Are Master Aircrew Warrant Officers?

[Chief_Two]

Forgive my ignorance, but can someone tell me whether the Master Aircrew rank in the RAF is a WO rank?

[Wiretensioner]

Damm right we are!!!. Sorry forgot - Damm right I was!!!!!!!!:cool:

[Wiley]

Is it the same today? In my day, my CO used to make a point of always having a WO Flt Eng or Loadie on his crew if the trip involved flying into an American base.

Whenever he had any task to complete on the American base, he'd always take his WO Flt Eng along with him - and usually 'meekly' follow one pace behind him.

All the Americans would see was that eagle on the sleeve (that's where they wore their rank back then) and take the WO to be a bird colonel.

All doors would magically open and the service offered could not be faulted.

[Green Hat/Yellow Hat]

Was the same on German bases, the Laurel wreath was very similar to a Luftwaffe senior officer with a couple of pips.

[Chief_Two]

I'm not surprised the Sergeant was confused - Master Aircrew sounds more like a Master Sergeant than a Warrant Officer.

[eyespied]

Yes they receive the Queens Warrant but are listed behind real Warrant Officers in the Air Force List.

[Chief_Two]

Does that mean they are junior to WOs in the same way a Sergeant Major is junior to a Command Sergeant Major in the US Army, even though both are E9s?

[c130jbloke]

Crosseyes,
Err no,
The royal coat of arms they wear, means that they are at the very top of the enlisted tree. Call them Mr, Ma'am,WO,Sir, MACR ( correct method ) or E9 ( works great on the spams) it matters not, they are still top dog. As for the huuuge badge of rank on the No1's - well you just have to make sure that they know who you are....
As for the men / women themselves, I have worked with / for some great people and some utter tw@ts. But they are the real deal and as for their position in the RAFL, who gives a to§§ !
Enjoy !
And so to bed wondering how long before the "they are not real WOs + plastic sergeants" debate kicks off...

[Dave Angel]

eyespied - Yes they receive the Queens Warrant but are listed behind real Warrant Officers in the Air Force List.

Chief_Two - Does that mean they are junior to WOs in the same way a Sergeant Major is junior to a Command Sergeant Major in the US Army, even though both are E9s?

Master Aircrew, Warrant Officer and WO1 are all of equal rank/seniority.
Warrant Officer is listed above Master Aircrew on the Air Force List as it is the most common senior non commissioned rank across the service.

[ZH875]

Forgive my ignorance, but can someone tell me whether the Master Aircrew rank in the RAF is a WO rank?

I sense Deja Vu here.....http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=232962


Yes they are Warrant Officers.


NO we do NOT salute them.


Right Plastic Chief_Two, what is your real question.:ugh:

[Airbus38]

The post history suggests a preoccupation with WOs??

[ZH875]

The post history suggests a preoccupation with WOs??
And the Master Aircrew rank is WO.

You know these septics, it takes a while for things to sink in.

[Arthur's Wizard]

Absolutely, equivalent to WO1

Not strictly true. The RAF often claim that their WO are equal to WO1 and senior to WO2 but Queens Regs makes no comparison between WO1/WO2 in the Army and WO in the RAF. In other words a RAF WO is neither senior nor junior to WO1 or WO2 apart from the fact that the Army would be viewed as the senior service of the two.

[Archimedes]

Airbus, I fear that the pre-occupation is with being saluted.

It's worth recalling that he started up over on Arrse as a fresh [US] WO1, demanding to know why it was that British soldiers wouldn't respect his commission and salute him (and other US Warrant Officers) , in effect inisiting that they should. As you might expect, this approach made a major contribution to Anglo-American relations. He changed his log in upon promotion to CW2 and occasional offerings on the subject of Warrant Officers ensure that much the same sort of fun ensues...

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Hi crosseyed

"Yes they receive the Queens Warrant but are listed behind real Warrant Officers in the Air Force List."

We may well be behind what you sarcastically refer to as "real" Warrant Officers in the Air Force List but as regards pay scales we are light years ahead...............Air Force List or pay chit I know what's more important to me :p

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

CB,

"But light years behind the Army Warrant Officers pay chits!!!!"

If you are referring to British Army WO's you really need to do a bit of research chap cos you are 10k out :rolleyes:

[samuraimatt]

he doesn't get flying pay, he is PAS.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

CB,

I wpuld pm you with my postal address but as i dont get flying pay it would be a bit cheeky howevr use the use the link below for your research, then order your portion of humble pie :p

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/Issues/Pensions/OfferToTransfer/OfferToTransfer.htm

[Unmissable]

MACR used to get promoted on time, hence the derisory comments. Some years ago this stopped, and there are still a few left in who got promoted on time, but not many.

During the transition, those on the old scheme got paid (as though they were promoted) but did/do not wear the rank. There are still a few of these about as well.

Now, all new MACR are promoted and paid on merit. Their rank is the absolutley the highest available in the non-commissioned ranks (the MACR rather than WO is a trade difference and not competence) .........and earned.

So the answer is YES, they are the same as ANY WO.



P.S. I am not NCA nor commissioned NCA. I just acknowledge professionalism when I see it.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

CM,

See you PM and raise you :ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Sneaky fecker, they do say WO's are full of cunning and guile and you seem to have been blessed with both but honours even on the dink front, for the time being :ok:

Fly safe chap :ok:

[Chief_Two]

The best solution would be to rename Master Aircrew, Warrant Officer Aircrew.

[Vim_Fuego]

I don't believe that the serving MACR are aware a solution was required...

[The Helpful Stacker]

The best solution would be to rename Master Aircrew, Warrant Officer Aircrew.

Perhaps the US should rename CW-1 as second lefttenant too, just to simplify things, or perhaps Sergeant Aircrew to match their un-commissioned and very new to the game status.:}

[Chief_Two]

From the comments on this thread, it appears that MACR are not regarded as true WOs in some quarters, possibly due in part to their title. My suggestion of renaming MACR as WOACR would at least solve that problem and insure they are regarded as equals to other RAF WOs.

And in the US Army, the correct ranks are WO1 (warranted) and CW2 (commissioned).

[k3k3]

We who were/are in the RAF are in no confusion about the status of MACR and WO's.

The fact that you seem to be confused doesn't bother me in the slightest.

I do wonder though why you think the rest of the world should fall into line with a fairly recently introduced US Army rank structure.

[speeddial]

Chief Two :mad::mad::mad:

If you want to try and be useful go and look at the Nimrod thread.

[Chief_Two]

The US Warrant Officer ranks are based on the old Royal Navy WO rank which goes back to the 18th century and continued until 1949. So they actually predate the WO ranks in the British Army and RAF.

So when was the MACR rank introduced?

And is there a link to the RAF Air Force List on the web?

[Roland Pulfrew]

Chief Two

From the comments on this thread, it appears that MACR are not regarded as true WOs in some quarters, possibly due in part to their title. My suggestion of renaming MACR as WOACR would at least solve that problem and insure they are regarded as equals to other RAF WOs.

Those of us in the RAF (or perhaps UK Armed Forces) have no problems understanding what the status of a Master is. Perhaps if the US military spent a bit more time on (rank) recognition instead of believing that they are the only ones they need to worry about then this would be much easier. Note British 4 star officers who have taken to wearing US rank because the the US military do not do us the common courtesy of learning to recognise the rank structure of their closest allies.

NATO even produce a very useful wall chart depicting all the equivalent ranks I commend it to you. And if can't be bothered finding that try here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_and_insignia_of_NATO

And the RAF list is not available on the web but you can buy it from Her Majesty's Stationery Office.

THS

If our colonial cousin is confused by RAF ranks (bless) imagine how confused he'd be around the Household Cavarly. Farrier Corporal Major and Regimental Corporal Major anyone?

You forgot Corporal of Horse which IIRC is a Sergeant and Staff Corporal which is, I believe, a Staff Sergeant.

[haltonapp]

I think that the term Master Aircrew was around at the same time as Master Technician, (WO), Chief Technician (Flt Sgt), Senior Technician (Sgt), Corporal Tech and JT (the stripes were upside down and even the JT had one) these technician ranks, which, with the exception of chief Tech and JT, disappeared with the introduction of the new trade structure in 1964. I knew a Chief Tech who had taken his spec qual as a Flight Sgt and was made a Chief Tech and after 1964 finished up at a lower rank than he had started! I am sure there are guys out there older than I who will give you a more definitive answer.

[John Purdey]

Haltonapp is right. The rank was introduced at the same time as P1, P2, P3, J/T, Chief Tech and so on. It was all highly unpopular, and today the Master Aircrew rank is the only remnant.

[teeteringhead]

Historian nerd mode ON there are several strands to be brought together here:

Warrant Officers When the RAF was first formed it had many more non-commisioned ranks than now. In decscending order they were: Warrant Officer Class I, Sergeant-Major 1st Class, Warrant Officer Class II, Sergeant-Major 2nd Class, Flight Sergeant, Sergeant, Corporal, Aircraftman (in three classes - Leading, 1st Class and 2nd Class). In April 1933 the Sergeant-Major ranks were abolished, and sometime in WWII the WO 2 was declared obsolescent.

Master Aircrew The "Master" name and insignia are the only remnant of a failed post-war experiment with NCA ranks. It was intended to separate NCA into their own messes (!!) and with their own rank structure. The basic badge (bear with the description, I shall try and find pictures) was similar to the Masters' badge, but with no coat-of-arms, and the "budgie" at the top of the badge. There were five grades: Master Aircrew (= WO), Aircrew I (= FS), Aircrew II (= Sgt), Aircrew III (= Cpl) Aircrew IV (= airman) and Aircrew Cadet (= u/t). The Aircrew Cadet had an "empty" laurel wreath, and Aircrew IV, III and II had one, two and three six-pointed stars respectively within the laurel wreath. The Aircrew I added a crown above the bird. It was introduced in July 1946 and lasted only until August 1950.

Technician Ranks The first "New Trade Structure" was brought in after WWII and added Chief Technician, Senior Technician, Cpl Technician and Jnr Technician, using the "upside-down" chevrons to which haltonapp correctly refers, with the JT being an upside-down Lance Corporal. SAC rank was introduced at the same time. The rank badges and the Senior Tech and Cpl Tech ranks did indeed disappear in 1964.

Historian nerd mode OFF

[Archimedes]

The Aircrew badges you're looking for are (I think) here (http://www.rafweb.org/Ranks6C.htm), TH.

[Pontius Navigator]

Braddock was a MASTER Pilot. Now that was a rank to conjure with. Braddock used to get extra height out of his Lanc by dropping the flaps when at max altitude and 'jumping' up a few more feet.

'I flew with Braddock' was complusory reading on 201. Is the book still knocking about the crew room?

[teeteringhead]

Many thanks Archimedes - exactly the ones I meant. :ok:

There's also good stuff on that site on the technician badges....

[mystic_meg]

.......non-circumsized, or just a select few, including Chief Two?
(it would appear that some are 'complete kn*bs'):mad:

[Chief_Two]

Yes, but have the British Armed Forces learned the rank structure of their US allies and in particular, the Warrant Officer ranks??

[samuraimatt]

Yes and we know that they are all inferior and don't get saluted under any circumstances.

[Chief_Two]

I'm not getting into a flame war over saluting.

However, I'm surprised that enlisted MACRs and WOs are included in the Air Force List for Officers. :ooh:

[samuraimatt]

Well maybe you should write to the people who write and publish it and tell them to remove the WO's and MACr.

[Green Hat/Yellow Hat]

Hey, Chief,

I'm sure my Royal Warrant says I'm appointed as a Warrant Officer in the RAF by the Queen, and signed by the Sec State of Defence.

What does yours say?

[samuraimatt]

What does yours sayFree with every box of Cheerios.;)

[MightyHunter AGE]

Maybe there should be a realignment of the wikipedia rank system for all ranks in the RAF v USAF. According to Wik LAC, SAC and JT only have one strile eqivalent. Me thinks your average JT has a lot more technical ability than most of the USAF with all 6 stripes in the down position....................

[Chief_Two]

Commissioned as a Chief Warrant Officer 2 in the US Army and signed by the President of the United States.

[Green Hat/Yellow Hat]

And aren't we supposed to help, guide, educate and advise Junior Officers (like 2nd Lts etc!!) in the course of their duties.

As for saluting, it's the Queen I salute, not whoever is wearing Her badge!

[diginagain]

Chief, you really ought to stop.

You know Mom's gonna be mad when she finds out you've been on the computer again.

[bwfg3]

I would join in this thread in some constructive way.. but I live at the RAF College and as we are infested with pilot officers......... I spotted 3 young ladies in blues at a distance today.. Saluted in good style,and pissed myself when I realised they were all LAC's with big hats on, (and air commodore rank slides if you're blind.. )so Chief two.. I salute E2. And Im an E8! BEAT THAT.:8

[OHP 15M]

During the presentation of my Royal Warrant (as Master Aircrew) the presiding Air Vice Marshall openly, and quite rightly, admitted that the RAF "was actually run by Warrant Officers". When you consider that Non-Commissioned Aircrew are directly recruited as Aircrew as opposed to General Duties officer aircrew, it is logical to conclude that Master Aircrew is the top rank in the RAF and equivalent to that of Chief of Air Staff :ok:

[ZH875]

Commissioned as a Chief Warrant Officer 2 in the US Army and signed by the President of the United States.


Maybe if it had been signed by Mickey Mouse, you would be eligible for a 5 star McDonalds badge, rather than your 4 star one.

[Chief_Two]

OHP 15M wrote: During the presentation of my Royal Warrant (as Master Aircrew) the presiding Air Vice Marshall openly, and quite rightly, admitted that the RAF "was actually run by Warrant Officers".

I can't disagree with that! Congratulations anyway on your promotion to Warrant Officer. I clearly remember the day when I was appointed as a WO1! :D

[Green Hat/Yellow Hat]

I can't disagree with that! Congratulations anyway on your promotion to Warrant Officer. I clearly remember the day when I was appointed as a WO1! :D

I take it that was before your commissioning brainwashing session!

Chief, Do you actually have a point to make, or am I missing something?

[It's Not Working]

When you commission something to set it to work but when you warrant something you guarantee it'll work!

[c130jbloke]

Maybe if it had been signed by Mickey Mouse, you would be eligible for a 5 star McDonalds badge, rather than your 4 star one.
WRONG !!!!!!!
You need Ronald McDonald to sign off on that one. Spent 18 fun packed months with that company and got as far as a name badge. :*
C130JB
PS: Would that make me a good CW2 / WO1+2 / ACC + ACB prospect ?

[ZH875]

c130jbloke, that would qualify you the to be President of the USA.:)

[bwfg3]

Historical (boring) note:

In the years following WW2, the aircrew brotherhood was messed about with, possibly to save cash? Instead of the traditional ranks.. a newly qualified aircrew chap was promoted from aircrew cadet to aircrew 3. nice badge with aircrew eagle and 1 star on it? promotion led to aircrew 2 and 1. more stars and more money. These equated to SNCO ranks in the airforce but confusion was obvious.( Like the US Warrant scheme maybe). Eventually you were promoted above aircrew 1 and became Master Air Engineer/ AEOP/ Pilot/Nav/etc.. So Master aircrew IS a warrant officer 1 and the rank is a part of our distinguished history, albeit modernish... bit like a major being senior to a leiutenant but a Lt General being senior to a Maj General in the army.. they dropped the Sgt in Sgt Maj General before the US was a colony...:cool:

exam on Friday.. no notes

[c130jbloke]

c130jbloke, that would qualify you the to be President of the USA.
Wey Hey !!!
Once in, pack your bags fellas as your are all going home....
:}:}:}

[toddbabe]

Of course Warrant Officers haven't jumped any ranks on their rise to the top! starting at Sgt is a massive adavantage Nca trades.
Take one recently promoted ground trade warrant and a recently promoted Master and the guy with the most experience of RAF Life is far more likely to be the warrant.
Not that you will find too many Masters bothered as they are spending their cash earlier!!

[TheMightyHunter]

The Kiwi Airforce (Defence force!) is about to convert all of its MACR to WO officially at the end of June.
They have a ceremony based around a Dining in night where all of the MACR will be presented with WO rank. It all seems a bit demeaning to me, if they HAVE to change their title and rank badges then I would much prefer to just do it at home and arrive at work the next day with the new rank sewn on to my uniform.
I have asked around and some of the Masters (usually the more recently promoted) are OK with it but most (the older chaps and especially anyone who has transferred from the RAF) are horrified. I guess it is a tradition and history issue that some people just do not care about.
They tell me that the primary reason for the change is so that they do not have any "rank issues" when visiting US bases, but when I asked them to elaborate with specific instances that there had been "rank issues" nobody could recall any examples!
As a person who one day aspires to become a MACR I am very surprised that they are changing things so radically.
Oh well, I just hope the UK does not get any funny ideas.

Long live MACR.

[Papa Whisky Alpha]

Sorry, I think you have made a mistake. wreath was cadet pilot, etc. Wreath plus one star - pilot 4, Wreath plus 2 stars - pilot 3, Wreath plus 3 stars - pilot 2, Wreath plus 3 stars plus crown - pilot 1, wreath plus all the trimmings - Master pilot. The same applied to other a/c categories.

[Chief_Two]

The Kiwi Airforce (Defence force!) is about to convert all of its MACR to WO officially at the end of June. They tell me that the primary reason for the change is so that they do not have any "rank issues" when visiting US bases, but when I asked them to elaborate with specific instances that there had been "rank issues" nobody could recall any examples!

The US armed forces would assume a MACR is a Senior NCO and a WO is an Officer.

[roush]

Well you know what assume does.

A MACr/WO is not a SNCO.

[Chief_Two]

A MACr/WO is not a SNCO.

Using American definitions it is. The point is that the New Zealanders are trying to align their rank structure with the US Armed Forces, but by using the 'WO' designation instead of 'MACR', they are more likely to confuse us.

[roush]

Agreed. Which is why using UK definitions we don't salute US WO's.

I've been lucky enough to have been holding an RAF post within the USAF for the past three years and have never had a single issue. The enlisted (E9 included) address me as Sir and the commissioned ranks address me as Mr.

Best rank in the Air Force.

[Chief_Two]

Why would a US E9 address you as 'Sir' if you are an E9 yourself?

[roush]

Because I am not an E9. The E system is a US system.

[Chief_Two]

But you are an OR9 like a US Chief Master Sergeant which is the corresponding rank in the USAF. Do you have officer status in your current role?

[roush]

Not if I can help it, wouldn't like the reduction in responsibility

[Chief_Two]

I expect the US Air Force don't understand your status as an RAF WO, as I can't imagine why a Command Chief Master Sergeant would address you as 'Sir'.

But good luck with your exchange position anyway.

[Winco]

IMHO Master Aircrew are not WO, they are far far higher ranked than that, and a great many officers also frankly, even some senior ones!

I would always feel safer and happier knowing that I had at least one Master on my crew, if only to keep some of my junior officers in check at places and in flight!

Long live ther MACR, they have my ultimate respect.

The Winco

[Green Hat/Yellow Hat]

Come on, Chief, come out into the open and just state what your motives here are.

Do you have an agenda?

It appears that you feel that all ranks from the rest of the World should marry up to the US standard? Is this correct? If so, why?

Another case of "Let the whole world fly the Stars n Stripes" :sad:

[Climebear]

Arthur's Wizard
Not strictly true. The RAF often claim that their WO are equal to WO1 and senior to WO2 but Queens Regs makes no comparison between WO1/WO2 in the Army and WO in the RAF. In other words a RAF WO is neither senior nor junior to WO1 or WO2 apart from the fact that the Army would be viewed as the senior service of the two.

Not true. QRs for the RAF (QRJ126) show RAF WO and MACR as equivelant to Army WO1 - both with a NATO rank code of OR9. Whereas, the Army (and RM) rank of WO2 is junior with a NATO rank code of OR8 (but senior to the RAF rank of flt sgt which - alongside chf tech - has a NATO rank code of OR7).

[BluntedAtBirth]

Green Hat/Yello Hat wrote:


And aren't we supposed to help, guide, educate and advise Junior Officers (like 2nd Lts etc!!) in the course of their duties.


First WO I ever worked with was particularly keen on that, but his definition of JO was 'officers up to and including the rank of wing commander' :ok:

[teeteringhead]

I did hear the tale of a Group Captain Staish who was being dined into his Sergeants' Mess on his arrival in post. ;)

In a loud "stage whisper" as they sat down to dine, the Warrant Officer CMC said to him:Just remember Sir, you've had 3 merit promotions and I've had 4!!

[seafuryfan]

What is the correct abbreviation for Master Aircrew?

MACR?

MACr?

MAcr?

It's the last one - and that's from PMA.

My point is, keep the MAcr rank, but please, let's get the abbreviation changed. Even on a base where there are more than a few, the rank abbreviation is unknown to many serving airmen. It causes head scratching and the well trodden pre-recorded explanation. It gets a bit irksome after x years, so....can we change the abbreviation to WO(A)?

Would those 'in charge' care to comment?

[Yashin]

"......& some senior ones too! MAEOps Ted Rose & Fred Reeves, 42 Sqn, late 1970's - IIRC, ditched several times between them in their early flying careers! Took a brave sqn ldr to ignore their suggestions! :ok:"


I was the recipient of a well aimed set of FRCs on more than one occasion! Now that was a good way to teach students!

I also remember the Stn Cdr at Finningley having annual Xmas drinks for his WOs and not one MAcr was invited. :=

[parabellum]

The p1ss ups in the WO's and Sgt's Mess were always better!:E

[Chief_Two]

Come on, Chief, come out into the open and just state what your motives here are.

Do you have an agenda?

It appears that you feel that all ranks from the rest of the World should marry up to the US standard? Is this correct? If so, why?


I have no specific agenda. However, due to possible misunderstandings, I think that WO ranks in other NATO armies should be more closely aligned with those in the US Armed Forces.

[Wader2]

I remember a US Army CWO transitting through ISL. He was in the Officers' Mess bar having a bar snack lunch. He was not actually thrown out but he was asked why he was not in the Sergeant's Mess.

Another cause for confusion - warrant officers, not themselves SNCOs, use the Sergeants' Mess. When on a US base, and thus entitled to use the O=club they often chose to remain with the SNCOs.

[cornish-stormrider]

Chief Two, Why on earth should the rest of Nato pander to your desire??

A WO by definition is the highest enlisted rank, they have the experience, the knowledge and the power to be on a par with God. To make them go and spend time with fresh nugget aircrew that barely know how to shave is a huge insult. A WO is most at home with the NCO's and enlisted.

My last WO was a man I hugely respected, feared and admired. If you screwed up you made sure he knew about it. He would forgive and sort out any problem other than a lack of integrity. I wish the RAF had a hundred more like him.

[TMJ]

Chief Two, Why on earth should the rest of Nato pander to your desire??

A WO by definition is the highest enlisted rank, they have the experience, the knowledge and the power to be on a par with God. To make them go and spend time with fresh nugget aircrew that barely know how to shave is a huge insult. A WO is most at home with the NCO's and enlisted.

My last WO was a man I hugely respected, feared and admired. If you screwed up you made sure he knew about it. He would forgive and sort out any problem other than a lack of integrity. I wish the RAF had a hundred more like him.

Air Rank (MRAF, ACM, AM, AVM, AC) Leaps tall buildings with a single bound; Is more powerful than a locomotive; Is faster than a speeding bullet; Walks on water; Gives policy to God
Group Captain Leaps short buildings with a single bound; Is more powerful than a tank engine; Is just as fast as a speeding bullet; Walks on water if sea is calm; Talks with God
Wing Commander Leaps short buildings with a running start; Is almost as powerful as a tank engine; Is able to avoid speeding bullets; Walks on water in indoor swimming pools; Talks with God if special request is approved
Squadron Leader Can just clear a small hut; Loses a tug-of-war with an engine; Can fire a speeding bullet; Swims well Is occasionally addressed by God
Flight Lieutenant Makes high marks when leaping small huts; Is run over by locomotives; Can handle a gun; Dog paddles; Talks to animals
Flying Officer Runs into buildings; Recognises locomotives two times out of three; Is not issued with live ammunition; Can stay afloat if issued with a Mae West; Talks to walls
Pilot Officer Falls over doorsteps; Says, "I see no trains"; Wets herself/himself with a water pistol; Stays on dry land; Mumbles to herself/himself
Warrant Officer Lifts tall buildings and walks under them; Kicks locomotives off their tracks; Catches speeding bullets in his teeth; Freezes water with a glance; Because – HE IS A GOD

[RODF3]

Another cause for confusion - warrant officers, not themselves SNCOs, use the Sergeants' Mess. When on a US base, and thus entitled to use the O=club they often chose to remain with the SNCOs.
I believe that the correct title for the mess is the Warrant Officers' and Sergeants' Mess.

[Chief_Two]

Roush: I've been lucky enough to have been holding an RAF post within the USAF for the past three years and have never had a single issue. The enlisted (E9 included) address me as Sir and the commissioned ranks address me as Mr. Best rank in the Air Force.

I'm just surprised that the British Armed Forces do not fully recognize the status of US Warrant Officers when a USAF E9 is expected to address a British Warrant Officer of the same status as 'Sir'.

[samuraimatt]

Oh dear chief feeling a little inferior?:sad:
I bet you drive a big fast car to make up for it though.:rolleyes:

[diginagain]

I'm just surprised that the British Armed Forces do not fully recognize the status of US Warrant Officers......

You shouldn't be, after all, you've had it explained ad nauseam both here and on ARRSE over the last God knows how many months that we do recognise your status.

I'm sure you'll ask again, since your posting history would suggest that you seem to be heading this way; as you don't hold The Queen's commission, you don't get saluted by Brits.

[ZH875]

I had a friend in the US Army, he almost made CW2, but McDonalds stopped issuing the tokens when he was 3 short.

"Never mind I said", I am sure they will repeat the promotion next year.


Chief_Two - Here is the only salute you warrant from the Brits:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/ZH875/onefinger.jpg

Now please go forth and multiply.

[Chief_Two]

ZH875

Let's avoid personal abuse. However I would still like an answer to my question.

Roush: I've been lucky enough to have been holding an RAF post within the USAF for the past three years and have never had a single issue. The enlisted (E9 included) address me as Sir and the commissioned ranks address me as Mr. Best rank in the Air Force. Chief_Two: ....a USAF E9 is expected to address a British Warrant Officer of the same status as 'Sir'.

Why??

[ZH875]

ZH875

Let's avoid personal abuse.

How about "Let's avoid the same old question from the same Chief"?

BTW that wasn't abuse.....

[Bigwings]

Coalition forces are fighting and losing their lives on a daily basis in wars that most of them didn't want to even be a part of and all you seem to care about is who should salute who(m).

Go away and get a life you sad bloody individual.

:ugh:

[Chief_Two]

Coalition forces are fighting and losing their lives on a daily basis in wars that most of them didn't want to even be a part of

I'm very aware :(

[Dave Angel]

I'm very aware

Of the fact you are not endearing yourself to the rest of the military world I hope.

[samuraimatt]

chief if you write to Air Chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy KCB CBE DSO BSc(Eng) FRAeS RAF, I am sure he will give you the time of day to answer your very important question. It's not like he has other stuff to sort out and I am sure he will be so glad you have brought this world shattering non saluting problem to his attention.

If you don't want to do that then maybe you could just sod off.:ok:

Oh BTW have you tried asking on Rum Ration. The Royal Marines have Warrant Officers.

Here is the link http://www.rumration.co.uk/cpgn2/index.php?prevtheme=royal_marine enjoy

Whoops nearly forgot. You could also try asking on e-goat. That's the unofficial RAF website. There are more currently serving people on that site.

http://www.e-goat.co.uk/forums/cmps_index.php enjoy again

[EODFelix]

Just to complicate matters!!!!

The warrant officer corps began in the 13th century in the nascent English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England) Royal Navy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy). At that time, noblemen with military experience took command of the new Navy, adopting the military ranks of lieutenant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant) and captain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain). These officers often had no knowledge of life on board a ship — let alone how to navigate such a vessel — and relied on the expertise of the ship's Master (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_Mariner) and other seamen who tended to the technical aspects of running the ship. As cannon came into use, the officers also required gunnery experts.

These sailors became indispensable to the running of the ship and were rewarded with a royal warrant. The warrant was a special designation, designed to set them apart from other sailors, yet not violate the class system that was prevalent during the time.

Nevertheless, while the class distinctions embodied by the distinction between commission and warrant were important at Court and in society both at home and abroad, on board ship a person's status has always depended more on the practical importance of the job that he did rather than the formalities of commission or warrant. Admiralty commissions were therefore never accorded the unique status that the Queen's commission (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commissioning_scroll) holds in the Army, and in the hierarchy of a Royal Navy ship important warrant officers such as the Master would outrank commissioned officers such as the marine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Marines) Lieutenants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant).

[Fish Eagle]

Dare I add this...

A WO in the SA Air Force (which has its military etiquette & traditions based on the RAF) does not get saluted, so if you're a RAF Master Aircrew or WO planning a visit to South Africa please don't expect to get saluted...;)

[J.A.F.O.]

I have no specific agenda. However, due to possible misunderstandings, I think that WO ranks in other NATO armies should be more closely aligned with those in the US Armed Forces.

I think that is a specific agenda.

Why, when NATO has 26 member states, should we all pander to the whims of one?

Now, shall we clear this one up - You don't hold the Queen's Commission, I wouldn't salute your rank, live with it, there are more important things in life.

ENDEX

[Fish Eagle]

Well said sire....:ok:

[oxoneil]

Anyone that thinks that an Army WO compares in any way with an RAF WO is seriously deluded. Most of the ones I had any dealings with were probably at Chief/FS level at best.

[EODFelix]

I take it that CW2 is US Army as USAF does not have use the warrant officers rank:

The USAF inherited warrant officer ranks from the Army at its inception in 1947 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947), but their place in the Air Force structure was never made clear. The US Air Force stopped appointing warrant officers in 1959 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1959), the same year the first promotions were made to the new top enlisted grade, Chief Master Sergeant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Master_Sergeant). Most of the existing US Air Force warrant officers entered the commissioned officer ranks during the 1960s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960s), but tiny numbers continued to exist for the next 21 years.

The last active duty Air Force warrant officer, CWO-4 James H. Long, retired in 1980 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980) and the last Air Force Reserve warrant officer, CWO-4 Bob Barrow, retired in 1992 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992). Since then, the Air Force warrant officer ranks, while still authorized by law, are not used.

[parabellum]

What a sheltered life you have led oxoneil!

[It's Not Working]

Anyone that thinks that an Army WO compares in any way with an RAF WO is seriously deluded. Most of the ones I had any dealings with were probably at Chief/FS level at best.
Oxoneil, While I can't get too wound-up with the Chief's ramblings I have to take the bait with your last one-liner. Well into my 4th decade as a light blue it is my delight to work with a couple of Royal Signals WOs at least 15 years my junior. You couldn't ask for better, more professional, individuals. The other Army WOs (1 & 2) I come across during my normal duties are all from the same mould. Their promotion system encourages excellence; WO1 then commission or out at aged 40.

[South Bound]

Yep, kinda agree with that one. Worked very closely with some WO2s (all around 30 years old) recently and was gobsmacked at how bright, hardworking and switched on they were. Put my inappropriate preconceptions in their place. Clearly only a narrow group I worked with, but closer to RAF junior officers than RAF WOs in my view.

RAF WOs have the benefit of much more experience and are generally a different beast - I would not seek to compare the 2!

[BluntedAtBirth]

ZH875

Let's avoid personal abuse. However I would still like an answer to my question.

Quote:
Roush: I've been lucky enough to have been holding an RAF post within the USAF for the past three years and have never had a single issue. The enlisted (E9 included) address me as Sir and the commissioned ranks address me as Mr. Best rank in the Air Force. Chief_Two: ....a USAF E9 is expected to address a British Warrant Officer of the same status as 'Sir'.
Why??

Why? Bl**by obvious why, Chief_Two. Like so many of your countrymen and woman they are being faultlessly polite and welcoming to a visitor. They probably don't care a jot whether Roush is an E9 or where his equivalence is in the NATO tables, and probably don't think that the rules of cricket should be changed to baseball so its easier for them to understand. They probably respect Roush as an experienced professional and if they call him 'sir' that only reflects on their professionalism and respect for 'our' customs and traditions. You might like to have a chat with them, you might pick up a few points.

[Contacttower]

They probably respect Roush as an experienced professional and if they call him 'sir' that only reflects on their professionalism and respect for 'our' customs and traditions. You might like to have a chat with them, you might pick up a few points.
I think many on this thread could take some similar advice.

[Green Hat/Yellow Hat]

I have no specific agenda. However, due to possible misunderstandings, I think that WO ranks in other NATO armies should be more closely aligned with those in the US Armed Forces.

I hate to sound parochial, but this is so arrogant, and personally smacks of insecurity.

Maybe the US Forces should align themselves with the rest of the world!!

[Contacttower]

To be fair Chief 2 according to the Wikipedia article cited earlier it is only Greece, Poland and Romania that use the Warrant Officer system in the same way that the US does so if anyone needs to re-align it is you.

Your original question was fair enough, but it never ceases to amaze me how much consternation this subject causes.

Lets not let this damage Anglo-American relations and lets all start showing some solidarity over things that actually matter.

[samuraimatt]

Your original question was fair enough

His original question was not fair enough. He has asked on ARRSE, on PPRUNE three times and he just needs to go away.

[GreenWings]

Whilst this seems to be another blatant troll, I have learned plenty of military history on this thread, so cheers for the historical quips etc :ok:

There was a US Navy CWO-4 (CW-4 US Army) in the mess of an Oxonian helicopter base this lunchtime. I don't suppose for one minute that half of the occupants in the mess knew what strange rank badge he was wearing, nor did they probably care. Just food for thought whilst I was thinking of my food.

[Chief_Two]

To be fair Chief 2 according to the Wikipedia article cited earlier it is only Greece, Poland and Romania that use the Warrant Officer system in the same way that the US does so if anyone needs to re-align it is you.


I've studied the Wikipedia article and it has some inaccuracies. I don't know about Romania, but Greece's and Poland's WOs are NATO OR9s.

Your original question was fair enough, but it never ceases to amaze me how much consternation this subject causes.

It causes much confusion and Brit WOs are very conscious of their status.

On another subject, why doesn't the RAF have WO2s?

[R 21]

Army WO1 level 7 high band - £43 077
RAF MACR level 7 high band - £43 077 + £6 780 flying pay = £49 857

and lets not talk about PA spine !!!

I know which I would rather be, dont care what people think is or is not a Warrant Officer.....SHOW ME THE MONEY!!

[timex]

I know which I would rather be, dont care what people think is or is not a Warrant Officer.....SHOW ME THE MONEY!!
Unless you're an Army WO1, WO2 or S/Sgt on Flying pay........:ok:


Shaun

[R 21]

apart from teeny weeny airways pilots of course :\

[Wrathmonk]

Chiefy Too

Why did the US Forces not adopt the Royal Navy / Royal Marines / British Army and Royal Air Force rank systems - after all, they are all (I believe) junior to their UK counterpart. :p

So .... why does the US Air Force not have, for example, a Chief Technician rank?

Why does the US Army not have, for example, the rank of Cornet (the ranks held by Prince William and Harry)?

etc etc etc.

Troll off back to your little world. Have you asked the question on www.military.com (http://www.military.com) yet? I'm sure they would boost your ego, call you Sir a few times and maybe throw up a salute or two. Have you had your mid-morning snack yet - must nearly be time for your morning nap.

[Contacttower]

I've studied the Wikipedia article and it has some inaccuracies. I don't know about Romania, but Greece's and Poland's WOs are NATO OR9s.



Whatever you say, to be honest I don't think enough people care to warrant (sorry) a thread on this. You seem to be more qualified to answer your own questions than most other people (so why ask :ugh:). The Wikipedia article answered your original question anyway, so does the RAF website and numerous other threads.


Brit WOs are very conscious of their status.

No more than any other rank really, as long WOs in the RAF are shown the respect and courtesy appropriate to their rank then most are happy. I hope you aren't accusing British Warrant Officers being insecure because of their apparent inferiority compared to US ones because I can assure you they are NOT. :cool:


On another subject, why doesn't the RAF have WO2s?


I am sure that someone will come up with some historical reason but I suspect that most people in the RAF are quite happy with the explanation: because they don't :ok: and are happy to leave it at that!

[Chief_Two]

I hope you aren't accusing British Warrant Officers being insecure because of their apparent inferiority compared to US ones because I can assure you they are NOT

I'm certainly not suggesting British WOs are inferior to US WOs.


Worked very closely with some WO2s (all around 30 years old) recently and was gobsmacked at how bright, hardworking and switched on they were. Put my inappropriate preconceptions in their place. Clearly only a narrow group I worked with, but closer to RAF junior officers than RAF WOs in my view.

I feel an affinity for British Army WO2s as in terms of age and competence they appear to be very similar to US Army CW2s.

[Contacttower]

I don't know whether this is a culture difference or something but you do seem to be attaching a lot more importance to the concept of rank than most in the UK military would.

I again draw your attention to the following, it sums up the issue nicely...


Why? Bl**by obvious why, Chief_Two. Like so many of your countrymen and woman they are being faultlessly polite and welcoming to a visitor. They probably don't care a jot whether Roush is an E9 or where his equivalence is in the NATO tables, and probably don't think that the rules of cricket should be changed to baseball so its easier for them to understand. They probably respect Roush as an experienced professional and if they call him 'sir' that only reflects on their professionalism and respect for 'our' customs and traditions. You might like to have a chat with them, you might pick up a few points.




I feel an affinity for British Army WO2s as in terms of age and competence they appear to be very similar to US Army CW2s.


I know the US and Britain have been long term allies (and I for one am all for that) but your average Warrant Officer in the Army thinks mostly of his rank in terms of the UK's military. You will inevitably come across a variation in the competence of a group of people of the same rank, but after working with someone I don't really judge their competence by their rank, although I may privately judge whether there rank is appropriate to their competence. Recognising rank is about recognising the experience and authority behind that rank (and in the case of officers the Queen) not rank itself.

[Chief_Two]

F/Sgt

A courteous and erudite response. The RAF should promote you to WO (or MACR?:ooh:) immediately! :D:ok:

I note on the WO2 issue that in the Australian Armed Forces, their Army WO2, who is classified as a Warrant Officer, corresponds to a RAAF Flight Sergeant, a Senior NCO. Both are E8s (OR8s). A subtle difference from the British Armed Forces on which the Australians base their ranks.

[samuraimatt]

err that would be some massive promotion, he is an Air Cadet.:ugh:

[Airborne Aircrew]

Chief_two:

I've kinda been quietly "following you around" on this and other boards and am an ex RAF type and someone who has now lived almost 20 years in the USA and have friends in the US military who are generally of the "other rank" persuasion yet are in my age group, (hence tend to be "seniors"). I can say that anyone, (Brit or Yank), who has a preoccupation with the minutia of where their rank puts them in the world, (like you clearly do), is in that rank, and probably in the military, for all the _wrong_ reasons... Do yourself, (Read: your unit), a favour and retire... there's a good chap....

[Contacttower]

err that would be some massive promotion, he is an Air Cadet
How did you guess?:D

I might add though you are not entirely accurate; one might have assumed after having read my question about Breitlings that I was actually a RAF cadet in a school CCF (which I am) and not in the ATC (and hence CAN be promoted straight to [cadet] Warrant Officer).

Either way though when I get into the regulars I'll be on the look out for rampant US Warrant Officers!!!!:)

[Contacttower]

I was implying that it must be obvious that I am a spoilt brat who must obviously go to the sort of school that would have a CCF!!!


At least I admit that I am a wannabe! (hopefully not for long though)

[themightyimp]

=Airborne Aircrew] [/COLOR] I've kinda been quietly "following you around" on this and other boards

Watch out Chief_two you have a stalker........:yuk:

[Airborne Aircrew]

Watch out Chief_two you have a stalker........:yuk:

He'd be so fcuking lucky...

I mean that I've seen several threads of his around a couple of military forums that seem to be all about the same issue...

[Chief_Two]

Do yourself, (Read: your unit), a favour and retire... there's a good chap....

Sorry to disappoint you but I have no intention of retiring. It's a pleasure and an honor to be able to serve my country as a Commissioned Warrant Officer.:)

[Wrathmonk]

In UK we spell honour with a "u".

Why don't the Americans?:E

Oh yes - it's because we are different. Like our Armed Forces rank structures.

[Chief_Two]

We are different, but the prestige of achieving Warrant Rank is the same.

For example, the fact that Australian WO2s are now equivalent to Flight Sergeants and CPOs (Staff Sergeant is being phased out,apparently) has caused some concern amongst Australian WOs - see the following from the Australian Army News:

Poster woe
I WOULD like to express my concern over an issue that has troubled me for a little while. The catalyst for my concern is the relatively innocuous rank identification poster that we often see adorning unit orderly rooms and CSI shopfronts.

My concern has is with a misconception that these posters promote – that equivalence exists between warrant-officer appointments in Army and some non-commissioned ranks in the other services.

These posters used to display the distinct differences between the three services, and soldiers, sailors and airmen used to be able to readily refer to them and clearly identify ranks unique to each of the three services – a valuable tool for those newly posted to a tri-service unit and public servants alike.

Unfortunately since then, with no apparent justification or discussion, these posters were amended to reflect that WO2 (peculiar to Army) is in fact equivalent to that of chief petty officer in Navy and flight sergeant in Air Force. How this could be true, I struggle to see.

When you remove the emotive arguments of job function, remuneration and time in service, you are left only with interpretation. DFDA Section 3 defines a warrant officer as a soldier, sailor or airman holding the rank of warrant officer. The Army Protocol Manual supports this by describing that warrant officers are appointed by warrant and are not non-commissioned officers.

DFDA Section 3 goes on to describe non-commissioned officers as soldiers holding a rank not higher than that of staff sergeant, sailors holding a rank not higher than chief petty officer and airmen holding a rank not higher than flight sergeant.

Clearly, in this interpretation, warrant officers, are not non-commissioned officers. So why are we telling our officers, sailors, soldiers and airmen (indirectly, as may be the case) that WO2, chief petty officer and flight sergeant are equivalent when clearly they are not?

WO2 A**** E****
LWC-NQ
Lavarack Barracks

WO1 J*** H****, RSM Ceremonial – Army, responds:
THE badges of rank and special insignia posters you refer to are promulgated to assist those who cannot readily identify corresponding ranks within the ADF. Those posters are drawn from Defence Force Regulations 1952 - Reg 8, which is legislation, and clearly shows that chief petty officer, WO2 and flight sergeant are corresponding ranks.
Your reference to the Defence Force Discipline Act Section 3 and its definitions is relevant only to the responsibilities of those ranks within the act.

[BluntedAtBirth]

So to recap, as a CW1 are you saluted by enlisted ranks? As a CW2 are you saluted by enlisted ranks? Is a CW5 junior to a OF1? When you go for lunch, which mess do you eat in?

[bwfg3]

Apologies for rehashing an old tale...
US General chatting to the Brits prior to GW1:
" So son, whats that rank your wearing there?"
" Staff Sergeant Sir"
" OK, now if you were US Army youd be a Master Sergeant" (or whatever)
" Sir, if I was in the US Army, I'd be a fookin General"
:E

[Airborne Aircrew]

It's a pleasure and an honor to be able to serve my country as a Commissioned Warrant Officer.

Why do I get the feeling your country no longer shares those sentiments?

Rhetorical old son... rhetorical.

[Gaz ED]

I agree with Chief Two.

I was a JT. In the US Army I'd be a Command Master Sergeant Boatswain Zulu Chief God........

I still wouldn't salute him! :E

[J.A.F.O.]

The difference in the British and American forces has become startlingly clear to me now. In the US forces Chiefy is a commissioned Warrant Officer and in the British forces he'd have been kicked half to death by his mates before he got out of basic training.

Cheify, you wouldn't like to transfer, would you?

FS Bell - If you are disatisfied with your Breitling then send me a PM and I'll arrange a swap for my Sekonda which keeps great time. Worth a try.

[wokkameister]

In the old days as a sergeant, I was asked by a member of the US Navy SEALs why I had an eagle above my rank.
I told him that I was a 'Queens Falconeer' and that Rotary Crewman was my war role. And that back in the UK I lived in Buckingham palace and looked after the Queens birds of prey...Harriers, Falcons, Eagles, and even a rare Sub Saharan Snow Owl.
It was several hours before I could keep a straight face no longer, they were asking for a visit to the palace.

WM

[CPG]

sorry for my reply but how can master aircrew man be equivalent to WO1 in the army when they go from flight sgt to master aircrew man. Pardon my ignorance but isnt Flt Sgt the same as Staff Sgt. So there fore Master Aircrew man is the equivalent to WO2 in the army.

[Pontius Navigator]

CPG and sqn ldrs in the air force and lt cols in the army are selected whereas promotion to flt lt and maj is automatic.

Therefore a flt lt is equivalent to a major and a sqn ldr to a lt col?

The real answer lies in the pay grades.

[CPG]

Flt lt is the same pay grade as Capt in the army I believe the pay is the same not including flying pay. The same as a Lt in the Navy.

[Pontius Navigator]

CPG, I know that, the point I was making was check the WO pay scales. You are querying FS/SS and WO/WO2/WO1/MAcr.

I was also making the point that promotion in officers is different between services which also suggests your comparison is wrong too.

[WIWOWessex]

A MACR holds the Queens Warrant, awarded by the Secretary of State for Defence- therefore is a WARRANT OFFICER!!!!!!


Nuff said!

[CPG]

MACR may hold the queens warrent but still only equal to a WO2 in the army is my point

[contacttower118.2]

MACR may hold the queens warrent but still only equal to a WO2 in the army is my point


The RAF is simply missing a rank compared to the Army and consequently F/Sgt goes straight to Warrant Officer/Master AC and equates to WO1 or OR9 in NATO terms.

[Airborne Aircrew]

This conversation has gone on too long...

Allow me to give you an example of Reality:-

Situation: Back end of any aircraft you want to think of that employs Loadmasters.

Any non-Aircrew rank you want to mention, (An-Arywtm:): I'm going to sit over there.

Sgt Aircrew: No Sir, you will remain in your seat please.

An-Arywtm: Out of my way Sgt.

Sgt Aircrew: Sir, remain in your seat or I will have you removed from the aircraft.

An-Arywtm: You can't.

Sgt. Aircrew: Captain, I need [whoever] sat in seat X. He insists on moving to seat Y and refuses on staying in his seat. Would you like me to remove him.

Captain: Put him on intercom please

An-Arywtm goes on intercom...

An-Arywtm goes to the seat assigned by the Loadmaster Sergeant!!!!

Who cares who salutes a MACR or is "superior" to them... On their aircraft, which is, after all, their domain, your rank is irrelevant. The MACR is the direct representative of the aircraft Captain and therefore outranks all other non-aircrew. The same applies to a Sgt. Aircrew...

So, the upshot of this silly thread started by a silly man is that SNCO Aircrew don't give a rats behind who salutes who and who is "superior" to who because where they work they have only one boss... The captain!!!!

Close the thread...:eek:

[samuraimatt]

Flt lt is the same pay grade as Capt in the army I believe the pay is the same not including flying pay. The same as a Lt in the Navy.

Master Aircrew on PAS scale 20 is between level 9 Cmdr, Major, Sqn Ldr and Level 1 Lt Cmdr, Lt Col, Wg Cdr. You reckon they are equivalent to WO2?:ugh:

[EODFelix]

Upon formation of the RAF inb 1918 the WO2 rank was adopted from the Army/RFC. It reamined an RAF rank until 1939 when the WO1 and WO2 ranks were combined as WO. And on the status of RAF WO vs Army/RN W01/WO2 I quote from an MoD Defence Select Committee Memorandum:

"Again as now, a warrant officer will only be qualified for membership of the Court Martial if the accused is below the rank that the warrant officer holds. For example, in the Army, a warrant officer first class (WO1) will be qualified to be a member of the Court Martial for the trial of a warrant officer second class (WO2). There is only one class of warrant officer in the RAF, but as they are considered equivalent to an Army WO1, an RAF warrant officer would also be qualified to be a member for the trial of an Army or RN WO2." (my bold)

[AC Ovee]

Who cares who salutes a MACR or is "superior" to them... On their aircraft, which is, after all, their domain, your rank is irrelevant. The MACR is the direct representative of the aircraft Captain and therefore outranks all other non-aircrew. The same applies to a Sgt. Aircrew...

So, the upshot of this silly thread started by a silly man is that SNCO Aircrew don't give a rats behind who salutes who and who is "superior" to who because where they work they have only one boss... The captain!!!!

Close the thread...:eek:

AA, you do the NCA cadre a dis-service by espousing that opinion on our behalf. How many hours per day, on average, weekends included do you spend flying? How many more hours are you not flying? You must have a very narrow view of the RAF if you believe that we do not exist and work alongside others away from the flying environment. Our "domain" is the RAF and rank and respect, for better or worse, is the structure we work with.

[Two's in]

AA makes a good point saying that MACR status is similar to, oh let's say the Cabin Supervisor role on Easyjet then, and it's really all about making sure the SLF sit in the correct seat (because there's no duty free to sell)? Makes more sense now, although you never see Flight Attendants salute the Captain these days, which may be indicative of standards in society slipping in general.

[Chief_Two]

So to recap, as a CW1 are you saluted by enlisted ranks? As a CW2 are you saluted by enlisted ranks? Is a CW5 junior to a OF1? When you go for lunch, which mess do you eat in?

WO1 Yes
Yes
Yes
Officers' Club


The title 'Warrant Officer' seems to be the cause of some confusion.

In your Armed Forces a commissioned officer holds a commission and a warrant officer holds a warrant. The former is an officer, the latter is not. Easy.

In our Armed Forces, we have Warrant Officers appointed by warrant, Warrant Officers who are commissioned and commissioned officers who are also commissioned! And all three are officers. So confusion reigns!

[Roland Pulfrew]

So confusion reigns
Apparently only in the US military (and perhaps Poland and Romania - although they don't appear to be complaining).
To summarise you do not hold a NATO 'OF' post therefore as far as the majority of NATO Services are concerned you are not of officer status. :ugh::ugh:

To all other PPRuNers "Sorry". I replied to the troll again abd bounced this topic back to the top again. My only excuse is its still early on a Sunday morning:zzz:

[Pontius Navigator]

Roland, sorry, I agree with your footnote.

WO1And all three are officers. So confusion reigns!

Not is our outfit it doesn't. A corporal is an officer, a sergeant is an officer, a policeman is an officer.

Practically everyone is an officer. Just that some are commissioned officers and were are able to make the distinction as one mess if the commissioned officers' mess, another is the sergeants's mess and the last is the junior ranks' mess. As two are named it was unnecessary to identify the first as commissioned.

The Royal Navy do not have officers' messes at all.

[Green Hat/Yellow Hat]

The messing issue would be far easier if we combined all the WO/SNCOs and Officers messes into one.

Then again, I don't think the WOs would accept the drop in standards!!!!! ;)

[AC Ovee]

Chief Two, In the British Armed forces we often commission Warrant Officers; particularly those who have enough time left in their Service to usefully contribute to the commissioned cadre, and wish to do so. Such individuals give up their Royal Warrant in favour of Her Majesty's Commission. One could describe these individuals as commissioned warrant officers, but it would be wrong to give them that title. They become commissioned officers in every sense and adopt an appropriate junior officer rank in the associated Service and, yes, they must be saluted by Warrant Officers of all Services.

It seems to me that this is equivalent to your CWO rank.

[Green Hat/Yellow Hat]

AC,

That would be correct if commissioning was still open to MACR's who wish to stay in their respective trades. No more NCA commissions, unless you know soneone with the key to the "Back Door" !!!!:mad:

[AC Ovee]

I believe that one or two ALMs might be commissioned soon. But they will not be MACR; they are after young people with careers in front of them.

[contacttower118.2]

Surely a Warrant Officer who is commissioned simply becomes a Pilot Officer or equivilent and becomes an OF-1 in NATO terms. There isn't really anything in the RAF like the CWO of the US military.

There isn't really any distinction between those who have come from the ranks and those who started as Officers. The random airman who comes across an officer isn't going to know either way.

[Green Hat/Yellow Hat]

I believe that one or two ALMs might be commissioned soon. But they will not be MACR; they are after young people with careers in front of them.

If they're lucky!

The older ones are caught in the pension trap. The younger ones with careers ahead of them? Well, if they had any sense they'd get out whilst the going was good and had a chance of a second career.

And if they are not clever enough to see it we'll end up with the dross and another bunch of complete to$$3r's, just like so many that have gone before them!

Sorry, end of RANT, and apologies for being eight miles off thread. To regain track, Are MACR WOs? Yes. Any questions?

[chafford5]

It seems to me that this is equivalent to your CWO rank.

The more senior American Army CWOs are similar to LE Officers but they tend to be commissioned/warranted as WOs earlier in their career (after 5-12 years). And some of their pilots are DE Warrant Officers.

[buoy15]

TWR 118.2
Macr/WO's on commissioning are awarded 3 years seniorority and graduate as Fg Off - regarding distinction? - very much so.
I know of 2 (former NCA) newly commissioned arrivals on one particular Sqn who were 'welcomed aboard' by their Flt Cdr (a Direct Entrant Senior Officer) who advised them to quietly settle in, not make any waves and not set their sights too high regarding Captaincy or promotion, as they were not, in his words, "real officers", and must remember their place
Both became Captains and retired as Sqn Ldr's

[Chief_Two]

To summarise you do not hold a NATO 'OF' post therefore as far as the majority of NATO Services are concerned you are not of officer status

Well sorry to contradict you but if the US Army appoints you as an Officer then you are an Officer.

The Department of Defense website gives a good definition of an Officer:

Officer ranks in the United States military consist of commissioned officers and warrant officers. Warrant officers hold warrants from their service secretary and are specialists and experts in certain military technologies or capabilities. The lowest ranking warrant officers (WO1)serve under a warrant, but they receive commissions from the president upon promotion to chief warrant officer 2. These commissioned warrant officers are direct representatives of the president of the United States. They derive their authority from the same source as commissioned officers but remain specialists, in contrast to commissioned officers, who are generalists.

[Green Hat/Yellow Hat]

Chief, can we please move on?

If the US hadn't come along and complicated a very straight forward system we wouldn't need to have pointless threads like this one.

Just accept that our system is different to yours.

And if you get a salute from a Brit? Just treat it as a bonus :ok:

[Chief_Two]

I've moved on! :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

contacttower, in a word NO.

There is the normal route, OASC, IOT, commission usually to the rank of flt lt as seniority (for all from the ranks) is based on previous length of service.

There was (is?) a scheme for fast-track promotion with a very small annual quota for WO that meet the criteria. They go to Cranwell, get a 2-week indoctrination and new kit, and emerge as a flt lt.

Now the difference between commissioning a warrant officer and a commissioned warrant officer is one of both status and future career.

Is a CWO at his highest rank in his career or could he become a lt/capt?

The commissioning a warrant off means he starts at the capt level and could even get promoted to sqn ldr and beyond.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Well sorry to contradict you but if the US Army appoints you as an Officer then you are an Officer.


The Department of Defense website gives a good definition of an Officer:

Officer ranks in the United States military

Chief.

Just because the Department of Defense (sp) says so doesn't make it so for the rest of the world. You are a Warrant Officer and you do not hold a NATO, or for that matter US military, OF or O rank therefore you aren't. :E

[AC Ovee]

Chief Two, a couple of questions for you:

1. In the US Armed Forces, is it possible for a Warrant Officer, 1st or 2nd Class (not CWO) to gain a commission and become, say, a Lt or a Capt (ie a junior officer)? Presumably, such individuals would then have a limited 2nd career.

2. Can your CWOs progress further in rank? Or are they at the zenith of their careers?

Your answers might be key to this whole discussion...

[Contacttower]

Well sorry to contradict you but if the US Army appoints you as an Officer then you are an Officer.




As someone said earlier nearly everyone is an Officer, but some are commissioned and some are not.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"Well sorry to contradict you but if the US Army appoints you as an Officer then you are an Officer."

That may well be the case in the Land of the Free but if you are an American WO then us brits are simply not gonna "wave" at you so best you learn to live with it :rolleyes:

[Contacttower]

Salutes, rather like Breitlings and Raybans are nice but ultimately don't make your penis any larger.

[Chief_Two]

1. In the US Armed Forces, is it possible for a Warrant Officer, 1st or 2nd Class (not CWO) to gain a commission and become, say, a Lt or a Capt (ie a junior officer)? Presumably, such individuals would then have a limited 2nd career.

2. Can your CWOs progress further in rank? Or are they at the zenith of their careers?

1. If you mean US Command Sergeant Majors, I don't think so. They progress from Battalion CSM to Brigade, Division, Multi National Force CSM etc. Up to 12 years enlisted service, NCOs can apply for the Warrant Officer program, though. I believe this limit is being raised.

2. They progress from WO1 to CW5 with 30 years WO service possible.

[AC Ovee]

Chief Two,
Thanks for your answers. All is now clear. In a nutshell, your Warrant Officers have absolutely no equivalency with any WO in the British Armed Forces. This became crystal clear the moment you wrote that an NCO, with some service behind him, can apply to join the Warrant Officer program. In the RAF, your WO program is the equivalent of an RAF Branch Commission, except that our people become fully commissioned. They are not Warrant Officers and they never will be Warrant Officers.

Returning to your original question, and I can now see why you received some acerbic replies from us Brits.....NO, Master Aircrew (and any other British Forces Warrant Officer) is NOT equivalent to your Warrant Officer rank. We are equivalent to the highest non commissioned rank in your Armed Forces (E9, I believe) and I can now understand why you made the comment about Master Sergeant.

Do all of the US forces (USAF and USN particularly) have a Warrant Officer program similar to the one you have described?

[Pontius Navigator]

AC Ovee, don't forget a branch officer could have been a WO or MAcr and all would, given their seniority been commissioned at Captain equivalent.

[AC Ovee]

PN, Agreed. And I guess the US Forces have Master Chief Sergeants (E9?) who get commisioned to Warrant Officer. Its very different to our way.

I've just edited my previous post

[240 OCU]

AC Ovee, don't forget a branch officer could have been a WO or MAcr and all would, given their seniority been commissioned at Captain equivalent.


PN. Are you sure? I thought, irrespective of seniority, a Master Aircrew on Branch Officer terms had to serve 4 years as a Fg Off first. The Army QM commission being somewhat different.

Standing by to be corrected...........:{

240

[buoy15]

240
4 years as Fg Off - correct - but 5 is the norm

[Chief_Two]

Do all of the US forces (USAF and USN particularly) have a Warrant Officer program similar to the one you have described?

The USAF stopped their Warrant Officer program in 1958 when the E8 and E9 (Chief Master Sergeant) grades were introduced.

US Navy E7 -E9 (Chief, Senior Chief and Master Chief Petty Officers) are commissioned as Chief Warrant Officer Grade 2 (no WO1s in the Navy). Enlisted grades from E6 can also be commissioned as Limited Duty Officers (Ensign or Lieutenant Junior Grade) with a potential career structure up to Captain (USN). CWs can also apply to be LDOs.

CWs - technical officer specialists
LDOs - technical officer managers

[PingDit]

Is in fact 'Warrant Officers and Senior Non-commissioned Officers Mess'.
Usually abbreviated to 'WO & SNCO's Mess'.
This is to show some differentiation between WO's and SNCO's and SNCO's rather than Sergeants because not all SNCO's are sergeants.

:)

[effortless]

WOs are still gazzetted aren't they? I always assumed that they were the most senior rank in the RAF. They always scared the **** out of me. :uhoh:

[Chief_Two]

Usually abbreviated to 'WO & SNCO's Mess'

Shouldn't that be the 'WOs, MACRs and SNCOs Mess' :ok:

[ZH875]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


Somebody shut him up.


P L E A S E.
:zzz::zzz::zzz::zzz:

[samuraimatt]

Shouldn't that be the 'WOs, MACRs and SNCOs Mess' Yes that is correct, what ever you say C2.

[Chief_Two]

I've been a MACR since 1988 and yes, I am a WO1. I'm not holding out for promotion, but the salary takes my mind off it.

So you've been the same rank for 19 years. I think the RAF need a few Chief Warrant Officer grades!

[ZH875]

So you've been the same rank for 19 years. I think the RAF need a few Chief Warrant Officer grades!And be the same rank for 19 seconds.

I know who will get most respect

But I guess the number of salutes will be roughly equal.:)

I guess I have no option but to put this eejit on my ignore list. Then I wont have to wait until he Foxtrot Oscars.

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

Pingdit
Anyway, I digress...I've been a MACR since 1988 and yes, I am a WO1.



Perhaps promotion should be slowed down. Or when you reach the top you have to make your way down again.. then up.. then down ...then up....

[samuraimatt]

I think the RAF need a few Chief Warrant Officer grades And the us forces needs one less warrant officer.

[AC Ovee]

I think the RAF need a few Chief Warrant Officer grades!

Well, we wouldn't use the same terminology, but we do need to do something. 20 years in one rank is not ideal. So far, we have created an additional pay ladder to move onto, by selection (another word for promotion, I guess), thus taking our salary by annual increment to a level equivalent to Major. But the badge doesn't change, and the rank doesn't change. It doesn't matter to some of us.

[RODF3]

20 years in one rank is not ideali think 20 years in one rank on the PAS is great!

[No Vote Joe]

i think 20 years in one rank on the PAS is great!

Let me see, another 5 yrs to the glass ceiling at level 20, then another 10 years at mark time, plus all the extra cr@p of empowerment and no option of commissioning!!

Yes, it is still too long!! :mad:

[mcs7]

Maybe if we answer our american allies original question he will fekk off and let this thread die

Are Master Aircrew Warrant Officers?

For all intents and purposes - Yes because they hold the same Royal Warrant as a Warrant Officer

Are there any differences - Yes - All Warrant Officers were Corporals, some MACR's may have been Corporals

[Dave Angel]

Post #2:
"Absolutely, equivalent to WO1"

Err, we did. He just won't let it lie!:ugh:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Mcs7

Nice post but then it got silly :rolleyes:

"Are there any differences - Yes - All Warrant Officers were Corporals, some MACR's may have been Corporals"

You could also add to that that some Warrant Officers and MAcr's were SAC's whilst some others were not which, by the well worn inference you are trying to use means that the non SAC types are not as qualified.......catch my drift :=

[mcs7]

Seldomfitforpurpose
all Warrant Officers were Corporals is a fact,
However, while some Warrant Officers and MACR's could have been SAC's not all Warrant Officers were SAC's as Direct Entrants and Craft Apprentices passed out of training as Jnr Techs nor would all Warrant Officers have been Jnr Techs as Supertechs passed out of training as Corporals up until the early 70's

[PingDit]

Sorry to have to correct you but....
Corporal was the only rank I skipped when I transferred from ground radar to aircrew (went from JT to sergeant).
:ok:

[mcs7]

Yes clearly you did but if you are aircrew then your rank is MACR and what I said was all Warrant Officers were once Corporals

:}

[charliegolf]

Which type of 'Warrant Holder' gets the most dosh?

CG

[TonkaEngO]

Been resisting but can do so no longer - just had to join in.
I believe that the distinction that has been alluded to is that a WO, particularly an ex-ac tradesman, will have taken approx 25-30 years to attain his rank. Hard fought years gaining massive experience as a Junior airman, JNCO and then graduating through the SNCO cadre.
Not that I am inferring any less honour to the MACRs but anyone who has been a MACR for 20 years - and still serving - is either 80 years old or was promoted to MACR after approx 10-12 years service.

[It's Not Working]

all Warrant Officers were Corporals is a fact,
Pedant Mode On
Wind the clock back 30+ years there was a window of opportunity to remuster as a Court Stenographer. Memory is hazy here and I can’t remember if the window was open to all or just TG17. Again hazy memory but SAC’s on qualifying went direct to FS and Cpls to WO therefore an SAC could make WO without passing through corporal rank.
Sod all to do with MAcr but then again a lot on this thread misses the point.
Pedant Mode Off

[charliegolf]

18 year old does 10 years as an airman, remuster; FS after 12 yrs (24months training?). 30 years old. Macr in another 7? 37yrs old. Retire at 55, with 18 years' seniority.

Might just do it, but my memory of the time promotion of old is a bit hazy, as is whether 16-18 counts for service.
CG

[No Vote Joe]

Been resisting but can do so no longer - just had to join in.
I believe that the distinction that has been alluded to is that a WO, particularly an ex-ac tradesman, will have taken approx 25-30 years to attain his rank. Hard fought years gaining massive experience as a Junior airman, JNCO and then graduating through the SNCO cadre.
Not that I am inferring any less honour to the MACRs but anyone who has been a MACR for 20 years - and still serving - is either 80 years old or was promoted to MACR after approx 10-12 years service.

And your point is??:*

[Fish Eagle]

:) So gents....heads up all Air Force Other Ranks, WO's and Officers here

Chief_Two wrote from the USA by the way


The USAF stopped their Warrant Officer program in 1958 when the E8 and E9 (Chief Master Sergeant) grades were introduced. Chief_Two and also wrote....from the USA

Sorry to disappoint you but I have no intention of retiring. It's a pleasure and an honor to be able to serve my country as a Commissioned Warrant Officer.Are we writing to a ghost then, or is the Army taking over an aviation forum here?

Bring out the popcorn and yeast..or better yet let's drop the subject and go flying ;)

[samuraimatt]

Hard fought years gaining massive experience as a Junior airman, JNCO

Tonka, there are many ex NCO's and SNCO's who are Airman Aircrew now and are now maybe Macr. As for someone who may have been a Macr for 20 years, well there are some that are employed past the normal retirement age of 55 in the RAuxF.

[TonkaEngO]

NVJ

Read it again and refer to thread title - sorry if its confusing you...

Sam,
Agree that the ex-airman have been there seen it done it - lots of others haven't

[c130jbloke]

And just to rub it in I can think of 2x MACr who went from 0 to that rank within 12 years. Indeed, one of them was 32 when he put the rank up.

:D:D:D

[OHP 15M]

MAcr by age 32 - this guy is obviously a very capable 'high flyer' who now has 23 years at the same rank to look forward to, unless he gets commissioned (providing he's not PAS of course). How will the RAF maintain the motivation of outstanding individuals such as this and retain them to age 55 ? The commissioned rank structure (and associated pay levels) provides obvious incentive for officers' career paths. I'm not aware of any officers that have been promoted to Air Chief Marshall with 23 years left to serve ! One solution would be to align NCA ranks to those of ground airmen. This is clearly barking mad. The only sensible solution is to remove all the bars within PAS as more cash = motivation + retention. If an individual fails to perform to a required standard (on an annual basis through SJAR), then he or she does not progress the the next PAS level.

Can anyone provide a logical justification as to why these max PAS levels should not be scrapped immediately ? Answers on a postcard to CAS please, or just reply to this post.:ok:

[Chief_Two]

You need a more senior rank as well - Staff Warrant Officer or Staff Master Aircrew??

So Mrs Butt, a Staff Master Aircrew would be known as SMACR Butt

[OHP 15M]

Thanks for that Chief, but I think all MAcr would settle for the financial incentive of being able to reach the highest Professional Aviator Pay Spine increment levels. I've got a hunch that all PAS aircrew (other than commissioned pilots) would also be in favour of scrapping the increment level bars. Our 'high flying aviators' will then have an earning power up to about $130,000 of your Disney dollars, which is what we refer to in the UK as "nice".

All those in favour say 'Aye' or click on the link below:

http://www.10DowningStreetPetitions/Scrap-PAS-Increment-Bars.htm

:ok:

[Wafty Cranker]

How far off thread. End this now!!

[PingDit]

Ended - hurrah! :D

[eyespied]

So, to answer the original question: MACR are Warrant Officers but are listed behind them in the Air Force List. Only fair as majority of Airmen have many more ranks to wade throuigh before attaining the highest rank in their Trade.

[Spurlash2]

Eyespied,
11 ranks to the 'Tate & Lyle' is not unknown.
I know.
And I'm old and grumpy, as well:ok:

[samuraimatt]

Only fair as majority of Airmen have many more ranks to wade throuigh before attaining the highest rank in their Trade.

Quite right too. All that treacle to wade through for less money money than Macr.:8

[Wafty Cranker]

:mad::mad::mad::ugh:E:ugh:N:ugh:D:ugh:E:ugh:X:ugh::mad::mad: :mad:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Oh no it's not :p

[chafford5]

MAcr by age 32 - this guy is obviously a very capable 'high flyer' who now has 23 years at the same rank to look forward to, unless he gets commissioned (providing he's not PAS of course). How will the RAF maintain the motivation of outstanding individuals such as this and retain them to age 55 ? The only sensible solution is to remove all the bars within PAS as more cash = motivation + retention. If an individual fails to perform to a required standard (on an annual basis through SJAR), then he or she does not progress the the next PAS level.



Possibly in conjunction with the appointment system used by the South African Air Force (see link below). Within the WO1 rank there are number of different appointment levels with distinctive insignia. Perhaps that could be used together with pay as an incentive for long-serving WOs/MACR.

http://www.af.mil.za/uniform/rank_ins.html

[buoy15]

PingDit
Such talent
Why didn't you attempt Cranditz? - you should have easily got your scraper by now - or are you a loadie?:8

[St Johns Wort]

Hello Boy of 15, are you still hearing those voices poppet?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"or are you a loadie"

Oh how we giggled :p

[buoy15]

Wasn't the one about the FunBus Nav crossing the Atlantic was it?

[chafford5]

From the RNZAF website:

A New Era Starts for Master Aircrew


Chief of Air Force (CAF) Air Vice-Marshal (AVM) Graham Lintott, Warrant Officer of the Air Force (WOAF) Keith Gell and Commanding Officer of Operational Support Wing (COOSW) Wing Commander (WGCDR) Cummings attended a formal Dining-In for 35 Warrant Officers and Master Aircrew (MACR) at Base Auckland’s W/O and SNCO Mess on 29 June.

Warrant Officer Pierre Hilliard


It was the end of an era on 1 July when the Master Aircrew and Warrant Officer ranks were recombined.

Senior personnel managers decided that in today’s joint environment it is time to remove the delineation at the top of the Royal New Zealand Air Force Non-commissioned Officer (NCO) rank structure, which has caused confusion with other Services in New Zealand and with our coalition partners overseas.

The RNZAF rank structure is still very much based on the Royal Air Force (RAF), which in 1946 brought in separate branches for ground crew and aircrew. Prior to 1946, there was no differentiation between aircrew and ground crew Warrant Officers. The ground crew structure was similar to what we are currently familiar with, however the aircrew ranks went from Aircrew 1 through to Aircrew 4 plus Master Aircrew at the top.

Incidentally, between 1950 and 1964 Technical Warrant Officers were designated ‘Master Technicians’ in the RAF. The separate structure for NCO Aircrew proved to be confusing and unpopular and was dropped in 1950, but the Master Aircrew title for Aircrew W/Os was retained and is still used in the RAF today.

A formal Dining-In was held at RNZAF Base Auckland W/O and Senior Non-Commissioned Officers (SNCO) Mess to mark the occasion of the recombination of the senior SNCO ranks in the RNZAF. The function was attended by CAF AVM Lintott, COOSW WGCDR Cummings and 35 Warrant Officers and Master Aircrew. One would have to say there combination of ranks was either not popular and/or greeted with general apathy as 35/130 Warrant Officer and Master Aircrew is a poor turnout regardless of the current operational tempo.

During the evening, presentations were made by the CAF to MACRs Pete Hilliard and John Voice for completing 20 years service as MACR -an outstanding and committed effort not to mention the extra overseas allowances during that time.

An excellent dinner was served at the Whenuapai Combined Mess and old Friendships and contacts reaffirmed by all those who attended. During the formal part of the dinner, MACR John Voice spoke on the history of the MACR rank (thanks for the facts and figures JV) and WOAF Keith Gell spoke of how we must always look to the future, focussing on leadership and the mentoring functions of both the Master Aircrew and Warrant Officer ranks. The Chairman of the Mess Committee (CMC) of the Auckland W/O and SNCOs Mess, MACR Dave Lark finished off the formal speeches by reciting Concise Oxford Dictionary definitions of W/O and Master and reiterated that we need to look forward to the future of the recombined air and ground W/O ranks and embrace the proposition as it is not going to change in the near future.

My personal slant on the issue is that there are differences in the roles of aircrew and many ground W/Os, especially with aircrew that are serving on flying squadrons, as they are first and foremost, ‘hands-on operators’ and then senior instructors. However, aircrew W/Os have the same supervisory and mentoring functions to their junior tradesmen as all Warrant Officers and are expected to fulfil the same RNZAF disciplinary and welfare duties. Indeed, more and more aircrew W/Os are/will be posted into general New Zealand Defence Force (NZDF) W/O posts and this aspect of our careers needs to be embraced with the same professional approach as our aircrew jobs.

The decision has been made to recombine the ranks, let’s get on with the tasks at hand.

[NutLoose]

Remember Loadmasters were not the only job in the RAF to be Master Aircrew, many trades had them, I had the Privilege of working with the last Flying Master Pilot in the RAF " Taff walker"...... who was once asked "I thought the lowest flying rank in the RAF was Pilot Officer?", to which he responded, "you are correct there laddie"..


Mind you, I did upset one particular loadie on a VC10 who was being really obnoxious by pointing out on a pure passenger flight, their main role seated at the back of the cabin was simply to balance out the weight of the Navigator up front in the cockpit....that other relic of a bygone age in the airline business.............



preparing for the flack in progress...

[10enggone]

Nutloose

What flack, the truth has outed!!!

:O

Seriously off thread now