J* all isn't as it seems

[QFinsider]

Rumour has it J* international flights ex a northern port are catered FOC to passengers.

Oh and further to that the Singapore Dariwn Cairns flight is likely to return to mainline in the near term as J* customer service leaves many soo disgruntled and is apparently not doing too well..

And I so advise..:E

Seems the model is not holding up in the real world :E

[Dropt McGutz]

I actually heard the SIN-DRW-CNS flight was actually doing okay and it was fully catered, however that was about three months ago.

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

We can only hope the ****star model fails, QF I.:)

[Angle of Attack]

I tend to have an Optimistic view on the Jet* thing anyway, Regardless of how the public views them or whatever, I believe we as Pilots are in the box seat atm. A massive shortage is looming worldwide and we are in the position to reap the rewards, Low Cost or No low cost, they need drivers so let's just relax. Low Cost carriers, All cost carriers, Ultra Low cost carriers, bring em on! Just tightens the market for pilots anyway and it can only be looking up!
As for Jet* they are OK domestically, however if there are disruptions they never contacted me, unlike Virgin, Virgin $hits over them though from a pax viewpoint, and Internationally well I just would never fly with them, I can get cheaper fares from other full service Airlines anyway.:)


Edited because I said Box Seat twice which sounded crappy lol

[fender]

Would you all agree that the difference between Jokestar and Tiger is that Qantas is trying to drive a wedge between pilots and reduce pay where Tiger is a true LCC..
Maybe... yes, maybe no.

[Angle of Attack]

Fender,

I'd say it's a bit of a combination of both! Whether it works or not is another story! :E

[lowerlobe]

fender..Not just pilots but all staff !!!!

[blow.n.gasket]

I wonder what the CEO of Tiger will get paid?

[flitegirl]

correct.... flights to Japan serve food and beverages free to customers who book through the Japanese agent (ie, book from Japan). This was on the press release some months ago.

[Dixondik]

J* are value for money, because there's a great chance of being stranded at your destination for longer than you had planned. Heck they did it for Hawaiian tourists, why not else where?:}

'J*, all day, every day, waiting in transit'

[Condition lever]

4PWs - I guess the only thing full of crap is in fact you.
Straight from the website as an example (in SGD$):

SIN - CNS
$566.47
per Passenger
Mon, 18 Jun 07
22:15 JQ 58

RETURN
CNS - SIN
$598.02
per Passenger
Tue, 03 Jul 07
13:00 JQ 57

$566.47
https://jetstar.com/img/NBP/imgPlusButton.gif DEPARTURE Total
Adult$399.00Surcharges, Fees and Taxes$167.47Airfare per Adult$566.47Subtotal
1 × Adults$566.47
$598.02
https://jetstar.com/img/NBP/imgPlusButton.gif RETURN Total
Adult$399.00Surcharges, Fees and Taxes$199.02Airfare per Adult$598.02Subtotal
1 × Adults$598.02

total $1,164.49

I don't think J* will miss your patrionage.

[lowerlobe]

Condition lever...

Even if 4PW's got his figures wrong why is the J* cost you posted more than the full service QF fare let alone the AO ticket?

[speeeedy]

Just punched in 3 random dates for CNS - SIN:

Out on the 21st, Back on the 30th:

$1921.99 Return ($2451 SGD)

Out on the 30th, Back on 10th July:

$1871.99 Return ($2388 SGD)

Out on 10th july: back on 20th July:

$1571.99 return ($2006 SGD)

ALL DAY EVERY DAY RIP OFF

[speeeedy]

Thought I'd look at QF, CNS - SIN (via BNE) on the same days

Out 21st back 30th

$2183.00 return ($2785 SGD)

Out 30th back 10th july

$1564.00 return ($1995 SGD)

Out 10th July back 20th July

$1556.00 return ($1985 SGD)

So you can travel further on QF for less, now which is the low fares airline??

[cunninglinguist]

....or you could go 1/2 way round the world to do the same trip with BA or QF @ $2050 0r $2200 respectively.
So there, you do have a choice.

AoA, the reason VB craps on Jet* is that they are charging pretty close to, if not spot on, QF prices. VB is just AN without the service.

Not defending Jet* per se, but how about you lot compare apples to apples :hmm:

[Condition lever]

Lowerlobe -

4PWs example was for SIN - CNS - SIN in Singaporean dollars (SGD).
As such I gave an example back in SGD.
The currency conversion rate is 1SGD = 0.784AUD.
Therefore the flight I quoted is $AUD913.
Which I believe is cheaper than QF and AO.

Hope that clears that up.

[lowerlobe]

Condition lever,

Actually, no I think you’ve got it wrong.4PW’s quoted the fare on AO at $900 Sing whereas you got it at $1164 Sing ($913 Aust) at your exchange rate of .784/1.00 Aust .This is also only $6.00 cheaper than the QF ticket.

In fact I decided to check myself and choosing the cheapest jet saver fare from Cairns to Singapore the J* ticket with taxes was $1371.99 Aust including taxes.

Using your exchange rate this comes to $1749.98 Sing

This was departing Cairns for Singapore on the 6th and departing Singapore for Cairns on the 10th.

[Condition lever]

My quote was for SIN - CNS and then CNS - SIN not as per your CNS - SIN - CNS.
Have another look on the days I quoted - this is a direct copy from the web site.
As AO are not flying this route any more the comparison is hardly valid.
However if you were to factor in inflation etc. etc....
I question whether 4PWs example of $900SGD was ever available.
If you wish to fly CNS - BNE - SIN and get a cheaper flight then so be it.
Sometimes time saving comes at a premium.

[MIss Behaviour]

Even if the DRW/SIN flight was catered FOC management is short sighted if they think it's just about food, or lack of.

Other factors that annoy passengers re JQI DRW/SIN is:

a) Misrepresentation of product - they think QF355 means they are travelling Qantas not on JQ57.

b) No frequent flyer points - "but it's a Qantas flight number".

c) No through checking of baggage to certain airlines outside the One World carriers.

d) They cannot check you in to a connecting QF flight eg QF5 SIN/FRA even if your bags are checked through. The JQ Navitaire system does not interface with the Qantas Departure Control System for the purpose of passport & immigration info. As a result the pax have to queue up for hours in SIN for their onward boarding pass when it used to be so easy to get all the boarding passes at the first departure point when DRW/SIN was operated by Qantas. This applies in reverse so you can imagine how well this goes downafter a long flight from Europe to Singapore.

When management 'brainstorm' these ideas they should ask themselves if they would want to fly Jetstar. We all know the answer to that one, so why on earth to they think it's acceptable to the general public if it's something they wouldn't do themselves???

[The Kavorka]

Don't waste your time Condition Lever..

There seems to be a lot of angry Skygods out there that love to bag JQ all the time.....It's getting really boring..

They have to face the fact that they are yesterdays pilots..

Todays airlines are lean operations acting like a bus/train service more and more each day, and if the Skygods don't get with the program they could be left behind!!!!!:ok:

[Back Seat Driver]

Kav.. You're a real Knob - There are quite a few good men/women amongst the J* crew and I bet they are embarrassed as hell at your inane drivel.

[I'm Driving]

I'm very impressed Kav. Very constructive debate.
So, Just who on this thread is a "skygod"? And what did they say that was inflammatory? Or do you just have no other argument? At least Condition Lever was adding to this debate with research.
Now my opinion. Jetstar is as, if not more, expensive (than the old QF price, which of course I have no way of Validating) because they are the only airline that do it. Monopoly, and Dixon is the little guy with the hat.

[Dixondik]

I'm driving with that comment!:D

[lowerlobe]

Condition Lever..

"My quote was for SIN - CNS and then CNS - SIN not as per your CNS - SIN - CNS"

Are you saying that it is cheaper to fly from Sin/Cns than it is to fly Cns/Sin ?

Apart from that there seems to be some discrepancy in fare quotes here.My quote however this afternoon was for over $1700 sin.For a low cost carrier that does not seem good when you could have purchased a qf airline fare with full service for less.

[sinala1]

Perhaps Condition Lever was referring to SIN - CNS and CNS-SIN booked as 2 separate single sectors, rather than booked as a return ticket?

[Condition lever]

Lowerlobe - Yes - it can be cheaper to fly from one destination return than the reciprocal.

Please tell me how you could buy a full service QF fare for that route when QF does not fly it?
Obviously you could go via SYD/BNE etc. to fly QF, but would you do this?

I have produced a quote for a fare for $SGD1164.
Are you disputing this? - if so check the website for yourself.

[ferris]

Be careful quoting prices;
I was amazed to find out (whilst living overseas)that it was cheaper for me to purchase tickets for family wishing to visit me from that end. ie. Consistently $200 cheaper to buy the ticket o/s and obtain a booking number, have the family member present at an airline rep in oz and have the ticket printed, than for said family member to walk in and buy the ticket themselves. Never could get a straight answer as to why.
Also, another anomoly is directional pricing. If the loads are heavier in one direction, then it is entirely possible to have standard fares that are quite different depending on direction of travel.
Anyway, back to the catfight....

[lowerlobe]

I was referring to ther previous QF fare quoted.The basis of a LCC is that it is cheaper than a legacy airline.Flights to other destinations that other full service carriers service are similarly priced to jetstar.In fact there was one with SIA (full service) and included a stopover in Singapore for only $150 more than the J* fare.

I have just checked the web site and a one way fare CNS/SIN was initially $536 (jetsaver fare) then with taxes it jumped to $698.Both of these are in Australian dollars.

This then converts to $890.00 Sing and that is only one way and on the web site as of 5 minutes ago...

[Condition lever]

Lowerlobe - Thanks!!!! - you are proving my point for me.

Enter the details as I have said!

You will get the same price that I have stated.

A return flight originating in SIN on those dates!!!!

[DutchRoll]

There seems to be a lot of angry Skygods out there that love to bag JQ all the time.....It's getting really boring..
And apparently a lot of passengers who've tried their one and only experiment with JQ too!
Todays airlines are lean operations acting like a bus/train service more and more each day, and if the Skygods don't get with the program they could be left behind!!!!!
Which would be great if "lean" was not an industry euphemism for "as cheap & nasty as we can make it". And they (whoever they are) will be left behind what? JQ Asia? JQ International who are chartering QF 767s to do what they can't? I'll be fascinated to see how long Dixon and Joyce can keep up the facade, especially after Tiger arrives.

[lowerlobe]

There seems to a be a substantial variation in fare price depending on the day.Your quote was $1164 Sing and the price I was quoted for different days in June was $1464 Sing.

My point was that the original fare quoted for QF doing this flight was just over $1100 Sing so for a low cost carrier there does not seem to be much of a saving.

[The Kavorka]

Dutchroll

Have you travelled on a QF service lately....

Beaten up old tired a/c, grumpy old F/A's and the **** they shovel you to eat on our "Flagship" airline is a disgrace!!!

That my friend is the def of cheap and nasty!!!!!!!!!:mad::mad:

And there supposed to be a full service airline....

[lowerlobe]

The Kavorka...
What about the same instant coffee on both airlines that you pay for on J*..

just another anti QF grump

[fender]

I just check ticket with Gumby Airways LCC.. From Tibooburra to Anchorage.
Shocking.. Was 297 Balooshkars. RIP OFF

[Angle of Attack]

Regardless of everyones gripes about particular Airlines its all dollars for us as pilots! And its only going to get better! Maybe Kavorka is jealous after being in his crappy office for ages haha! Regardless of the fares mate, our salaries will increase especially in the near future! Sorry there is not a pencil pusher shortage looming! lol! Its all good lets chill and enjoy the rewards! For once we can ignore the bulging idiot middle managers and realise the fact that they dont control in real terms any business!! Yay!:}

[Angle of Attack]

As a side note no I dont believe Jet* is cheaper overall, but its all about perception, but hey Today Tonight and ACA rates pretty well so I guess we face this world reality!

[4PW's]

Dude, I'm sorry to have rocked your boat. You seem more distressed than I was paying all that coin back then. Clearly, Crapstar changed their prices and for that I'm glad because it's a more direct flight.

Nonetheless, when AO stopped flying the route for as low as S$750 return, tickets I did manage to buy, at the last minute mind you, Qantas started the very next day at the prices I quoted. And when they stopped, the very next day the Crapstar tickets were as quoted.

Whatever; they're down in price now, and I'm buying. Sure glad I finally made mention of something that's been irking me for quite a while because in amongst that whirlwind you and Kapersky's offspring whipped-up, you managed to create something good.

Thanks, but Crapstar still are, well, crap:E.

[raft rower]

Have heard through the grapevine, jetstar are reviewing their services to Japan from Cairns, and maybe reduced from the current QF/AO schedule. Word is that the Japanese tour groups are avoiding them and booking mass seats else where. It's all about choice i guess.....:p :E

[cokecropduster]

Travel Agents do not receive any fees or money to book their customers on JetStar.... Japanese are very very angry=JetStar are in trouble. It takes the Japanese a very long time to forgive and forget! QF are also struggling on the Japan routes.

[MIss Behaviour]

Raft Rower & Cokecropduster

What is it that the Japanese don't like about Jetstar? Obviously the 'free' meal doesn't make a shred of difference. GD & AJ must've been dreaming if they thought is was all about free tucker.

I always thought that providing a free meal for some and not for others was asking for trouble. I'm sure Japanese tour grounps pay less for their fare than other pax yet these others get diddly squat.

You cannot have different rules for different people either provide meals foc for everyone or everyone pays.

I think management assumed that Jetstar would take off and be a bit hit like AO was. How wrong they were. :* :*

[Condition lever]

Was AO A big hit???????:rolleyes:

[lowerlobe]

Question from Condition lever...

"Was AO A big hit"...

Well,that depends on you you are talking to.It appears however,that J* is not.

The J* model is a big hit with backpackers and those who would normally take the train or bus.

QF management under Menadue understood the Japanese market but since then have tried to cut corners and we are now seeing the result.

One thing the Japanese market is not is the J*/ backpacker model.:hmm:

[max autobrakes]

Judging the amount of spin doctoring by JQ management regarding the piss poor loads,the public might just be deciding that the AO model was a damn sight better than the Coles/Cafeteria budget brigade model over longer distances!:eek:

[QFinsider]

The very interesting thing about the "model" is that it leaves the genius of dwarf1 and dwarf2 with nowhere to go...

Yield is bugger all, service is non existent..Where are they going to go if the travelling public fail to endorse their tacky excuse for an airline? There is not much to sacrifice in order to hold the market.

Me thinks the fallacy will be proven unviable before too much longer. :E

[kellykelpie]

The CNS-SIN sectors are flown by Jetstar Asia and they are not crapstar.

The cabin crew want to serve, are happy to serve and do a great job. The food is top notch.

Don't bag something you have never tried. The feedback from the pax is always great.

[Condition lever]

Ahhhh.... the three wise men (or was that monkeys???), lowerlobe, max autobrakes and QFinsider.

Never one to let facts get in the way of a good story.... perhaps you guys don't (or can't) read news papers so for your benefit....

Jetstar star of Qantas Group

Airline Code [JST] View More Jetstar News (http://peanuts.aero/low_cost_airline_news/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogairlinecode&id=86)
(CAPA) Qantas released traffic figures for 2006/07 up to May-07, in which it showed that Jetstar flew 7.0 million passengers to the end of May-07, compared to 5.26 million in 2005/06 - a 33% increase.
In contrast, Qantas domestic passengers rose 3.5%, QantasLink passengers rose 16.8%, and Qantas International passengers dropped 6.3%.

Revenue Passenger Kilometres (RPKs) rose 7.5% for the Group, but by 67.4% for Jetstar, 5.4% for Qantas Domestic, 20.7% for QantasLink and by just 1.6% for Qantas International.

Date posted: 06-Jul-07

[blueloo]

No doubt those growth figures include all the QF codesharing flights with Jetstar that we seem to do all the time????

That would be a pretty fast way to increase your figures wouldnt it....!

[lowerlobe]

Condition Lever...what is the point of your post?

I was referring to the decline in Japanese pax on J*.Here is a news article on J* and it's Japanese market....

"THE Qantas Group is losing money on its once lucrative Japanese services after the high dollar has forced tourists to abandon Australia as a destination.

The drop in Japanese tourists has prompted Jetstar to drop prices on outbound fares in an attempt to stimulate travel on its routes"

Although mini Darths explanation that this was because of the exchange rate is a joke.The Japanese haver never worried about the exchange rate against the US $ so why all of a sudden would they be concerned about the Australian$.

Could it be that they are not so happy with QF being replaced with a LCC?

[bob55]

The CNS-SIN sectors are flown by Jetstar Asia and they are not crapstar.

The cabin crew want to serve, are happy to serve and do a great job. The food is top notch.

Don't bag something you have never tried. The feedback from the pax is always great.

DRW-SIN on JQ will set you back nearly $900 return. The same route on Tiger starts at around $350 return.

QF mainline used to charge $1050 return.

JQ is way overpriced on this route. DRW-SIN should be in line with DRW-MEL/BNE, which is around $200 each way. Same distance.

[Going Boeing]

CL

You seem to have forgotten that Jetstar was given routes previously established and flown by mainline - they did not have to actively seek market share (a very difficult task which Tiger will have to do). The way that management pronounce Jetstar a "runaway success" is simply spin aimed at those members of the public who have no idea of what is happening in the airline industry. Jetstar is simply a vehicle designed to make it difficult for other carriers to enter the market and to undermine QF mainline staff terms and conditions. From perusing your posts, it appears that you have not yet grasped the reality of the situation - you and your JQ peers are being used by Dixon to undermine the pilot profession.

[Condition lever]

GB

Why is it that the catch cry of undermining mainline's T&C is always rolled out in any discussion. Didn't this happen when mainline crews agreed to fly under AO's T&C. Or perhaps you could discuss the pros and cons with the 50 or so of your mates that applied to come to J* under the MOU.
Cant say that either of those two issues have done much for your T&C.

[Going Boeing]

CL
Nobody in mainline were happy with the accepting lower conditions when AO was being established. The threat was made that outside pilots would be used if efficiency gains were not made by mainline pilots (no pilot shortage at that time - quite the opposite in fact). Extensive negotiations resulted in a deal whereby scheduling and accomodation savings were agreed but essentially the salaries remainded close to mainline levels. This had a significantly lessor effect of lowering conditions than when the IPG agreed to Dixon's conditions for Jetstar Domestic (and subsequently Jetstar International which was more amazing because on this occasion there was no loaded gun aimed at your heads).
WRT the mainline pilots who applied to transfer to Jetstar under the MOU, the majority of mainline pilots urged these pilots to take a long term view of their profession and withdraw their application. The small number who have transferred may end up finding that the desire for a command has resulted in a poorer lifestyle (wrt spouse and children).
QF management will not allow any more transfers under the MOU as they cannot afford to lose any more pilots - they know that they are unlikely to get all the pilots needed over the next three years and that is on full mainline Certified Agreement (EBA) salary and T's & C's.

[lowerlobe]

Condition Lever...it is true that AO was J* Mk1 but it is not only tech crew who have had a negative effect on their T & C's.

J* has lowered them for Cabin crew,ground staff,check in etc....

If your happy with that, it does not mean we are...

[blow.n.gasket]

Slight thread drift I know.
A mate sent this to me from one of his mates .
Any idea as to what is going on here?
Any answers to the questions below greatly appreciated.





if you could pass this onto him on my behalf. The travel agent is saying that Qantas is not honouring my flight from Honolulu on the ?th Oct - flight QF 4 (even though they have had the booking for 4 months) and I wanted to check the veracity of their claims below before I start getting medieval with them!!

I have been in contact with Qantas over the last few weeks in regards to our group flights. Due to severe Qantas overbooking problems Qantas are not honoring any of our group bookings other than our original dates of October. I know due to work you needed to return straight after the race. I can still get a flight on the ?th but the price will increase by over $800 to return on this date..

Due to the introduction of Jetstar to Honolulu, Qantas now service 767
planes rather than the 747 jumbos to and from Honolulu. In turn there are
now not as many seats and they are not honoring the last fares as it is not viable for them. They have advised me as it is the flight on the ?th with Qantas is oversold.

I wanted to give you a few options before proceeding. One is to fly with
Qantas on the ?rd as you have booked at the moment. Returning with Jetstar on the ?th arriving home on the ?th.

The other option is to fly with Air Canada (as below). With the below
option however it would mean an overnight in Honolulu due to the late
arrival of the flight. Honolulu Airport Hotel has rooms for the night for
$230 per room¦

QF 408 ?OCT MELSYD 0700 0820
AC 34 ?OCT SYDHNL 1000 2350 (Arr: ?Oct)
AC 33 ?OCT HNLSYD 0010 0650 (Arr: ?Oct)
QF 417 ?OCT SYDMEL 0830 1000

Please let me know your thoughts and I will get back to you with new prices
and information!

My sincere apologies for this. I have been speaking to Qantas now for two
weeks trying to resolve this but have not had any success.

[Keg]

...the majority of mainline pilots urged these pilots to take a long term view of their profession and withdraw their application.
I don't know everyone that got the slots but I do know that at least one of them could have had a mainline 767 or 737 command within the next 12 months. I bet he's thrilled at slaving his backside off for considerably less than others (a lot of them junior to him) will be making.

Condition Lever, you're ecstatic to be employed by J* and I'm thrilled to be employed by QF. I protect both my company and the wider 'group' against unfair criticism and I'd expect that you would too. What I also do is have wide eyes and be realistic to see that not everything reported by either my company is accurate. A lot is 'spin' and a lot is grand standing. In recent days I've spotted about three 'shots across the bow' of AIPA with respect to EBA negotiations. I've also watched our CEO try and do the same thing to Boeing WRT the 787-10. Personally I don't think Boeing will listen and that Geoff just looks like doing his 'usual' thing. However it's important to look through the information (like we look through the flight director at times) to see the reality of what's going on. Most of your comments indicate that you're not a dill, let go of the prejudice and ensure that you at least acknowledge that not all that is 'spun' about J* is fair dinkum.

[I'm Driving]

Condition Lever.
That reminds me of when Jetstar came out with fanfare about how in just a few short months (after they started), they had gotten 7% of the market. Well done. How much did impulse have?
How much capacity have Jetstar increased in the last 6 months?
It's ok. It will pass.

[mrpaxing]

how does J* measure market share. eg.currently J* codeshares on the QF 743 on the on the SYD/MEL -PER city flyer returns. QF staff can access only QF bookings but are locked out of the J* bookings. now everyone on the city flyer gets a meal and free beer/wine. and so does the "el chepo" traveller booked on J*. now, can any qf manager explain the logic behind that. a no frills ticket and then get the same treatment as Qf pax. talk about subsidising and helping the "little airline". would be interesting to see what percentage they claim as market share and how much qf gets paid from J*. as usual a big coverup and co*kup.:=

[QFinsider]

CL you are clearly clouded. Take a rest. There was no inference from any post about the staff or anyone in particular. The post refers to the flawed model.

I am glad I work where I do, I know we have problems in mainline, there are service failures, the problem is that the market does not readily accept J*.
Whilst it may work on shorter flights, it is suffering longer haul.
The non disclosure and one track strategy to undermine the mainline product, and more specfically the desire to undermine the mainline terms and conditions is not sustainable. The J* product is tacky. Cabin staff have little to work with. AND the travelling public at least in this market don't like it!

Take a chip off your shoulder and have a look at the post. It refers to the product and the strategy not the people.

Ay least the provisions relating to the Sorbane-Oxley Act style transparency will allow those with a financial eye to look more closely at just how well J* does and more importantly what it actually pays for the infrastructure borrowed from its parent! :E

[Hombrey]

Just wondering what it's really like to work for Jetstar?

[Wingspar]

Yep....33% increase is just a reflection of capacity!

The whinging about the Japanese market from JQ management is just the start.

I love how they blame the aussie for it not working. The Japanese have no problem spending the money if they like the product.......:confused::confused::confused:

[The Kavorka]

Hombrey,

working for jq is not as bad as some posters make out...(namely our full service brothers)

in my base I'm working around 15-17 days a month and doing plenty of o/t.

[roamingwolf]

working for jq is not as bad as some posters make out...(namely our full service brothers)

yeah mate just wait until emperor ming the terrible works out that onestar needs to cut costs to battle it out with the rebels with tiger.then when you are halfstar you can tell us how great it is.

when he's looking for things to cut not only will ming want you to pay for your endoresement he'll also want you to pay for the simulator too.

[Going Boeing]

working for jq is not as bad as some posters make out...(namely our full service brothers)

Most of the posts on this thread are commenting on the reasons for Jetstar's existance - not aimed at the employees.

Comments about working conditions generally refer to the international operation because of the failure by JPG to get enough protections built in for long haul flying, despite warnings from many experienced aviators.

The domestic operation appears to be not much different to mainline SH, just a few less overnights.

[Keg]

The domestic operation appears to be not much different to mainline SH, just a few less overnights.

....and a ****e load less money! :E :( :{