3 years if you join with a reasonable experience level(it has been up to 7 years)
All in all I've decided to stick around for a bit, I've even turned down BA in the process.
If we (pilots and the CC) get on top of a 3 or 4 serious issues, the place will regain a fair bit of the shine it has lost recently.:ok:

[Touchin' Down]

Cheers MM,

Always try to go in to things with an open mind but can be a bit hard when you know so little about working in the industry! Again, all good info you've passed on. Apart from the people who work with Monarch, which it appears are all pretty chilled out, there must be some other positives??? Or not? lol.

[Monarch Man]

Touchin' Down

Well yes there are other good things, but it depends on your point of view. For instance I enjoy the fact that I get a mix of charter, scheduled, and longhaul flying. I dont exclusively do one or the other, and that suits me fine because I prefer to be home most nights:ok:
If you join on the FBW fleet 320/321, you will get to know the Spanish Costa's and the Canary Islands very well, then when you get a chance on the 330 you can go to Sanford, Calgary, Male, Goa, and a few more places besides, so once you get some seniority (18 months worth or so) the variety of flying is quite good:ok:

Again I hope this helps

[Mr Angry from Purley]

QAR
18 hr rest periods, earlys to lates to nights is a by product of one thing called CAP371, particularly said rule on max 3 earlies/nights.
We all hope that Sub Part Q will eventually reach these shores and you will see much more sensible schedules. For example why not offer 4 consecutive earlies or nights instead to solve your complaint. Which is better?. Given that is medical evidence to support 5 earlies (EZY) and 4 nights (DHL) there should be no issue
:\

[DH121]

The 787 will replace the A300/767. The A300/767 pilots will probably be tranferred to the 787,

A pilot joining on the A320 may see long-haul for a while, but the A330 is due to be retired in 2013, so expect a lifetime of Spain and back, with no prospect of 787.

[Rushed Approach]

Mr A,

5 earlies is already possible in CAP 371 - its just you don't choose to use it because of the extra strings attached like not more than 9 hours duty and the extra time off needed - Brown Book 7.7.2.1 if you are interested. Sub part Q is unlikely to come our way as sensible countries have decided they don't want to be dragged down to the lowest common denominator and they realise that when people are tired at night in charge of machines people start dying (ask Gary Hart).

Yes easy do it - that's why their management have just agreed to go to 5 on 4 off 5 on 4 off because all their pilots are so knackered despite all their days off - nothing to do with the fact that their days off are midnight to 6 am rather than our 9 pm to 9 am of course.

[Whoops]

Monarch is a good stepping stone. You will get good training and fly with nice people.

I am looking to leave (Capt A320). The current management do not give a sh1t about its pilots and life is only getting worse. The union is well represented but unfortunately there are two different lifestyles within the company; A300/B757/A330 pilots are generally happy and do not want to rock the boat, A320 pilots are miserable - so any decision to stand up to the company is based on your fleet and to a certain extent, base. I sincerely do not know whether those in a better position are prepared to stand up for those of us who are not. I expect time will tell.

My advice is that we are a better bet than some (flybe, XL, ryanair etc) but a lot worse than others (BA, Virgin, Brits, First Choice, TFly, Easy etc).

[Engine overtemp]

I have to agree with all that Whoops says. Like Whoops I am an A320 captain, and like him I am looking to jump ship in the not too distant future!

There is no career progression in Monarch and if you are unfortunate enough to be offered the A320, you will be stuck on that for ever! (Yes there is the carrot of long haul on the A330, however you possibly won't be on it very long before promotion and then it's back to the A320 / A321 only and 900 hours a year of Alicante!)
:ugh:

[factanonverba]

The subject of crewing the B787 has not yet been established. Historically , Monarch has used its most experienced Capts to crew new ,longhaul a/c, and the Ops director has publicly stated, 3-4 years ago ref A330 crewing, that he sees wide body command as 'career' progression for his Capts. Of course there is nothing in writing ref any career path in Monarch, so in reality none exists, but it will be a contentious decision whichever way its decided.

[Monarch Man]

The Ops director has stated a lot of things lately....none of which amounts to a hill of beans, as he loves to say one thing and then do another.
Personally I've stopped taking notice of anything he says, afterall he doesn't take one bloody bit of notice of what we say:hmm:

[factanonverba]

From his book of quotes and the only entry, "I'll only consider it if its a nil cost option"

[Hirsutesme]

As a pax, I gotta tell you they are head and shoulders above most of the competition!

[ZBMAN]

Yes the service is quite good, but bear in mind the low cost arm of Monarch isn't making much money (compared to the competion - our CEO PB has told us in a meeting). They make the big bucks in the charter business, but if it wasn't for in flight sales, Monarch Scheduled would be losing money (so I've been told).

[DH121]

but if it wasn't for in flight sales, Monarch Scheduled would be losing money

So why the headlong rush to expand the loco division?

[DEFINED CONTRIBUTION]

In flight sales forming a large part of loco profits is not new or unusual. Most loco’s rely on this and ancillary web based profit streams. M'OL's stated aim is to provide completely free flights and derive all his profit from ancillaries.

No need to panic..........yet :)

[Touchin' Down]

Thanks all for your input/advise/words of wisdom etc etc! All helped out considerably. Have been offered a position on the 75 fleet from Gatwick. Have accepted the offer! Again, thanks and look forward to joining you.

Regards,

TD

[Monarch Man]

Welcome aboard.....see you in concorde house:ok: (4th floor;) )

[Touchin' Down]

Cheers MM -Look forward to it!

[Scarebus321]

TD - Welcome aboad indeed!
T&c's really are improving for the better ;) ! Sometimes I just can't believe my luck. It's a shame you didn't get offered the 320 out of Gatwick as I hear the Company now ferry flight crew to Manchester using a helicopter rather than a taxi, and as RS likes to ensure we are a "no cost" operation he has also taken to using empty 320's to fly cabin crew from GAT to BHX - what a great chap he is - Morale has taken a huge leap forward and we now all sing his praises! How foolish we all were to think of wasting money on trying to crew bases properly and have adequate standby cover (not to mention the huge expense of a proper computer rostering system) when you can instead use helicopters!! Now we see why he is the OPs director on a huge bonus and we are mere line pilots...:ok: I'm sure PB is also as happy with RS as we are...

SB

[Easy Ryder]

Even better heard from a man in the know that theres 40 training slots for Jan and the hold pools empty! Cant find enough ppl to fill the slots. Especially now as most companies req a 3 month notice.....Says a helluva lot if you ask me. T&Cs need some serious improvin! Listening RS? :mad:

[Puppet Master]

Even better heard from a man in the know that theres 40 training slots for Jan and the hold pools empty!.. . Especially now as most companies req a 3 month notice.....


I am in the shallow pool. At least thats what the letter said. Maybe they are just hedging their bets, and I didn't have as good as an interview as I thought.

I was told during the interview that the Jan slots were filled and any offer would be for the Feb course. Sill waiting though :confused:

[Rushed Approach]

The company want to be able to move all joiners on promotion whereas existing F/Os can stay at their base for good by the way.

[Pizzaro]

Let myself down at the interview and didn't get through.(Gutted) what's the minimum time I can re-apply?

Regards P.

[ATIS]

RS out of office reply.

Sorry I'm out of the office between OCT 06 and APR 07, packing my bags and shuttling between UK and Calgary. I'll call you when I get back. Have a nice winter.

[Easy Ryder]

I was told during the interview that the Jan slots were filled and any offer would be for the Feb course. Sill waiting though :confused:


I may be mistaken, and it might be the Feb course thats fallen short of candidates.

The good news is if you were half decent in the interview a call shouldnt be too far away.

Good luck :ok: The T&Cs are pretty crap compared to others but the ppl you'll work with are a great bunch.

ATIS - how right you are..........

[Conc]

I am in the pool but haven't heard anything yet, a call would make a nice early Christmas present.

[Pies]

Was told last week that I'm on a course in Feb on the A300!!!
I thought this was fairly unusual, but an email from SK confirmed it. Anyone else on a similar, yet confusing, offer?

[Donkey Duke]

Where do the A300s fly? Are they LGW based? Congrats.

[Scarebus321]

Where do the A300s fly? Are they LGW based? Congrats.

Oh dearie me..as anyone in Monarch will tell you, the A300's don't fly anywhere..they simply roll them out of the hangar, onto a stand and then...

back to the hangar...:O

[unwiseowl]

Monarch is THE place for 18-30 rest periods. Crewing love 'em! And after many complaints via CHIRP, the CAA have given their blessing to these fatiguing rosters:ugh:

[Arrestahook]

ATIS and Scarebus -legendary! I hope someone points RS in the direction of this thread so he can see how we feel outside of a pilot meeting. I had the misfortune of going permanent on 1st Nov 2004 with all the crap T&Cs that go with it and frankly there is no incentive for me to stay. As soon as I swap seats from the 330 to LHS 320 my quality of life is going to take a nose dive for the forseeable future. Whats the point? Get rid of the salary cap, bring back our lost T&Cs, spend some money on a rostering system that doesn't involve a tablet and scribe and I would stay.
Just out of ineterest you Captains that are thinking of jumping ship, where are you looking at? Presumably you have to be v unhappy to take a pay cut and demotion to FO just to get away? RS listening?????????

[Scarebus321]

Arresta,

Sadly even if RS does read this I fear it will make no difference - Goodwill and morale mean nothing when you are driven by a huge profit related bonus and when you spend all winter on the ski slopes.. PB has to take action. I hear that many FO's are now seriously considering turning down commands as going right seat on 320 is not an option.. Those that have already gone across have warned their mates - the lifestyle is rubbish and with allowances they are better off where they are!! In order to fill all the vacant sim slots it appears that those in line for command from other fleets will first have to do a LH seat conversion and then have to serve 6 months on the bus in the LH seat.. what a nice xmas present that will be.. still, it beats a 25 quid M&S voucher...oops.

As to where some captains are considering, why do you mention a pay cut? Direct entry to EasyJet is looking a damn sight better than Monarch - stable roster, excellent T&C's; 5 on 4 off and rumours of better to come..

SB

[E cam]

Ryanair would provide a nicer lifestyle than Monarch 320/321, since they manage to avoid 18-30 rest periods and have more days off.

Jet2 would be better, since you wouldn't contantly be doing 900 hours.

Easy is now in a diferent league to Monarch - a much superior employer.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

e cam, its the rules that force 18-30 hrs, not Monarch. Ezy do 18-30 rest periods also but not as many as they have fewer night flights. You Moanarch boys have got a real hang up about 18-30hr rest periods, why dont you get the company council to suggest an approach to the CAA aka EZY 5 on 4 off etc. And you forgot to mention that a lot of folk won't jump because of the nice pension at 55???.
:\

[Rushed Approach]

5 on 4 off sounds good untill you remember a D/O can end at midnight and statr at 6 am with easy and often does with those 4/5 sector days. You'll have more evenings at home when you can have a few beers with Monarch if you draw out a typical pattern and do the sums.
Also hours spent on D/Os is very similar, and in fact quite a bit better in Monarch if you allow that after a Mon D/O you generally can't fly the morning wave or fly the afternoon wave before one.
Has even a single pilot left Monarch for easy yet (other than CTC)?

[DH121]

Mr Angry, did you ever work for Monarch?

[Whoops]

Has even a single pilot left Monarch for easy yet (other than CTC)?
At least two leaving this month, however the majority hanging on for Virgin and BA. 90% of F/O's I fly with are looking to leave asap and I've got my eyes open.

[autobrakemedium]

I struggle to believe that somebody would turn down a command just to stay on the A330.
Perhaps there is another reason?
Was he pushed or did he fall? :ugh:

[Rushed Approach]

So that's a "no" then Whoops. No-one has ever left us for easy.
Why would you leave a co where TTC was sub 2 years even if on the 320 to go to another co that flies the same type to do longer in the RHS to get a command on the same type only later where you will do more boring flying with 4 or 5 sector days and zero chance of long-haul coz your airline has no long haul aircraft? No private health cover at all, sick pay of 37% of Monarch's and LoL of 65% of Monarch's and Leave Days at 76% (28 days). DC pension virtually the same if you contribute 8%. Their Staff Travel is better mind (wouldn't be hard) and they have sector pay and better "A" scale pay. Yes more "days off" but is this better quality time off, bearing in mind that how they've got to this is by exploring what doesn't work first i.e. knackering their pilots too much up till now. Hardly a model employer. That's not to say Monarch isn't currently doing the same thing mind.
I agree the fact we're even having this discussion is significant but surely it means that Monarch is going to have to improve Ts & Cs to avoid a serious experience shortage? Isn't it sort of inevitable?
Those leaving might want to pause for a few months. From the point of view of those staying, the more that leave the more the pressure on Ts and Cs increases, so bring it on.

[factanonverba]

Well actually, its a yes. I could name several who have left us after 3-4 years and within a year have got their command at easy!

[Whoops]

So that's a "no" then Whoops. No-one has ever left us for easy.Well they certainly are now.
Why would you leave a co........For the money. At lot of F/O's are still paying training debts or have young families and big mortgages. They will earn more at Easy.

[Sphinx]

"And you forgot to mention that a lot of folk won't jump because of the nice pension at 55???."

Joiners over the last 2 years are not on a nice pension as you put it. They are on a defined contribution scheme into which they have to contribute 8% in order to get 8% from the company. It's the worst pension I have found amongst major UK airlines - I believe it is even marginally worse than Easy.

Also Easy Captains start on 10k more than Monarch's now - so if you are going to be doing SH on the A320 series why not do it for 10k more with a more stable roster and less 18-30 rest periods? Sounds tempting to me....

[Easy Ryder]

Rushed Approach,

Those 2 boys in the North (niether are CTC - well 1 definitely isnt) are leaving us for EZ for 2 reasons. Money, they pay more and a base in Scotland.

Also as hard as it is to fathom, not everone wants long haul. In fact that prospect (with a free 330 rating) is the carrot keeping a lot of guys from jumping to the likes of EZ with its stable roster and larger salary, sector pay and pension. Thats the only reason im hanging about and have not applied. Dunno where you got your info that command will take longer over there though.... they're still desperately short of Captains and as soon as you are eligable the left hand seat beckons.......

Sphinx is absolutely correct. The pension for us newbies in the company is pretty crap. And i know a number of FOs not contributing to it with the intention of buggering off as soon as a better deal comes along (myself included - unless Monarch pick up their act).

I hope they do as I really enjoy flying with this company, the people are great to work with, but money (lifestyle) talks.... Hopefully more leave and the T&Cs improve greatly!

[Rushed Approach]

If these chaps are so money driven, why are they throwing 8% of their salary down the toilet by not contributing to the Monarch scheme?

At Easy they will get 7% from the company anyway plus another 2% and if they contribute 8% themselves that will be 17% total compared with Monarch's 16% total with 8% from them in each case.

Yes the Monarch scheme needs improving but to not contribute at all is just crazy. Your early contributions are the most important as they have the longest time to roll up before you retire.

I didn't mean the time to command was longer at easy, just that with it sub 2years in Monarch there isn't much in it by the time you've moved and done a year or so RHS.

[Easy Ryder]

It goes up every year on the aniversary of your start date.

[longarm]

Yr 1 42032
Yr 2 42688
Yr 3 43398
Yr 4 44109
Yr 5 44820
Yr 6 46043
Yr 7 46946
etc, etc till year 13. Haven't flown with anyone recently who plans to stay that long though.

[Arrestahook]

Right mind made up, anyone know when the Virgin application will be opened again?

[Fuel Crossfeed]

Longarm unless I'm mistaken or have an old schedule A, F/O increments only go upto year 11 (£50,559).
Then there is a big black solid line across the paper that means for those joining after 01 Nov 2004 tough luck thats your lot, increments stop here.:{

[longarm]

Crossfeed you are absolutely correct. I'll blame it on being tired and having an inability to read properly. So the max as crossfeed says is 50 559. For those who joined before the November 2004 f/o's max is 66,681 (13 year SFO B scale).

You can see why its not as popular as it used to be.

[Alloy]

Max possible for a pre November 2004 pilot is actually even more, being £68681 (£66681 +[£66681 x 3%]) when the twenty year continuous service payment of 3% is added that post November 2004 pilot's have not got in their contract. Not exactly the same carrot now days.........£50559......

[Arrestahook]

For any non Monarch pilots reading who don't know the story. The cost saving exercise started by recruiting 30 odd ctc cadets in early 2004 to serve a six month 'trial employment' period. You can understand why the existing pilots were upset with the dilution of experience of a relitively small company and the strain it put the trainers under. But you get 30 pilots for free for 6 motnhs!
After six months some of us were offered permanent contracts and some were not. The trouble was the market was still slack after 2001, airlines were not recruiting and the cadets had to take any opportunity they were being offered, even if this involved; a £32k starting salary (low hrs pilots) , capped salaries, one of the worst money purchase pensions I have seen and many other kicks in the arse.
We knew this was a rubbish deal and were concerned that we would be undermining the position of the company council and everything they had fought for over the years if we accepted it. Behind the scenes we had all agreed to stand firm and not accept the offer until we got the old one or it was significantly improved. What happened next I did not expect from Monarch.
We were split into three groups of 10, those they were 'definately offering jobs to', those they 'might' and those who can go and find employment else where thanks very much. The letter which accompanied the offer effectively said to those of us in the 'definite' 10, ' You have a week to sign this contract and if you don't accept it, your job will be offered to someone in the 'maybe pile'. So we were stuffed and had no choice. Divide and rule! The cheek of it was every one in the 'maybe' pile was offered a job anyway! They couldn't refuse the contract because 10 of us had just signed it:*
It set the precident and everyone joining after 1st Nov 2004 has to suffer the same deal. So RS has saved the company a lot of money he must be doing a good job!
But has he noticed how suddenly Monarch is no longer the place to stay and build a career for new joiners. How many people have left in the last 18 months for greener pastures? What is the cost of recruiting, type rating, line training, kitting out with uniform all these new guys that are being hired to replace the leavers? But that will be costed somewhere else so books still look good.

[pitts1]

Hi Guys. due to start with moanrch in jan...was really looking forward to it. I was leaving easy to come to monarch but now i am very unsure... have 500hrs and due cmd with easy this time next year! any suggestions as i am really confused now:eek:

[Arrestahook]

Quite right cparker, not free due to expenses and initial training costs, but 30X£40K salaries saved.

[Bealzebub]

Not exactly 30 times 40K if you are talking about 6 months ? it would be half that wouldn't it ? I am not au fait with the arrangements between CTC and Monarch but the crews are not supplied for free. This arrangement predates 2004 by a long way, many of the initial CTC pilots are now Captains on the various fleets. Additionally there are significant additional training costs for large numbers of low hour pilots who need more resources. More training captains, more training sectors per individual. Nevertheless the cost benefits must still outweigh the negatives since so many low cost operators now do it.

Undoubtably there was a cost saving factor in recruiting so many low hour pilots, they are after all "low hour pilots". The people who are not thrilled are those experienced pilots from the military and other airlines who are now in direct competition for these same right seat placements. However the company no doubt had to look at what was going on in other low cost operations and compete accordingly.

Perhaps one day the situation will revert to that, where such low hour pilots are politely told to come back when they have aquired more experience ? In the meantime make hay while the sun shines. I believe that it is the insurance market that one day ( should it feel compelled to do so) will drive the market back to more "experienced" co-pilots.

[Sky Wave]

I believe that it is the insurance market that one day ( should it feel compelled to do so) will drive the market back to more "experienced" co-pilots.


Why? How many accidents have been attributed to low experienced FO's? I read a lot of AAIB incident reports and I have to say I don't recall seeing many incidents caused by low experienced FO's. I'm sure there are a few, however there are also many reports where very experienced flight crew have made mistakes.
.

[Office Pest]

Pitts1
Funnily enough I am going in exactly the opposite direction to you. Having worked for Monarch for a year and a half out of Man on the 320/321 I put my money where my moaning mouth was and finally did my last flight for them on Friday. For myself there were a few contributing factors that to be fair were not all to do with Monarch - however the rostering is a joke which leaves you so tired when you are off that all you can do is try to recover for the next stint. To add to this you can forget weekends off and any kind of a family life. The only saving factor for me was the bunch of people you work with day to day as you could not wish to work alongside any better people. That is really the only thing I will miss.

Office Pest

[Easy Ryder]

Pitts, Office Pest is right in rgds that your days off are pretty much recovery days. And good bye weekends. Our new scheduling agreement allows only 3 Sat/Sun combo days off by request a season. 2 if you add a Fri.

Just curious as to why you wanted to jump ship? You get paid more at easy, your pensions better as is your roster.

Was it the carrot of the 330? I think all new joiners will be waiting 3 yrs at the very least to see it, unless the company gets more. By then Monarch will have offered you the LHS if you have the req'd hrs. And again easy pay capts more! The 330 is nice but the novelty soon wears off, you do get to spend a week or so in some lovely lovely places.......... but to be home for a handful of days while away ALL the time in summer does grind you down. 1 or 2 trips a month would be ideal and do the rest S/H. But with the RS policy of no cost only the bare min of FOs and Capts are rated on it and thus away virtually permanantly, only flying the 320 to stay current! (LGW crews away the most, MAN crews the least)

If your single its a great. If you have a family or gf/bf not really! But having said that, you'll prob be a capt before flying it...

Bealzebub, i guess you havnt read the latest flight international. It looks like the current market forces have resulted in a new breed of FO (multi crew licence) which won't have a CPL or have even flown a 152 solo before getting to sit alongside you with 300 punters or so behind you. Probably wont be long before you remember the good old days of when one had to at least fly a plane solo before getting the RHS in an airline!

[Scarebus321]

Pitts!! Stay where you are!!

Office Pest voted with his feet and many of us are seriously considering our options... including captains. RS wanted our t&c's to be inline with Britannia... then they became much better than ours.. so he lowered the bar to Easy... then they overtook us.. and now?? The rumour network says RS wants us benchmarked with Jet2 - Do you really want to leave Easy for a an over rated promise of the 330? Trust me, it's not worth it and you will regret it. The folks you fly with our the best but we are all exhausted and dreaming of the revolution:}

[CanAV8R]

Had an ex Easy FO jumpseating up to Scotland with me in recent days. He loves BA but says from a regional angle, easy was great and it looks like the day off agreement is only going to make life a little better.

I on the other hand do not miss the volatile nature of my roster changes, lack of choice of days off or inability to plan my life as a Monarch pilot. I did enjoy the people I must admit but the lifestyle sucked.

Most companies have similar starting pay, pensions and all. The key here is lifestyle and it looks like Easy win over Monarch any day. Sad to say really.

[pitts1]

Yes your right, 330 was the carrot but was told 6 to 12 months!!! Are Monarch short of cmds and would a cmd be quick or still at 6 years. Easy is a good company but some training cpts are bullies which i did not enjoy or appreciate, and this even continues through to lpc and opc!!!! Thought Monarch was a great place to go, and waited several years to get here. But do have family so days off are important..was told that i would fly out of ltn assisgned base but again heard you get sent away to BHX ABZ and other destinations??

[Rushed Approach]

Pitts, I don't know where 3 years comes from for the 330 - there are CTC guys and girls going on it now who have been with us less than 2 years and they're only going on it as they haven't got the hours for command this winter, the time for which will be sub 2 years after this winter's lot. Some ex-easy chaps got the 330 much quicker than this so, for once, I would believe what you were told at your interview.

LTN is by far the best place to be based on the 320 until they start schedules from there at the rate the MAN and LGW guys fly (will be a few years yet I think). On the 320 you will do BHX, EDI and AGP voyages but next year there is quite a bit more LTN flying so will be away much less.

And ER the SA hasn't changed our weekend day entitlements - that's the way they've always been - phone GM/AM and ask them!

[Easy Ryder]

Pitts,

The ONLY way you'll see the 330 in 6-12 months is if the company gets more. I know for sure they are lookin (was told by a management pilot) for at least 2 or 3 more but when (if) we see them...... who knows. Problems are, a larger pax door req'd for the 90s evac in a charter config, and the right engines. Because our 320s and 321s have different engines, the CAA have stated any new 330s need to have the same engines as our current 2. A current FO joining now will be waiting at least 3 yrs if we stick with just the 2. If you get promoted to the LHS before then, the wait will be at least 8 yrs or more, probably more chance on being typed on the 787.

You'll be happy to know all trainers i've come accross in MON are all fair, and not bullies.

Days off in summer..... well you'll be working hard, real hard. Runs of 5 or 6 with only 2 days off in between are not uncommon. I got plot changed extra days off as i busted my 90hrs in 28days one month. Having said that the 2 sectors a day will feel a lot better than the 4 or 6 sectors your used too.

If your based in LGW you can expect to be sent to EDI for a few days in summer, however the rumour is the 757 guys will cover that next summer. Lots of horrible night flights too.

MAN pilots will get the occasional AGP nightstop which just started again this month. I think they still do ABZ but heard a whisper thats going to LTN crews as well? Someone please correct me.

LTN based pilots get sent EVERYWHERE! Hardly ever fly out of their base but the voyage money makes the bank account look good. Again great if your single but may be a pain with a family. LTN pilots easily make the most money.

BHX as far as i know go nowhere else.

Yes there may well be a CAPT prob shortly, however the raised retirement age will help this out a bit. 4000hrsTT to be considered, rumoured to be reducing to 3500hrs. Will depend on seniority, you may find yourself already having more than those hours but obviously those more senior to you will be promoted first.

Rushed,

The ex-EZ guys that got the 330 early, i believe worked for MON as CTC, went to EZ then came back to MON. This was what i was told, could be wrong.

Yes your right looks like those hired 2 yrs ago and last yr will only (have only) be waiting 2 yrs for the 330. However many many pilots have been hired earlier this year and many more this comming Jan and Feb. Based on that, and the average intake of new 330 FOs per year, it may be some time, ie more than 2 yrs, before they see the 330. If new joiners got bumped onto the 330 by-passing seniority, i imagine there will be a big who-ha about it! If we get a couple more 330s i think virtually everyone will be typed on them and it will be just a matter of waiting on your course date.

[Rushed Approach]

Pitts your fate will depend very much on your total hours.

As a LTN based pilot you will do BHX and EDI almost exclusively on voyage (the 757 up there rumour has died I'm told). MAN pilots do the ABZ and you might get the odd AGP too (just restarted this winter). You'll do the odd LGW and MAN voyage too.

You won't do runs of 5 or 6 at LTN very often. This is MAN or LGW stuff. And not many night flights, although there are some out of Brum and the odd late LTN schedule to AGP.

I guess 600 hours would be average in recent years for a LTN base cf 800-900 at MAN or LGW.

[pitts1]

With easy i average between a 10-12hr day, and i have to say thats hard!! Like to ask when you get sent to edi,agp and bhx are these few days away of week away? Thanks guys, these are the questions i wanted to ask in interview but they were running late, kept waiting for an hour and did not get all my questions answered, so i am really in the dark!!! and :ugh:

[pitts1]

Sorry forgot to say i felt thet were very keen on my total hours in the interview which are just over 5000hrs and that i had a atpl which they smiled upon!! Which made me feel that high hour chaps were what they are looking for at the moment!

[Rushed Approach]

EDI is usually 3, 4 or 5 days (summer only) but this year there have been Days Off up there too within the run. BHX is generally a run of 5 mornings or afternoons or the dreaded afternoons into nights but there are a fair few BHX based F/Os now so in theory you shouldn't do it that often!

PM me if you want more info.

[Easy Ryder]

Sorry forgot to say i felt thet were very keen on my total hours in the interview which are just over 5000hrs and that i had a atpl which they smiled upon!! Which made me feel that high hour chaps were what they are looking for at the moment!

A nice quick command for you my friend! :ok:

[ZBMAN]

I didn't mean the time to command was longer at easy, just that with it sub 2years in Monarch there isn't much in it by the time you've moved and done a year or so RHS.

Fact or wishful thinking? If true it beats Ryanair then :} Somehow I can't see MP agreeing to that, but hey, what do I know?

Along with Office Pest I have just left Monarch and have now converted to the Orange ideology ;):}. I must admit my roster looks pretty damn good! Also being able to plan what I will be doing in March is absolutely brilliant. Much like Office Pest I have enjoyed my time with Spotty M, and I miss my ex colleagues very much (Hi to those who may be reading), and the reasons for my move have much to do with basing. BUT what made it a no-brainer, are the TC's at eJ which are quite significantly better than those at Monarch. Time to command may be getting shorter at Monarch, but will it really become as short as ej's? Monarch's training dept are already under considerable strain, will they be able to cope with the extra burden? Time to command at eJ is essentially variable, but can be as low as year if you have the experience. The main bottleneck is, as usual the training capacity. I have been told that people are having to wait 6 to 8 months after their command assesment for a slot on a course.

Both are good airlines, but the advantage now goes to eJ. But with more people voting with their feet who knows what RS will come up with. For now for those wanting to join Monarch from eJ or elsewhere I would say think very very carefuly, and avoid the FBW fleet at all costs.

oh just noticed my screen name is now obsolete. oh well I'll just stick with it for now in memory of the good old days!:ok:

[pitts1]

Hey guys


Does anyone know what the cmd time is for the A320 if you are joining with 5000hrs and previous airline/cmd experience. so people are telling me 6 yrs so are saying 12months-18 months at the longest. Would be grateful if anyone can shed so light on this subject as the time scale is very different.

Thanks guys

[qwertyuiop]

Pitts,
Firstly, it does not matter which fleet you are on, you will get your command based on your seniority (at the moment!!) and you will change fleets if required.
At present the time to command is around 6 years, ie those waiting for thier command course this winter have been with here approx 6 years.
The 60+ age rule may prevent it coming down to the 12-18 months you mention however the expansion is expected to continue and many new recruits have very low experience levels.
My guess, and it is a guess, would be that it is unlikely drop below 5 years for the majority. I say that because the low experienced guys will be reaching the required level soon plus there will be very few retirements over the next 5 years.

[ImAflyGirl]

Hi guys,

From my viewpoint, Flybe is a company that has it's feet firmly planted and is eager to be a better employer and offer as good or better than the comp. Flybe has been good to me and I hope that those of you who work for BACon get what you are looking for by joining Flybe I am sure it is difficult to not know what is going to happen.

They are upping the current terms to match other employers. Can't say the last payrise was much to write home about though. Just wondering if anyone would mind sharing details with a current flybe girl. Wondering about things what day is payday, how much are disruption pay, shift change, day off and any other things you get paid for. What is flight pay like and how much is taxable, etc. Do you get much in the way of dispensation as Flybe just upped that to be in line with other airlines.

Good luck and just to say that Flybe is a happy little family and I for one hope you will be happy when you join.

I am sure our paths will cross at some time or another if you stay.


Thanks
Flygirl:ok:

[Easy Ryder]

Hi guys,
From my viewpoint, Flybe is a company that has it's feet firmly planted and is eager to be a better employer and offer as good or better than the comp. Flybe has been good to me and I hope that those of you who work for BACon get what you are looking for by joining Flybe I am sure it is difficult to not know what is going to happen.
They are upping the current terms to match other employers. Can't say the last payrise was much to write home about though. Just wondering if anyone would mind sharing details with a current flybe girl. Wondering about things what day is payday, how much are disruption pay, shift change, day off and any other things you get paid for. What is flight pay like and how much is taxable, etc. Do you get much in the way of dispensation as Flybe just upped that to be in line with other airlines.
Good luck and just to say that Flybe is a happy little family and I for one hope you will be happy when you join.
I am sure our paths will cross at some time or another if you stay.
Thanks
Flygirl:ok:

Thats great Flygirl except you posted in a thread about Monarchs T&Cs....

[FBOZH]

Hi, to come back to the topic of Monarch and Easy, from an experienced F/O's point of view, it seems Monarch is offering better T+Cs than Easy with roughly 42000 GBP and nothing to pay towards the type rating(provided you stay 3 years minimum) whilst Easy is offering about 30000 GBP excluding moneys paid towards the bond. I am an outsider so I gathered this information from the internet. Could someone in the know confirm these T+Cs?

[ImAflyGirl]

Thats great Flygirl except you posted in a thread about Monarchs T&Cs....

Sorry about that. I am new to PPRuNe. Struggling to make my post work.

[Alloy]

FBOZH, I stand to be corrected but looking at easyjet's website it looks as if an experienced but non type rated FO starts on £39,740 plus £14.18/sector. There is no sector pay at Monarch that makes quite a difference.

http://www.easyjet.com/EN/Jobs/Pilot/pilotrecruitment_oursalariesandbenefits.html

[ZBMAN]

I believe FBOZH is talking about TRSS, which is a totally different animal.
DE SFO with EZY pays pays 44k plus sector pay, which is quite significantly better than MON.

[Rushed Approach]

DE SFO with easy gets £44,740 plus sector pay (although it's 90% of this or £40,266 for the first 6 months). It's £39,740 if you are on the TRSS (Type Rating Sponsorship Scheme) as you are paying back £5,000 a year for 5 years - this is for licence holders without medium/heavy multi-crew commercial jet experience.

[FBOZH]

you are right, I was talking about TRSS. I just checked the website and there is a significant difference at Easy between F/Os and senior F/Os. Could somenone tell me the difference? If I join with a Full ATPL and 2600TT, will that make me senior? Thanks

[Rushed Approach]

The website seems to imply that a First Officer has a frozen ATPL as it's in brackets after the rank in the table. So I assume once it is unfrozen you are then a "Senior First Officer". So you would go in as an SFO I think.

[A320 or bust]

It depends on jet hours too. They have only recently recognised the BAE 146 to be good/big enough for direct entry, so anything that or bigger should get you straigfht in on SFO.

[Easy Ryder]

How did this turn into a thread about EZ's requirements? :confused: :} ;)

[FBOZH]

sorry!:ooh: :E ;)

[hapzim]

Back to Monarch

Management are now building in to their recruitment plans an additional number of places to cover the attrition rate, those leaving to find better T & C esp pension. The financial package now no longer makes up for the unstable rosters and poor quality of lifestyle.

If the Flybe new package is what i have heard we will find that source of pilots dwindiling.

Maybe time for Mr B to start to hear the real story.

[RED WINGS]

Thats ok you will be able to swell Monarch's ranks with BACon drivers

[Scarebus321]

Maybe time for Mr B to start to hear the real story.

A little bird tells me that a "things PB should know" website is presently under construction...
It has to be said that at the recent pilot meetings it was apparent that RS has kept PB in the dark about a number of major issues - perhaps RS has been sailing a little too close to the wind??

Not that I'm one for conspiracy theories, but it was strange how some of our most senior captains (and some of RS's biggest fans) who were origionally rostered for the meeting - were plot changed to fly at the last minute... how very convenient :rolleyes:
SB

[Monarch Man]

Mayby it should be called "RS tells fibs when his lips move" or....

"dayoff payments cause roster disruption"

"18-30 rest periods"

"why hotac when you can stay in a hostel?"

Perhaps there'll be a bit more shouting from PB in RS's direction? I smell work to rule on the way:E :8 :ok:

[Jetdriver]

Strange scarebus, because there is a private forum right here on PPRuNe which I am reliably informed is "well read" and it is anonymous. Both of the gentlemen you allude to, hold occaisional meetings at all of the main bases where you would be able to put your complaint or concern. I am reasonably certain that if I placed a telephone call to their office now, I would either be put directly in contact or called back as soon as possible.

As for the recent meetings. Given there were a seemingly large number of people rostered to attend, and that anyone on a day off or otherwise not flying were generally invited to attend, it is hard to imagine that a coherent plan to prevent the most likely vociferous attendees was orchestrated. As amusing as the concept is, it does stretch the outer limits of credulity.

[Conc]

I am in the hold pool for Monarch, just wondering if anyone has received start dates for the Airbus out of Birmingham yet?

[Easy Ryder]

For Schedules:
Barcelona
Malaga
Alicante
Almeria
Palma
Tenerife South
Ibiza
Jerez
Faro
Menorca
Lanzarote

Plz correct or add more - Hell the easiest way is to go on the website put departure airport as MAN and see what all the destinations are!

[Dct_Bombi]

The majority of the charter work is on the the boeings and A300 unfortunately, It happens but not that often on the baby bus.

[ZBMAN]

and the night CFU's followed by night RHO to finish a run of 5... how I am going to miss all this:}!!

Yes you do get a few charters in the summer as I've mentioned. In the winter, there's the odd ski flight to Bulgaria or Austria.

[hapzim]

Would do but not much use as on the 20th of the month we get them and the only thing that is stable are the allocated days off. The rest, the company think they own you 24/6 and roster disruption rules. Most days/nights are 2 sectors (2:30 - 5:00 hr sectors) with quite a few taxi rides after a duty to get you back to base.

Be prepared to bet very flexible with life from work.

[Monarch Man]

Possibly, although an early Preveza followed by an early TFS followed night Dalaman with a 2350 report..off duty at 1030 the next day is a killer, yet is typical of certain roster times.

[darkstar99]

cheers!

PM sent

[Wear the Fox Hat]

I have searched around and there doesn't appear to be a definitive answer regatding the typical roster for scheduled Monarch flight crew, particularily on the A320.

Would anybody be able to advise?

Many thanks,

WTFH

[BYMONEK]

WTtH

That may well be due to the fact that rosters in Monarch are quite simply not worth the paper they're written on.The only thing that's recognised is your day off but forget the rest ladies and gents.

Monarchs archilles heel is it's lack of roster stability and was the fundamental reason for my resignation almost 4 years ago. Things haven't changed since then and i'd srongly advise anyone who values their social and family life to think very long and hard before applying. I'd been there over 9 years and as a Captain with an excellent final salary, it was undoubtedly a tough decision but one which I don't regret for one minute. I miss some of the flying and certainly most of my colleagues ( on both sides of the door!), but not for one minute do I miss the severe dicking I got from roster changes. 27 plot changes in one month was my record. 3 in one month was the best achieved and that was with 2 weeks leave! Some people can live with it but for others like me it simply wears you down.

The Company were never prepared to change and BALPA, or should I say the Company Council, weren't prepared to fight it either. When Britannia( Thomsonfly) incorporated it 6-7 years ago, it was well received by pilots AND crew control. Their CC fought for it and it grieved me greatly that ours didn't and haven't since. The number of 'shots across their bows' that were threatened against the Company from the CC was laughable. I always believed there were some on that Council who were there ,not for us, but to further themselves and so true it came to be!

As a comparison, in the almost 4 years i've been with my new Company, i've had a total of 4 changes to my roster. 2 actual changes, 1 cancellation due training and 1 voluntary change that I requested through a trip swop.
Quality of life is something some people might describe as priceless. I'm one of them. YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!

Regards

BYMONEK

[spottyemm]

I'm certainly not saying Monarch rostering is great...its not, but I only had 2 plot changes in Jan, one swapping a stby for a flight and one changing flight destinations. 1xstby becoming a flight so far this month.

As far as BALPA goes I believe that the current CC have done a pretty good job in testing conditions...we wait for the outcome of this years pay negotiations before making a final judgement.

In answer to your question Foxy there is a wide variation in the 'standard' minibus roster depending on basing and season. What base do you have in mind?

[Sphinx]

WTFH

I'm afraid what BYMONEK says is still true to this day. Most months I have roster changes in double figures, even in Winter when things are much quieter. It really does play havoc with arrangements particularly if you have kids and a wife / husband that also works.

As a general guide to your question though as an A320 F/O at LGW expect 15 to 20 flying days per month from May through to October. More than likely these will be a mix of early mornings, afternoons and nights. Often in Summer you may get two mornings, two afternoons and two nights, then 2 days off. That really is a killer fatigue-wise.

From November to April expect 9 or less flying days per month. All the remainder will be standbys or training days. You will not be rostered any extra days off even though there is no need to have so many people on standby. You will only get the minimum 8 days off in 28. Don't know what could expect at MAN, LTN or BHX, but I would guess busier all year round at MAN and similar to LGW at BHX and LTN.

People are currently leaving to BA and Virgin as one might expect, but also to easyJet and Aer Lingus and many have applied to Middle Eastern carriers, Cathay and Thomsonfly.

[ZeBedie]

A new Easyjet F/O will take home £700/month more than a new Monarch F/O. Similar situation with capts.

[Wear the Fox Hat]

Many thanks for the replies, certainly doesn't paint Monarch as the company of choice to be working for it is a shame really. When are you due to hear anything regarding a new pay deal - any ideas :confused:

Spottyemm...I am asking particularily in regards to the LTN base, as Spinx suggested I would imagine it is pretty similar to LGW.

My impression is one of polar extremes, whereby some people seem to really enjoy Monarch while others suffer from poor rostering, etc. So surely to remain (attain) the rank of a choice employer and one people actually want to stick with, Monarch are going to have to review their T's&C's fairly quickly, especially if what ZeBedie says is true regarding the salary differential between EZY and Monarch how would they expect to remain competitive :ugh:

[Office Pest]

I worked for Monarch for two years out of MAN on the 320/21 and left in November last year for Easyjet and I can honestly say it was the best decision I ever made. Apart from the great people I had the pleasure to work with there is not much else to miss. With easyjet I got my base of choice, more money and a very predictable roster. If I so desired I could work out my days off many months in advance - not something you could do with Monarch. Obviously you do many more short sectors with easy but that it about the only downside. Different companies do things different ways and nowhere is perfect but easy suits me down to the ground.

Best Regards,
Office Pest

[Monarch Man]

Its probably been said before, but to reiterate, there is a real split between MAN 320/321 drivers and say LTN/LGW crew. Actually come to think of it, its not really a split rather more of a different perspective.

MAN 320/321 guys......900hrs per year mostly Spain, and too many back to back night Tenerife's

Everywhere else.....not as many hours, a bit more variety, and it appears, a little less roster disruption.

The pay claim is progressing, recently a survey has been carried out by an impartial agency to gauge the level and depth of frustration at the stagnating T & C's.
There seems to be an appetite to confront the current Ops director, and his "Zero Cost" policy, as well as the management hierarchy in general.
The demographics of the company are also changing, there are more junior pilot employees who have much more to gain, and a lot less to lose by taking direct industrial action, however there will be the usual cadre' of pilots who for their own reasons will never act industrially, but their numbers are reducing rapidly.
I'll predict that around 90% of BALPA members will vote for industrial action if the company doesn't stop taking the P$ss on T & C's

[Fuel Crossfeed]

"recently a survey has been carried out by an impartial agency to gauge the level and depth of frustration at the stagnating T & C's."

Monarch Man - Was this survey just for BALPA members or could none members take part too?

[Monarch Man]

Fuel, as far as I'm aware, and according to the nice American lady with whom I spoke too and gave my survey answers too, it was for MON Balpa members only.

[Fuel Crossfeed]

Thanks MON Man.

[nilcostoptionmyass]

Has all gone down the pan since the last Management change a few years ago, those of you thinking of joining - forget it -unless as is mostly the case now you have no hours and after a first job, then take the job, get the experience and leave, people are leaving and looking to leave in droves.

In the last couple of years experience levels in the company have become very low indeed for obvious reasons, terms and conditions are a joke and roster stability ??????? no..

Do yourself a favour.

[Monarch Man]

Has all gone down the pan since the last Management change a few years ago, those of you thinking of joining - forget it -unless as is mostly the case now you have no hours and after a first job, then take the job, get the experience and leave, people are leaving and looking to leave in droves.

In the last couple of years experience levels in the company have become very low indeed for obvious reasons, together with a commercial pressure to operate into some very unsuitable airfields.

Do yourself a favour.

Very Very well put.

RS, I trust you are reading this :ok:

[2engop]

33 changes in October is my record!

[tubby linton]

Wear the fox hat,have you been offered a job or are you just researching
the market?

[Sphinx]

Office Pest,
Any chance you could check your PM's, please? Thanks....

[nilcostoptionmyass]

18 plot substantial changes in 1 day is my record :ugh:

[ZeBedie]

It looks like there will be more interviews soon, since another batch of resignations have been handed in. No wonder the head shed has a revolving front door!

[Easy Ryder]

19 bods left since Jan! Bloody hell! Well im sure RS and the rest will certainly look at what the CC is asking for a little more closely..... :rolleyes:

Good luck to all of you going on to greener pastures :ok:

[Scarebus321]

I hear 11 have resigned in the last fortnight... so I do the hope the message is getting through to the warerabbit.

The CC are now in a very strong position and let's hope they don't get fobbed off by the usual "zero cost" rubbish that we've heard in the past. The present training costs alone must be a stark reminder that you can't keep treating the crews in the manner that mangement have previously deemed appropriate... We have now fallen behind all others in terms of t&c's and the rostering department need a new computer system !! Steps need to be taken urgently to restore morale and to stop the flood of resignations- but that would take true leadership... bugger:ugh:

[TEN DOLLAR]

If T&C's don't improve, the simple answer is vote with your feet. I did and have not regretted it once. How can I regret getting £1200 more take home pay a month, a vastly better pension, 15 days off a month on average, 8 weeks holiday, Worldwide destinations - need I go on? However I have missed the Monarch girls;) Monarch is still a great airline, with great people but now I don't believe it is deserving of the good reputation it still has within the industry. It's incredible the number of Captains I fly with in my new company who say, " you worked for Monarch? I thought no one ever left Monarch?"

I would still recommend Monarch to anyone but only if they require heavy jet experience. Unfortunately Monarch will slowly become a training ground for the larger airlines, which is a shame. However you reap what you sow!:ok:

[DESKLAMP1]

I must concurr with TENDOLLAR. I am in the same position having left Monarch pastures new last year, even with a Command looming. I also on average get between 13-15 days off a month. Duty free weeks, weeks of leave or just days off keep coming along.Even as a Senior F/O at Monarch I have received £1200+ payrise per month with stable rostering,which has enabled me to realise a life outside of the 'job', even as a junior F/O!!
I think the people at Monarch make the company what it is, they truly are a very professional and friendly group but I think that's only because the T&C's are so bad now it has brought the workforce together more so than in the past when I joined Monarch.
To reiterate what my colleague has suggested, look on Monarch as a training ground to get that valuable 'jet' experience before moving to another operator with better T&C's.

[Easy Ryder]

With the amount of people leaving at the moment, i'd say it won't be long before that good rep is completely flushed down the toilet...

[CanAV8R]

I will agree with the comments of those who have made the move. I did it a year ago and will say this. My lifestyle has improved as rosters stability is now a reality. I work quite a few weekends but at Monarch this could happen if you got on a weekend 'Roll' as I called them. My pay stub averages 1000 pounds more a month and can be even much more with overtime. The holiday set-up at Big Airways is far superior as is the staff travel. The pension has been greatly improved as well. Monarch senior management’s attitude about pensions was 'That’s all you are going to get'. That was the fact that pushed me out. Monarch is a good employer and you could not meet a better bunch of people to work with. That being said there are much better contracts out there and obviously people are exercising their ability to make that choice to leave.

[Scarebus321]

I've been talking to a great deal of FO's and almost without exception they are "looking around". For most of them the forthcoming pay deal is absolutely crucial as to where their futures lie.. and I trust mangement are aware of the feeling in the ranks.

Should we fail to get a proper deal this time, the small flow of resignations will turn into a flood... Any plans the Company have of expansion would have to be reassessed and the even the present summer schedule could become unworkable. We are all aware that the grass is greener and we don't have to put up with the present t&c's any longer - Management seem all to happy to "feather their own nests" whilst the reputation of the Company falters...
Isn't it about time that some of the more senior captains now stood up and said "enough is enough - back to your day job Scotty"....

;)

[Monarch Man]

Sadly Scarebus, quite a large portion of the senior Captains you speak about, and I'm talking those who are approaching double digit seniority, don't give 2 sh%ts about the present situation, they represent the "I'm alright Jack" attitude that is borne out by their inaction.

The trouble is that there are two different companies within one at the moment, and I don't mean scheduled vs charter either.
The senior guys (B767/A330) are on very good contracts i.e. over 90K basic, 450-500hrs a year, plus 10-15k on voyage etc etc etc

The rest of us, well 750-900hrs per year, crappy DC pension, little or no voyage, and a Basic that has slipped markedly in comparison.
RS, MP, PB, and TJ are going to need to get very close to the asking level from the CC, they also need to invest in the future i.e. rostering, an Ops department that can make decisions, and accept that MON is no longer the desirable place to work it once was.

Don't expect much help from the longterm employed, many of them couldn't care less about our situation, they are more interested in protecting their FS pensions, which is ironic and sad really, given that they themselves have benefited from the hard work previous long servers put in.

I personally know of 7 f/O's who are sitting on yes letters to various carriers who haven't tended resignations yet:8

[fmgc]

I would echo the comments about FOs saying that they are waiting for the outcome of the pay deal.

Bad pay deal = "Thanks for the type rating I'm off!"

[Easy Ryder]

Monarch Man,

7 more hey?? HAHA boy I wonder if RS has opened his eyes to the mess he has created! Zero Cost in the short term = MEGA COSTS in the long term! :ugh:

Where are they off too? The usual suspects ie) BA, Virgin, Aer Lingus, EZ?

How many ppl have left from the 330? Do they have enough bods left to cover the summer flying?

[DEFINED CONTRIBUTION]

MM & S321,

With the greatest of respect guys, IMHO the most important factor in improving and then maintaining our T&C's is unity. As soon as we start antagonising each other on here and then dividing into separate factions we've had it. The current Ops Dir as we all know is both cunning and conniving and he would read these posts with glee.

We've got the ever increasing turnover of Pilots, we've got the strong pay claim and we've got the strength of feeling within the ranks, and if the ware rabbit :8 doesn't deliver, we will all have the vote for industrial action!

[Monarch Man]

I couldn't agree more Defined, it is also worth making the point IMHO that there are those who are happy to benefit without offering anything in return.
The senior people I refer too are both well known, and well known for their views, they are also unlikely to be influenced by RS or his tactics simply because their only interest is number 1.

[unwiseowl]

Please don't tar all senior captains with the same brush. Yes there are some wide-body, over 55 age pilots, who have an easy life and are happy with the status quo. Then there are the rest of us. We didn't want the new inferior terms and conditions, but with a weak CC at the time, what could we do? You can't strike without union backing.

We warned you guys who've joined on the new contracts, via pprune, but join you did. We told you it was a bum deal, but some people ignored the advice, joined anyway and then winged that they were getting less than the people on the old contract, as if it was our fault. It is not our fault.

However we arrived here, we have to deal with the situation we're in. If we turn our anger against each other, then management have total victory on a plate.

My position is that I will willingly go on strike for the DC pension or the removal of "the bar". But please, stop moaning about the deal YOU SIGNED UP FOR. The more senior pilots have done nothing to harm your lot. In fact we were fighting for you before you joined. And we want to help you now.

[Monarch Man]

Unwiseowl, with the greatest amount of respect, your words are heartening to hear:ok:
Having said that, those who joined after 2004 (of which I am not one) are merely wishing to improve their deal, they are perfectly entitled to express an opinion based on the industry as a whole, and how the current T & C's offered at MON have slipped in comparison:=
As regards to offering warnings, again that is all well and good for someone in a secure and reasonably well paid position, it is very different however for someone from a less secure perspective.
Whatever the rights and wrongs, the post 2004 guys/girls joined on a contract that was until about 18 months ago, quite competitve, it is clear now that it is not.
Most of the newish F/O's I speak too don't moan about the deal they signed up for:= , they moan that the deal they signed up for hasn't improved significantly enough to cover the increased costs of living etc etc to make them wish to stay at MON rather than head off to other employers who offer a better standard of employment.
Like you unwise, I will happily remove my labour to improve these guys/girls lot.

[unwiseowl]

Monarch Man, I don't disagree with any of that. And to be fair to the new contract pilots - at least they have some fire in their bellies and they're prepared for a fight. That's what we need!

[Scarebus321]

DC, It is apparent that there is now huge underswell of unity at Monarch - and as you rightly point out I feel the ball is firmly in our court...I have to say almost all the captains - young and old - are greatly annoyed at the huge turnover of junior pilots and the erosion of a once excellent reputation. And for what?? A penny pinching myopic policy which has clearly back fired and potentially stands to cost the Company far more than it has ever saved...
Monarch Man, although I fully appreciate that there are some senior guys on much better deals, a lot of those guys are fully aware of the problems and are just as disillusioned with the way management have been "managing" - I don't begrudge them the lower hours, higher pay and final salary pension scheme - to be honest i'm just jealous!! What I do want is their support and acknowledgment that others have a rather bad end of a :mad: stick....

[Monarch Man]

Me to Scarebus, me to:ok:

I guess I must have run into just about all of them in the last few weeks. Please don't think I'm tarring all with the same brush, as it is evident that some of the comments and views I have witnessed lately represent a small proportion of the senior pilot workforce.
Personally, I think RS is in for a rough time, I even suspect that his position my become untenable.

[Office Pest]

Well having worked for Monarch for two years out of MAN on the airbus fleet all I would add is that I left Monarch for easyjet last year and it was the best desicion I ever made. For any of the new joiners like myself I would whole-heartedly recommend it. You may do more sectors but everyting else more than makes up for it.

Office Pest.

[EGGW]

I left 2.5 years ago, best move i made. I was there for 14 years, was an easy choice. With Bunny features at the helm, you will not get anywhere unless you all pull together.
Shame as the Spotty M has a great bunch of people upfront, shame its being destroyed by the toothy one.

Good luck....

EGGW

[nilcostoptionmyass]

Interesting one TEN DOLLAR, because the current differance in Monarch CAPTAINS pay and F/O's pay is less than a £1200 / month.

The company have been penny pinching from the staff for a few years now, only to 'announce' they are buying $900,000,000 worth of 787's.

Make no mistake the staff are fed up.

[teamilk&sugar]

I left 2.5 years ago, best move i made. I was there for 14 years, was an easy choice. With Bunny features at the helm, you will not get anywhere unless you all pull together.
Shame as the Spotty M has a great bunch of people upfront, shame its being destroyed by the toothy one

I don't think rather childish personal insults to individuals really adds anything to the debate.

Make no mistake Monarch Man et al; there is a stronger sense of unity within all ranks of seniority within the company than I have EVER seen in years.

For all our sakes, I hope the management also know this and deliver the goods as it will truely get ugly....and most certainly VERY costly.

[TEN DOLLAR]

nilcostoptionmyass - you're quite right, it is an interesting point earning
£1200+ take home more per month. As you say, that is similar money to a junior Monarch Captain. That's a hell of a lot of money more as a year 1 F/O without the Captains responsibility. £1200 per month is my mortgage per month. The simple fact is, I would not be able to afford my house if I was still at Monarch.

When comparing airline salaries it is not sufficient to look at the basic wage alone. At the end of the day it's actually what goes into your account at the end of the month that counts. My company's basic is only a few grand more. However it's the flight pay that makes all the difference. Flight pay is what the Monarch CC need to be pushing for. £2.52/hour away from base or whatever it is now, is bugger all on short haul at Monarch. For me it didn't even cover my petrol to work!!!!! :=

[EGGW]

I don't think rather childish personal insults to individuals really adds anything to the debate.


Yeah, but if it makes you laugh :p

Anyhow, i wish you luck. What is Balpa membership up to these days??? 75%, or better?

EGGW

[ZeBedie]

90% + I think

[EGGW]

WOW, that is a BIG change!! Now you may well stand a good chance.

EGGW

[Monarch Man]

The CC have the first of a series of meetings today:ok:

Should be verrrrrrrrrrrry interesting....there are more than a few fed up guys spoiling for a fight, and all to a man want to punish RS:E

[Scarebus321]

So I hear MM! If TJ and PB have any sense they will have made sure that RS has been plot changed to a morning TFS!! Although the truth is he's probably in Calgary:}

Let's hope that today management take this opportunity to send a positive message to the crews... and well done to the CC for finally getting their act together!

[Monarch Man]

Probably quite predictably, TJ has called the pilots new pay-claim "unsustainable" and closed the pay meeting inside 5 minutes.

Accordingly he then offered to conduct a "private" meeting with the CC Chairman and the Chief BALPA negotiator, which were refused.

Let the games begin:E

TJ, I trust you can read, we will win sonny jim we will win.

[Sphinx]

I was really p****d off with TJ's response. I hope if the next meeting is not conducted with more decorum in a transparent manner that the CC begin proceedings for a strike ballot.

Just in time for the beginning of the Summer season - NICE!!:E
If TJ thinks we haven't got it in us to strike he is seriously misjudging the mood this year.

[2engop]

Here, here.

[Scarebus321]

Bring it on!!!

[tubby linton]

Many years ago I was sent by Balpa head office(I don't know why),a copy of a leaflet entitled "A participants Guide to Industrial Action".Perhaps an updated copy could be circulated or posted because I think we are going to need it!!

[Easy Ryder]

TJ's response was insulting to say the least. :mad:

I'll happily strike if it comes to that without a second thought!

I'm sure the CC wont let this one drag out to October. If somthing substantial is not offered by the end of June we strike in July! Or was the busiest week in August according to the summer schedule.....:E

Better yet if he starts playing stupid games i think very slow taxiing is in order with fuel loads ooohhh a couple of tonnes in excess over plog, on CAVOK days, 3 tonnes ;) ......

Looking forward to the 10th.

[ZeBedie]

TJ has got it wrong! I'm champing at the bit to go on strike after that response.

[Arrestahook]

I pulled an advert out of an old Flight Intl for Flybe saying 'Come join us you don't have to sacrifice your lifestyle...etc, salaries: TRE/TRI up to £90K, Captains up to £80K & F/Os up to £50K'. Now that is "up to" and the reality could be different for new joiners but none the less bloody good salaries for a regional airline. Does this not make the sub £70K salary for a new Monarch Captain look pathetic?
I seem to remember the days of bench marking salaries / T&Cs against the likes of Britannia and how disgusted everyone was when it looked like management were using easyjet as the bench mark. Well easyjet have exceeded us in nearly every respect, so are we now aligning our selves with the turboprop operators? It certainly looks that way.
Think I will pin that advert up in the crew room just the see the effect it has.
Bring on the strike!

[A320 or bust]

Don't be fooled by the Flybe add. They are trying to plug their own holes in terms of pilot retention. That add is misleading, as I can assure you that a jet captain will be on under £60k.

As a jet F/O with them with 3 years servce I was on about £36k

[RAFAT]

Arrestahook - just to echo A320's comment, you will join Flybe on the DHC8-400 on £50k per annum. There are no Direct Entry jet Commands.

Sorry.

[Arrestahook]

Oh don't get me wrong I don't think I am fooled by the Flybe advert, but it does highlight the improvements that they have had to make to retain and attract new pilots after their mass exodus. Will the same happen in Monarch??

[DEFINED CONTRIBUTION]

BALPA Membership is very strong but everyone that joins or re-joins in the current climate helps to send a clear message to management. :D

[2engop]

There are still jet pilots out there in the UK that are worse off than Monarch so for some people it is still worth joining. These selection of airlines that don't have as good T+C's as Monarch is rapidly reducing though. Does Monarch really want to put themselves at the bottom of the list?

[nilcostoptionmyass]

The current management have presided over taking Monarch from nearly the top of the tree, where no one left because of pay / T's and C's to nearly the bottom of the market where very few F/o's stick around and rightly so, if you are on the airbus with Monarch you may as well go orange and get paid a darn site more.

The current (and brand new CEO out to show his boss how good he is) feels that staff moral and satisfaction are high from a few pleasantries being exchanged in the crew room, and that people are prepared to go that extra mile for the good of the company.

The company is operating on goodwill.

He is wrong.

[Sphinx]

I'd be interested to hear what MON pilots think of the latest rejection on the company's part to begin negotiations based on the payclaim submitted.

Personally I urge the CC to ballot for strike action immeidately.

[Monarch Man]

A bunch of two faced thieving ***kwits, but then that describes most airline management:yuk:

[Fuel Crossfeed]

Sphinx - I think that the rejection was always going to happen the company would never roll over that quick at the first meeting.
I was not there but did the company not offer a proposal to what they thought would be a suitable payrise and better T&C's, and if they didnt offer anything did the CC not ask for their thought before leaving the meeting?? By all accounts the meeting was all over by 5 mins.

[Polar_stereographic]

Just to add, as a year 2 FO, I take home 2600-2700. That is including all flight pay and NO contributions to the pension that is rubbish. If you want to see how this compares with other airlines, see http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=271434

There are no perks other than AXA medical cover, free uniform and allegedly staff travel. I've just booked my summer hols, and I get 85% discount on the ticket, the rest of the family 55%. The price they use is not the quoted internet price, but some other internal one. By the time they added apt, fuel surcharge (oh yes) etc, it worked out the same price as a BA ticket. Needless to say that is what I booked! Oh yes, you do get a free meal as 'staff'.

This years pay negotiations. PB, TJ and RS you have soo misjudged the feeling on the ground. That is two meetings that management have attended and would not even discuss the proposed pay deal, meeting closed after 5 minutes. Let me tell you that this co is heading for a serious industrial confrontation fairly quickly if this attitude continues. All it has done is to harden feelings among the troops, increase the BALPA membership, and in several cases mine included dusting down CV's. Gentlemen, have so misread the whole feeling on the ground.

MON used to be one of the TOP companies to work for. Still is in terms of most of the people I work with, however T&C's have been going down the proverbial 3 degree slope since RS took over, and have recently gone down the London City slope. It's not that long ago that resignations where unheard of, not now. The tally this year runs between 11 and 30 depending on your source, but either way I would not be surprised if that number increases steadily over the next few months. We gentlemen, are in danger of becoming (if not already) a training ground for VS, BA, EJ etc. rather than a career airline. RS, if you think that there is no cost to this, I beg to differ.

Good luck to the CC, you have my continuing support and that goes for everyone I have spoken to.

PS

[CanAV8R]

BA is spooling up hiring again for the training year. Latest we hear is 100 plus this year and with more 777's arriving late next year it is likely to continue.
If you want a considerable raise, better pension and roster stability that is second to none then give it a go. The rest of the perks are nice as well.

Monarch was a good employer to me and the people were great to work with but we all need to look after number one. If they are silly enough to think they can continue their ways on T's and C's then they appear to be fooling themselves. My big problem was the fact that the management did not seemed bothered that retirement was going to be bleak for the newbies.
Rumours around that certain certain foreign operators (LHR bases) are offerring skippers big dough on the 330/340. Any chance some of the trainers and senior chaps could be lured away?

[Monarch Man]

Rumours around that certain certain foreign operators (LHR bases) are offerring skippers big dough on the 330/340. Any chance some of the trainers and senior chaps could be lured away?

I wouldn't call myself SENIOR senior, but I have been at MON for a while, with that in mind I am rather happy to report that my notice of resignation was forwarded recently to Prospect House:ok:

Goodluck CC and my soon to be ex workmates, I've had enough and have voted with my feet.

[Easy Ryder]

Good luck MON MAN! we'll miss ya! :D

Hope it all works out for you :ok:

[tubby linton]

Monarch Man are you going to where life is Easy or best of British(Airways)?

[Monarch Man]

Sorry Tubby, I wont share that in a public forum until I'm out of my 6 month probationary period:) in case I make a muppet of myself, or more than usual that is! I can say however that neither Easy or Birdseed have the priviledge of my services, but it is a UK carrier with a rather colourful and charasmatic gentleman at its head :ok:

[Scarebus321]

Well done MM!!!
Best of luck - I think RS,TJ and PB could learn a whole lot from your new boss! Shame you are leaving at such an interesting time though!! One can only hope that if management continue to bury their heads in the sand...that they suffocate...:}

[Tight Seat]

Good luck MM, could I ask if you sat in the left or the righthand seat?

[G-AZUK]

one of the initiatives in this weeks 'Monline' is an invitation for Monarch Employees to email their questions to a director. This week its RS's turn...:}

[Fuel Crossfeed]

G-AZUK you might find that the email system will be like an A300 this week - broken!!

[Monarch Man]

Just took a phone call off quite a senior F/O who has just handed in his notice, could someone cancel the gas?

[Easy Ryder]

:} Where is he going?

[Scarebus321]

Well, it won't be bloody Malaga....

[Easy Ryder]

HAHA Touche! :E



uhhhh...... unless he went to EZ :cool:

[Arrestahook]

Just read polar stereos link to airline take home. £4000 for a year one BA F/O??? Thats more than a jnr Monarch Capt makes.
But what really made me want to be sick is £3000 pm for an F/O at Jet 2! Ah noooo no no no, I'm crying, I am the one that has had my head in the sand!
It's been fun and what a fantastic bunch of people but unless managment pull something quite spectacular out of the bag (which I doubt) it will be time to go else where.
Thanks PS for illuminating the quite incredible differential.

[Easy Ryder]

Yup makes you :yuk:

Note the hours flown by the Jet 2 driver as well.... 500hrs/yr

:mad:

CC - you did a great job with the new letter to TJ, looking forward to his reply.

[Office Pest]

Well Ladies and Gents,
Having worked for Monarch up until last November and now moved to pastures orange I would like to say the very best of luck with your negotiations.

Best Regards

Office Pest

[orangesky]

.. i am not sure the CC always use their heaviest bat when it comes to pay negotiations ....

it strikes me that MON is still very much in the dark ages when it comes to most things relating to crewing, communications, holidays, lifestyle etc etc. perhaps the "zero cost basis" has been around for much longer than people think ?? examples are :

* rosters which dont have a flight time total for the month

* nearing 90 hours in 28 days and calling up crewing to find out exactly how many hours your on and they cant tell you - you have to call somebody else !

* some feeble "scheduling agreement" where i have to fill in forms and claim "points" each time my duty is changed beyond a few hours to hopefully try and get a day off sometime

* crew not being able to access any information about their up coming flights to see who they flying with nor being able to request duty swaps
... anyway, i digress. coming back to the pay negotiations, my friends at other operators like thomas cook, jet 2, silverjet and XL all take home more than i do, and lets not even consider my friends at virgin and thomsonfly !
i would like to see no further decrease in the current conditions .... lest we end up paying to work !??!?!

i would like to see the introduction of some sort of factored sector pay (at jet2 for an F/O its in the region of GBP7) to reflect the difference between say a PMI and a TCP.

i would like to see a basic salary increase of more than say 2.7% lets remember that for the last 5 or 6 years inflation, but more importantly our "real" cost of living (council tax, heating, petrol etc etc) has far outstripped our meagre "increases", for those years we did get one ! the net effect is that we have probably "lost" GBP 5-10k in real terms over this period. what is going to be done to recoup this ?

i would like to see a new crewing/rostering system implemented with more functionality and one which enables me to have some control over my lifestyle, if other comparable airlines have systems which work why is it MON havent been able to find a system which they think will work ?
i would like to see staff travel improved ... if there are empty seats why can staff not just pay airport taxes and charges ? it would cost the company nothing but would be seen as something tangible ? often it is cheaper for me to book with another airline if i want to go to say spain for a few days ... when i know the MON flights will have 10+ seats available.

.... anyway, call me cynical but i suspect there will end up being some convoluted "agreement" made, hailed as a "victory" by the CC, which will be spread out over a few years, with us having to give up something in return ... all for what - perhaps a basic increase of 4.3% over 2 years ?!?!?
as a pilot i am not looking for a "victory", all i am looking for is a respectable remuneration package which keeps track with real living costs, respect and goodwill from my employer and some choice and flexability when it comes to lifestyle. when i compare myself to other "suitably educated" friends who are accountants, surveyors, architects, lawyers, dentists i realise just how degraded and poor the money and conditions have become and these dont take into account our 6 monthly sim checks, medicals, unsocial reporting hours or the dreaded 18-30 rest periods or the fact that we can lose our livelyhood much easier than any of these other professions.

... why is it that tube and train drivers earn more than most MON F/O's, have better conditions and their companies would never dream of closing a pay negotiations meeting after 5 mins ??? is it because they are prepared to show their frustration with industrial action - if so, perhaps thats a lesson we should learn from ... the only loser in that scenario would be Monarch, and their customers ....

[Bealzebub]

"I hear that even our Dreamliner options have been sold "

Is this indicative of the accuracy and quality of the rest of your reply ?

[MON321]

Scarebus321

"Whether or not the CC will accept a mediocre agreement is another matter"

Surely we all get a vote? There is no process that I'm aware of to allow the CC to accept or decline an offer on anyone's behalf. They just recommend an offer when they believe that they have got enough that most people wouldn't go on strike to get more. If (or more like when) they don't get an offer that meets people asprations then they can ballot for industrial action.

If you don't like what ends up being recommended then vote NO on your ballot paper and vote against the CC when they next stand. Either way posting misleading information on PPRUNE won't help.

[teamilk&sugar]

MON321
Completely agree.

Scarebus321
Although what you are saying has elements of truth in it - the way you are saying it makes you sound like a total ar$e. Take a chill pill and keep things in perspective.

[tubby linton]

Would you be able to elaborate on the 787 rumour Bealzebub?

[Bealzebub]

No, because it is all a load of twaddle by someone who has thought better of it and deleted their post.

[nilcostoptionmyass]

So, the management again refused to even discuss a payrise.

I fear industrial action is now on its way.

:ugh:

[unwiseowl]

So if there is a strike, where does that leave those pilots who are not members of BALPA?

[Engine overtemp]

So if there is a strike, where does that leave those pilots who are not members of BALPA?
Working or else they are in breach of contract and putting themselves at risk of dismissal as a result!

[unwiseowl]

So if we strike, what sort of relationship will exist between those who strike and those who work normally? How long will it take for things to get back to normal? Will it get nasty? Fellings are still very strong about the 1989 strike in Australia.

[hapzim]

Those non members do have the option to join, even if only for the short term.
That or thay can just continue to winge in the crew room about the way the company is not what it was, for the older hands, or for those who signed the newer contract on how much better their mates are being treated else where.
The company has lost out in terms and conditions and very much in life style since I joined. This we own you 27/7 outside your rostered days off and will try to mess you around as much as possible with roster changes, extended duties, a shortage of staff in most departments, meaning that all life away from Monarch becomes near impossible to organise. Or your just to knackered to do anything spending your time of trying to recover before it all starts again.
I personnally don't want to go down the strike route, but senior management(:mad: ) with thier childish and unproffesional attitudes are driving everyone in that direction.
Lets get back to where we look forward to going into work to get the aircraft with the fare paying pax to and from varied destinations, on time, safely and with a smile. Thats all they ask for.
Leadership and attitude start from the top and works its way down.

[ZeBedie]

If there are any pilots that work during a strike, they'll be as popular as a fart in a space suit! Joining BALPA is a no-brainer.

[teamilk&sugar]

Hapzim

Again...I agree with your comments....but you need to get a better spell checker mate !!;)

For those who are NOT in BALPA at the moment, I would certainly encourage you to join PDQ (even if for a short time), as our present head honch is trying to play hardball...(learnt from the Mick O'Learly school of management). It may have worked for him then, but I think he is in for a bit of a shock this time...!

The current "Top Floor" are seriously underestimating the ill-feeling and strong resolve of the pilots who are seriously pi$$ed off at the minute with how things are slowly turning to rat $h!te.

The worst thing is of course, one of the principle instigators of this is the present Ops director who was known to jump up and down vehemently when he was on the BALPA cc way back when, when things happened he didn't like, but now he sits in the other camp, and is all too happy to destroy the reputation and goodwill the pilots had with management and the company that has provided for him so well for so many years.

Sad days indeed...

:rolleyes:

[SHTTKR]

* nearing 90 hours in 28 days and calling up crewing to find out exactly how many hours your on and they cant tell you - you have to call somebody else !

Considering its somebody's job to track the hours , is that such an unreasonable request ?

[hapzim]

teamilk&sugar mon amie

If I could spell, a lawyer I would be, if numbers were my strenght, an accountant should I be, but me I'm just lowly aircrew, not respected by my management ;)

[TEN DOLLAR]

I'm in agreement that you guys should all go on strike. The T&C's at Monarch are nothing short of pathetic now. However the company will never be like " the good old days", even if you get success with a strike. Monarch is essentially a low cost operator now and I for one don't think I could have taken another 30 years of that kind of flying! (Man 320 to Malaga ump teen times a day:eek: ). So I believe the best solution for many of you guys especially if you are relatively young, is to vote with your feet and leave. It's simple, there are better jobs to be had out there and these companies are recruiting. Why wait until this recruitment bubble ends?

I know a great number of pilots who are quite happy to winge and moan about their current company but are too bone idle to apply for another job. Quite simply too lazy to put a few weeks work in, to pass selection into one of the majors. I for one thought that 2 weeks effort to get an extra £1500/mth take home and 13-15 days off was well worth the effort. Obviously some people have a different view!:confused:

I have always spoken highly of Monarch and enjoyed my time there, but have not regretted leaving for one minute. Even though it cost me £10,500 to leave in bond fees!

Best of luck to all of you if it comes down to a strike. One more thing, those that are not in BALPA should join post haste. It's not on to let your colleagues do all the fighting when everyone will benefit from any improvement in T&C's that BALPA may secure. :=

Cheers TEN DOLLAR.

[185 Lbs of Ballast!!]

Quote:
"Best of luck to all of you if it comes down to a strike. One more thing, those that are not in BALPA should join post haste. It's not on to let your colleagues do all the fighting when everyone will benefit from any improvement in T&C's that BALPA may secure. "

What if one is of the somewhat out of fashion point of view that both parties have signed a contract and that it should be honoured by both parties?

Lets leave aside a minute all the reasons given for the unrest etc and have a look at what I consider to be a basic principle of decent personal conduct.

I have, in the last 18 months, signed a contract of employment that is being honoured by my employer. I think, regardless of the provocation, I would be letting myself down if I were to break my contract.

Personally, I just fundamentally disagree with the principle. I suppose it's just not right.

Anyway, I imagine I'm in for a blasting as I realise this is not the way of the world today so my hard hat is deployed.....enjoy.:hmm:

[Splat]

185,

How can I put this mildly - TJ et al offer you a pay deal of RPI minus 50%, are you going to just sit back and work to that?

I think you need a slight reality check.

Splat

[MON321]

185 Lbs

You have an opinion, it's very noble and you're perfectly entitled to it. Could I ask you to consider that perhaps we all felt like that once? No one joins a company to engage in conflict with it. I'm sure we'd all be happier working for a progressive management, who genuinely engaged with their workforce to reach mutually beneficial solutions. Unfortunately we don't.

You feel that the company are honouring your contract, you're possibly not aware that there has been a very recent and underhanded attempt to fundamentally change your contract to include airport standby's. They appeared on the roster despite there being no provision in or contract for them and no discussion about the duration, frequency, facilities, allowances, or anything else. I for one don't want to spend the whole winter twiddling my thumbs in the crew room being paid no allowances and not being able to go to the terminal on my mobile. Do you consider this to be "decent personal conduct"? Without a robust response from BALPA you would be doing these soon.

Your stance on Industrial Action is not a valid excuse to sit back and let others spend time, effort and money to improve YOUR T&C's. Striking is the very last resort after an incredibly long process, which is regulated by law, and offers the company every opportunity to reach a negotiated settlement. The union is a DEMOCRACY and there will be no Industrial Action with out a majority vote by US, the everyday pilot workforce. The only way to have a vote is to join and then at least you can vote against a strike if it comes to it.

Presumably your strong moral stance, which I have already applauded, does not stretch to returning your pay and pension rise (which we have paid on your behalf to obtain) to the billionaire Monarch shareholders or the probable millionaire Monarch directors, because you don't approve of how it was obtained?

Whilst it’s obvious that I disagree with you, I hope you accept that this is no way intended to be a flaming, and I hope you feel able to reply to some of my points so that meaningful discussion can develop between members and non-members. We might all learn something.

[ZeBedie]

185lbs, I used to feel the same way, but time changed my attitude. I expect it will change your attitude too. And where do you think your terms and conditions would be without BALPA? Every pilot in this airline has a debt of gratitude to BALPA and its members. Where do you expect your terms and conditions to go if everyone takes the same attitude as you? If you work during a strike, you will be rewarded with ever-degrading terms of employment. Or you could leave. Or you could see what a future on McDonalds pay offers for you. But if you leave, will you not face similar choices to the one you're looking at now? Remember, the airlines shackle us with the seniority system, so we can't benefit from the normal economic forces of the labour market, like people in other professions. Most of us are stuck here!

[Splat]

SNAM,

The most I've had in allowances is around half that quoted in a good year. Maybe longhaul gets more, but don't count on that from the outset.

Pension - they will match your contribs up to 8% - not exactly that good compared to what others offer.

Staff travel -no one sees it as a benefit frankly, often BA is cheaper than a staff discounted ticket....

Agree with the rest.

Splat

[longarm]

£4000 per annum. As splat says this is not realistic for new starts and even guys who've been here years unless they are getting long haul. Over the course of the year then I would agree that half that figure would be more realistic (before tax).
As fo staff Travel. Please don't make me laugh!

[Fuel Crossfeed]

SNAM, Monarchs starting salary is £42305 for experienced pilots.
But it is flagging behind other operators. And soon to be on the backend of the drag curve!!

First choice - £47408 as from 22/12/06
Virgin - £45740 16/02/07
Thompsonfly - £45600 24/03/07
Globespan - £45580 01/04/07 B767 drivers
ThomasCook - £43556 07/01/07
BMI mainline - £43421 07/01/07
Mytravel - £42980 17/08/05

[Bealzebub]

£4000 per annum. As splat says this is not realistic for new starts and even guys who've been here years unless they are getting long haul. Over the course of the year then I would agree that half that figure would be more realistic (before tax).
As fo staff Travel. Please don't make me laugh!

£2000 a year before tax ? At an allowance rate that includes absolutely no voyage whatseoever, that would suggest you only complete about 749 duty hours a year ! That would be about 62 (average) duty hours a month ! About 6 flights a Month. Could you let me which fleet and base has such a cushy lifestyle as I need to transfer ?

My average flying hours for the last 10 years ( as far as this log book reaches) have been 610 hours ( lowest 570 highest 640 ) that equates to about 1600 hours duty ( flight duties / positioning / simulator). Although in my case it isn't, if that were all short haul with no night stops it would equate to £ 4200 PA ( which is what they advertise) ? In reality it is likely to be higher.

As for staff travel, well it depends on many things, not least the fact that the benefits improve the longer you work for the company. Last year I had two holidays for 7 people that were all firm and came to a total cost of £530. All the flights were free and the cost was for 21 room nights ! The retail value of this travel was £6150. If that is a joke, I was certainly laughing.

Staff travel -no one sees it as a benefit frankly, often BA is cheaper than a staff discounted ticket....


A family member works for BA, and in fact they often find that BA online is cheaper than their own (hotline) staff discounted tickets ! There are probably very few airlines where you will find this is not the case.

[Splat]

Bealzebub

I agree, duty hours may well be around 1600+, but if you fly say 600 hours a year, add a third to that, call it 780, thats all you'll get paid for at day rates, works out around 2k in my books. Add another £50 for the sim, I still can't get to the advertised 4k.

Splat

[Bealzebub]

Average allowances for a UK Malaga and back are about £24. For a UK canaries and back it is about £32. If you use a mean figure of £28 for an average day trip you would be averaging about 12 flights a month to achieve a figure of £4000. Of course this doesn't take into account all those dreadful taxi/coach journeys that accompany some of the duties but still add to the allowance total. Simulator details are paid at a voyage rate usually about £100 a time ( £200 a year), and of course night stops which vary significantly from fleet to fleet and attract a 20% higher rate.

I have never had less than £4000 in any year I have worked for Monarch and in all of those years significantly more. I am speaking from the viewpoint of a predominatly shorthaul 757 pilot. Once you get on the long haul fleets these figures will double and may even treble. My total allowances for 2007 have already exceeded the advertised figure and it is still only April. Obviously that is significantly higher than the average, or even my long term average, however a figure of £2000 pa or thereabouts is not really presenting an accurate picture.

A new pilot joining on the A320 or 757 at Manchester or Gatwick can expect a busy year. In the case of the 320 at Manchester a very busy year.

[factanonverba]

Mini Airbus driver, first three months this year and my total allowances are £840!

[tubby linton]

Any courses or simulator at base you get nothing for!Not even a cup of tea!Sometimes if the training has been poorly scheduled,you could end up going in to work on three different days to do crm,sep and tech.
Captains flying in the right-hand seat get nothing for doing so.Day-off payments are not over generous once the tax and Nat Insurance has been paid on them.If the company has had a good year you get a £25 voucher at Christmas.Medicals and license renewals are paid for but you may have to wait 4 weeks to get your money back from the company.
Quiet fleets (A300) don't make much in allowances and there is virtually no possibility of swapping fleets or base until you get offered a command.

[Splat]

Don't forget your metal lugage tag! The Orange brigade got two weeks salary in shares by way of a reward for a hard summers work.
I've never had voyage for sims, seem to average around 6 flights a month through the winter (Oct - Apr), historicaly had very little voyage if any. Last year only had a few days worth.
To be fair to Bealzebub, I think this converstion highlights the large differences within the company re salary and conditions depending on your base/fleet etc.

[whoopie]

I think £4000 is realistic, but that's not the point. Easy, Virgin, BA, Thomsonfly and others are all paid considerably more than this in terms of sector pay/hourly rate. This, coupled with certain tax advantages aasociated with productivity pay, leads to significant differences between take home pay.

Bealzebub, how do you get two free flights a year?

[Orange Budgie]

"I have never had less than £4000 in any year I have worked for Monarch and in all of those years significantly more. ... Once you get on the long haul fleets these figures will double and may even treble"

Bealzebub - what in Gods name are you smoking??

As Splat rightly points out, Bealzebub has perhaps stumbled on the wonderful anomolies of working for Monarch... I'm an FO at Man on the 320 and haven't had a sniff voyage for over a year. Over the winter I was working on aveage 8-12 flights a month and the summer .. well I try not to think about it!

Sector pay would make my lot a much happier one.. but then perhaps a 757 captain would moan about the huge unfairness of that - and try to sue the Union - This is despite the fact that he has every opportunity to take home a minimum of £4000 of lovely voyage per annum...Perhaps I should complain at working considerably more hours and not having any opportunity to get any voyage... and my "effective" hourly rate being half of that of some lucky guys struggling on 400 hours a year.. But that would only make me bitter and twisted..;)

Instead I put my full force behind our CC who have come up with a well thought out and fair proposal which is trying to help alleviate some of those anomolies. It's not perfect - but it is a very big step in the right direction. However, our mangement have shown their true colours by not even having the good manners to enter into discussions..

[ZeBedie]

Our competitors get much higher pay, when allowances and sector pay are taken into account.

[Fanatic]

Have lurked for many years but what I have read today has driven me to respond!
Bealzebub, some posts here are exaggerated but yours takes the biscuit:
"12 flights a month averaging £28 split equally between Canaries and Spain." So that's 50% 8 hours and 50% 5 to be pessimistic. Average 6.5 hours X 12 X 12 equals 936 hours. Oops
That is why:
a) Even at MAN one can struggle to make £4000
b) 10/28 D/O is realistically possible on a no cost basis
As for your staff travel story, please tell us exactly how you saved £5620 on an outlay of £530? One of the 2 holidays/flights is LH offering max £600 off the BROCHURE price so, allowing for that, you must have saved £5020 on your short haul deal. Assuming none of your £530 went on the LH holiday (yeah right), 40% off means your total price of your SH deal must be £883, or you found some SH flights for £717 for each or the 7 of you. Please show me where my sums went wrong.
Monarch Basic pay is not actually that bad but without sector pay/profit share of EZY, hourly rate of VS, share options of FCA etc. plus pension deals of them all, the total financial remuneration is no longer remotely competetive.
Lets not even talk about
Scheduling agreement
Roster stability
18-30 hours rest
18+hour duty days

[Alloy]

Apparantly Bealzebub, your confirmed staff travel ticket is no longer confirmed...............:*

[Bealzebub]

Well boys & girls, I have exagerrated nothing ( why would I need to ?), and have the yellow sheets in a drawer here to prove it. The yellow sheets were the record of how much we paid on daily flights and voyages, up until a couple of years ago when their use ( and method) was phased out for day flights. We still use them for voyage, but day flight allowances are now payroll items on a monthly basis.

As for the staff travel it was one long haul concession and one short haul concession for my family in accordance with the current rules. If you would like to PM me I will tell you exactly how it was done. By the way they were firm seat tickets and that is what happened.

Perhaps if your maths and the logic attached were not so distorted them upstairs might take you a bit more seriously as well ?

[Monarch Man]

Perhaps if your maths and the logic attached were not so distorted them upstairs might take you a bit more seriously as well ?

Not that it matters to me anymore, but, that comment is a bit pathetic Bealzebub, and IMHO totally unfounded.
MAYBY if management weren't so interested in lining their own pockets with end of year profit related bonuses, and were a little more realistic with their interpretation of the mood of the troops, they wouldn't be having to face the threat of industrial action this summer:=

[ZeBedie]

Bealzebub, you are "them upstairs", clearly.

[Easy Ryder]

"Bealzebub, you are "them upstairs", clearly."

No doubt....

[Bealzebub]

Bealzebub - what in Gods name are you smoking??

If the average annual allowances (£2000 ?) are indicitive of an average working week of only 16 hours, then the answer would have to be that I am obviously smoking the tyres ! Please tell me which fleet offers this 16 hour working week because I really do want to know ? :ugh:

"12 flights a month averaging £28 split equally between Canaries and Spain." So that's 50% 8 hours and 50% 5 to be pessimistic. Average 6.5 hours X 12 X 12 equals 936 hours. Oops

I think you have seriously misunderstood. The £28 was the average. How many 5 hour duties do you do a month ? Positioning between LGW & MAN and airlining back takes longer than that ! If your average daily duty period is 6.5 hours and the shortest realistic Spanish schedule is 8 hours for duty pay purposes, where are you going to ? Remember you get paid for the pre flight duty period, the turnaround and 30 minutes post flight period. Not to mention any pre flight or post flight positioning. If the duty period takes you 1 minute into the next hour you get another full hours allowance. If you still maintain that your annual allowances only amount to £2000 then I am wondering why you are being worked so lightly ? 16 total duty hours a week is below a part timers hours and would be surpassed if your total working week (47 weeks a year) only ever amounted to a LGW return Alicante and a LGW return Malaga a week ! but then as you say.."Oops!"

Bealzebub, you are "them upstairs", clearly.

No I am not ! Is there a correlation between anyone who questions what they perceive to be total nonsense and their assumed position in the company hierarchy ? If there is, then it suggests a certain naivety, but perhaps serves to illustrate the status quo ?

[Monarch Man]

If there is, then it suggests a certain naivety, but perhaps serves to illustrate the status quo ?

Actually No, what it serves to illustrate is that comments can be misconstrued, it also shows Bealzebub that you appear not to be concerned about the situation facing the status quo.
So here are several questions for you.

1. Can you honestly look at the current T & C's and answer that they represent a competitive package in relation to the present market place?

2. What represents a "sensible" settlement in your view?

3. Are you able to dispel/explain the overwhelming levels of support being offered to the present CC in relation to the current pay claim? and FWIW the anecdotal evidence suggests current balpa membership is close to 90% of the pilot workforce.

4. Finally, how have Prospect house, and previous CC's allowed this to happen? perhaps the close nature of the relationship between the previous CC Chairman and the current Ops director? or perhaps the ineffective or secretive approach to negotiations in private meetings etc that led to allegations of dishonesty, and a total lack of confidence in the process shown by members?

[Bealzebub]

Actually No, what it serves to illustrate is that comments can be misconstrued, it also shows Bealzebub that you appear not to be concerned about the situation facing the status quo.
Unless you are referring to the band "Status Quo", the term is defined as "the existing state of affairs" not a person or group of people, so I do not understand what you mean by the situation facing the Status Quo in either context, much less why I should be concerned about it ?

I joined in this thread to question the assertion that the level of annual allowances averaged only £2000 a year, and that staff travel was "a joke". My reply was based on the factual and documented evidence ( in the case of the former) going back many, many years. This is a public forum and if we are projecting a picture to the wider world, then it should at least be balanced and in my contention, accurate. That reply was challenged as inaccurate and exagerrated. I offered the protaganists details by private message if they wanted ( as I consider them confidential within the wider arena), they didn't reply. I can prove average allowances going back over many years but that is detail none of them want ?

If there is a point to be argued fine, but to then dovetail it into something else because you don't like the answer is disingenous, and as I previously stated naive and probably indicitive of wider issues ?

On to your point. I will attempt to honestly answer your questions :

1. Can you honestly look at the current T & C's and answer that they represent a competitive package in relation to the present market place?

Who's terms & conditions ? Mine, yours, new joiners over the last 2 years who get an entirely different set. I think mine are competitive when I consider what is available to me in other UK companies and in those companies that are recruiting overseas. If I thought I could do a lot better for myself and my family somewhere else, I would have done. Other people have chosen to do just that. Some of those people are pleased with their decision, some are not.

2. What represents a "sensible" settlement in your view?

Here is a loaded question if ever there was one, but go on I will bite. Last year I made a comfortable standard of living. This year if inflation is applied to the same figure, then the same will hold true. Inflation is a very personal thing and varies from one person to the next. However government figures are usually utilized to provide at least the governments picture and thereby one version of a mean ( two definitions) figure. Would I trade present benefits or contractual arrangements for more money ? Maybe. Would I like more renumeration in excess of inflation ? Yes.

3. Are you able to dispel/explain the overwhelming levels of support being offered to the present CC in relation to the current pay claim? and FWIW the anecdotal evidence suggests current balpa membership is close to 90% of the pilot workforce.

I cannot dispel or explain the support being offered to the present CC in relation to the current pay claim. I would suggest that since we have a two tier pay and benefits structure that was introduced a couple of years ago, those that accepted the lesser contracts would by now have become dissatisfied with those agreements. I do not know what the anecdotal evidence suggests with regards to BALPA membership. If it helps at all you can ask them for the actual membership number, then divide 100 by the number of pilots in the company and multiply that figure by the number of members. You will then have an accurate percentage and will no longer have to rely on anecdotes.

4. Finally, how have Prospect house, and previous CC's allowed this to happen? perhaps the close nature of the relationship between the previous CC Chairman and the current Ops director? or perhaps the ineffective or secretive approach to negotiations in private meetings etc that led to allegations of dishonesty, and a total lack of confidence in the process shown by members?

I am sorry, I am not sure if this a question for me or simply rhetoric ? Perhaps you should ask them ? If by "this" you mean the revised terms & conditions for new joiners over the last couple of years, then you might also consider that the company now employs many more "very low experience" pilots than it historically did. It feels it needs to compete with other "low cost" carriers who do the same. Obviously this has a significant advantage for low experienced pilots looking for that first job, but is not such good news for experienced pilots and ex-air force pilots who now have to compete in this brave new world. It now seems that many of these new carriers expect their new First Officers / Second Officers to pay for their own type ratings and in some cases their own line training. Why is this allowed to happen ? Why is there no longer a requirement for more experienced First officers ? Call me cynical but I expect it is because there is a serious shortage of experienced pilots to fill these seats. Shortage of supply in a market raises the price and value of the commodity. In other words up goes wages. How about simply doing without these right seat pilots at all ? Good idea, but the manufacturers and the regulators simply refuse to allow it. Second best idea is to find a cheaper source namely those with levels of experience that would not have been normally employed in previous years. Plenty of supply here. Not only that, but they will self subsidize their own employment. Of course once the novelty wears off and reality sets in and those same pilots do become more "experienced" they begin to resent the contracts they themselves signed. The ex air force pilots and the experienced job changers who also had to accept the new contracts to remain in contention, also (naturally) resent the situation. Maybe that explains the status quo. If that same source of new pilots looking to get a foothold has dried up overnight ( and lets be honest it hasn't) then employers will be forced to pay higher real term wages.

However my own viewpoint is not only is that not the case, but the situation will year by year pervade further up both of the seniority lists until in a a few years time the transformation is complete. Some of us did recognise and point this out at the time but it was a situation that we were individually likely to stay one step ahead of.

So there is more for the masses to howl and protest at, but it is my honest opinion, and that is what you asked for.

[Monarch Man]

Thanks Bealzebub, my apologies for the loaded question, and to your credit you didn't bite.

Then again, comments such as
So there is more for the masses to howl and protest at, but it is my honest opinion, and that is what you asked for
Bely the sentiment behind your opinion, fair enough I guess, its also probably the reason I am off to pastures new.

Then again, why should you "be all right Jack?", there are plenty of guys with double digit seniority that feel differently to you and have seen their own personal situation deteriorate in real terms. It is also true to say that the guys before even you Bealzebub worked hard to make sure the place was a competitive environment, but is that not worth injecting that into the debate..which BTW includes staff travel concessions.

In any case, you have your view, the majority have theirs.

[ZeBedie]

So there is more for the masses to howl and protest atSorry, that still sounds like pure management speak to me.

[Bealzebub]

Then again, why should you "be all right Jack?", there are plenty of guys with double digit seniority that feel differently to you and have seen their own personal situation deteriorate in real terms. It is also true to say that the guys before even you Bealzebub worked hard to make sure the place was a competitive environment, but is that not worth injecting that into the debate..which BTW includes staff travel concessions.

Because I joined at a different period in history, when you couldn't join with such low general levels of experience. Not just here but anywhere. That was the case for nearly all pilots. At the time the larger airlines were able to satisfy their recruitment from the airforce and from the general market experience ladder (a few rungs higher up). If I were seeking the same employment today it would be a different story. What you term the "allright jack" concept is not much different from the people who now own mansions because they entered the property market 30 years ago. If you accepted a contract with inferior terms & conditions as many have done in numerous long established airlines, I understand the reasons. However if you thought you would accept them and reality would then change for you a couple of years down the road, well what can I say !

That there are pilots with double digit seniority who feel differently to me is not in contention. I do not recall suggesting there wasn't ? That others worked hard for a competitive environment including staff travel is again undisputed. However again the point is being ignored in order to dovetail into other aspects.

In any case, you have your view, the majority have theirs.

So there is me with my views and the majority with theirs ? :)
I accept my views might be a minority within a specific group, or even within the interested population generally but that doesn't change the factual points, the history or the counterpoint. Are this majority not also made up of individuals with their own views ideas and opinions ? I suspect they are.

Sorry, that still sounds like pure management speak to me.
Honestly ZeBedie it isn't and I am not, but if it helps believe what you like.

Then again, comments such as

Quote:
So there is more for the masses to howl and protest at, but it is my honest opinion, and that is what you asked for

Bely the sentiment behind your opinion, fair enough I guess, its also probably the reason I am off to pastures new.

If my comments have caused you to leave the company since 8 pm this evening then I am truly shocked and would be happy to delete them if it makes you reconsider such a drastic course of action ? :eek:

[Monarch Man]

That there are pilots with double digit seniority who feel differently to me is not in contention. I do not recall suggesting there wasn't ? That others worked hard for a competitive environment including staff travel is again undisputed. However again the point is being ignored in order to dovetail into other aspects.


And rightly so! this is all part of the bigger picture is it not? or are you happy to compartmentalize those who don't fit your "different period in history" casting them aside in your own self interest?

What you term the "allright jack" concept is not much different from the people who now own mansions because they entered the property market 30 years ago

Really? I thought we were talking about MON T&C's, not property speculation.

I understand the reasons. However if you thought you would accept them and reality would then change for you a couple of years down the road, well what can I say !

The reality as you put it, is that the market has moved on, and MON has been able through poor BALPA representation, along with some not too subtle zero cost options, has been able to mitigate against any substantial and competitive T&C improvements, moreover the new joiner package has been watered down by the split level of remuneration, and the attitudes of individuals such as yourself Bealzebub.
The reality is Bealzebub that you are in a minority, you know it, and I know it.

So there is me with my views and the majority with theirs ? :)
I accept my views might be a minority within a specific group, or even within the interested population generally but that doesn't change the factual points, the history or the counterpoint. Are this majority not also made up of individuals with their own views ideas and opinions ? I suspect they are.

You said it :}

[Arrestahook]

B-Bub, points taken well argued, I think you missed your calling as a lawyer.
But your attitude of 'you signed it you live with it' is not helping our cause. We were effectively blackmailed into signing the 01/11/04 contracts (see my early post for full story) and the market at the time dictated that sensibly we had to because there was simply very few jobs on offer elsewhere.
I hesitate to bitch and moan about my current contract because I did sign it. But I would however like to see a significant improvement in it before the vast majority of my compatriots hit 2500 hrs and head for better paid jobs.
It would be a shame because believe it or not I do feel a loyalty to the company that gave me my break and I wouldn't want to see it come to that. There is going to be a lot more work for those left behind.
I would have thought that its also in your interest that experienced F/Os choose to stay in the company because if Mon turn into the training airline that its heading for then like it or not every line Captain will effectively be a trainer.

[CanAV8R]

Either way you look at it lads, the facts are the facts.
If you want to make more money (25%+) in your wallet every month leave Monarch.
If you want more money for your pension (see above), leave Monarch.
If you want very stable roster stabilty and choice :eek: , leave Monarch.
If you want better staff travel benefits leave Monarch.
Great company and great people but the new contract is the near the bottom of the UK for T's and C's. The music is playing so if yer gonna jump do it before it stops!

[MON321]

Bealzebub

You've made it clear, in this thread and others, that you hold all of your colleagues that had to join under the new contact in utter distain, who deserve everything that they (don't) get in terms of remuneration, but is the quote from you below really your attitude towards First Officers? If so I invite you to put your name to it.

"How about simply doing without these right seat pilots at all ? Good idea, but the manufacturers and the regulators simply refuse to allow it."

[Bealzebub]

Irony isn't lost on you is it ! :}

If you go back and read it again perhaps you will see what I meant within the context of the whole paragraph. If you still have trouble PM me and I will explain.

You've made it clear, in this thread and others, that you hold all of your colleagues that had to join under the new contact in utter distain, who deserve everything that they (don't) get in terms of remuneration

Well since I do not, and I think the word you are looking for is "disdain", you are distorting reality to suit your own indignation. I would be delighted to see you get better remuneration and improved terms & conditions. I would be just as pleased to see the new terms and conditions substituted with the old ones. I would like to see the old pension plans reopened to everybody. I was commenting on this "brave new world" and how it came about. How once the old contractees (such as myself) have been pensioned off, then the transformation will be complete. Most other people who responded may have disagreed in part or whole, but I think they understood the gist.

It is not impossible to vary contracts or in some cases to have them judged invalid. New contracts can be substituted for old ones. It doesn't really matter what the contract is, employment, sale & purchase, marriage. There may be different rules and protocols but most are written to protect the seller. It is always wise to know what you are entering into, and fully understand the terms you are agreeing to. The problem is that later it may be very difficult to renegotiate, break or vary a contract that was written for the sellers benefit.

The problem is that saying " I was desperate for a job", " I didn't fully appreciate the terms", "other people are getting more than I am", etc.etc. Is very interesting and I do have some degree of sympathy ( as I said previously, we saw this coming ), but it simply doesn't change the facts. It doesn't matter how angrily you respond to my comments or how much you jump up and down moaning about anything, everything and everyone. The answer to your problem (if there is one) may very well be embedded in the very thing you are railing against. If that is the case you would need to be very focused and I am not seeing a great deal of that in some of these replies.

[TEN DOLLAR]

Quit moaning and get your CV's out before it's too late!!

[Monarch Man]

Twas done months ago Mr 10 Dollar.

Bealzebub, it is interesting you make the observation
The problem is that saying " I was desperate for a job", " I didn't fully appreciate the terms", "other people are getting more than I am", etc.etc. Is very interesting and I do have some degree of sympathy ( as I said previously, we saw this coming ), but it simply doesn't change the facts.
seems to show you are resigned to living with the current state of affairs, or that those amongst the current crop of MON pilots who are on inferior contracts of employment should somehow just accept their fate.

On a the point 321 made, I would disagree slightly, I don't believe you hold your new contract colleagues with disdain, but rather you hold them with a rather aloof sense of inferiority to yourself. You also appear to contend that as a matter of contractual practice, employment contracts are non negotiable entities, or at the very least, protected beyond the realms of collective bargaining. Perhaps Bealzebub, that may exist in your own version of reality, or in your own personal interpretation of the present situation, it does not reflect the view point nor the reality of the MON BALPA membership:=
But you knew that already didn't you :hmm:

[Portside]

Monarchman,
If you have left Monarch, I suggest you keep quite and stop winding people up with your reterich. You have no say on my future, You have no vote!!

I will vote when the time comes on my future with Monarch when I know all the facts. At this moment I am quite happy.

Beazlebub,
Thanks for keeping this thread focused. A sensible head.

Portside

[Monarch Man]

Thanks portside for your kind words, but I haven't left yet:=
I still have a vote:=
I'm happy to have a say in your future:E

I will vote when the time comes on my future with Monarch when I know all the facts. At this moment I am quite happy.

And its nice to see Bealzebub has a friend;) even if its a new joiner with just over a months PPrune membership:rolleyes:

[MON321]

Bealzebub

Thank you for correcting my understanding (and spelling) in your usual long winded, superior and condescending manner. I've no idea how I could have missed the irony and interpreted your comments to portray you as arrogant and self righteous.

[Portside]

Thanks for showing your true colours MM. I hope your new colleagues at the Orange place also take note of your comradeship, and values!

Portside.

[Monarch Man]

You are more than welcome Mr Portside, I AM CERTAIN the majority of my collegues will value my input.
BTW who said I was off to Orange land? its news to me

[Portside]

"Sorry Tubby, I wont share that in a public forum until I'm out of my 6 month probationary period:) in case I make a muppet of myself, or more than usual that is! I can say however that neither Easy or Birdseed have the priviledge of my services, but it is a UK carrier with a rather colourful and charasmatic gentleman at its head :ok:"

Apologies MM, for getting the wrong airline.
One of your previous posts above.

Seems to me then, your not actually on the pay role yet, let alone a probationary period. I`m sure the charasmatic gentleman and his staff have made a wise choice???

Miss Piggy!

Sincerely though, Safe flights wherever you are going, and all the very best.
Portside

[whoopie]

The "if you don't like it stop moaning and f@>£ off somewhere else" attitude is not always a real option. Like many of my colleagues I have invested a considerable number of years with Monarch and can neither afford nor wish to start at the bottom of another seniority list in the right seat, or up root my family to another place. The alternative option is to strive for better terms through robust union negotiation and membership. Comments like that are quite frankly ill founded, pathetic, and clearly intended to antagonise rather than add to the debate. We all know how the system works so why waste your time posting rubbish.

[Bealzebub]

Monarch Man you stated that :
Bealzebub, it is interesting you make the observation

The problem is that saying " I was desperate for a job", " I didn't fully appreciate the terms", "other people are getting more than I am", etc.etc. Is very interesting and I do have some degree of sympathy ( as I said previously, we saw this coming ), but it simply doesn't change the facts.

seems to show you are resigned to living with the current state of affairs, or that those amongst the current crop of MON pilots who are on inferior contracts of employment should somehow just accept their fate.
When what I actually said was :
The problem is that saying " I was desperate for a job", " I didn't fully appreciate the terms", "other people are getting more than I am", etc.etc. Is very interesting and I do have some degree of sympathy ( as I said previously, we saw this coming ), but it simply doesn't change the facts. It doesn't matter how angrily you respond to my comments or how much you jump up and down moaning about anything, everything and everyone. The answer to your problem (if there is one) may very well be embedded in the very thing you are railing against. If that is the case you would need to be very focused and I am not seeing a great deal of that in some of these replies.

Interesting the bits you selectively choose to ignore ? The problem with simply raging against everyone and everything is that it completely weakens the core of the arguement. It makes you look unfocused and irrational. If I were required to negotiate with somebody who displayed these traits, the meeting would be terminated until such time as they cooled down and focused themselves on the points. Does any of this sound vaguely familiar to you ?

In fact ( condescension, arrogance and aloofness aside ) , I wrote :
It is not impossible to vary contracts or in some cases to have them judged invalid. New contracts can be substituted for old ones. It doesn't really matter what the contract is, employment, sale & purchase, marriage. There may be different rules and protocols but most are written to protect the seller. It is always wise to know what you are entering into, and fully understand the terms you are agreeing to. The problem is that later it may be very difficult to renegotiate, break or vary a contract that was written for the sellers benefit.
and :
I would be delighted to see you get better remuneration and improved terms & conditions. I would be just as pleased to see the new terms and conditions substituted with the old ones. I would like to see the old pension plans reopened to everybody.

Something Monarch Man interprets as :
You also appear to contend that as a matter of contractual practice, employment contracts are non negotiable entities, or at the very least, protected beyond the realms of collective bargaining.

Unfortunetaly you give the impression of being an individual so fired up with your own sense of outrage and indignation whilst wrapping yourself up in the cloak of mob agreement, that you simply refuse to see, and certainly to understand what is being said.

I hope you have a great time at Virgin (you frequently allude to going to a new company with a charismatic owner ?) and wish you well for the future. However many of us will still be working here and seeking to make both the company a success and our own futures a success. There is nothing funda mentally wrong with "looking after number one". Then again nobody really needs to tell you that, do they Monarch Man ? :rolleyes:

[qwertyuiop]

Surely that must be game set and match to Bealzebub!!!!!

[Monarch Man]

Well Bealzebub, it would appear that you and I take a diametrically opposed viewpoint when it comes to summing an issue up.

First and foremost, we ARE NOT negotiating here, we are however exploring the relative merits of each others arguments.
Thus far you have taken a view that IMHO lacks any passion, conviction, or indeed ambition, you appear yet again happy to maneuver yourself in such a way that takes nothing away from your own position, and yet paradoxically concede that you would be happy to see an improvement in the "newer" contracts..I would ask which is it?
Your approach BTW also says an awful lot more about yourself and your personal history than needs to be discussed here.
As regards to the impression I give, that is entirely up to you, I can however assure you that my motivation is based on the history of backroom discussions, lack of candor, and a general lack of accountability from previous CC's
So Bealzebub I guess if the cap fits, we can both wear it, please however don't accuse me of making my arguments selective. I have only ever highlighted the points YOU have raised, and my interpretation of such points is focused squarely on the issues that affect us all.
Predictably B, my points won't sit well with your more clinical view of things, but then again so what? I am confident that my views are far more representative than yours are ever likely to be....but then again you knew that already.
As for my new employer, take 15-20 years off yourself Beazlebub, substitute said younger version of ones self into todays world and ask the question, what would you do?
When all is said and done this discussion boils down to a rather simple question, are MON T & C's competitive in todays job market?
Bealzebub, Q Top, and Mr Portside would appear to think so:hmm: A quick glance at the membership website would suggest otherwise, along with a chat with virtually all line pilots (old and new contracts) you would care to mention.

[Easy Ryder]

WOW i bet TJ and other top floor management are loving what this threads turned into.......

Some in-fighting and toy throwing amongst collegues.

They must be laughing with glee - with less than a month of negotiating the workforce, or maybe just a few bored individuals, have turned this into a them and us yawn fest... with toys flying without abandon.

Divide and conquer......

Then again reading the BALPA forums and the sentiment within, it seems the top floor should be concerned.

[Bealzebub]

MM,
I rather feel you are simply arguing for its own sake. A lot of what you say is completely contradictory and makes no sense. In so doing it only dilutes the merit of whatever your point happens to be. For example :
Thus far you have taken a view that IMHO lacks any passion, conviction, or indeed ambition, you appear yet again happy to maneuver yourself in such a way that takes nothing away from your own position, and yet paradoxically concede that you would be happy to see an improvement in the "newer" contracts..I would ask which is it?

I don't think anybody ( whether they agree or not ) really views a lack of passion, conviction or ambition in my viewpoint since I have spent a considerable amount of time trying to put it across factually and without wild emotional swings. Why would I want to take anything away from my own position ? After all isn't it that very same position that you are now championing and seeking ? Why is it a paradox that I would be pleased to see better terms & conditions for people on the new contracts ? Such an achievement would be a good thing and would not adversely affect me at all. It does rather smack of hypocrisy to tell somebody who has spent over 2 decades contributing to the companies success, and who will continue to do so, that their view lacks any conviction or ambition, whilst you are preaching from your pedestal made of another airlines operating manuals !

Perhaps that is why I keep the argument clinical and focused, because what ever the future will hold for this company, I like many others here will still be a part of it !

15 or 20 years ago, people were even then leaving the company to go to Virgin, B.A, Cathay Pacific and others, so in that respect nothing has changed. In many of those same companies the terms & conditions of employment have changed over the years and their appeal may be restricted to a certain age or seniority group as a result. That group clearly includes you, and as I said good luck to you.

Whilst I am happy to answer any questions that are relevant, I cannot address these rhetorical diatribes that you keep falling back into, concerning "backroom discussions", "lack of candour" and "the accountability of previous CC's", as it has nothing to do with me and needs to be addressed to the parties concerned.

Bon voyage.

[Monarch Man]

Beazlebub, I have to hand it to you:ok:, a rather impressive effort at showing yourself to be a contrite colleague friendly member of the team.
I can't help thinking comments such as
If you accepted a contract with inferior terms & conditions as many have done in numerous long established airlines, I understand the reasons. However if you thought you would accept them and reality would then change for you a couple of years down the road, well what can I say !
shows the actual reality of your thoughts.
BTW the way the rhetorical diatribes you allude too are mere statements of fact, they are in a sense cause and effect, after all, if all was peachy at the shop, why are the troops upset?

15 or 20 years ago, people were even then leaving the company to go to Virgin, B.A, Cathay Pacific and others, so in that respect nothing has changed. In many of those same companies the terms & conditions of employment have changed over the years and their appeal may be restricted to a certain age or seniority group as a result.

OOOOps, did you forget to answer the question? or was it just easier to waffle on a bit about nothing specific?
As I said, put yourself in my shoes for a moment.

On this point....
Perhaps that is why I keep the argument clinical and focused, because what ever the future will hold for this company, I like many others here will still be a part of it !
Very easy to say for a man in your position, as you have quite clearly stated previously, you are doing quite nicely.

It does rather smack of hypocrisy to tell somebody who has spent over 2 decades contributing to the companies success, and who will continue to do so, that their view lacks any conviction or ambition, whilst you are preaching from your pedestal made of another airlines operating manuals !

I can't disagree, which is why I haven't done it. I have taken issue with the appearance of your singular lack of empathy for those people who wish to improve their presently poor T&C's though legitimate means. I have taken issue with your condescending attitude, and your self righteous indignation at being scrutinized when it comes to the present situation.
I cannot question your loyalty to MON, if as you say you have given 20 years of service, I can however question your motives because it is rather clear to me that you have little room in your professional heart for anyone other than yourself.
As for preaching from another companies Ops manuals, well I guess I'll consign that remark to the appropriate filing cabinet. Nice:yuk:

[Bealzebub]

MM,
Emotive clap trap, I have nothing further to add. :bored:

[Monarch Man]

Interesting answer Beazlebub, other peoples futures are emotive claptrap?

Enjoy your continued service:ok:

[unwiseowl]

We may well be going to have to strike. Bealzebub will work through the strike. No doubt he's about 55 and has his hands on his FS pension. He doesn't give a damn about anyone else. He'll work through the strike. We can do without that selfish minority, but will he sleep at night? Do we care?

[Arrestahook]

Bealezebub I would imagine it is a no brainer to give 'twenty years of service' to Monarch when they had the best pension in the industry and the second best salary when you joined.

Would you still be there if they had offered you an 8% for 8% DC pension when you joined?

I don't think most of us actually WANT to leave, but Monarch have fallen so far behind particularly in terms of remuneration and pensions that to stay for a career would be dooming ourselves to poverty in our retirement and thats saying nothing of the £1000 a month less in the mean time that you can make almost anywhere else for a similar job.

I think these guys are showing loyalty by sticking around to see if things will improve, where any accountant would be telling them they are mad.