CJ2+ v Citation Bravo

[nouseforaname]

In the market for one of these......

Can anyone enlighten me on cruise speeds and how they compare landing on shorter fields.

I know a C5 ultra used to land at Fairoaks but that was obviously light. Would the Bravo be capable of the same?

Thanks in advance.

TD

[formulaben]

Here are some numbers per AvBuyer.com

Cessna Citation 550 Bravo

Payload with Full Fuel (lbs) 801
Maximum Payload (lbs) 1925
Range - Seats Full (nm) 1290
Maximum Range (nm) 1720
Balance Field Length (feet) 4200
Landing Distance (Factored) (feet) 4650
Max Cruise Speed (ktas) 390
Normal Cruise Speed (ktas) 390
Long Range Cruise Speed (ktas) 343

Cessna CJ2

Payload with Full Fuel (lbs) 668
Maximum Payload (lbs) 1400
Range - Seats Full (nm) 927
Maximum Range (nm) 1530
Balance Field Length (feet) 3900
Landing Distance (Factored) (feet) 4550
Max Cruise Speed (ktas) 407
Normal Cruise Speed (ktas) 407
Long Range Cruise Speed (ktas) 351


A couple points to keep in mind:


The CJ is a Part 23 aircraft, and the Bravo is a Part 25 aircraft; as such, the CJ is Single-Pilot by default, but the Bravo requires a waiver to fly SP.
The CJ does NOT have T/Rs; the Bravo does (optional?).Other than that, they are really comparable. If given the choice, I'd go with the CJ2 due to lower operating costs and benefits of being a Part 23 aircraft.

[Mike Echo]

Two Ultras used to fly in and out of Fairoaks but for interest! it might be worth reading the AAIB accident report on VP-CKM

Google "Cessna 560 Ultra VP-CKM" or
www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_502493.pdf

The other Ultra, G-TTFN, as far as I am aware, never flew in or out with Pax. From memory (which regularly fails) there were times of wind/rain when it could not get in or out. One of the pilots who flew this aircraft visits this forum and may have better info.

Mike Echo

[Chilli Monster]

The CJ is a Part 23 aircraft, and the Bravo is a Part 25 aircraft; as such, the CJ is Single-Pilot by default, but the Bravo requires a waiver to fly SP.

Single pilot waiver is no longer valid in Europe if the aircraft is certificated over 12500lbs / 5700kgs. You need a rated pilot (even if they only hold an SiC rating) in the RHS.

[nouseforaname]

Bravo looks like an older machine actually. CJ2 looks more state of the art.

[PorcoRosso]

As far as I know, CJ3 is above 12500 and still considered SP ...

[lancaster52]

Did you also know that an Ultra crashed at Fairoaks. Ran off the end of the runway so far you could not see the wreckage from the threshold. There was a 550 and a 560 "parked" there for a while. Not "based" there. They were with Falcon Jet aka Alan Mann Group. They were only operated in/out with crew only, minimum fuel, dry runway etc. And a standby car was always parked at Farnborough in case of diversion. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.

[Mike Echo]

See my Post fon the 1 June for a Link to the Ultra Accident. Both the 550, G-CBTU and the 560 Ultra, G-TTFN were based, maintained and hangared at Fairoaks, but, as said, never flew in or out with Pax. Both (although TTFN much later) were on the AOC and had to position for flights.
Mike Echo

[pascualito]

Hello,

The difference between the CJ2 or 2+ and the CJ3 is that the later is certified under Part 23 Commuter (vs 23 for the CJ2 or 2+), which allows single pilot certification for an aircraft over 12'500 lbs. Obviously, there is a maximum weight limit to certify an aircraft under 23 Commuter, but I can't remember it now, too early maybe?

Have fun.

[formulaben]

The "exemption" for the CJ3 is that the commuter category is limited to propellers. Cessna successfully appealed the exclusion of turbofans. (http://www2.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgEX.nsf/0/46fbfe1708fa546a86256ce800595c7e/$FILE/ExCessnaGrant.pdf)


§ 23.3 Airplane categories.

(a) The normal category is limited to airplanes that have a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine or less, a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 pounds or less, and intended for nonacrobatic operation. Nonacrobatic operation includes:
(1) Any maneuver incident to normal flying;
(2) Stalls (except whip stalls); and
(3) Lazy eights, chandelles, and steep turns, in which the angle of bank is not more than 60 degrees.
(b) The utility category is limited to airplanes that have a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine or less, a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 pounds or less, and intended for limited acrobatic operation. Airplanes certificated in the utility category may be used in any of the operations covered under paragraph (a) of this section and in limited acrobatic operations. Limited acrobatic operation includes:
(1) Spins (if approved for the particular type of airplane); and
(2) Lazy eights, chandelles, and steep turns, or similar maneuvers, in which the angle of bank is more than 60 degrees but not more than 90 degrees.
(c) The acrobatic category is limited to airplanes that have a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of nine or less, a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 pounds or less, and intended for use without restrictions, other than those shown to be necessary as a result of required flight tests.
(d) The commuter category is limited to propeller-driven, multiengine airplanes that have a seating configuration, excluding pilot seats, of 19 or less, and a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 19,000 pounds or less. The commuter category operation is limited to any maneuver incident to normal flying, stalls (except whip stalls), and steep turns, in which the angle of bank is not more than 60 degrees.
(e) Except for commuter category, airplanes may be type certificated in more than one category if the requirements of each requested category are met.

[Vanpilot]

Need two pilots under Jar Ops 1.

Single crew is only if your flying private or its a company A/C used to take the top dogs to and from meetings, that type of thing.

Certified Single Pilot but AOC its regulation two fly two crew.

:ok:

[PorcoRosso]

Absolutely Vanpilot
Certified for Single pilot private ops only .. 2 on board under AOC , as is CJ's, 1 & 2 ;)