Shortage of Rated low time pilots?

[Founder]

Is there a shortage of pilots like all recruiters are saying?

I've have a lot of friends who has gotten jobs on turbo-propps but what about A320's and 737's, is there really a shortage of pilots?

[Anonymus6]

This topic has been covered several times in pprune. There is a shortage of qualifed pilots, such as Captains, TRE, TRI and defenetly flight instructores. But no shortage of low time first officers. A big shortage in US, Europe, and Australia when it comes to flight instructores, and I mean a big shortage. No FI, no pilots can be produced at the rate it is suppose to. Boeing and Airbus are busy up to their ass to build A320 and B737Ng. So you do the math!!! the demand can not keep up with the suply. It will be interesting to see what really going to happen within few years.

[Founder]

Am I right in assuming that more and more F/O's are being fast-tracked up to left seat and captains move to TRI/TRE positions? There by creating a lack of F/O's in the future?

[zerograv]

Shortage of rated low time pilots! ...... Don't think so!!!
Interest in people with experience on type; certainly yes.

Lets face it. It costs them nothing, to say that there is a shortage
of people with the appropriate rating.
You'll go out and do the rating and when you'll came back with the rating,
only then, they will remember that you need to have experience on type.

You quite rightly say, that you have lots of friends on Turbo-Prop jobs.
Thats probably the best option to get a job, as everyone tends to go
"jet" because, at the end of the day, the price almost the same.

Just my two cents,
Zero

[Founder]

But what about the amount of aircraft being flown? There are a lot more jet aircraft out there than TP's...

The most popular choise for the guy's from my school has been the SAAB 340 but, in total there is about 400 built and most of them flying in the US. No more being built.

ATR's about 330 72's and 400 42's delivered...

Comparing that to the A320, there is about 3000 built and almost all of them are flying and more are being shipped out of the factory every week...

This is just a thought... but the demand for pilots should be a lot higher on these mid size jets than for TP's.

[MD80rookie]

It's how the food chain works. Start with turboprop, move on to jet. Or, get hired by flag carrier and start with top notch jet-job. Or BUY a type rating and get a job, worked for me!

The question should be, I think: lack of pilots willing to finance their t/r?

As long as there are guys and gals like myself, there will never be a pilot shortage.

/Rookie

[Founder]

Rookie

How much experience did you have when you bought your type and when did you get your job?

[Dani]

The so-called shortage of Captains and trainers in the Eastern World is only the lack of understanding of most Head of Operations that there would be literally thousands of good guys with low hours and/or turboprop experience, but for known reasons do not want them.

Dani

[Anonymus6]

Once again these topic have been covered several times. lets close it pelease,,,,please,,,,please,,,!! Founder,,, if you really want to know if there is a shortage of pilots, yes there is and it is going to get worst. Why??? I tell u why? after 9/11 the school was not producing enough pilots and pilots was getting forlough left and right. The interest to becoming a pilot decreased day by day, due to several reasones. Now the aviation industry is booming and airlines need pilots,,,first of al the school can not keep with the demand that the airliens require FO, due to flight instructor shortage and other bull **** that exist. The prices for flight training going up like crazy due to fuel prices (thanks to ******* bush administration that raises the fuel prices to make money). 3- why should someone become a pilot and make crapy money first and second year of his or her life and bee in deep loan dept, why he or she can study IT or economics and make more money than a pilot. You see there are several reasones!!! why don't you take a look at this article below and make your decision about pilot shortage!!!

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/313681_pilotshortage30.html?source=mypi

found,,,,, even you might get a job this days:D:D:D:D:D. Just joking :) Good Luck!!

pleae lests just close this threat, it has been covered several times!!

I'm done discussing this topic several times, good luck all of u guys trying to get a job. It is good time.:ok:

[CAT1 REVERSION]

Dani,

Some Airlines don't want experienced Turbo-Prop guys because there are people like Rookie who are prepared to pay for their own rating.

Gone have the days when most went via the natural progression career path of getting your first job flying for a regional on their turbo-prop fleet, getting your 1500hrs and then moving to a jet job if you so wished!

Self funding wannabeees who pay for their ratings are killing the Industry, Airlines have never had it so good, they don't have to pay for your rating anymore, they have/are reducing salarys', and they can pick and choose who to take:ugh:

I myself did it the hard way, like most, but now, its a different ball game. There is a massive shortage of Flying Instructors, all because the newly qualified are paying to do their own training. This Industry is being stripped of all the benefits of yesterday, and yes you can argue that companys' are becoming more lean and proitable, but at what cost. We, the Pilots are now treated as CUSTOMERS!:=

The sooner people like Rookie stop buying their ratings, the sooner terms and conditions may return to an acceptable level. We are now glorified bus drivers, and in many cases paid less. GUYS WAKE UP!:mad:

[Founder]

CAT 1

The fact is that there is no way to get a TP job today without paying for your type-rating even there. So what would you do? Stay unemployed or pay 18'000 Euro for a Turbo-Propp or 22'000 Euro for a JET aircraft?

I dont know a single new pilot since 2004 who hasn't payed for his/her own TR. Even if it ment flying SF340's, RJ's, ATR's or what ever...

[ICING AOA]

why should someone become a pilot and make crapy money first and second year of his or her life and bee in deep loan dept, why he or she can study IT or economics and make more money than a pilot.


Because if you study economics, you will have to work most of the time in a dark and boring office whereas when you are at FL 410 you can enjoy a priceless view of the world, with your suglasses :ok:

In aviation we can't plan anything ! At the moment there are still thousands of CPL holders looking for a job everywhere on the planet ! 9/11 is not the only event that slowed down the aviation ...

[CAT1 REVERSION]

Founder,

Thats my point. Guys of yesterday did what I would call an "apprenticship", they became Instructors, learnt to fly an aircraft and Increase confidence in doing so. Now there is a so called shortage, this stage and the Turbo-Prop stages are being by-passed.

In this country there are a quite a few Turbo-Prop operators, Flybe for one are expecting to get 60 of the things, thats 300+ pilots. Now Flybe are widely quoted at accepting they loose the majority of their F/O's to jet operators, why, mainly due to natural progression, this in turn frees' up seats on the Turbo-Prop fleet for low houred and Low experienced F/O's, whilst the Jet operators get reasonably experienced F/O's to fly their jets.

I accept your argument that you would struggle to get a job as others are willing to pay for their rating, but that is just the problem! Go and do some Instructing for a year, then I'm sure you will be much more attractive to the likes of Flybe ( I don't know of ONE SINGLE F/O at Flybe who paid for his type rating before joining the company!).

As I said before, the sooner wannabees STOP paying for their ratings, the SOONER Airlines will have to do something about it, ie pay for your rating or at the most bond you.....:ugh:

[Founder]

CAT 1

The part about instructing is pretty interesting, I know 2 instructors who went looking for jobs, both had 2000+ hours of instructing. When they went to interviews at Ryan, GermanWings, Air Berlin the reqruiters didn't even bother to look at their SEP total time, the only thing that was interesting to them was their ME/IR and Turbine time... it wouldn't have mattered if they had 4000+ hours of SEP because it's all VFR and all slow speed SEP.

So back to stage 1, an instructor rating takes about 6-8 months to finish and costs about 14'000 Euro's today (including the cost of rent and food during those months of training), pay another 4 and you get a TR and start flying Turbine aircraft instead of having to sit right seat with pilots who doesn't even know what a glide slope is...

[Dani]

While I understand that paying for the rating is a bad thing, I don't see the problem in hiring them in any other company after they have succeeded in the first place. If they would be incapable pilots, you could read it in the newspapers. I still have to read a statistic that says that paying pilots are worse than others.

All in all, if you have a certain set of abilities, it's indifferent that you paid for it or not. And Head of Ops all over the world wouldn't care if they have paid for it in their previous job.

Which lead to the conclusion: There must be something else wrong why airlines don't get the pilots they need. Airlines only who ask for money to fly for them would experience a shortage. Obviously they don't. As soon as they wouldn't find any paying pilots anymore, they would lift the pay and take them for free. Which they don't do. So: There is something else wrong with the head of operations, not with the pilots!

Your reasoning is not logical and only serves the purpose of blaming self-paying pilots :hmm:
Dani

[fudpucker]

And those of you like me (longer in the tooth, grey hairs etc) will have seen all this before. Booms in the late 80's, late 90's....then a bust, 911 was the most recent one, in the 70's it was an increase in fuel prices and a downturn in the world-wide economy. This rate of expansion cannot continue, house prices in the UK cannot continue to soar and stock markets do suffer corrections from time to time.
I think we're seeing a bit of a bubble in pilot requirement/airline expansion at the moment. I have no idea what will cause the next downturn but rest assured it will happen. My only advice to anyone is when the music stops, make sure you have a seat and that you've occupied it for some time. I also have no idea if anyone should buy a jet or a TP rating when looking for the first job, why don't you actually ask the airlines/operators?

[RoyHudd]

Anonymus6, the Bush administration do not raise fuel prices: the Arabs are the producers, they sell the stuff, and they control prices. Never read so much tosh......anti US claptrap.:\ (I'm British)

[PaulW]

What a simplistic view you have on the world. Lets leave the thread on its intended course please.

[Pstatic]

Of the four people we were in my typerating three of us now has jobs with serious carriers. The fourth is on a linetraining program. Except for one the last three of us were lowtimers. It is my impression that most of the other guys from the TRTO got jobs as well. Ofcourse there are always a few who do not succeed :ugh:
So a shortage of lowtimers?! My airline is taking delivery of atleast one A320 per month. Each time a new aircraft arrives they need 11-12 pilots of combined FO's and CP's. So I guess the times when most airlines could pick and choose from people with a few hundred hours on type are gone. Ofcourse LH, BA etc will probably not be having problems finding pilots with jet or tp experience but it seems like the rest are starting to struggle...

[Ignition Override]

RoyHudd:
True, and large amounts of petroleum are also exported from Venezuela, Nigeria, Russia (to Europe..) and some from Iran and Canada.

Anonumus6:

Or did those countries just now pump their last petroleum? China has quietly been trying to buy certain oil fields in Nigeria, by the way, according to "the Economist" magazine.
The Indian and Chinese economies have both been expanding at a fast rate, requiring much more petroleum, do they not?

As a recent history refresher for the other youngsters out there, maybe a first lesson....the first Arab/OPEC oil embargos (major price increases-known as extortion or Olerpressung) were in '73 and about '77 and these affected many countries.

Many, maybe all of them could have invested much more in alternate fuels (?), long before the Bush admin. came into power (they made their share of major mistakes-but one might also read about Carter {his regime could have helped slow or avoid the changes in the Iranian government} and Clinton...).
This time span includes US Presidents Ford (Rep: 4 years), Carter (Democrat:4), Reagan (Rep:4), Bush Sr. (Rep:4), And President Clinton (Democrat-8 years!).

And by the way, Senator Hillary Clinton :cool:, the US darling (Liebling) of the foreign press, also voted to invade Iraq. She could have voted "no", but made the deliberate decision to vote otherwise.

She shares responsibility for allowing the war to begin.:O

[Denti]

Well, over here there is a real shortage of suitable entrylevel pilots. Suitable in that case of course means you have the required soft skill as well as good airmanship skills and speak the correct languages (fluent german and english). There is of course an even higher demand for experienced guys that can be upgraded onto the left seat. A side-effect of the high demand on pilots is that many flight schools have problems finding enough flight instructors as those that do it as a part time job beside an airline job are often enough not allowed to do it anymore. Reason is that hours as flight instructors count into the yearly 900 blockhour limit.

[Founder]

There is one thing I don't understand, why do lots of companies insist on using the countries native language as their company language. Things would be a lot easier if everyone used English... And it would also train a lot of pilots to get better at English...

[rubik101]

Founder, I think that's called thread drift.
If you take into account the fact that both easy and RYR are taking delivery of one aircraft a month for the next four to five years, you have to ask yourself if they have done the sums regarding pilot recruitment?
RYR will more than double their fleet in the next 5 years......go figure.