Hawker Hunter Control Column

[Control Column]

Hi all,
This is my first post so I will apologise now for any transgressions I may make.
Please be gentle with me.
I’m not sure if this is the correct forum for this but I am looking for advice, direction or suggestions (no it wouldn’t fit) for a project I have embarked upon in my old age.
Many years ago, circa 1967 – 69, I acquired a control column from a Hawker Hunter (please don’t ask). I am now hoping that the markings on it can lead to identifying the particular a/c it was fitted to.
Before I get too carried away, do any of you learned gentlemen/ladies think this is a viable proposition. I have seen aviation archaeology on the telly where they dig up bits of metal, scrape off the mud, find a number and say ‘Ah! This proves it was Spitfire LF Mk Vb xxx…’ Of course, they start with a known a/c and matched the bits to go with it. I suspect this is easier than having a bit(?) and finding a whole aircraft to go with it eh?
I have placed several photographs and more information on my website www.geocities.com/control.column (http://www.geocities.com/control.column) for anyone interested. I thought that would be better than trying to cram it in here.
Many thanks in anticipation.

[682al]

As a collector of these things, I have the following types recorded against AC14728:
Hunter Mk. F Mk. 6, T7, T8, GA9, FR Mk. 10, GA11 and GA12
I doubt whether you will be able to get closer to the actual airframe serial from the info listed on your site.
If you know where/when/how the grip came to be liberated from the airframe, someone may be able to come up with suggestions for a serial number.
Good luck!

[virgo]

I remember visiting a little private museum several years ago which specialised in military artifacts and memorabilia. In the the very small "Air-war" section I was impressed by the ingenuity of the curator trying to make the best of a very limited display.
In one corner there was a pile of bent black painted light-alloy........identified as, "BELIEVED to be part of a He 111 shot down locally during the battle-of-Britain" and in a glass case, a soup plate bearing the broad arrow of the War Department with the descriptive card......."THOUGHT to have been used by Douglas Bader for his Brown Windsor soup the night before he was shot down." (My capitals)

So there you are CC, ............."THOUGHT TO BE "......... the control column of the prototype Hunter.........or the one that flew through Tower Bridge.....or Neville Duke's speed record - no! you can't have that, it's in the Tangmere collection !................how about, "the highest scoring Indian Air Force Hunter ?"
Don't let your desire for authentication get in the way of a good story !

[Control Column]

Thanks for the info AL. I always thought it would be a long shot. Someone who worked in the stores at Dunsfold gave it to me after it had come to the end of its useful life. As, sadly, has he.
Is the number AC14728 a generic part number and found on all grips fitted to these Mk of aircraft? It appears to have been stamped onto the plate when it was made whereas the other number on the plate 48327 has been etched on by hand.
I am going to contact a company I have found on the net that deals in spares for Hunters. They may be able to help or they may tell me to go away! Have you had any experience with this type of company?
I notice AL that you refer to it as a ’grip’. Is this the correct term for this section? I suppose that, technically, the control column is the lower section that the grip is fitted to.

Virgo – Yes! I remember now. It PROBABLY was 1968 when I obtained it. The chap said he THOUGHT it MIGHT have been taken out of the Hunter that had flown under Tower Bridge. Blimey! I’m going to dine out on this I know.;)

[G085H1TE]

Control Column,

The stick-top you have there is certainly from a Hunter and was manufactured by Dunlop. It's of the type used in the early marks of Hunter up to, and including, the F.5 and often in the T.7.

The thumb-operated sliding switch on the back of the grip operates the electrical tailplane trimmer. On the top the left button operates the gun camera and the right button is the stores release (bombs, rocket projectiles etc.). The trigger fires the guns.

Now, back to that tailplane trimmer switch. From the Mark 6 onwards, that switch was repositioned onto the left hand side of the grip and became a strange, three-point shaped affair that could be operated by the thumb while holding the grip at just about any position.

The other difference between the early and later type of grip is the way the electrical connections are made. If you look up inside your grip you should see a load of electrical pins. These mate with a socket embedded in the top of the control column and carry all the electrical connections from the buttons and switches internally down inside the stick. The later type (from F.6 onwards) had an external wiring loom (which emerged just below the ridged part of the grip) and ran down the forward face of the control column and plugged into the leg panel.

The buttons on the later type of grip are also much smaller.

So, the grip you have is from a Hunter F1, F.2, F.4, F.5 or T.7. There is no way to determine which particular aircraft it came out of though unfortunately as all the numbers you have quoted refer to the grip itself - part numbers, mod state etc..

Yes, "grip" or "stick-top" is the bit you have, whereas "control column" or "stick" refers to the whole gizmo that the driver uses to point the aeroplane home for tea!:)

[Control Column]

GO85HITE - Thanks for that, very interesting. I always thought the slider was a PTT (Press To Talk) switch for the radio. It's a shame the grip can't be matched to a particular aircraft. Oh well, I'll have to find another project and something else to use my web site for. :sad:

Any suggestions? :)

[bonajet]

Hello Control Column
From what G085 has said then the "may have belonged to the aircraft that flew under the Tower Bridge" is unlikely. I think that it was an FGA.9 in 1968 but your only hope is that it was a rebuild and your stick top had passed through it in the past!
cheers

[Control Column]

Bonajet - Yep, thought I might be shot down on that. Anyway, I have a pair of Dave Gilmour’s sunglasses. He MAY have worn them when flying his ex Yellowjacks Gnat G-MOUR (XR991).:cool:
Does anybody know what became of that?

Just seen the post on XR537. Maybe I should have posted this in that thread. Sorrreeee :O

:= ex Yellowjacks Gnat G-MOUR (XR991).
Must remember to put brain in gear before opening mouth!
It was, of course, XS102 originally and spent most(?) of its working life at 4 FTS Valley. XS102 finished its RAF flying service in 1978 and became an instructional airframe. It was sold at auction by the MoD in 1990. THEN it became G-MOUR after refurbishment and the CAA gave permission for a military paint scheme and the serial XR991 was used..
Just thought I'd mention it before being descended upon from a great height!

Cheers

CC

[LOMCEVAK]

The Swiss F58s also had that stick top although they had icons on each button denoting its function.

[NutherA2]

THEN it became G-MOUR after refurbishment and the CAA gave permission for a military paint scheme and the serial XR991 was used.

:confused: When G-MOUR was registered, what was the reason for using XR991 as its “airframe number”, rather than have it retain its original identity? Between 1966 & 1969 I flew 74 Gnats altogether, including XS102 (and XR537) but never came across XR991. After its Yellowjack career, did 991 come to an unfortunate end somewhere?

[Kieron Kirk]

Details of Gnat XR991 as link below.

Ouch! The system did not like a link to "Thunder and Lightnings"!

Try google.


www.****************************** (http://www.******************************)

http://www.******************************/gnat/survivors.html

[Control Column]

Hi NutherA2 – I believe XR991 joined the Yellowjacks virtually from the production line but of its RAF service I know nothing. When G-MOUR (XS102) was painted in the Yellowjacks colour scheme, I assume (going against my own edict to ‘assume nothing’) that the serial XR991 was used for authenticity. I don’t know what happened to the original XR991 but following Kieron's suggestion I Googled it and found most references were related to G-MOUR. I did however, find one reference under Fleet Air Arm Maintenance Serials here www.ukserials.com/anumbers.htm (http://www.ukserials.com/anumbers.htm) and that eventually led me here www.******************************/links/museums.html (http://www.******************************/links/museums.html) and under the section headed NOSE/COCKPIT/OTHER SECTIONS there is a reference to ex RAF Gnats being used to train naval personnel to handle a/c on the Invincible class ‘through deck cruisers’. I did read somewhere that 'a lot' of retired RAF Gnats ended up as instructional airframes.
So,PERHAPS XR991 finished up in the Fleet Air Arm. Does that constitute an unfortunate end somewhere? May be worth a bit more digging…:hmm:
Oooops! Same problem as Kieron. Try this one.
http://www.******************************/seavixen/survivorspics2.html
:mad: It still don't like it! Soorreee.

[NutherA2]

Thanks CC, checking the Thunder & Lightnings website for Gnat survivors yielded this:

XR991 (N1CL, ex G-BOXO)Aerocrafters Inc. (flyer),
Santa Rosa, California, USA,

so if this is up to date, the aircraft is probably closer to you than to me! http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/infopop/icons/icon14.gif

[Control Column]

Hi A2- I visited Aerocrafters Inc site and found N1CL is registered to a Stephen Rosenberg (Individual), NOVATO, CA 94949 (Marin County)
Tried to find him on the net but failed…so far. Their site is copyright © 2007 so info should be fairly up to date.
Also found 24 other Gnats registered with the FAA with name and address of owners, serial numbers & FAA reg's if you are interested.
According to Google Earth I am 578 miles closer than you. However, the directions were for both of us to go to France then swim the Atlantic...! Hasn't Google heard of the Great Circle Route? I don't think there's much in it by the time you've travelled down from Scotland. :D

Cheers

[Dick Whittingham]

I flew 991 at Kemble in Mar-May 1967.

Dick W

[Control Column]

Hi Dick W

By 1967 the RAFAT ‘Yellowjacks’ had, as you know, become the ‘Red Arrows’. Was ‘991’ still a member of the team then?

Steve Rosenberg now owns 991. The April 2007 edition of ‘Aeroplane’ had an article about his Mig21R and said that Steve had also sent a photo of his Folland Gnat, about which they hoped to do an article in a future edition. You can also read about the Mig here http://www.landings.com/_landings/pacflyer/may5-2007/Mn-34-mig-21.html (http://www.landings.com/_landings/pacflyer/may5-2007/Mn-34-mig-21.html)
I liked the comment in the web article - ‘Fuel burn is "very high," Rosenberg said, so he doesn't fly it more than two or three times a month and that's mostly to do aerobatics.’ Two or three times a month…to do aerobatics! Once in a lifetime would do me!
Another quote states -‘In terms of flight characteristics, he said, his favourite airplane is the Folland Gnat.’ :ok:
Note to Mod:- Apologies if I have broken any copyright laws by quoting the above. Please treat as necessary.:)
How did I start out looking for a Hawker Hunter and am now trying to trace a Folland Gnat. :confused: Of course I remember it when it was a pretty blue colour and called a Midge and some woman called Anne Hedral had put the wings on upside down.
Cheers
CC

[Dick Whittingham]

Hi CC,

No, 991 was not an Arrows aircraft. I have 991 and 91 - which may be the same aircraft - in fairly constant use until I went to Valley and changed fleets. I think there was a gap between the Yellowjacks and the Arrows and if 991 was a Yellowjack it would probably have been repainted and put back on the line.

Dick W

[Kieron Kirk]

XR991 was both a "Yellowjacks" and a "Red Arrow".
It featured in the "Yellowjacks" team during the Farnborough show in 1964.

[Dick Whittingham]

Well, this was 40 year's ago, but so far as I recall at Kemble the CFS Gnats and the Arrows Gnats were kept separate. I think that even then the Arrows were painted up and had smoke mods. If I am wrong, and we had a common pool, then you could say that in 1967 991 was an Arrows aircraft. It certainly was not painted as a Yellowjack then, but in ordinary training colours. Were the Arrows flying then in ordinary red and white?
Anyway, I was there when the Arrows were working up, before the season started. Maybe when the team went definite 991 was taken in.
That's about all I can help with, except that I remember Ray Hanna beating me up on the threshold at about 10ft.
Dick W

[Dick Whittingham]

Just to show it wasn't only Gnats. CFS Team, Farnboro' 1961


http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb161/dickw_photo/Farnboro.jpg

Dick W

[Control Column]

Hi Dick

They must have been ‘The Pelicans’ T3’s in ’61. They didn’t become ‘The Red Pelicans’ with T4’s until 62…did they?

Getting back to 991, it went from XR991 to 8637M (RAF Maintenance serial) but I don’t have any info as to how it was used. It then went to A2709 (Fleet Air Arm Maintenance serial) where I believe it was used to train FAA personnel how to handle a/c on the Invincible class ‘through-deck-cruisers'). Unfortunately I can’t find any dates when it carried these serials. It went from A2709 to G-BOXO, again, no dates.
If you type G-BOXO into Google, you should find on the 1st page ‘KEY PUBLISHING AVIATION FORUMS – GNATS’ that will take you to a forum thread entitled ‘Gnats…’ There are some pictures of G-BOXO (XR991) ‘…complete with wings & systems…’ on a low loader ready for transport to a seaport where they were palletised (I don’t know what is meant by ‘they’). Caption says it was at Cranfield, 30th July 1989. Doesn’t say where it was going though. The thread is dated Aug. 17th 2004 and is mainly about the Gnats used in the film ‘Hot Shots’. Maybe 991 became a film star!
Does the name Craig Charleston mean anything to anyone?
Have now got Steve Rosenbergs' home address. Not sure if I should write to him.
What do you think?
Cheers. Keep dry! :mad: weather!
CC :)

[Dick Whittingham]

CC

This is thread creep! We were just called the CFS Aerobatic Team. We did national and international shows, including Paris and Farnboro' and 74 Sqn had a Lightning team as well for the big ones.

Aircraft were standard Mk 3s in red and silver, but we had smoke mods. The aircraft were not over-endowed with power, but we could do a complete vertical show in a cloudbase of 1500ft, which was handy.

Hardly any back-up. We used to come back after a weekend show for a day at home, and were then programmed as line instructors in CFS's routine work until we had to practice and deploy for the next show. After we managed without too much trauma the thing turned more professional, with special paint schemes etc.

But that was in another country.

I have checked right through my log book, and only find 991 at Kemble in early '67, as previously reported.

Adios

Dick W

[Control Column]

Aaarrrrgggghhhh!! The dreaded thread creep.
'He draweth out the thread of his verbosity...'

Is there any cure? :{