Vulcan book

[Tim McLelland]

My Vulcan book's nearly finished - just "mopping up" now!

Anyone have (or know where I could find) any pictures showing Vulcans with the OCU at Finningley (ie- with Finningley in the background)?

Second plea - anyone have a shot of XH539 during its service at Boscombe Down? It had rather odd calibration markings on the bomb bay.

Even more obscure - anyone got a shot of XH478 when it carried dayglow strip markings? We're assuming this was in connection with refuelling trials although the stripes seem to have been applied at a later date - a mystery!

As ever, any pictures that haven't been seen much before would be very welcome. I want to try and make the book as interesting as possible but of course it's a struggle to include anything which hasn't been seen many times before. Same with the text - there's only one developmental/service history to tell so there ain't much scope for flexibility, but I'm counting on some good accounts from Vulcan personnel to at least make the book a decent read! Thanks folks!

Tim

[BEagle]

Whereabouts on the aircraft were these strips?

538 had 2 circular dayglo rings around the AAR probe. Although we told the American girls that these were lipstick marks, they were actually intended to assist visual release point assessment during some bombing comp with non-standard bombing parameters!

[samuraimatt]

My Vulcan book's nearly finished

A thinly disguised use of a thread to advertise it.:rolleyes:

[Exrigger]

TM: Try these you might find something of use:

http://www.abpic.co.uk/search.php?q=RAF%20Finningley%20(DSA%20/%20EGCN)&u=location

http://www.rob.clubkawasaki.com/1969bindex.htm

http://www.rob.clubkawasaki.com/page5indexb.htm

http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/bae/539bs.htm

http://www.avrovulcan.org.uk/pm/1/479_brawdy1.htm

[Tim McLelland]

A thinly disguised use of a thread to advertise it.

Not really - to be honest I couldn't give a rat's a*s whether anyone buys it or not as I don't get any royalties from it, so I'm afraid you're wrong there matey!

I simply want to do a decent job for all the Vulcan folks who might buy it, that's all. That's a lot of cynicism for a Sunday afternoon ain't it?!:)

[Tim McLelland]

Beagle, the dayglow strips on XH478 are at the top of the fin, on the nose behind the radome, on the ECM housing and (possibly) on the wing tips. I guess they would fit-in neatly with the aircraft's refuelling trials but the dates don't tally, so it's hard to work-out what they were applied for.

On 539 the black rectangles are in a line, straddling each side of the bomb bay doors along the centreline. I've seen these markings (rather foolishly) referred-to as camera ports in the past but they're obviously calibration markings associated with weapon drops of some sort - the clue's also in the camera fairings attached under the wing tips.

Exrigger, thanks for the pointers;)

[Exrigger]

TM: I remember on another thread the discussion about the conversion of aircraft from Mk 201 engines to 301's the link below has some interesting comments re some aircraft flying with both Mks at the same time.

http://www.jet-flight.net/vvisits.html

[Tim McLelland]

Indeed, one aircraft did have both 201 and 301's fitted for a time, and contrary to the blurb I got from BAe years ago, it's clear that some aircraft were re-engined, so I think I've got all that sorted now - finally! I note that in the article you mention the infamous "B.Mk.2A" gets mentioned yet again. That non-existant variant is never gonna lay down and die it seems! I'm looking forward to seeing if any of the new books uncover anything of interest and if they'll perpetuate any of the old myths yet again - I'm sure they will, but then I'm sure I'll probably add a few gaffes of my own in my book - it's not the most reliable of projects when you're relying on hopelessly confused books, dubious magazine features, a manufacturer that is now only interested in airliners, and former staff who have either died, or long-since lost any records of what really happened back in the 'fifties. I'm aiming to base much of my book on personal accounts (to make it a decent read) rather than just churning-out the usual history yet again (it's not as if you can re-invent it). I think the most interesting thing I've discovered so far though is that despite every book and article crediting the Vulcan's delta/flying wing idea to Roy Chadwick, it seems it wasn't actually his brainchild at all! Just goes to show you can never rely on published information I guess!

[peppermint_jam]

When's it going to print Tim?

[Tim McLelland]

Goes to print in couple of weeks so I guess it'll be out by Christmas hopefully. Might wait until XH558 takes to the air if they don't encounter any more delays though:)

[Tim McLelland]

I keep noting references to the arming systems on the Blue Danube and Yellow Sun (and Blue Steel, WE.177) as carried by Vulcans. Can anyone remember what the basic procedure was for Vulcan crews? Not after details as such but I would like to establish how the aircraft were armed. I assume that it involved some sort of electronic de-coding in-flight? Anyone remember?

[Exrigger]

TM: All I have found so far is at the two links, again don't know if these are of use.

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Uk/UKArsenalDev.html

http://www.century20war.co.uk/page5.html

[XV277]

Beagle, the dayglow strips on XH478 are at the top of the fin, on the nose behind the radome, on the ECM housing and (possibly) on the wing tips. I guess they would fit-in neatly with the aircraft's refuelling trials but the dates don't tally, so it's hard to work-out what they were applied for.

Tim,
Those sound awfully like Cold Weather Trials markings, carried when they deployed to suitably cold parts of Canada. According to Tim Mason's book, XH478 was used by AAEE for RWR Orange Putter trials

Alternatively - found this on a quick google :

http://worldwar2airfields.fotopic.net/p12554397.html

[Pontius Navigator]

Tim, what ever you want to know about the Vulcan arming, EP for RB/YS and ER for WE.

If you care to post specifice questions, open or PM, and I will answer as best I can.

[Tim McLelland]

Thanks Pontious. Well as I said, I'm not particularly concerned by the details as such, but there doesn't seem to be any available info on just how the various weapons were armed. There are some occasional references to "in flight" arming but again they don't specify what this would involve. Naturally, it didn't involve the last-minute insertion of material (as was the case on some early bombs) but on the other hand I can't find anything to explain just what the procedure was. Seems a shame not to make mention of such a relevant point in my book, especially when it's been overlooked in every other Vulcan/V-Bomber book to date.

[Tim McLelland]

XV277 - thanks for the pointer, I think that solves the mystery. Despite references saying the dayglow markings were applied at a different stage, they were indeed applied during the trials, as that photo illustrates. Sorted!

[Tombstone]

Tim,

what happened to the RAF book you were working on?

[Regie Mental]

Well he's already posted most of the pictures taken from some expensive back seat rides on free internet forums so not quite sure what else said book will contain.

[Tim McLelland]

Tombstone (ignoring the bitter comments from Regie, whoever he is), the book project was put on hold because the PR guy who was overseeing the project was just totally impossible to work with (he's the same guy that was behind the partwork collection and the RAF Magazine disasters...) and he finally threw a tantrum and withdrew the RAF's support. We could produce the book without the RAF's endorsement of course but I don't know if that will happen or not. To be honest I don't really care as it's their loss not mine. Yet another PR disaster to add to their growing list I fear!

[Regie Mental]

'PR Disaster' - yeah right.

[Tim McLelland]

oh dear - somebody has some unresolved issues to deal with :rolleyes:
bless;)

[Regie Mental]

The officer who you've just had a go at who does not deserve to be the subject of personal attack on an open forum. What the demise of the RAF Magazine and partwork demonstrated is that there just isn't the public interest there to sustain such publications, something undoubtedly equally applicable to your opus.

As a journo you seem determined to burn your bridges and I sincerely hope that you are now deemed persona non grata. After all, if this is what you do when you don't get your own way, why on earth should the RAF help you in future. Further, as someone whose had several back seat fast jet rides organised by RAFPR and paid for by the taxpayer you're more than a tad ungrateful in my view.

[Wader2]

the demise of the RAF Magazine and partwork demonstrated is that there just isn't the public interest there to sustain such publications.

I noticed in the paperwhop the other day yet another RAF partwork magazine. Theinitial issue had some metal badge or some such. As it was buried under a load of other magazines I couldn't see what the offer was.

These partwork publications seem much more commericial and not very public. You engage with the buying public for about 4-5 editions then the whole drops off to subscription only. All sales after the first 4 are thus hidden and seen only be those who sign up and stay the course.

You end up with coffee table type book only in a loose document binder probably covered in dust on a shelf full of short stories. It would be cheaper to buy a proper hardcover book every 2-3 months.

[Tim McLelland]

Okay, I'll answer your points but perhaps we can leave this subject then and get back to the subject of the thread?

I wasn't making a "personal attack" - just stating what happened. I don't see any need to invent any tales when I can simply state the truth. As for who "deserves" what, well that's really not for you to judge as it's obviously none of your business - it's between me, the publisher and the RAF.

I don't see any need to burn any proverbial bridges either but at the same time I don't see any need to kiss anyone's nether regions, even if you do. The notion that the RAF has "helped" me is typical of the kind of comments I get from enthusiasts sometimes. It's really not a case of "help" it's about co-operating on a project which was intended to provide the men and women of the RAF with a good-quality book that would reach a wide audience, in preference to the many rather dull and unimaginative "RAF Books" that have been churned-out before. If anything, I think my publisher and myself were helping the RAF, not vice versa.

For your information, everyone I came into contact with did their very best to help me. As ever, the RAF's air and ground crew are a buch of great people, and from those I've subsequently spoken to, they're as disappointed as I am that the RAF's PR people (or at least one person in particular) saw fit to withdraw the RAF's support presumably because he didn't like anyone pointing-out to him just how disfunctional the PR set-up currently is. It really is that simple.


You seem to have a very odd concept of how these things work. It wasn't about the RAF graciously providing me with "joyrides" - it was about gaining suitable access so that we could obtain the very best images. I don't have any desire to invent tales or start trying to "kiss up" to RAF people even though other people patently do. The basic fact is that we offered to provide the RAF with a top-quality book, and one which was better than anything they'd ever had before, but the man who was overseeing the project evidently didn't look at it in those terms. That's his choice, just as it's my choice to walk-away and do something else more rewarding.

You might also be interested to know that (presumably as an act of spite or pettiness) we've been told (unless the decision changes) that all the photographes cannot be published elsewhere. So maybe this puts your worries about the waste of taxpayer's money in a different light? All those photographs taken at great expense for nothing other than my personal collection - do you think that's right too?!

Maybe I will be declared "persona non grata" as you say, (not that I could possibly care less) but I think you'll find that most RAF people aren't that childish and they're capable of taking a more intelligent view of realities. You might have had your judgement clouded by the appaling rubbish which is peddled on spotter's web sites but you ought to be old enough to know that what you read on such sites might not necessarily be correct...

Frankly, I don't really have any interest in dealing with people's egos and I really have got better things to do, so regardless of whatever rubbish you might have heard elsewhere, this is the situation as it stands. We may publish a book or then again we might not. Naturally both the publisher and I have rather lost interest in it! My only regret is that the men and women of the RAF ultimately won't get the book that they deserve, but that's not our fault - we did the best we could.

As for your judgement on the partwork and magazine, that's your view to which you're entitled. You'll not be surprised to know that a whole lot of other people (myself included) firmly believe that both publications failed for various reasons which we all identified, long before the publications folded. Suffice to say that we don't think it had anything to do with lack of interest from potential readers.

Hope that clears-up everything for you.

[Tim McLelland]

Wader, the publication you refer-to is the latest piece of merchandise which has appeared from the new franchaise set-up. It is indeed another load of nonsense but aimed squarely at kids so I'm sure it will appeal to the appropriate buyers.

The previous part-work to which I referred was of course intended to be a more serious publication. Unfortunately it was dull as dishwater and lots of us confidently predicted it wouldn't last six months... and it didn't! No great loss but ultimately it just sours the marketplace for anything better to come along. Now if you mentioned the idea to a publisher they'd say "oh, these things just don't sell" - wrong of course, but you can't blame publishers for thinking it, based on such heroic failures as the partwork and the magazine.

[forget]

What the hell is partwork:confused::confused:

[MostlyHarmless]

Something they do at MoD / DPA / PMA / TLA I think

[Valiantone]

Part work...

Something that does well if done by the experts apparently.

Back to the thread in question.....

Are there some good Photos in the Vulcan book Tim? Looking forward to it.

Cheers

V1

[Pontius Navigator]

I don't know if my thoughts are true but I think it is like producing a book in parts.

Periodically you will see a large package, at a low starter price, appear in your newsagent. It might be dolls houses, pocket watches, parts of an aircraft model or whatever. You collect parts of the model or collection and a glossy supplement. Each week you get part of the works to build the model or complete your collection.

Typically week 2 will ramp the price up from £1.99 to £3.99 or more. It may be published fortnightly. After about 4 issues you need to subscribe to continue the collection.

In this way they can flood the newsagents with the publication for the first few issues and take the hit on no sales. In week 5 they have an assured readership and can tailor the numbers to the readership. Where they are providing a part of a model or whatever they can getthe Chinese to reduce the numbers accordingly. The product may also be marketed in many parts of the world.

[UpShutter]

franchaise
I used to speak that fluently.