RAF or Not: Grass Check?

[Captain Kirk]

I am considering PVR and have one simple question – is there anyone out there who has left the RAF (FJ career stream) and regrets it?

I have had a very exciting and rewarding time flying fast and low for almost 20 years but I am struggling to reconcile an increasingly intense life with declining terms and conditions of service, i.e. decreasing family time that, far from being compensated by any real advantages for my family, is actually exacerbated by poor housing, lottery schooling and a complete lack of any medical or dental provision.

I have enjoyed every day of my service but see a (bright) future that takes me further and further away from the people, elements and environment I have enjoyed the most (i.e. the frontline, ops and the genuine ability to lead) and immersion in budgets and politics within declining terms of service.

I would be grateful for informed comment from experienced ex-RAF pilots. On reflection, are you glad you left?

[Immelmann]

Just a little reflection of a Non RAF ex fighter pilot:
I did not leave the RAF, but left the German Airforce after 20 years fast flying to join a Airline career. (even in a british Airline!!)

I believe, not to much difference with RAF and GAF generally speaking.
I did NOT regret it! Another experience in life.

However sometimes I miss the "Squadron spirit" of social life:)
Hope it did not bother you, reflecting to your question, as a non RAF ex fighter pilot!?

[JW411]

I was not a FJ pilot but drove trucks for the RAF for 18 years. I had a great time in the air force but it was time to go.

I went on to have 29 happy and productive years in civil aviation and have absolutely no regrets.

I met one guy who left the RAF as a Wg Cdr from the FJ world at the age of 51. He settled in well and got his command after 3 years or so. I personally wondered if it was a bit of a brave step but he enjoyed himself hugely.

[Wingswinger]

Four Tornadoes passed over my little patch of North-West Hampshire today and my blood was up. The last 18 years disappeared in a flash and I was mentally back in the lead of that four-ball. I loved it. All of it, from BFTS in JPs, to AFTS in the Gnat, Hunters, Harriers and the Tornado GR1. I am insanely jealous of the youngsters who have the chance to fly Typhoon.

Nothing you can do in civvy street, unless you are either extremely fortunate or extremely talented, will ever match it. However, we all reach a point when we realise that it cannot go on forever and it is time to move on. Am I glad I left? On balance, yes. I'm certainly financially better-off than I would have been and I know I wouldn't have been satisfied being a specialist aircrew Sqn Ldr so I would have had perhaps one more flying tour and then I'd have been mired in careerism and politics, stuck in Group or Command HQ or, worse, the MoD. One of my former squadron colleagues is now CAS. Would I have been up there with him? I doubt it. I don't think I have what it would have taken. Nor does my wife. I also doubt it because I know I could not have served the Blair government and leaving early in 1989 at my 38/16 point has saved me the trouble and heartache of a probable resignation sometime around 1999-2001.

There is considerable re-adjustment to do to fit in with civilian ideas and attitudes. I joined a major airline as a first officer and started again at the bottom of a seniority list. I had always thought that having been a military officer and a graduate would be an advantage in the jobs market. It is what I had been led to believe in my youth. It isn't. I had thought that my experience as a leader, manager and administrator would be keenly sought. It wasn't. No-one gave a hoot. In fact, being ex-RAF was a distinct disadvantage as my natural tendency to be positive, punchy and to the point was seen as an aggressive attitude. The reduction in status from RAF officer pilot to airline co-pilot was almost too much to take and I wished to turn the clock back. It took a while to bury that, to learn to be a bit more "woolly" and to give up trying to impress people.

RAF officers (in my time) were used to a form of continuous assessment and being given an appropriate post to develop their careers. It isn't like that in an airline or, I suspect, in any other civilian organisation. Promotion and appointments all hinge on an interview (and on being in the right lodge). There was no guidance and I was not used to it. I was hopelessly optimistic about the sort of career I would have after the RAF. I had thought that airlines would all have pilots on the board of directors and that it would be easy to spot a path to the board room. They don't and it isn't. In short, I found that during the 17 years I had worn RAF blue the world had moved on and I had, to a considerable extent, been left behind. On the other hand, perhaps it had always been that way and RAF service had merely isolated me from it.

Fortunately, things have a habit of working out. I stuck with the airline world and found enjoyment of a different sort in exploring the places I found myself on a crew slip or nightstop. I read much more widely than I had done when I was in the RAF and even became a bit of an autodidact. I'm now with my second airline, one which does not operate a seniority list, promoting and appointing on ability alone and I am enjoying the new challenges immensely. I certainly don't think I'll be retiring for a while yet!

Edited to add: Looking back, I found the resettlement package offered by the Service wholly inadequate both in terms of finance and in terms of courses designed to fit one for a civilian career. I think, considering what we did and were prepared to do for our country, it's meanness was nothing short of disgraceful. The lack of finance I coped with easily enough (paying for an ATPL) but it's the lack of advice and detailed preparation for civvy street that still rankles. I hope things have improved.

[charlies angel]

Been out over 10 years now after 16 years of top top flying.
Finally though reached that crossroads of lifestyle/family vs career/flying.
For me an absolute no brainer.
Airline flying IS tedious and not particularly exciting but by christ do you get a lifestyle second to none.( charter, BA, Virgin ).
Loads of mates to share war stories with as you micro nap the sector away :ok: Catch up with personal admin, even look out of the window:O
Park the jet, get in your car and watch the airport disappear behind you without a care or secondary duty in the world:)

[Reader not a writer]

Had a great time flying FJs for nearly as long as you and left. I do miss the social life and the banter, but that only equates in my case for about 10% of it in comparison. The other 90% that goes with the job in the airlines far outweighs what the RAF has to offer in earnings, family life and control of ones destiny when you get into your 40s. Good luck with your decision and all the best

[Finman]

I agree totally with Wingswinger. My main regret is the almost total lack of respect in the civvy world. Having every tom-cobly-and-all call me 'mate' as an airline captain really pisses me off.
Also, in the RAF, you could make a difference. In the civvy world, no-one gives a ****. Your opinions and suggestions are largely ignored. You waste your breath. Do your job, go home. Be happy.

[Dan Winterland]

'Do your job. Go home. Be happy.' No secondary duties - works for me!

But seriously, 17 years in, 6 years out and no regrets about leaving.

[Yarpy]

I too left in 1989 and have since worked for ten airlines . . . It's a highly unstable profession and the average business plan seems to last about 18 months before incompetence sets in. Having a command is great but after a few months it's just graft - and someone else gets the megabucks. I got p*ssed off with it and found something else to do where I can spend time with my young family. I would rather have sold my Mum in to prostitution than joined an airline management team. :ugh:Most places there seems to be a clique of about three pilots who are 'running' it. Usually this means that they have found a way off the roster by shafting their mates in the back.

Best quote I ever heard was from my first 'Manager' who was ex Canberras and Lincolns:

" The grass on the other side is astroturf! "

The same holds true today except that the astroturf is computer generated.:D

[enicalyth]

I like to think I peaked early!

Civilian airlines are not out to build your career nor extend you in the sense that service life does with its assessments, evaluations and reporting.

Civilians? Actually that is what you are when you leave the Service and what you always were when going about the daily business of family life, walking the dog, bathing the bairns, saving up for the boat etc.

On the day you leave the services, they are already giving it their best shot to get on without you. The same goes for the civilian community you are about to join. They have been getting on with it for the past decade or more and see no reason why they should do without to make up for your lost time. Red carpets are in very short supply. Seniority starts at the bottom. Therefore do the only thing you have completely in your power....

Making a roaring success of your own relationships.

All flying, civil or military is but a chapter in the book and you’re the one writing it.

Welcome aboard!

The "E"

[spoff]

Did 15 years FJ and been out for 7 years

Haven't regretted it at all,strangely don't miss the flying.. the only thing I miss is the banter.

I too worked for an 'old' outfit, charter, that was wed to it's seniority list, moved after a couple of years for a brightly coloured lot that promotes on ability. Had I stayed with the seniority game I would still be RHS, as it is the only time I sit there now is training new Captains.

The improvement in lifestyle is HUGE, I wouldn't change my time in the Air Force for one minute, But am extremely happy to have left.

Best of luck with your decision,

Spoff

[demobcurious]

Left the RAF just under a year ago at 38 - best move I could have ever done. Civvie flying is much poorer quality but the lifestyle is MUCH better. It's a big and very personal decision - the RAF now isn't the one we joined, but it's the only place you'll get the 'cut and thrust' of front line ops if that's what you need.

Personally I now enjoy having reliable time off with the kids and going to places on the holiday program instead of the news!

[Captain Kirk]

Gents,

Thank you most sincerely for taking the time to write such informative replies - especially Wingswinger. They are all very helpful.

One more question then - which companies are hot and which are not?

I have obviously done my own initial research but it would be foolish of me not to tap into the collective PPRuNe experience to ensure that I have not overlooked anything.

Many thanks.

[Ghostflyer]

16 years in, 7 out. If you stay, you have to ask where you will be in say 10 years time. I loved the flying and banter but it would not have gone on forever. I reckon had I stayed I would have done one maybe 2 more flying tours and then still have had 14 years to go. I wouldn't have wanted to be the old git in the corner of the crew room that could no longer cut it. Initially you get more experienced, then you get old. Best case was to top out at low Air rank. For that to happen I would have had to sell my soul.

When I left the first thing I noticed was that I, literally, didn't have to rush around everywhere. Wifey couldn't believe it. I slowed down and started to relax for the first time in my life. I work for an ex-pat airline so I had a total break from the UK. I loved the new flying for a couple of years, all the new destinations, eye candy etc. Did my command and have got to the stage of now what. Financially, my total package is probably 3 times the amount I earned when I left; that can't be bad. I certainly don't have too many worries about the future from that point of view.

But at work...I am bored senseless! Doing training helps and I get to go places and do things outside of work that I could never have done before. I could become an office whaller but that takes me back full circle to where I would have been had I stayed. So whats the answer? I like to use one simple expression. I used to live to work, now I work to live. Simply, when you are in you take for granted the special environment that you live in but you also don't realise how limited it is. I don't miss the flying much. Occasionally I wish I could get a jet and hammer around the lake district but dicking around on ops sucked. When you leave it is different and with the airlines you have to derive pleasure from outside your job. As a sportaholic, I have been to a Super 14 game, the Ashes, Old Trafford and the World Cup in the last year.

Flying fast jets was the most rewarding and exciting experience of my life to date. But as others have said before it can't go on for ever. If you do hang on to 55, what then? You will probably leave as a (relatively) poor office mate. By leaving now you lose the flying but give yourself numerous options for the future and the potential for a far richer life. I am planning to use the airlines to make enough cash to branch out and do something completely different on my own. I hope that will keep me interested for years to come.

[Yarpy]

All good things come to an end; if you have had a great career in the RAF then it's a difficult call as to when you should quit. I found civvy life an absoulute breath of fresh air to start with and I don't regret my PVR. However, airline flying comes with a few health warnings.

1. Instability. My first airline went bust just after I had converted to a new type. With 66 hours on a shiny wonder jet I was fully trained and fully inexperienced too. No one would touch me for a year and then I had to catch up with the fag end airlines. I was seven years in the wilderness before getting on the rung of the ladder with a good firm. 9/11 started the 'P45' routine all over again but with a family in tow.

Be warned: keep one years bills in cash all of the time.

2. Relationships. Bad rosters = bad relationships. Incontravertable fact. My best mate is on his third marriage and the only hosties he ever poked were the ones he married. The airlines caused the break up's by comprehensively trashing his home life. Try working ten away three at home, five away in different time zones. You can be back at home but just not with it.

Watch you six at interview: airlines know that you want a good lifestyle and will lie through their teeth at interview to get you.

3. Legal. It's a fact, the bottom line in civvy street is legal. I have been (unsucessfully) sued over a techincal breach of contract and it was very unpleasant even though I was well supported.

Get legal insurance (BALPA, ALPL) AND DON'T SIGN A CONTRACT UNTIL SOMEONE HAS GIVEN IT THE ONCE OVER.

4. Health. You can't get away from it. The job is stressful for the best of them. An FO of mine flew 13 missions in the Gulf War 2. Splendid, irrepressible guy and a credit to his country. Notwithstanding I saw him get severely dicked around by the company and getting pretty het up as a result. Another FO (20 years on Phantoms . . .) completely dumped his brain on a go around. Try operating, gear, flaps, radio and low altitude capture all on your own . . . Again, a thoroughly chipper, competent bloke working at his limit.

Don't underestimate the job. Stress and heart desease are the two biggest reasons for losing your licence.

Find a good loss of licence policy.

5. The job. Flying the jet is five per cent of the job. You are paid to make consistently safe, commercially viable decisions on the hoof. It can be a very commercial environment these days. Whatever you do protect the licence in your pocket. The company can sack you but the CAA pulls your licence. You can always get another job. I've had ten. I've had some seriously tough decisions to make on the way. Crewing Clerk threatens that you will not get a command if you don't fly into discretion even though you are past being knackered . . .

Finally, we all have egos. No one wants you to know that they have a bum deal. Ex mates often tell you it's great where they are. Read through the lines when making your decisions about who to work for.

[Tommy Tipee]

Greetings Captain Kirk,
You've obviously thought long and hard about this, so I would advise you to PVR a.s.a.p.and get on with the rest of your life.
The longer you leave it , the harder it will be.
On balance, the pros will far outweigh the cons, and you will have far more control over your lifestyle.
Just remember 3 Golden Rules:
1. Don't look back.
2. Don't go back (you'll soon become the embarassing old f**t at happy hour that nobody quite remembers)
3. When you get to an airline, never start a sentence with the words "When I was in the Air Force we used to........"
I made the switch over 30 years ago, and have had no regrets.
I've had happy, successful and very lucrative careers in several airlines both
in the UK and abroad, but even after all these years, still think of myself as very much "Ex Airforce", rather than "Ex" any of the other companies I have worked for since.
Best of luck,
Tommy

[Wingswinger]

CAPT K,

I agree with most of what Yarpy says although I haven't notched up as many companies as he has as I moved from first officer to training captain! BA at LHR was my first airline where I flew B757/767 on a mix of short and longhaul routes followed by Airbus 319/320/321 on shorthaul. I'm now with easyJet based at LGW.

The one thing not to underestimate is how fatiguing airline flying can be even though 99% of it is done with the autopilot engaged. Even in shorthaul where you are usually no more than one time-zone away, sometimes two, it is fatiguing. The early starts can be bloody early - 0400Z reports are not uncommon - and the late finishes often don't see me home until after 0100. There will be an unavoidable effect on your personality which your nearest and dearest will have to cope with.

Join BALPA. No matter what you may feel about trade unions, join. It is half and half trade union and professional association and a great source of professional and financial advice as well as a provider of legal protection. Go to http://www.balpa.org.uk. You can join now as an associate member.

The trouble with listing hot airlines is that the business is so cyclical and the fortunes of companies so variable that they may not stay hot for long!

I'd recommend going where you will achieve a command and a training appointment quickly. That means forget BA. At easyJet, we are looking for over 1000 pilots in the next couple of years and your military FJ experience would score highly; you'd quickly achieve the 3000 factored hours required to be considered for command. As to other companies, the best are probably Virgin, First Choice/Mytravel and Thomas cook/Thomson (I forget who is merging with whom at the moment!) but other people will no doubt add their opinions. Ryanair? Read all the threads about that company and make up your own mind. I wouldn't. If you do, use it just to gain commercial experience and move on asap. Emirates? you won't see much of your family and the money ain't what it used to be.

If you want detailed info, feel free to pm me.

WS

[Immelmann]

Looking into the future, what, if? Hard to make a decision.
Direct comparing of Airforce and Airline career is more helpful, at least out of the retroperspective!
Last year on AIRSHOW, me visiting the A-380, I saw a 2 star general in front of me, surrounded by his staff.
I am recognizing a "pilot class mate" from old times. Of course, we had a get toghether (one beer, probably more) and compared our lives. At one time in our career, I made the decision to leave, he decided to stay in the Airforce, to make his way up. What he did.

He is leading an AIR DIVISION, explaining to me the challenges within the military aviation (specially EUROFIGHTER induction). Less budget, more operative aims. Pilots not flying enough, promotions delayed, etc.

Family life, children are tired of moving around with the old gentleman, wife complaining regarding their marriage.
Financial situation, not that bad.

Well, compared to my buddy´s life, my civil life was fairly "easy" . Starting as an FO, soon changing to the left seat. The usual verbal battle about those ex-fighter-pilots that have no clue about CRM, real instrument flying, etc, etc.
Of course, Airline flying is stress, too. But, after parking my AIRBUS, that´s it most of the times. No deskwork, planning of operations, staff dutytimes.

Coming to the financial point of view- well, I do much better!

At the end of our discussion however, we had the same final conclusion:

He stressed, that he has only 4 years to retirement - I got 3 years to go and looking forward to.
These statements made us both smile!:)

[spoff]

Agree with all that wingswinger has said.

The big question to ask yourself is what type of lifestyle do you want if and when you leave. If you plan on living a long way from any potential job, then long haul may be better, if you want to live close to work and would rather spend most nights in your own bed, then perhaps short haul would suit.

I tried living out of a suitcase, it didn't suit me. I now work short haul and it works far better for me and my family. I'm not saying it's better, just that it suits me better! By the same token I know lots of mates from our background doing long haul and are happy with their lot.

The 'hot' airlines at the moment would lead you towards Virgin if long Haul, and Easy for short, BA still a very good employer, but seniority is all there and the pension is no more for new joiners. The snag is that this game changes quickly. A couple of years ago Easy lost lots of guys to EK. Now almost no-one is leavng easy and we are picking up lots of EK guys who have had enough there.

Perhaps you need to ask yourself where you want to live and what type of lifestyle. The most important thing in life will no longer be your job, so make the job fit the life that you want rather than the other way round!

Pm me if you need some more gen. To stay or go is probably the toughest call you will have to make.

[Megaton]

BA pension for new joiners has recently had massive improvement (and God knows it needed it) thanks to the work of the BALPA negotiating team.

[will fly for food 06]

Been out the raf for 6 months and dont regret it

[the heavy heavy]

capt k.

8 years in, 9 years out, leaving the 2nd best thing i've ever done. the best thing was of course joining! regrets, i've had a few, in truth to few to mention.

agree with all that's been said so far, my own summary

1. better house
2. better car
3. better quality time with the wife
4. better quality time when not with the wife!
5. better current account balance
6. better holidays getting there in better seats
7. nobody shoots at you. (they try to blow you up right enough!)

on the downside

1. no crewroom banter:*
2. very little work satisfaction when compared to now.:uhoh:
3. responsibilty and talent will not equal respect and ability to improve the operation. :eek:
4. if you think the ability level at your sqn is varied, you've seen nothing! depending where you go standby to be amazed. :mad:
5. they will not honour whatever promises they make, you will spend the next 20 years having to fight to protect the t&c's you sign on the line for whilst some clown offers to do your job for free:}
6. enjoy your last gorrilla, dact, affil, acmi..... nothing will ever compare.:ok:

i'm at BA and often thank my lucky stars that i left when i did. nothing will ever compare with fj flying in civvy world but there is nothing to compare with my lifestyle now in the mob. golfing with the boys in j'burg and chewing the sh*t down route keep you remembering all that you enjoyed and made you proud. taking better care and spending time at home with your nearest and dearest will make you happy you left.

best of luck.:D

ps i'm at BA but would recommend virgin as the place to go if it's long haul your looking for.

[abbotyobs]

"BA pension for new joiners has recently had massive improvement (and God knows it needed it) thanks to the work of the BALPA negotiating team."

Hi what are the new pension terms for BA?

The info I looked at recently seemed to give you a pension of 10k a year after 20 years service, which looked terrrible.
I am thinking of leaving the RAF soonish and the lack of final salary pension terms of UK companies is making me look elsewhere in Europe.
Any info would be great thanks.

[Kraut]

.........the lack of final salary pension terms of UK companies is making me look elsewhere in Europe............:eek:


What do you think, why lots of European are flying in UK?? I.e. EZY?
Which company do you have in mind, in Europe?

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

12 yrs in - 1 yr out.

The question I asked myself when looking for jobs was " Do I want to be working for this company in 20 yrs time?".

Only 2 companies were a yes for me , BA and Virgin.

BA pays more and has a better pension(just). Virgin pilots work 750 hrs a year, whereas BA will be @800-850. Command time will be about the same in both.

I chose BA, where I fly 5 times a month, 3/4 days at a time, and it is fairly easy to get the day you want off. The rostering system at BA is called bidline, and gives you a lot of control of your life.

Nearly all the pilots I fly with are of similar character to those I flew with in the RAF, and I am enjoying life on the outside.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

P-T G,

You had the pleasure of a ride with KG yet? :ugh:

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Didn't he go straight to management?:oh: I think he's finding it a bit harder to pick the good trips these days:)

[Wingswinger]

Box-four of Harriers over my plot of earth this morning, accompanied by a whipper-in. Appeared four times doing a race-track. Obviously a fly-past somewhere. Ahhhh, memories. :ok:

[Smudger]

CK, I was in for 18 and have been out for 16. Enjoyed my time flying C130 doing all sorts of crazy stuff but am now more than happy in the left seat of a 757 drinking coffee served by fragrant cabin crew - most of them female!! Depends what you want - only you can make the decision. I don't think you'll find many regretting the decision to take the plunge - the commercial world is tough, you have to work hard for what you want but it's worth it in the end. It's still a very challenging and rewarding occupation (despite the green-eyed critics) and I wholeheartedly recommend it. The ball's in your court..... (I didn't fly fighters but admire the people that did... hope my comments are valid nevertheless. Good luck for the future).

[Megaton]

"fragrant cabin crew"
I must be on the wrong fleet :(

[Captain Kirk]

Gentlemen,

I am truly humbled that so many of you have taken the time to write such comprehensive responses and am indebted to you for your assistance.

It is not lost upon me that all of the replies are articulate and balanced (and hence, credible) and that you have found the time to post which, broadly at least, must indicate the tempo of your lifestyles - though I would not wish to be dismissive of busy people making considerable effort.

Overall, I have found the advice herein to be exceptionally valuable and I have drawn comfort from a sanity check of my own conclusion. I look forward to working with you!

[FAStoat]

As one from the Grey Funnel Line,I was in the Best Flying Club in the World.However,when I left before the Falklands,Jobs faded away.There was still an Aviation Industry,and a 125 was all I could get.That was a magic piece of luck as it got me an early Command,including P1 across the Pond,signed off by the Deputy CTP.I only got into a proper Airline with that experience.After that I did both Pax and Freighting,and preferred the Freighting to be honest.Things have now changed,and the FTLs are extremely important to keep you sane,and in the proper sleep cycle.Final Salary Pensions are on the way out,and the Money Purchase Schemes are nowhere near as good;BUT how anyone can operate with the Kit you have now,under the Blair Presidentsy,with so few flying hours,I really dont know.You have to get out,and try Virgin or BA,where your ability will count.Easyjet I am told is the best of the rest,and loads of friends of mine are very happy there,with several in Top training positions.Freighting now is a No no .Look at the DHL doom and gloom reports on Prune.The others are no longer run by Brits,which is a great pity.There WAS a dream of a job,which no longer exists,that made Freighting the cream of the crop-good pay,good training,good equipment,Excellent guys who were in the main from Dark and Light Blue running it,50 different destinations in a year,Cap 371 FTls,good Sim,good leave and time off,and Final Salary Pension Scheme.Bloody marvellous,but sadly no longer the same and is now based down the road from DHL.It was the nearest you could get to a Crewroom of old.I recognise JW411 as being one of the good guys!!!!!BUT,you will need to watch your six-there are spies in the sky!!The World of Airline Flying has changed,but still has to be better than still shovelling **** in the Service,with little or no support.You will find that the secondary effect of Aids will be rife-Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome.So Beware,and good luck.