"Insufficient training" a factor in Basra Puma crash

[airborne_artist]

Oxford Mail reports coroner's verdict (http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/headlines/display.var.1440122.0.dead_iraq_pilot_insufficient_training. php)

A helicopter pilot from RAF Benson who died in a crash in Iraq had "insufficient training", a coroner has said.


Flt Lt Kristian Gover died while landing his Puma helicopter at Basra airport on July 19, 2004, an inquest at Oxford Coroners' court heard today.


Recording a narrative verdict into the death, Oxford assistant deputy coroner Andrew Walker said: ...""The training of the crew was insufficient to take account of the change in aircraft performance in the operating environment in which they were to fly."

Mr Walker indicated that he would be writing to the Secretary of State for Defence, Des Browne, recommending that flight data recorders are installed in all military helicopters, and that a requirement is made for air traffic control to pass on wind speed to landing craft - and for it to be confirmed back to the control tower before clearance for landing was granted.

[[email protected]]

And what happens when there is no ATC becuase you are landing in a field/desert/LS miles from anywhere (normal operating environment for SH)?

And would a FDR have made any difference to whether or not they missed the wind changing?

Downwind approaches are taught right from basics at Shawbury and every OCU has an advanced transitions package which will normally include downwind work.

Another coroner making judmental comments and recommendations on things he doesn't understand, just like the horse riding issue - let us hope it doesn't provoke another meaningless kneejerk reaction from the MOD like that issue did.

[Tigs2]

Crab
appreciate what you say, but the coroner is correct! Leaving the UK (and said chap was from NI i think - correct me if i am wrong) with minimal training for in Theatre ops is not good enough(i know what i am talking about as i have also done it in the Puma). The guy was hot and high and downwind - end of story, and going out from the UK does not prepare you for that. Pity they got rid of the detachments in Belize! That taught me so much about aircraft performence!

[airborne_artist]

The Oxford Mail article goes on to say "The inquest heard that Flt Lt Gover and his pilot Flt Lt Daniel Brookcor were both experienced helicopter pilots with more than 1,000 flying hours between them."

1,000 hours between two does not amount to a huge amount of experience, surely?

[Tigs2]

Airborne!
Absolutely bloody definitly!! I had to have 1000hrs on the sqn before i was thought competent. We demand too much of our people these days, then we blame them when they fail, rather than when we fail!!

[Mmmmnice]

Unfortunately it's a fiscally-driven fact that there is insufficient pre-det training done in representative environments. I'm an old knacker and I still end up having a 'moment' or two when away in the sand - it's a fact of life! It doesn't matter what you drive - they are all pretty unforgiving at the edges of the envelope. Operating into wind is also a luxury that is not always available.
Either way, the Govt/MOD should put its hand into its pocket and stump up for some pricey, but essential, training - sadly this is unlikely to be a vote-winner

[R 21]

Crab

the oxford coroner also shot some holes in the board of enquiry. The board said it was pilot miss handling of the aircraft but when the president of the board was asked if there was any proof to show mis-handling there was none. The coroner wanted to deal in facts not assumptions like the board did both and both differ quite dramatically.

Kris gone but not forgotten mate.

[jayteeto]

Crab, I recently spent over an hour in the witness box for the Kosovo Puma crash. Andrew Walker was the coroner for that one as well. He grilled the witnesses, however, he is absolutely aware of his personal lack of aviation knowledge. If he didn't understand something, he asked sensible questions and if he made a conclusion, he checked to make sure that his thinking was on the correct lines. He has now covered a large number of inquests from aircraft accidents with no data recorders. He was extremely frustrated at lack of 'facts' and an abundance of 'opinions'. I would guess that his recommendation for recorders is not from this accident alone.
As most of us 'old sweats' know, the Puma has a few vices and can bite when you least expect it. On 33 Sqn, first tourists rarely made authoriser before 2 years experience was gained. Gulf War 1 aircraft captains were nearly all second tourists++, first tourists were co-pilots. We ask a hell of a lot more from these young pilots nowadays. 1000hrs between 2 front enders, throw in hot and high, a real threat and a challenging aircraft = a real need for quality training before deployment. Not ticks in boxes :(
PS. Forget simulators, they will NOT do!!

[vecvechookattack]

PS. Forget simulators, they will NOT do!!

For gawds sake...... take that bit off. Our simul;ator cost Circa £25 million....and your saying it won't do...!

Why won't it do? Is the Puma sim old and crooked? Most flight simulators will accurately simulate Hot, high and heavy and of course in a sim you can change the wind at the press of a button. The Merlin sim is perfect for this type of training....are you saying the 6 Sim set up at Benson (can't remember the name of it )is not doing its job?

[jayteeto]

Sorry fella, but I can't retract that comment. The sim only does what is programmed into it. I spent weeks out in Canada for the set up of the Puma sim. It is fabulous for the INITIAL training of the techniques ie how to do hot and high. You need training in real conditions to actually get it right. This of course is only my opinion, I haven't seen the sims in operation for a few years now. Remember that all the current pilots have done this sim many many times, so there shouldn't be any problems at the front line with lack of training ??????????????

[Unmissable]

1000hrs between 2 front enders, throw in hot and high, a real threat and a challenging aircraft = a real need for quality training before deployment. Not ticks in boxes
PS. Forget simulators, they will NOT do!!

How do you train with a real threat??????
Simulators are better than ever and will do more than most of the posters on this thread realise; however, experience is what's counts and these days and , unfortunatley it has to be gained on ops.

Remember the RAF's most treasured days in the BoB. 6 Hrs to solo and operational after 20 hrs.

Please accept that we will NEVER be perfectly safe or prepared.

All I would ask is that those in charge know they have done their BEST, and those that do, do their BEST, and that nobody who has not done it, ever has the nerve to criticise.

[[email protected]]

So are we saying that the Puma force has a problem with poor supervision and inadequate pre-det trg? That doesn't sound like those in charge doing their best, it sounds like getting the job done whatever the cost as long as the next promotion is guaranteed.

Yes the Puma can bite - I was given the demo once and have never forgotten it even though I don't fly the Puma, how can it not be in the forefront of every pilot's mind. Rule number one, don't do the enemy's job for them.

[BEagle]

Ah, but of course things will improve once the sacred cow of MFTS has taken over all pre-OCU training.....:hmm:

Intrigues to know where they think all their instructors will come from, given that even the civilian world is finding it very difficult to recruit and retain flight instructors against an ever increasing airline recruiting market.

How long now before this whole house of cards collapses?

[6Z3]

BEags, I'm sure you're talking in general terms across the FTS, but in the RW world the process happened back in 97/8 with DHFS. There, an instructor Civ:Mil mix of 40:60 would appear on the surface to be fine, however 10 years down the line your worries are starting to manifest themselves now, with contractors seeking to raise the Civvy QHI retirement age to 65, together with regular revolts among the staff crewrooms for more pay (recognising the impending rarity of suitable civvy Beefers)

[jayteeto]

I have hundreds of Puma instructional hours, so I do have a little bit of credibility when I speak. However they were from 6 years ago, so I am also prepared to admit I am out of date. I never said the supervision was a problem. Can't go into too much detail, but my board of enquiry tried to accuse me of that very thing. I was lucky to have evidence of things I had passed up the chain of command, that nipped this in the bud. In the forces, people are can-do, we all know that. Squadrons do their very very best, WITH WHAT IS AVAILABLE TO THEM. If the sim is better. then great. You don't have to go on ops to get real-time hot and high experience. Belize taught me a hell of a lot, no power, heavy weights etc etc. There are places to train better, we all know that you can never stop all accidents, but please please your airships, get the crews in theatre with more peacetime experience.......

[Spot 4]

but please please your airships, get the crews in theatre with more peacetime experience.......

That would require a pool of pilots/crewmen that simply do not exist. The inexperience level on each sqn was alarming 8 years ago and has deteriated ever since. Furthermore it is a rolling stone that is out of control and beyond recovery this side of a major change in Defence commitments overseas. Accidents such as this will happen again, and every operator knows it.

One factor of simulator training that you will never get away from is that of human mentallity. "It cannot kill me", and a degree of nonchallence at times when it would have in the real world. This is human nature and particulary applicable to the immortal perception of aircrew. In the eighties, a work up for detachments such as Belize was taken quite seriously, and you had to be CR (6mths+) to even be considered. Nowadays DHFS to Afghanistan is months not years. Most cope, frighten themselves, learn, and there are still too few 'old sweats' with tails of daring do and light shades to swing to pass on the life saving gen to the youth.

The military are quite good at tailoring training to try and ensure that repetition does not happen, and I have it from a reliable source the weight/power/wind is emphasised more than ever at basics. They do not need a coroner to order this, it happened immediatley after the accident.
I knew Kris, and his only fault was that he could talk for Britain, otherwise he was an all round pleasant guy, and certainly not one to push the envelope. The front crew were very much peers regarding experience, and I would expect the collective experience to be double that quoted, others may know for certain.

[jayteeto]

I did say they do their best with what they have. My request for more experience on ops meant that more people were needed, I agree 100%

[[email protected]]

So since we seem to agree that the front line experience level is poor and that more pre-det training should be done - what was the point of the Coroners recommendations? FDRs and ATC readback of the wind won't stop inexperience killing people, if he wanted to get something changed why didn't he make more of the training shortfall and try to embarrass the MoD into doing something positive?

[jayteeto]

This is the same coroner who demanded the A-10 'friendly fire' footage be released. He does embarrass the MOD and his recommendations here are a little weak, but they still show the system up. Anything is better than nothing. His track record so far, is very good.
Sadly, I believe it was recently been reported that his services are to be 'terminated' soon. One criticism too many perhaps??