Stockport Air Disaster

[Nov71]

40 years ago today! Can anyone remember the story?

[White Knight]

Off the top of my head - Argonaut from Palma to Manchester, problems with fuel selection (crew unaware), "bit of trouble with RPM", circled off the localiser - back on finals, engine failure, unable to maintain glidepath - crashed and burned in the centre of Stockport. Next to a police station...

[barry lloyd]

White Knight is correct.
Frighteningly (for me!), I remember it well, but I didn't realise it was 40 years ago:ouch:
The full story is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockport_Air_Disaster

[The AvgasDinosaur]

I was at the ceremony yesterday, don't know if it was coincidence but very nice wing rock salute by LH Airbus overhead the service. Just about at the right moment in time too.
Be lucky
David

[IB4138]

Have a look in Misc Forums, Aviation History and Nostalgia, Argonaut/North Star Memories and Observations thread.

The accident is covered there.

[Albert Driver]

As an impressionable young student working at Farnborough for that summer, I was given a very graphic detailed tour of the inside of what was left of the cockpit, by an enthusiastic Accident Investigator. I can picture it to this day.

It left me in no doubt at all that Aircraft Accidents are Very Bad for Pilots. When I later started flying professionally, that experience formed the basis of a strong attachment to air safety which served me well.

Stockport was a tragedy, but one from which much was learned by many.

[fireflybob]

Caused by inadvertant transfer of fuel due (very slightly) incorrect position of fuel cocks I seem to recall. This was well before the days of MORs etc but the problem was known about when the type was operated by the previous company.

A year or two after the accident the BBC did a documentary on the investigation part of which was to run the same type of a/c (Argonaut) on the ground at EMA and manage the fuel system in the same way to confirm the main cause of the accident. Quite chilling to see the engines on one side failing in quick succession. (Am working from memory here as I was only 16 years old at the time!)

[chiglet]

fireflybob,
Many moons ago, I was a "Semi-Professional" photographer...[couldn't afford to do it "full time" but made a bit doing it part time.....Good start eh? BUT
My Wholesaler was the BBC cameraman who filmed the "Bits" for the progremme, and he was honestly "bricking" it during the "Engine Out" trials.
As I recall, it was a damn good programme.
watp,iktch

[Sir George Cayley]

When you see where the a/c came down behind the Police Station in what was at the time a scrubby bit of land it is amazing. The a/c's forward speed must have been very low. I think it was a weekend morning and the one thing that I remember is how small the crowd of onlookers was in the photos taken at the time.

One thing that has always troubled me is that, I believe, the Capt decided on approach (because one engine had failed) to perform a GA (known as an overshoot in those days) The problems worsened and the rest ...


But what if he'd said "Sod it - we're 4 miles to go and 3 donks still turning"?

Also, didn't one of the aircrew survive? What happened to them?

Sad day:(

Sir George Cayley

[chiglet]

AFAIK,
The a/c lost a donk at 12 [ish]miles and another at 6 miles [Outer, then inner]
There you are 6 mile final....."Oh, we've lost two engines..
"What do I do"?
We ALL know in hindsight....
watp,iktch
p.s.
Yes a Stewardess survived...only to perish going back into the BOAC B707 that [literally] lost a donk at LHR trying to help a disabled peron out of the inferno....she got the BEM [I think]
kh

[Midland 331]

Capt. Marlow survived.

My uncle was a "ground engineer who flew", (rather than a flight engineer) on the fleet.

The fuel transfer problem was well known, but ready to catch the unwary, fatigued, or both.

The effect of such a loss on a small airline cannot be underestimated.

There is more on this on the "Argonaut/North Star" thread on AH and N.

The young station manager at Manchester at the time was a chap called Michael Bishop...

r

[STATSMAN]

Yes it was weekend a Sunday I think. I was driving down Wellington Road South & Manchester City Police cars where racing up Wellington Road (In those days Stockport & Manchester had different police forces), thought that's strange. It was only when I returned from the classic car rally to Blackpool I found what had happened. A friend was orphaned at 17 losing her parents & brother.

STATSMAN

[abeaumont]

I remember it well, also the B707 crash at Heathrow. I was a sixth former at the time in a school a couple of miles from Heathrow. I vaguely recall that the engine that dropped off landed in one of the reservoirs near Staines. If it did, it would have been quite a splash. I heard at the time that passengers had some difficulty in getting out as there were no steps to hand and it was before the days of slides. I was told that one refused to jump and blocked the dorway and had to be physically pushed from the plane. A pop singer I think. That may well be all completely wrong - it was a long time ago, so long that I was actually a teenager.


Chiglet wrote: "p.s.
Yes a Stewardess survived...only to perish going back into the BOAC B707 that [literally] lost a donk at LHR trying to help a disabled peron out of the inferno....she got the BEM [I think]"

Sorry, not true.... Julia Partleton did not die till 1996, and in a way that should not have happened - see:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/htmlContent.jhtml?html=/archive/1998/11/22/nair22.html

[Mr_Grubby]

There is a very good book, titled :-

The Day The Sky Fell Down.
The Story of the Stockport Air Disaster.

By Steve Morrin.

ISBN 0 9534503 0 9

Tells the whole story very well.

Clint.

[bean]

The stewardess victim in the 1968 BOAC accident was Barbara Jane Harrison.
She had no connection with British Midland whatsoever.

She was posthumously awarded the George Cross no less for heroism not the silly BEM.

www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/women_gcs.htm.

Would it be possible if posting "facts" on a historical forum to check their accuracy first?:ugh:

[seac]

Never forget that Sunday morning . Living in Bredbury at the time, so under the flightpath, and my uncle, a driving instructor at the time , was one of the first people on the scene. Now 79 years old ,he suffers recurrant nightmares each anniversary.

[chiglet]

Sorry old bean In my defense
1 It was late[ish]
2 It was my 4th "Early"
3 It was a [rather] vague memory (the 707)
When Stockport happened, I was in the BBC TV room at RAF Patrington
with my mate. His Gran lived less than 100yds from the scene...he was
rather concerned.
4 If possible....see above :ok:
watp,iktch

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

See also http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=265298&page=4. If I'd waited another hour before Srl 69, I could have posted in a more appropriate place.

I saw the first approach from Mill Lane, Cheadle, while square bashing with the ATC. The Wing drill competition demanded lots of practice. From the top of the school bus, or the No 73 if I'd missed it, it looked odd for weeks afterwards; a big white (ish) fin sticking up amongst the buildings.

[jabberwok]

One blink and where did 40 years go???

I recall it well but if my grey cells are working properly wasn't the Argonaut crash preceded by a DC4 accident at Perpignan on the same day?

[Speedbird48]

Amazing, that it was all those years ago as i was there or very close by.

I was flying a DC6 that day and refueled from the same truck as the BM aircraft, in fact I emptied the truck, and had to finish with another one.

We had a magneto problem and had to return to the ramp to fix it. It was a leaking oil seal in the distributor. Once cleaned out all was well ,and we departed.

Many, many months later I was hauled into the Chief Pilots office to meet 2 "men from the ministry". They quized me uphill and down dale telling me that I must have had engine trouble all the way home. I did not, and stuck to my guns.

They then told me that they were going down the road of fuel contamination as the cause of the Stockport accident. My testimony sent them back to the drawing board!!

The fuel cock issue was not a new one. Any self respecting Flight Engineer on DC4's, DC6's, and by association the Canadair knew how to set the valves in the in between position and with judicial use of boost pumps you could pump fuel from one tank to another. This was very handy when the refuelller had put the wrong amount in the wrong place, and normally done on the ground.

As for the Flight Engineer issue there was no requirement by the ARB to have a Flight Engineer as they had allowed the things to fly with only 2 pilots. All the charter companies had F/E's (flying spanners) on board. Some functioned just as a DC6/DC7 F/E and others just sat there and took the engine readings etc.

13,000 hours, and 40 years later, how do I know???

[PaperTiger]

wasn't the Argonaut crash preceded by a DC4 accident at Perpignan on the same day?Night before - Air Ferry GAPYK.

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

Jabberwok, the Air Ferry DC-4 was the day before, 3 June 1967. 88 killed. We also had the BEA Comet off Crete later that same year. Air Ferry had also lost another DC-4 in January 1967 near Frankfurt on a cargo flight. These really were the times when flying was dangerous and sex was safe.

[Speedbird48]

Yes, you are correct it was 'YK, and I flew for Air Ferry at the time.

The cause of 'YK was carbon monoxide poisioning of the crew due to a crack in the cockpit heater.

The one in Frankfurt was a cargo charter for BEA from Manchester, full of chemicals, with a brand new, older, direct hire Captain. The F/O was found with both of his thumbs broken off as if he had been on the controls and trying to pull back??

The danger of sex was still there, if the wife caught you!!! Same ending different problem.

Sad times.

Brian.

[jabberwok]

As one Navy pilot said of those times, "Funerals were part of the job." Albeit it was probably more true of military aviation..

[chevvron]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it flying a PAR rather than ILS? I'm sure I met a controller at Lindholme in about '73 who I was told was the talkdown controller, and when the BBC re-created it, although you heard his voice, you saw an actor. He said it just started deviating from both GP and CL and nothing he could do would bring it back until it eventually disappeared from his display. I do remember his name but I won't post it.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Chevvron, I think it was a ½nm SRA on an ACR7/ACR 424, but what the hell. It's an awful feeling, whatever the kit:uhoh:

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Starways lost a DC-4 at Dublin due to the same inadvertant fuel transfer snag. I think they all got off that one as it was on flat ground. Unlike Stockport.
Be lucky
David