Six Year Seat Lock At NJE.

[Smeagel]

"How do we stop all our large cabin crew moaning about being jet lagged or demanding their promised upgrade to the Gulfstream?"

"Ummmmm, let's seat lock them"

"Great idea! For how long?"

"Let's make it six years"

"Brilliant!! Glasses of port all round!!":ok:

Netjets Europe are considering (pretty seriously allegedly) seat locking pilots on the Falcon and Gulfstream fleets for SIX YEARS:ooh: Not a problem of course if you are on something you enjoy but what if you are not? What if, like some people, you were persuaded to accept (say) a Falcon with a promise of a Gulfstream in a year or two?

What if you tire of the long haul flying, always on minimum rest?

What if the make it retroactive and impose it on those who have already moved?

Discuss.

[bizantin]

When you cannot hire people anymore because of sh..contract, the only way to keep aircraft flying is to seat lock people!
meaning that now we ll have to stay longer with less and less peanuts...eh guys, don't forget to apply (Pfffff)!

[StressFree]

CJBoy,
Smeagel gives an honest appraisal of his take on NJE, an alternative view from all the spin, for some its hard to read but I'm grateful for his input. I've got no interest in working for them (couldn't afford the pay cut) but unless readers get both sides of the story then the truth won't come out.............

Thanks Smeagel, keep it up.

:D

[hawkerpilot]

Perhaps interesting to note that if the large cabin crews are seat locked, that will mostly lock the small cabin fleet as well, with the exception of the happy few that go into the newly ordered large cabin aircraft.

Which basically means that your dream or promise when you joined Netjets to move quickly from your bravo to a gulfstream will not be in reach.

They did not tell you that when you joined right?

by the way, the small cabin aircraft have no APU.:(

[Smeagel]

Smeagel,
Why are you obsessed by what is going on at NetJets, I thought you had left??
CJB

Pretty much along the lines of what StressFree and hawkerpilot say. For quite some time I was fed the spin, lies and downright deceit that is NJE.
Yes, I recently left but that doesn't mean I don't want to warn others. That doesn't mean I lose sleep or anything (despite what some would like to believe) or spend my hours plotting and scheming. I merely pass on what those on the inside ask me to.

Things there have improved slightly of late although it is worth noting that some of the said 'improvements' are really only a reinstatement of terms and conditions that were removed by the company without consultation a few years ago so yes, an improvement for those who joined in the last three years but merely giving back what was taken from those who signed on before that. Then there are the more recent backward steps (tax and social security payments ) which are bad news for those affected.

I know for some it is a step up from being on call for charter on a full time basis for some two-bit shady GA operator but two wrongs don't make a right. NJE is still not a career path (no seniority, lack of transparency etc etc).

For now it's a good way to build hours, gain experience and move on as long as wannabees go in with their eyes open. On the other hand if NJE spent a little more time engendering better morale and seeing to the things that will keep people happy it could have legs.

Time will tell. Who knows? Maybe I'll go back.

[Brizeguy]

Perhaps interesting to note that if the large cabin crews are seat locked, that will mostly lock the small cabin fleet as well, with the exception of the happy few that go into the newly ordered large cabin aircraft.

Can you explain your logic HP? With orders already in for the 7X and 4000 another couple of hundred drivers req'd as it stands now! Can't see that being all new hires! Plenty of options open and more to come in the next six years:).

[FourGreenNoRed]

Hey Smeagel, hope you are joking with coming back. If not, we just can hope that the new Pilot-Recruiting avoids hiring schmucks like yourself in the future.:ugh:
Leave us alone and go sailing. Far away if you could. . . . :D

[falconbis]

about a career a senior manager said that if they can keep pilots 2 or 3 years NJE is happy.....

[Smeagel]

Hey Smeagel, hope you are joking with coming back. If not, we just can hope that the new Pilot-Recruiting avoids hiring schmucks like yourself in the future.
Yeah, you'd have thought they might have learned after letting me slip in but then they went and hired you. Some people never learn.

Leave us alone and go sailing. Far away if you could. . . .
Awww shucks, I'm just feeling the love.

We all know they would take back anyone they can get their hands on and agreeing to reinstate seniority. Well, salary according to years served. We all know there's no real seniority system.

You never know. If they sort out a few things, let me have part time...............I could waltz back in to somewhere near the front of the queue. Just as long as I don't have to endure the intox, sorry indoc course again.

about a career a senior manager said that if they can keep pilots 2 or 3 years NJE is happy.....
That's an oft repeated comment and I have heard more than one manager say that myself. Once you hear that you understand why they have never cared much about keeping people happy.

[bizantin]

Smeagel, Keep going you are absolutely right. The ones who do not agree with you are just too new to understand or have no other possibility in their career. For them, Netjets is The career achievement!
Netjets is just a pure financial business model, concept where pilots are the constraint.
Advice for wannabees, join if you like, leave when you can.

Cheers

[Smeagel]

Careful bizantin or 'they' will start to call you nasty names:rolleyes:




("Schmuck":O That made me giggle)

[hawkerpilot]

To answer your question, those falcons and 4000's are not all coming overnight but over a number of years. Next to that there are 600 pilots ahead of you who are all fed up of their small non apu mini jet, and they will be seatlocked on those large cabin.
Now you can figure out who is going to fly the small aircraft they leave behind? you.
You must understand that large cabin shares are not a large part of the company's work.the workforce is the smaller fleets, that is the backbone of Netjets, not the few large cabin.
You also forget that they not only expand into large cabin but also in small cabin fleets, and as in any pyramid only a few will make it to the top. The majority, and that is you, number 600+, will spend more than you wish on a small non apu aircraft until you are fed up waiting and leave......

last point, people who claim they did the upgrade to the larger cabin under 6 years have not said they were in the top of the pyramid, than a upgrade goes quick. However it is a number game now and you are realistically looking at at least a decade if you are lucky......:(

[netjetter]

hawkerpilot, again you have got your facts wrong.

The majority of pilots currently employed by NetJets are NOT on a small cabin, non-APU fleet.

The Excel and Hawker 800 fleets are the largest fleets in terms of numbers.

You also fail to mention that long haul flying is inreasingly popular with our owners and we can't get the G's quick enough.

So, as always, you only tell us half of the truth, if that.

Of coure it is impossible to say how long it will take before somebody gets a large cabin, but nobody has to spend more than a few years on a small cabin, if at all.

Bottom line, if somebody is only interested in joining NetJets because of the G's and 7X' maybe he/she should apply somewhere else. It's not just the size of the aircraft that matters.

[StressFree]

Netjetter,
I think you'll find most experienced people do in fact want decent equipment like Gulfstreams and Falcons and therefore will apply somewhere else. Who in their right mind would want to join a firm without even knowing what fleet you'll be on and end up stuck on a Beechjet? You say its not just the size of aircraft that matters but thats a rather weak argument as you dont mention technology levels etc.
Sorry but as an impartial onlooker my view is that Smeagel and hawkerpilot give a far more realistic appraisal of the REAL situation at NJE and we should be grateful that they take the time to enlighten the wider community about the truth, especially considering all the pathetic, childish abuse given to them by posters like FourGreens who frankly is just embarassing, get a life................ :mad:

[Smeagel]

And there was me believing everyone thought I was just a troll.

I'm touched*



Also interesting to note that none of the usual defenders of all things NJE have taken issue with my original post. Wonder why?

Consider that. Seat locked for six years. "Great! On a G5!" I hear someone cry. But long haul in NJE is not as long haul elsewhere. Those crew are mainly on minimum rest anyway, they see precious little of those far-flung destinations as it is and now netjetter is saying that such flights are becoming more popular with their owners.

Add to this some of the 'yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir' captains (in the loosest sense) who agree to reduce their rests and showtimes without consulting the rest of their crew (you know who you are and I know you read and post in here) then TELL them what they are doing whether they are rested or not and it starts looking a little less rosy.

How many people will realise what that does to their health (one FO flew three transatlantic round trips in one six day tour:uhoh:) and want to change to (say) the Falcon 2000 only to be told they can't? Do you really believe that after a six day long haul tour across many time zones with minimum rest those five days off will be enough? I can tell you how debilitating a short haul tour with NJE can be in the summer, adding jet lag to the equation is just asking for trouble.

So that'll be six years, long haul, minimum rest on sub-industry wages (re-read CL300's posts carefully).

Don't all rush.










*if I'm lucky :E

[hawkerpilot]

"Sorry but as an impartial onlooker my view is that Smeagel and hawkerpilot give a far more realistic appraisal of the REAL situation at NJE and we should be grateful that they take the time to enlighten the wider community about the truth"

Thanks stressfree, you apreciate what we do, because you judged it correctly: we inform the public about the other side of Netjets, not the commercial picture shown in the magazines. We bring the inside look.

there is no personall gain from this or pleasure. It is just to make sure people are fully informed before they step into netjets, somethig that we did not have when we started years ago, so others can avoid the mistakes we made..........and then take a clear decision if they like it or not.

[CL300]

Smeagel

Also interesting to note that none of the usual defenders of all things NJE have taken issue with my original post. Wonder why?


Being on the above mentionned fleet, I had to-date no confirmation nor infirmation of this 6 years seat - lock thing.

Would not affect me too much since I'm on the Easy part of Netjets fleet, and life is great to outstanding (push button wise), and the roster complied with. (which was my personal reason to get into Netjets).
Everything else is just a plane....

[Smeagel]

Cl300. I understand that. You are happy with that type of flying and in all honesty I am glad you are, otherwise it would be unpleasant to be stuck there.

I was given this information in very specific terms including the name of the person who put the idea forward and also the name of at least one fleet manager who confirmed that it was being considered. You could ask your FM, see what he says and I'll tell you which FM already confirmed it. Be interesting to see if they or he gave the same answer, no?

Of course that doesn't mean it will actually happen, just that they are or have considered such a hare-brained scheme. Were the crew to make their displeasure known maybe they might reconsider, just as they did with the rostering, when those who agreed to work extra received their rosters. Some people volunteered to work two extra days per month expecting their 6/5 pattern to become 6/4. Reasonable assumption one might think but instead they got 6/3, 5/2, 6/3...................... how does that work I wonder? No wonder the pilots withdrew their agreement and reverted to 6/5. Disaster!

Yet I am told all fleets are overcrewed so why do people need to work extra days? Then again maintenance is a mess. But, hang on. That would mean fewer aircraft flying so fewer crew needed so why the need to work extra days again?

Makes me glad to be a schmuck and therefore not bright enough to be a manager.

[FourGreenNoRed]

Yeah, maybe I got carried away here a bit and maybe because I got frustrated with the fact, that whatever is said from SmeagSchmuck is only half of the truth, totally unbalanced and singing out things which just do not belong here. We changed quite a bit throughout the last year or two; one of the changes is the way of communication from the top to the bottom. Got more open. Encouraging people to participate and not leave it behind. Not perfect yet, but for sure a start and a move to the better. Why punishing it and spread the info which is offered out to the world? Why are all the posts unbalanced, only emphasising the things which are not there yet? It makes me kind of aggressive especially knowing how it is in the outside NTA world. I think some of the posts here are talking things really down the drain which are not soooo bad at all. Complaining on very high level.

Anyway, to stop with the BS here is one thing which I think is worth debating here: Extended days policy and how it is worth to inform some of our readers:

Deal promised: Extend six days get 6000 for almost free. Not a problem one might thing, but: its not about flying 6/5 and then 7/5 once or 4/3 a month till September as one might be invited to think in order to do those six extras. Nope. It’s like this my friend: The max amount of working days per quarter are 50, including vacation days, excluding wrap-around days, excluding sickdays. Per quarter. Which starts Jan, April and so on. So for the first month with the extended days which was JUNE, (end of the quarter two) they increased the overall amount of quarterly working days to 53. So if you had an easy start of the year, like most of us had and accepted the extended days and were sick, you end up with the month of June with 25 dutydays remaining or so. Get my drift? Now all of a sudden you see a schedule where you fly 6/2 6/2 6/3. All legal and agreed upon. This was not really made very transparent to the crews accepting the deal. So some were refusing it and they took it back. No pressure applied to the crews giving back the deal. After too much trouble (a few gave it back, not critical) now the min rest is 3 days but the next month for the extended days is coming. So keep it mind if you applied for it, especially what was said regarding the calculation and towards the end of the quarter.

My little token to go to the more informative scope of this forum and leaving the personals out of here. A little sorry for this.:sad:

[bizantin]

Come on smeagel, you are not a schmuck (Well, I have no clue what it means but it does not sound nice).
The good thing with netjets is that you can sign whatever, it's worth absolutely nothing! take, the contract (UK) but the company base is in Portugal so they won't look at your case nor the portuguese because the contract is british!! in that case, SIGN, who cares?
The seat locking is not a big issue either if you like the plane. If you do not, Netjets is good to join and leave at your wish. They pay for the type rating and you can leave whenever you want without paying anything...

[Smeagel]

bizantin, you rascal.

Are you suggesting that someone should sign a contract and then refuse to abide by the terms and conditions? That's absolutely disgusting!! Who on earth would do such a thing? Oh, hang on. Netjets, that's who.

Fair enough then. Rip them off for all you can get:ok:



FourGreen. I understand your anger. You are no doubt a hard working, genuine person who has given to the company more than is asked of you. There are/were many like that, myself included. Some of them/us however were abused just a little too much and guess what? We became angry. You ask us to understand your point if view, is it so hard for you to see ours?

You are annoyed by the posts that are solely negative. Well oddly enough I become irritated by the rose-tinted spectacle brigade who flit around these forae telling anyone who will listen that everything is wonderful, marvellous and hunky dory. Funnily enough when these topics get down to the nitty gritty they seem to fade into the distance. Look around this thread for example. Where are those who normally cannot resist posting when anyone asks for information on NJE? We all know who they are, so where are they? Why are they not here? Maybe something to consider should you ever wonder about solidarity in NJE.

With the utmost (and genuine) respect if you had witnessed some of what happened from the inside and heard what some managers and supervisors had to say about crew you would not be so sympathetic toward them. They hold you and your colleagues in very low esteem, do not be fooled by what they tell you to your face. Managers in some departments have openly told their staff "Pilots are ****". Some of the best liars are very near the top of the tree and will tell you whatever they need to guarantee their bonuses. I KNOW this.

How do all interview/indoc and recurrent courses start? With a powerpoint presentation telling the potential recruits, new hires and crew how they are the fulcrum of the operation, the very pinnacle of business aviation, the glue that holds it all together, the last stop when things go wrong. Then, when you ask to be treated as professionals, to perhaps be allowed to negotiate with management, to object when they mess around with your terms, conditions, tax and social contributions what happens? Do they call you, the "best in the business", to the meeting table as equals? Or do they tell you to sign the new contract they drew up for you by December or else?

It's 'or else', isn't it?

Then when some of you decide you need to form a professional body do they agree? After all you are professionals so why should you not have a pilot council or, dare I say it, a union? The airlines who the company are so keen to compare your salaries with all have them so do they allow you to? No.

Do you know what new hires are being told at indoc now? That the independent crew forum set up by your own colleagues is easily read by management who can track the email addresses of all users. Why would they feel the need to tell such lies? Could it be because the forum, which was simply set up as a virtual crewroom, is also used by those who want representation to report their progress? Because management want to scare new hires away from the old hands lest they be tainted? Because they KNOW that there are almost enough members of the IPA now to request representation?

They employ union busting lawyers and place spies on the panel drawn up to arrange the union and get them to forward all communications on the matter to Lisbon and the States. Why would they feel the need to do that do you think? Surely the "best in the business" can be trusted to deal with the company in a fair and equitable manner? After all, that's how the company has treated its employees in the past isn't it?

I think we all know the answer to that one.

The truth of the matter is NJE/NTAS or whatever have used and abused many people since their inception and that's one hell of a legacy to shake off. It certainly won't happen overnight.

I have no doubt that you and some of the new managers and supervisors mean well but the fact remains that there are still some there who are fighting to protect their own little feifdom, their own corner, their privileges yet it is those people who should have been the first out the door.

I have said this before. There are some signs of improvement however there are far more signs of the company's wrongdoing and they have a LOT of reparation to make before anyone who saw what happened on the inside believe they have turned over a new leaf. There have been several new brooms over the years each of whom promised to right the wrongdoings of their predecessors but nothing really happened. Personally I think the biggest problem now is the old guard failing to report honestly to BK. I have no doubt that he is an excellent businessman and man manager but that doesn't help when the people reporting to him are concealing the true feelings of the troops.

I wish you well, I really do. I am an optimist by nature who in my naivete believed what I was told. "We're all in this together, we can make it work, you are the best". Then I heard the laughter behind my back. How many times do you think I bailed the company out by agreeing to reduce rest, turnaround times or show times on the promise of a deal? How many times do you think that deal was broken?

If you can hang in there long enough it costs the company sufficient in training and hiring as people continue to leave you might just get a better deal and perhaps a career. As others have said, as it stands NJE should be seen as no more than a stepping stone. Never feel obligated to them because they sure as hell do not feel the same to you. You are a commodity, a consumable who as falconbis said is only expected to last two or three years in the company by your own management. If they are prepared to put time, effort and money into replacing you after three years don't you think they could expend maybe half that on retaining people? Would be nice, wouldn't it?

SmeagSchmuck (I quite like my new name;) )




PS FourGreen. Was that last post of yours an apology? There's hope for us yet;)

[FourGreenNoRed]

Yes, it was an apology. Why? Because I know you did so many extra-miles you could have walked easily the BPK 3T and then enroute to the DPE 4E by foot without getting feet wet . You tried to make things better and got as much frustrated by the system as myself with you. I still don’t think you do the right thing by your unbalanced posts, giving away only half of the info available (or you just don’t know the whole story which I suspected earlier), but it’s up to you of course.

I know, the outside world, which is comparable to NTA, treats its employees the same way or most of them even worse. For me, money is enough for working half the year (!) and others which get more money and prostitute themselves by flying out of countries where I don’t want to life and don’t want to make business with. I don’t enjoy sitting 900 hours in a cockpit per year, either just to have my flying ego happy in a wide body or in a FA. Flying for a private owner: again prostitution. I have fun flying where and what and who we do. Most of the people I was flying with are excellent people to have in the CPT and have a drink with or two. Even the legacy carriers squeeze every bit out of their employees and treat them like numbers.

For me the company is good enough, the package is good, they treat me reasonable and feed me well and everyone looking or a better company: Free to move. The signs are leading the way for the better and I have the feeling that some people try hard to make it better. The numbers of resignations are average (not compared to the mayors of course) especially since the market is so wide open, we are not doing too bad. A lot of our “competitors” like ez and ryan or AB are losing a bad amount and refill with crap (I mean people even worse than me! :} ).

Looking at the count here in PPRUNE 133000 hits on the interview topic don’t give the HR bad dreams I guess.

Only the same small amount of people posting here worries me since we have a big bunch of people doing their job silent and would be more then welcome to give a more detailed view here.

Some of the MGT needs and will be changed I hope, some are really good so, some are jsut embarassing. The TAX thing is chaos as of now, the hotels are getting worse and need to improve again. Seniority needs to be transparent and will be pretty soon as you know. A Pension plan is coming up I hope and the need for the existence is not negotiable.

Anyway, who cares about my personal point of view anyway? I promised some more substantial than personal posts and topics so here we go:

Did anybody ever sing the song about the relationship between the people on line and the people in the office creating the pain?
The pilots got fed with a nice increase in salary (for certain countries this is true I have to say) compared to what happens to the people in the office. The average Portuguese employee gets around 22000 Euro per year before Tax according the EU. Working more then the pilots do and have no real benefits. The office does not grow the way the fleet and the pilots do and realize that we even are about to be treated better with a future pension plan and other things which are in the loop. Does this create a good working environment? Nope. I don’t think so. The imbalance is getting too steep, the brown stuff starting to move downhill. Growth needs to be balanced to all as well as the improve in lifestyle should move to every employee in NTA and not just to some which never seem to get enough.

Have to go, walk I mean: the extra mile again.

I like this new smile here, dont know here to put it so. So one more statement:

English beer is :yuk::yuk::yuk:

[Smeagel]

I have made balanced posts in the past. What happens is the 'pro' posters dispute the negative parts only and therefore they get highlighted. There are also enough of the rose tinted brigade around for me not to repeat their points. Do they make the bad points for me? No. (Still conspicuous by their absence I see).

Anyone can use 'search' and form their own opinions.

I've also said before that the office bods get the **** end of the stick. What does that tell you about NJE as a company?. It tells me they still do not know how to treat their staff. Turnover in the office is high and as always training there is little if non-existent. Examples abound of people being drafted in, given a desk (and nothing else) then castigated a month or two later for not performing. Well quelle surprise...........:hmm: What do you think is going to happen now they are confining recruitment to Portuguese people only?

Clearly you agree with this and I applaud you for it. But how can you describe such poor management in one moment and the next expect anyone reading this to believe that pilots should consider joining the company? They are managed by the same people, no?

Flying for a private owner: again prostitution. Why would you say that? What is the difference between flying for a single owner and flying for a company? There are some excellent owners out there, just because you have not met them does not mean they don't exist. Here's something else that may surprise you, I and others fly less than you and get paid more. We are also treated as professionals and with respect. Once you come to appreciate that maybe you will understand why NJE is NOT the pinnacle of the industry that some seem to think it is.

Why do they think this? Mainly because they have always been treated badly. Just because they have experienced worse does not necessarily make NJE good. GA in certain european countries is notoriously bad and it is noticeably the people from those countries who sing NJE's praises the loudest. At first anyway. They are so pleased to no longer be on call 24/7 with 'retrospective' days off and rest days down route they think they've won the lottery. Then reality sets in. Have you not noticed how many more negative posts there are on here from serving and recently departed NJE crew? That must tell you something.

I'm sorry but I've no idea what your comments about the SID's was meant to mean. If it is really relevant please explain and I shall address them.

[FourGreenNoRed]

Of course, there are Jobs around which accomodate all needs and flying for privater owners may or may not do the trick. The ones I know are asking their employees out of their rest whenever they deem it necessary. Dont want that, sitting on the phone and having hard feelings if you say NO, versus calling in sick if you are sick without consequences or fear for your job. Two weeks ON like most do is a No-No for myself. Just a personal point of view of course.

FM got better, I am quite happy with mine, however d'accord with others bad performance in the office. Again, tell me about the company of this size where this is not the case and I reconsider.

I still dont understand your agressiveness towards the motivation to warn everysingle poster here about how bad it is to work for the company. It sounds like hell when you describe it and its not even close to this. They must have hurt you really big.

You must really be THE lucky guy who found the right perfect Job.

Chapeau!

No worries with the SID, tried to use some graphic to describe this extramile which we all are supposed to go.

Cheers

[Smeagel]

Ah, got you now. The SID thing. Bit too tenuous for me.

Maybe my current job is payback for all the grief NJE gave me? Karma :cool:

[Kent BeTrue]

FourGreenNoRed

Whatever your issues with Smeagel and your love of NJE, you really shouldn't criticise other corporate pilot with your bias against other areas of the industry.

Some people live and fly in countries you wouldn't like to... well their choice. Maybe they actually like it there. Maybe they can't find a job in their own country. Maybe they like the excitement. Whatever their reasons you simply can't dismiss them as prostituteing themselves for doing a job you wouldn't want to.

Flying for a private owner.... Prostitution. In who's book. I've flown for many owners who show respect for me, for the crew and, believe it or not, for duty times and limitations. As Smeagel says, not all of them do, but then many companies are accused of massaging or adjusting FTL's also.

If you are happy with your package, then fine but please do not accuse pilot's whom you do not know of "prostituting" themselves when you do not know their reasons, whether they are equally happy or indeed, having fun flying a few hours a year and having a couple of drinks with their colleagues....

Rant Over... Fly Safe

As for English beer.... you just haven't found the one you like... Keep searching :ok:

[Smeagel]

but then many companies are accused of massaging or adjusting FTL's also.

There used to be an excellent masseur down south. Ooooh, what was his name....................?

I think his boss made him stop doing it though.

[falconbis]

happy NJE pilots are often low experienced who could not get a better job NJE is their achievment,
or ex military flying 24/7 for 3000 euros months so NJE greatimprovment too and new hire in honey moon, the other one are looking for a job.

[EatMyShorts!]

Right...I could work for other companies that YOU might be calling "better". I for my part am happy here at NJE. We all know that this soup needs some more spice in order to make it perfect but what do you expect from a company growing at such a pace?

Falconbis: if you do not like it here at NJE, go and work for a "better" company or start doing some constructive work on our conditions instead of only bitching about NJE!

[Smeagel]

EMS, why do you assume Falconbis has not already put some effort into improving conditions there?

By definition anyone who has worked for NJE has made a contribution. Maybe Falconbis, like so many before him/her has finally had enough?

[Smeagel]

some stuff
I considered a point by point response but that would bore just about everyone.
Hawkerpilot hit the nail on the head earlier in this thread when he explained why we bother. Is it a waste of our time? Does it benefit anyone else? We could ask the three people who PM'd me this week asking for information prior to accepting job offers from NJE.
I'll continue until I get bored. I cannot vouch for anyone else as I do not know them.
Thanks for your concern (genuinely) but I'm a grown up golem quite capable of deciding what does and does not benefit me. The amateur psychoanalysis is not required.
I am very interested in what kind of high-paying, more-freetime, direct-entry-captain-ops you all work for now.Shall I send you an application form? Oooops, you rascal. Nearly had me there :=:O

[pickingupice]

Hi Schmuck.
That reminds me of a joke about why certain people smell. The answer is so the blind can hate them too.
I have to admit SmeagleSmuck or SS as I shall refer to him now, is always full of irrational and biased opinions.
After all he is a pilot.
Would I welcome such a scallywag back into a company that I currently work in? Absolutely!
I don’t think his views are unrealistic or only show one side of an opinion, and
I believe he wasn’t treated particularly well by the company, so I think he behaves remarkably well.
Airborne I’ve found him knowledgeable and a fine handling pilot, in a MPA is CRM is very good. On the ground I’ve found him pleasant, funny and professional.
We all have our personality traits, some may like them others may not. You can’t say he would stab you in the back or lie to you.
I think NJE is an OK company, but then I’ve witnessed and been part of some different companies, which I have heard NJE management criticize as being cowboy. This in itself is very unprofessional. I believe NJE in a majority isn’t cowboy. However we are very Mickey Mouse about others!
So glass houses and stones gentlemen, or ladies, or transgender et al.
We in NJE have a very long, long way to go to be the best. But for VIP travel we are no Gordon Ramsey’s, more a Beefeater, or two for one Hungry Horse.
It’s hard to get on ones high horse about a company that has so many faults.
Being so widely dispersed its hard to get company spirit.
I have met some very, very good guys and yet recently I’ve met some that are not in my league, never mind some one I aspire too.
I would love NJE to be my career and stay forever, I really would. I hope we can surge thro the hypocrisy.
Unlike SS I’ve never been an optimist.
Dam, where’s the spell check?
The only reason I wrote this is that I think it’s very easy to turn things into a verbal nastiness and SS gives an opinion, whether it be right or wrong. NJE will not be seen in a good light if employees put him or other companies down. By all means, praise NJE, if you feel necessary and promote what’s been achieved, but saying he would not be welcomed back into the company by you because he’s a schmuck, hope your passenger/crew CRM is better.
Lets hope we don’t meet face to face as I may get opinionated too, but not on a national forum, or in a crew rest room or FBO in private where that sort of behavior belongs, out of public sight. SS fights his battles on his own and doesn’t need me or any one else to talk for him, so this is not on his request.
He’s more eloquent than I and less common.
As a last note,
would I recommend NJE? Yes.
Is it the best? No
Are there good people there? Yes
Are there some schmucks there? Yes
Is it for every one? No
Is it good to have two opinions, rather than one? I think so
peace out dudes

[Smeagel]

*some nice things about me

PUP. For a moment there I thought you knew me but I realised you were being complimentary so you obviously have me confused with someone else ;)

He sounds like a nice guy though.

[Smeagel]

Oh dear. I seem to have upset him.

In this thread I gave a concise answer and left N4641P to join the dots for himself. Apparently this is a Bad Thing.

In the roadshow thread N4641P said in answer to a couple of my questions(I'm paraphrasing slightly here) "If you cannot work out my position we are wasting bandwidth".

So it is alright for him to give me the brush off but not the other way around.:confused: Am I the only one thinking that this bears the pattern of certain other cut and run merchants who always fade away when it becomes a little specific in these threads? We all know who is missing, conspicuous by their absence. Why?

<slaps own forehead> Of course they are posting, how stupid of me. They are just not using their known/real names, they have multiple usernames on PPRuNe!! Devious chaps. Clearly some of them learned something in the military even if it wasn't CRM.

N4641P. If you would like me to respond to your points individually I shall do so, gladly. Say the word my old fruit.

[Flintstone]

I am very interested in what kind of high-paying, more-freetime, direct-entry-captain-ops you all work for now.

My current job (direct entry captain on CL604) pays me slightly more than I earned with NTAS plus similar benefits.

However my workload is much, much lighter and stress levels are now non-existent. None of the chaos, persistent changes, Blackberrying (is that a word?) and other aggravation I had become used to.

With NTAS I flew 650+ hours per year. In the last eight months I have flown 200 hours which equates to 300 per year or less than half of my workload at NTAS. Oh, and all my holiday applications were approved immediately, first time around.:O

I know of three other ex-NTAS pilots all of whom have landed far better deals. Salaries £20,000 better and permission to freelance on their days off at £1000 per day.

If you are interested I could possibly point you in the right direction.

[Flintstone]

N4641P.

It was unclear from your post whether or not you were asking a genuine question, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and provided the information. I deliberately did not name the companies thinking that if you were really interested I could give you the information via PM. After all out in the 'real' bizjet world we are pretty choosy about who we work with and 95% of jobs are filled by word of mouth.

In response you make a veiled accusation (I'm pretty sure I'm not misinterpreting you this time) that I was lying.

Give you the names of the companies? Frankly I'd rather stick needles in my eyes if that's your attitude. You want the jobs? Go find them yourself, just like the rest of us did.

[Dirty Bleeder]

More help required!!!!

I have spent significant amounts of time sifting through the emourmous quantities of information posted in all the Netjets threads - and I still have unanswered questions:confused:

I am due to leave military employment soon and recently received an offer of job at Netjets - which I now need to reply to.

Please could I have some straight talking (and simple - remember I'm still military!) clarification to the following:


1. It has been commented on in the Netjets threads that the per diems are taxed - surely this is not the case?

2. The medical cover (Bupa) - does this cover the whole (immediate) family, and do you have to pay the tax liability of the benefit?

3. If you do not take the option for the additional 6 days work - are you guaranteed 5 days off between tours.

4. I have read the information about the way the management have behaved in the past; and also how things are improving. But what is so bad about the company that causes such emotion. Surely they pay you what they say and when you go to work for 6 days you do as they request within the regulations are the contract?? Does it make any difference if you destinations change whilst you are on your 6 day tour??

5. Pension - even the interviewers did not know the details of their company pension. I've read the posts about it being finalised - but what is it at the moment for Brits, and what is it likely to be??

I'm sure I will think of more Q's over the next few days before I have to reply.

Thank you in anticipation of you assistance.

Kind Regards DB

[redsnail]

G'day DB,

I'll have a go at answering your questions.

Per diems aren't taxed in the UK they are paid as Euros though.

Medical like BUPA I believe covers the family, my husband's covered and he's not employed by NJE. I believe it's assessed as "reward in kind".
I've had a letter from the tax office asking about it and I've handballed it to the office.

The 5 days off in between the tours is pretty much guaranteed except during recurrent sim time. It has to fall in the 200 days per year/50 days per quarter. It is rare to have less than 5 days off in between tours unless you've bidded for leave or SDOs. (special days off) I didn't volunteer for extra days.

Pension. I hope that will improve too. That does need work. I understand that the office is doing such that. No, I don't know the numbers as I'm currently enjoying a reasonable rose at the moment. (days off)

I've flown with many ex-mil guys from the UK and the vast majority of them enjoy the job and the entertaining challenges it brings. After Mil life, NJE is fun.

You do need to ask yourself as to what sort of flying you want to do. If doing 2-4 sector days zooming all over Europe with a reasonable amount of autonomy plus meeting some really nice pax/owners and the possibility of flying some of the newest kit on the market, then NJE's for you.

I hope this helps.

[Flintstone]

BUPA is a taxable benefit. If it is not properly accounted for by HR (as happened in the past) expect a bill at the end of the tax year.

[bizantin]

NJE is ok if you are looking for experience or if you have a pension (BA or mil). If you do not fall into one of the two, you will be just leaving after 2 or 3years because there is no long term perspectives so far.
What kind of company can hire people and not being able to answer : the pension plan is ....?
Overall and personal pension deducted, the salary is just bad for the demanding work especially if you are on small cabin or large cabin.

[Dirty Bleeder]

Thank you for the time to answer my Q's so far - but I knew they would be more!!

1. Can you work for other companies in your time off?

2. If no - is that a flying restriction therefore allowing you to work as a ground advisor to military contracts (it will help pay the bills until left-hand seat!)

3. If you are happy to stay on the small fleet (never had an APU to keep you cool/warm anyway) will you progress quicker through to leftseat/training Capt/TRI/TRE?

4. If you would like to get involved in the management side is your pay increased to reflect a loss in per diems?

5. On a Brit contract is your Basic pay paid in Pounds?

ALL information is gratefully received, good or bad - Smeagel please add your thoughts for a wholistic insight.

Thanks DB

[redsnail]

DB,

1. I don't know. Others will know for sure.
2. Not sure, the main thing the days off are for is to ensure you're rested.
3. If you're on the small fleet, usually it means "fast upgrade" to the LHS. If you let the training dept know if you have specialist training skills I am sure they'll happily snap you up. It used to be that if you did your time on the small fleet then you were usually promoted to the bigger cabins "quicker" although I haven't seen much evidence of that lately, many have come to the mid sized cabin. (you get an APU)
4. I believe so. You may have to move to Lisbon though.
5. If you're on a UK contract, the basic's in £. Your per diems are in €.

I hope this helps.

[Capt Crash]

Per Diems are not taxed.

Pension is all set up if you live in the UK. It is pretty poor but, it is better than nothing and show me anyone who now has a good pension open to new joiners. If you don't live on The Island, it is still work in progress.

BUPA is great (but I do live in the UK) and is taxed as a benefit. My tax code was adjusted accordingly. They pay for dental, pay for my specs and if I get sick they move quickly. They cover spouse and kids.

I don't get involved with the management unless I have to. There are some great ones and some who are so poor it makes me laugh. The management want to work you as hard as possible and pay the least it can get away with, that's business. The very top managers are not muppets, they know that happy employees are productive, it is the to$$ers in middle management that cause the problems. It will all get better but it takes time, maybe if the office moved to Northern Europe it would help.

And I almost always get 6 on 5 off.

Flying on your days off is only allowed with management approval. They are not too keen for you to be flying for a charter company when Netjets has paid for all your training. Flight school stuff is ok I think.

I am still here mostly out of curiosity and a lack of imagination.

[Abeo]

Hello to all,

My question is quite specific:
I currently fly for a Middle East airline. I am looking for a lifestyle change with a Lisbon base. How do ex-airline guys currently rate Netjets (roster, lifestyle, family life, salary & benefits good for a young family)?

Thanks in advance,
Abeo

[Abeo]

Sorry Dirty Bleeder not meaning to barge in...

[Dirty Bleeder]

Abeo - not at all. The more information I see the better.

Especially as a family man myself and with the airlines as another option!!

DB

[CL300]

Abeo :
Roster OK 50 / quarter 200 years inc vacations/Training no change in roster sometimes called for extended day but pilot discretion most of the times.

Life style : GA pilot lifestyle, a little bit worse since you are going to fly more than a leg a day, but you have a fixed roster.

Family Life :It is a life style so your family has to follow or get a new family

Salary : UK based or Portugal based, well to average, Others can comment only on the french corner where the grass needs watering. ( per diem are fully taxable for instance)

Netjets is an employer, not the worst, it is a new concept, but bottom line it is GA charter, if you can handle it , it is great fun, if not find a family plane or low cost or big airline, or do something else.
you will have to fly on xmas, New year's eve and so on , at night with reverse jetlag, like in ANY other company..
Among anything, Fly safe, and stay out of the trees !

[Flintstone]

No interest from my side to move to a small company. So yes you did take me wrong. So that justifies your snotty response? Some people like yourself are happy being 'just a number'. Others are not.:rolleyes:

Interested pilots migt get the wrong idea from some of the posts here where it is all about 'my job is better than NJ'. Why should they get "...the wrong idea"? If someone's job is better than those at NJ why should they not be allowed to say so? Who died and left you in charge?

Many people I fly with prefer this over airlines, so the story about inexperienced guys at NJ is untrue as well. For most people I know i was a deliberate choice to move to NJ coming from airlines or military. Y'know what? I tried to understand that, really I did but after the eighth attempt at making it legible I began to lose the will to live :ugh:

[Abeo]

Thanks N4641P and CL300 for the info.

This feels like the right move for what I want out of life: an interesting job and quality time with my family.
Having done the GA thing for a few years prior to airline flying I think I may have a fair idea of what a day of work might entail at Netjets.

Seems I should polish that CV and get some studying done then,

Cheers,
Abeo

[hawkerpilot]

"Those who leave with a lot of noise and continue to make noise long after they have left, tend to be the type of persons who never gave much effort to make things work in the first place, so this puts this noise in some perspective."

N4641P, did you study psychology?

I had a cousin who studied psychology, but he ended up being a carpenter.........:ooh:

[bizantin]

Anything bad about being a carpenter?

[angelorange]

a carpenter from some place called nazareth paid a heavy price - but probably not for his furniture!

[hawkerpilot]

"Anything bad about being a carpenter?"

not at all, worked out fine for him ,

started to say sensible things.........:)

contrary to N4641blabla....;)