Flying pay

[blogger]

Well as the grow bags are moaning about food then it's time to raise this issue:

Flying pay why is it a daily rate? Should it not be paid for hours flown?

After all most other rates are based on WHAT YOU DO not a flat rate.

Come on Aircrew spill the beans how many hours do you fly on average per month?

OK the transport boys fly a bit but how about the fighter boys ?

FLYING PAY PAID PER HOUR IS MY CALL.

[RobinXe]

I'd be surprised if anyone bites on such an obvious bait.

Try harder.

[Lara crofts pants]

School harder have at should worked. Rearrange.

[FFP]

Good question Blogger. Pull up a sandbag and let's educate you before you get bitter....

It's a recruitment and retention pay award, not a pay for actual amount of time spent in the sky.

Hours flown are at the mercy of tasking, serviceabilities and Op necessity. Also the 5 mins spent in the hover by your Chinnok pilot picking up troops in Afg is different to the 5 min show of force by GR4's in Telic which is different to the 5 mins (depending on total onload / refuel rate :ok:) spent by the VC10/ Tri* pilot refuelling the fighters which is also different to the 5 minutes spent by the Nimrods on task. I could go on.

What doesn't vary is the skills, talent and fortitude they all display that needs to be retained by HM Forces and so we have Flying Pay.

Saying that though, maybe we should pay people's basic wage hourly and not daily ? That'd scare nearly everyone except those on Ops that do the majority of the work. Not may people earn their daily rate IMO for what they do at their home base.

How's that for an answer ?

[threeputt]

Correct, my young friend although a little one dimentional. When are we going to play g**f?:ok:

3P

[Runaway Gun]

Couldn't have said it better myself Mr FFP. :ok:

[Lara crofts pants]

check spelling o2 thief

[threeputt]

Oh, Bolokch.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Whats really funny blogger is that I don't even get flying pay but as NCA still earn a pot more money than a TG1 WO..............and I haven't flown for 3 months............there's no justice mate is there :p

[mojocvh]

Yeah you're making wayyyyyyy to easy............

[bad livin']

It's called the "worked harder at school" allowance...

[blogger]

Yes as I thought not a single answer on flying hours! Just comments like we the all mighty are better than you. Thats why aircrew are loved so much.

It's not the wages or the money it's attitude of so few doing everythink to put down so many. I have more respect for some of my hard working SAC's than some aircrew.

As for should have tried harder at school I have a degree and my own business (Ltd Company) which is VAT reg (because of the turn over) and I earn a lot more than most aircrew but then I am not up my own ar$e about it so to speak. So thats 2 reasons to be getting out.

See ya on the outside..........days to do!

Any takers on the flying hours or should I request a FOI return to all aircrew in the RAF?

[Lara crofts pants]

Many Aircrew are on non-stop operational flying duties and therefore do not have the time to tally up their flying hours, especially in order to justify their existence to bitter types like yourself.

No doubt you will come back with a "I too have done my time operationally" type of retort. Plenty of time to run your company in your spare time though

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"As for should have tried harder at school I have a degree and my own business (Ltd Company) which is VAT reg (because of the turn over) and I earn a lot more than most aircrew"

Anyone else name the 1975 hit by Supertramp.............got to number 13.............Dreamer :rolleyes:

[Been There...]

The reason why there is no mention of flying hours because it has very little to do with flying pay (other than the title).

The idea behind flying pay is a recruitment and retention initiative. If you PVR you aren't being retained, therefore your flying pay is cut.

Gunners who are getting the retention bonus aren't given a quota for deployments (AFAIUI) but they are leeching like nobodies business and the only way (it seems) to keep them in is to give them more money. If the MOD decided to do away with flying pay, then the aircrew would walk to civvie street, either to fly in the airlines or some other sector or for those who can't pilot, work somewhere else.

The MOD is slowly realising that it needs to pay its staff more to keep them in if they can't sort out all the other push factors, but funny old thing they can't afford to pay the sort of money to keep them in!! :(

[Lara crofts pants]

Just a thought. Your business isn't a fish and chip emporium is it? If not, maybe you should consider starting one - plenty of chips!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Heres a thought Blog, as you are so rich, have only days to do and can happily put your fingers up at the system tell us who you are and where you are at then someone will come on and verify your assertions..................however as most of us who post on here can smell bullsh1t even over the ether I am not holding my breath waiting for your reply..........................:rolleyes:

[blogger]

Seldomfitforpurpose
"As for should have tried harder at school I have a degree and my own business (Ltd Company) which is VAT reg (because of the turn over) and I earn a lot more than most aircrew"

Anyone else name the 1975 hit by Supertramp.............got to number 13.............Dreamer :rolleyes:

Fine you dream and stay in, thats great by me. However, one day you too will be leaving the mob.. I hope you are going to hit the road running aswell..good luck

After all 30 minutes after leaving the gates they don't care about you so spend as much time as you can get planning that exit date and that job/business on the outside your wife and kids need you to do well after all you don't want your kids to join the rAF do you?

[Lara crofts pants]

One assumes that your business does not include teaching English.

[blogger]

Come on guys no takers on the flying hours.............. poor show scared us ground crew will know the truth........or just the papers who watch this forum ????

[Been There...]

FFS Blogger, which part of my post didn't you understand!

[electric.sheep]

Blogger,

Sounds to me as if you are the weakest link .................. goodbye!

[Tourist]

blogger.

I actually do believe you about your business.

Which makes it all the heartbreaking for you, that with all that going for you, you still cannot get over the inferiority complex about aircrew.

I mean, lets be honest, we are all the same really.
Apart from the fact that we are better looking, more charismatic, more attractive to the ladies, more highly paid, more skilled, more highly trained etc, there really is no difference, so lets be friends.:}

[brit bus driver]

Don't really copy your banter. Are you suggesting we should get a salary comparable to that which could be earned outside and then receive sector pay or flight duty pay in addition? Splendid idea! Gets my vote! Thanks for suggesting it....now there's the door; make sure you don't get stuck....those chips protrude somewhat. I guess the £100k didn't tempt you to stay....oh, sorry.

Aircrew are leaving on the current system; sure, let's re-visit the'only pay them when they fly' argument, then see what happens. The Canadians do this (ie no flyingpay on ground tours), but then they pay pilots on a separate (pensionable) scale to others, much the same way as we do our doctors and lawyers.

[electric.sheep]

Do a search of Blogger's contributions to Pprune to see where he's coming from, like this advice to a young WSOp:


Do some PC and carry out a risk assessment.........it's old it fly's you die.

Do the maths look at Iraq young guys die on their first tour.

25 years gone and days to do I am getting out
Not staying like the few

You have a nice girlfriend look after her....

A dead hero or to be alive and enjoy your kids?

It is not worth the risk..........

[blogger]

Seldomfitforpurpose

Heres a thought Blog, as you are so rich, have only days to do and can happily put your fingers up at the system tell us who you are and where you are at then someone will come on and verify your assertions..................however as most of us who post on here can smell bullsh1t even over the ether I am not holding my breath waiting for your reply..........................:rolleyes:

After all I am getting out! Why else would I stay in and give up £38K as a C/T? Lifes too rich on the outside as other folks have said the flying pay is to keep the guys in the airlines pay more. There is more money on the outside just wake up!

So why stay in if I earn more on the outside......... thats why i am getting out 5 years early ... to run my business 24/7 As for giving details out I dont care what you think after all this computer was VAT free and paid for by my business. Do think i care about anythink.............well yes I do giving respect back to the LAC's SAC's Cpl's Sgt's BELOW me who work damn hard.

Good luck .

[Captain Kirk]

I really should know better but what the hell.....

Blogger - your very question indicates your ignorance.

I recall that some years ago a Flt Lt RAF Policeman had a letter published in Airclues along very similar lines. He was appalled at a previous letter in which a pilot lamented the burden of additional duties distracting him from his primary duties at a time when he was putting in 30+ hours a month.

Said Plod was disgusted, citing other officers that worked 30+ hours a WEEK. How we laughed - or would have, had we not held our heads in horror at how someone wearing the same uniform could have so little understanding of OUR core business. We invited Mr Plod to our secret base in Norfolk and he went away mightily impressed, honestly opining that we had 'a PR problem - people don't know how hard you work'.

So here we are again...

For your info - 30+ hours a month is a lot for a FJ sqn pilot. I would cautiously estimate that one sortie (about 1.5 hrs) takes about 5-6 hours from start plan to finish debrief, depending upon mission complexity and whether it is self-generated or exercise tasking. Fly twice = long day and no lunch. AAR leads to longer sorties but not a directly proportional increase to the mission cycle (e.g. 2.5 hrs aloft and a mission cycle of about 7-8 hours) Time alone is not adequate measure though as, if you were fortunate enough to witness it, you would be struck by the intensity of the environment. I have had the opportunity to fly many pax in my time - I advise them not to drive at the end of the day. They ALL go away physically and mentally exhausted and sleep like the dead.

Now let’s consider detachments/ops/exercises. Who do you think handles the administrative and logistical implications? No doubt your firm grasp of reality has a dedicated team parachuting in from STC/SHQ/Never-Never-Land to handle such a burden. Wrong. The Sqn sorts it out from within its existing resources. Which means that a pilot/nav will be detailed to be the Project Officer, who then delegates the myriad of detailed tasks to his colleagues. Without let up in training or tasking.

I am intrigued by your lack of respect for aircrew when you evidently know so little about them. You should, frankly, be ashamed that you have not made it your business to find out – and I mean in far more constructive ways than simply posting inflammatory threads on a public forum. Any Sqn, though busy, would make the effort to accommodate a genuine query relating to OUR core profession.

I am also appalled at my foolishness in responding and can only attribute it to being the end of a long (BH)day of OJARs – I hope the irony is not lost upon you but I fear I am wasting my breath….

[HEDP]

Maybe for the details of how many hours a week you spend on your second income then I could be persuaded to part with my flying hours weekly!

Most folks around where I am are working their @r*e* off just trying to do what needs to be done in the job that the tax payers pay them to do.

[Lara crofts pants]

You placed quite an emphasis on the word "below". What does that say about you? Maybe the need to feel important, or is it a simple demonstration of the inferiority complex you have had regarding aircrew over the last 25 years. Interesting.

[ProfessionalStudent]

I spent from Nov to Mar receiving £40 (roughly that, don't know exactly - it's not important) per day flying pay and did 0, yes, that's zero flying hours.

£5240 ish.

Cheers easy.

But I WAS grounded due to injury. Gained in an Op theatre.

Blogger

Hrs vs pay is irrelevant. It's to do with our (mil) pay vs their (civvy) pay. If we didn't get paid the rates we do, few of us would have joined, fewer still would stay. Other trades get "bounties" too.

Now piss off out of here, take your business with you and stop being so bloody puerile.:*

[XferSymbol]

Can we tempt you to leave early blogger???

I replied to some of the crap you were inciting on the thread dealing with aircrew rationing.

You really are just a wind up merchant eh? :hmm:

Best of luck on the other side though.

[Zhivago]

Yes it would be interesting to see how many hours some aircrew fly!! I know of guys that are always away and work dam hard and others never seem to be at work at all. I agree pay the aircrew by the amount of hours flown. It has always been an issue with the ground trades but I don't think it would be such an issue if it was what it says FLYING PAY.

It is sad to see all this in house fighting lets face it everyone does a job each as important as the next man.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Blog old chap,

38k.........out bed of get would'nt that for............re arrange......... but it does helps me understand why you are leaving :p

[blogger]

Still no takers on the flying hours......... that FOI is going to go in..... watch this space.

Captain Kirk I respect your answer and thank you nice to see someone has roots.

Days to do............

As a last thought 'P&PPPPP' and that goes for civvy street as well plan your exit look after wife and kids.

Good night all see you at work.

07:00

[ProfessionalStudent]

...and I hope your business falls on it's arse...

[blogger]

ProfessionalStudent

...and I hope your business falls on it's arse...

Well thank you! Professionaltudent are you applying for a job in the RAF or just hoping.... Surely past yor bed time.

Grow up big boy (sorry (person)) hope you learn a lot more like respect.

As I have said the last days in work for me is looking after the guys below me to the max........ not the ones above me.

[samuraimatt]

Surely past yor bed time

I think you are past your sell by date. I hope your English is better when you write their assessments.

[grey_not_green]

Just out of interest Blogger....

Which year(s) did you fail at OASC exactly???

[RobinXe]

Crack on with that FOI request champ, make sure you actually read what it says though, since you seem incapable of doing so within this thread, where more than sufficient answers have been given to your query, in between the banter, not to mention disgust at your belligerent and supercilious attitude.

Since you seem to need it dumbing down further; 'Flying Pay' is a name, the pay is for the type of work, rather than the quantity thereof. It is (once more) for recruitment and retention. As a purported businessman, one would have expected you to understand the principle of supply and demand.

[blogger]

Quote:
Surely past yor bed time
I think you are past your sell by date. I hope your English is better when you write their assessments.

Oh so sorry sir almighty ave I put a , insteed of a .

Well once again you all shine as one picking up minor mistakes and not seeing the full picture. Think i will wear odd socks to work and be charged as I once was by an officer when a low life JT. NON STANDARD ISSUE SOCKS. lol get a life and see the real world for once.

Wot next ........ bed packs.... at 06:30..

[Big Bear]

Even though I am not aircrew, I understand and agree why flying pay is paid - unless pay and conditions (and job satisfaction) are comparable with civi street people will leave. Although there are only a finite number of flying jobs in civi street so I doubt everyone would get one.

What I don't agree with is paying peanuts to employ complete muppets in IPTs who continually mess things up and cause massive delays to projects, not to mention the financial waste that occurs. When will the MOD wake up and stop employing incompetant civil serpants who are as easy to get rid of as a dose of herpes and instead employ talented individuals at the same rates as industry. The money and time saved on projects would more than outweigh the costs.

Slightly off thread I know, but I've had a few fighting beers.

[blogger]

Just out of interest Blogger....

Which year(s) did you fail at OASC exactly???


Never lol not of interest to me. Why drop to the bottom of the ladder again.

[brit bus driver]

Actually, you spelt 'your' 'yor'.

Intrigued as to the nature of your business. I do hope it doesn't involve customer service as I fear you are sorely lacking.

[samuraimatt]

Never lol not of interest to me

So why bleat on like a spoilt brat when you weren't interested in the first place. The flying pay issue as so many have said here is a specialist pay that is paid throughout all three services.

The other specialist pay includes

Diving pay
Submarine pay
Nuclear Propulsion pay
Submarine Escape Tank Training pay
Hydro graphic pay
Mountain Leader pay
Parachute pay
High Altitude Parachute pay

For a SNCO you don't appear to be very bright.

[blogger]

Good banter chaps. Nice to see a fighting attitude.

But come on we all know the pay out side is better we are just geting bribes to stay in (this trade that trade each year as things come and go.)

Had a few fighting G and T's here too lol (god and not a zob (G and T what next))

Over the fence is a big world go for it one day you are going to be kicked out make sure you escape on your terms............. look after the wife and kids and those below you in rank. :ok:

[grey_not_green]

Now then, toddle off to bed like the good boy that you are.....after all, you've got many people to look after 'to the max' tomorrow.
Sweet dreams.

Shall I leave a light on so you don't have nightmares about all those nasty pilots types?

[blogger]

brit bus driver

Intrigued as to the nature of your business. I do hope it doesn't involve customer service as I fear you are sorely lacking.

Every business is run on customer service... :ugh: and some of us don't need to advertise word of mouth ...is all you need and a little bit of time... happy days.

[samuraimatt]

and some of us don't need to advertise word of mouth

What is that supposed to mean? How do you advertise then?

[grey_not_green]

'not a pilot'

Damn, sorry, I could only get it into 3 words....

[blogger]

Looking forward to your FOI return....SIR.

FOI act your dream come true only costs a second class stamp (or could have put that a (ground crew stamp.))

[samuraimatt]

FOI act your dream come true only costs a second class stamp (or could have put that a (ground crew stamp.))

What? You do realise that drug taking is frowned upon in the Armed Forces.

[brit bus driver]

FOI requests cap at £600 per request. That is, if the time taken to answer it equates to more than £660 worth of 'company time' you may reject it. That doesn't buy you a lot of aircrew time now does it?:hmm:

[blogger]

samuraimattQuote:
FOI act your dream come true only costs a second class stamp (or could have put that a (ground crew stamp.))
What? You do realise that drug taking is frowned upon in the Armed Forces.

Like i have never seen a pi$$ed up Pilot taxi to the end of the runway then come back saying smell of smoke in the cockpit cant fly ...........Grow up....

[ShyTorque]

blogger,

If YOU were putting in so many hours and working so hard in the mob as you think others should, how come you had enough spare time and energy to run your own business? I take it this wasn't done in the Queen's time.......

[londonmet]

Blogger,

You're a disrespectful arsehole.

L Met

[FFP]

It seems to be all about the hours for Blogger....

How many hours would you like each pilot to fly before receiving a day's rate of FP ?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Strikes me this Blogger fellow is a prime target for some kind of temptation from Johnny Foreigner... Disaffection or something? Any scruffers about?

Well, my solution is to clap him in irons until he cheers up a little, because he's clearly a grumpy old git!

[Wrathmonk]

Blogger

Honest question - who looks after your business whilst you are out of area or on detachment (or, god forbid, holiday)? All the business gurus will tell you that it takes considerable effort to build a ltd company up to having a turnover sufficient to be VAT registered without substantial effort 365 days a year (and doing this after a full day in HMs employ as well, together with your fair share of detachments and out of area stints.....).

W

[ProfessionalStudent]

blogger

hope you learn a lot more like respect.

I've earned plenty of respect throughout my career, thank you. Both as a SNCO and as an officer.

And despite your crowings about just how good you are, 22 years and still only a C/T? You can't be THAT good can you? Or you'd be a WO or commissioned.

And I still hope your business dies on it's arse.

But I suppose you could always auction your QGJM and LSGCM on eBay to keep it afloat.:E

The RAF doesn't need dinosaurs like you any more. If you've had time to run up a VAT registered Ltd Co, then you're worth even less to the RAF than your ill-educated and vitriolic posts suggest. Do remember to let us know when it's your last day. We could all raise our glasses and drink to the passing of another old-school whinging, bigotted dinosaur who give groundcrew a bad name. Unless of course, we're on Ops.

And Ops aren't just something you have in hospitals.

[Saintsman]

I wonder how many fast jet types joined up because they were going to get flying pay? I imagine that salary was the last thing in their mind.

Aircrew should be rewarded for the role they are in with an appropriate salary. Flying pay appears to be a bonus just for carrying out their job.

[TonkaEngO]

Gents,
Suspect Blogger is on a fishing trip here - rest assured that the vast majority of us fully understand the fg pay issue. There is no real lack of respect etc for aircrew (at least in the GR4 world) generically - apart from the odd arse that would be disliked no matter what he did for a living! But, some of us did work hard at school and made the choice to work on ac rather than fly them - and would not swap even if given the option.

[jollygreenfunmachine]

I can't believe we have given this clown so much air time (if you'll pardon the pun.) This guy must fish for the tri-services! Everyone with an ounce of sense knows the reasons for flying pay. The guy is all that's wrong with parts of the RAF nowadays, the sooner people like him toddle off to civvy street the better.
By the way mate i did 35 hours this month. For every hour flown i estimate a further 3 for planning, pre flight instruction, briefing, de-briefing and report writing. In addition to that, i like everyone else has squadron additional duties (i currently have 4) and Station duties (currently 2) to keep me busy. I'm in at 7.30 and leave about 5.30. Oh and unlike the rest of the unit, we don't shut down for an hour at lunch!
Crap, have i just bitten as well?
Oh one last thing, if i'd joined for the money, with or without flying pay, i'd be in the wrong job. Some of us actually joined to make a difference and do a job that we and our families are proud of. People like you Mr Blogger, who come on here and spout your poison against any trade group because of your bitterness and ignorance, quite frankly do a disservice to the vast majority of decent, hard working people in the the whole of the armed forces.
Please now muster up whatever dignity you can and toddle off to civvy street.
Mini rant over.

[airborne_artist]

Blogger - FYI the VAT turnover threshold is £61,000, so while you may earn a decent %ge of that, by the time you've covered pension, healthcare and other benefits you'll be struggling....

I flew 44 hours one month while on EFTS - how does that sound? In my green phase I got para pay every day, but I didn't jump out of a plane more than four times a year except one year.

And now I have a business.....more than most aircrew.....zzzzzzzzzz :E

[Mr C Hinecap]

Captain Kirk. You are on very strong drugs if you think a Sqn Proj O adds anything at all to a deployment / exercise. You'll find your UMO & the Stn Movers do it all.

[Quinag]

Blogger

As a mere dependent, I am, yet again, amazed that someone who 'works' in the same organisation, namely the Royal AIR Force, as of one of those aircrew Johnnies you so despise has so little comprehension of what they do and how hard they work. This is quite apart from your lack of understanding of flying pay.

My husband generally works a 10-hour day and that does not include the work he brings home to do, more often than not working until late into the night. He certainly does not have the spare time to run a business. In fact it would be nice if he had some spare time to spend with his family.

I also struggle to understand how you come to be so bitter towards aircrew. The aircrew cadre is generally made up of the most self-deprecating, unpretentious and good humoured bunch of highly intelligent, highly motivated, hard working and, perhaps most pertinent to this discussion, highly trained people you could find. Yes, they are confident but they have to be in order to do what they do. They are also, thankfully, quite free from the huge chip that you struggle to carry on your shoulder every day you go to 'work'.

[jollygreenfunmachine]

Captain Kirk. You are on very strong drugs if you think a Sqn Proj O adds anything at all to a deployment / exercise. You'll find your UMO & the Stn Movers do it all.

Mr C Hinecap. Is that so. Could you please direct me to the movers at Odiham? Seems we've missed something there for the last gazzillion ops/dets we've been on!

[10enggone]

Ah yes the movers do it all!!

Drive into planes, a VC10 is so hard to see must be the colour and then a 747, must have been the wind that blighted their eyesight causing so many people to be delayed in MPA.

Lost and damaged suitcases, delayed flights, equipment not tuning up on ops........... yes the movers make all the difference

[just another jocky]

...they really come into their own when they get you to put your hold luggage in the night before departure and still get you to report 3 hours before take-off and then give you a hard time for having too heavy a flight bag (that's because it's carrying the change of clothes and my washing kit you forced me to keep because you made me give you my suitcase last night!)...:ugh:

Sorry, thread creep...:E

[mojocvh]

..........In my honest opinion the sqn UCO's have the highest PEAK workloads in the run up to and recovery from det's (beentheredonethatetc) as well as having their primary engineering duties to carry out.

However sitting in the PBF as Sengos buffer (LOL) was a real eye opener, the problem was that on the sqn the guys were not aware of what was involved. A program was initiated to bring the guys in and let them see what was actually went on, even some of the most "hardend" lineys did gain a grudging respect, most realised that it wasn't all "tea and medals" and appreciated the opportunity to see the other half. The result was a much happier sqn that pulled together more.

And the embittered dinosaurs were even more isolated, which was a bonus, apart from the fact thay they held sway over our progression :sad::sad:

MoJo

[ShyTorque]

Mr. C. Hinecap "You'll find your UMO & the Stn Movers do it all."

Yes, the UMO does do it - but as an SH pilot I had that job as a secondary duty.... and what are these "movers" of which you speak?

[Al_Paché]

Blogger - having recently returned from four months away on Ops, I have to say that I find your attitude very sad.

Myself and my colleagues came under contact on most flying days and I for one can say that I most certainly earned my flying pay tens times over (as did your RAF brethren (front and rear) flying Chinooks into some very dangerous locations).
You do yourself and them a complete dis-service. It isn't all about retention. I also acknowledge with the greatest respect the contribution made by those that enable us to earn our flying pay - I very much doubt that you represent them.

What will you say when your children ask what you did in the 'war'..? You certainly won't be able to say that you were a 'team player'

[toddbabe]

Whats really funny blogger is that I don't even get flying pay but as NCA still earn a pot more money than a TG1 WO..............and I haven't flown for 3 months............there's no justice mate is there

How do you work that out then? Your obviously on PAS which is effectively flying pay by a different name:hmm:

[BluntedAtBirth]

Is it me or is trolling getting easier these days. Just type in flying pay or aircrew rations and watch the bandwidth fill up. Now in the old days, you had to pick something imaginative, like the aircrew leather jacket. Why I remember when....:zzz:

[danieloakworth]

What a bizarre bloke. Why make such a big fuss about being VAT registered and the perks that entails. I'm ex-aircrew and now run my own company. Of course I'm VAT Registered, the threshold is so low that only low paid toilet cleaners wouldn't be (maybe Blogger is Cesspit Sid). As for the perks (VAT free computers etc)bloody hell mate if that's the best perk you've got from running your own business then you're doing something very seriously wrong.

Maybe the problem is that you never really learned that genuine hard work brings serious rewards. Those 9-5 days still a killer are they fella?

[samuraimatt]

Your obviously on PAS which is effectively flying pay by a different name

No not really as they don't receive flying pay, only a daily rate of pay. Flying pay being a specialist pay to do with retention against an equal civilian job could be removed at any time. PAS could be stopped but those already on it would not go back to PAY2000.

[MLT]

Is flying pay really for retention???? I was under the impression it was there to cover additional costs for things such as enhanced life insurance etc.?????

[Truckkie]

Oh dear - Over £40 per day flying pay and free rations when completing my primary duty of operating a large aircraft in hostile enviroments.

I actually love the job and the people I work with but this, and the aircrew ration thread, have made me realise how little respect the vast majority of non-aircrew types actually have for the flying branches.

It saddens me when I think of all the good times I used to have that are now being eroded through petty arguments.

Aircrew get free rations when flying - deal with it.
Aircrew get flying pay, per day - deal with it.

To all those people in the RAF bleating about the above - have a hard think about your loyalties. You are all in a job to support aircraft flown by aircrew. With the current op tempo added to the moaning and winging from non-aircrew types you really should start looking for other employment because at current exit versus recruitment rates the RAF will be 800 frontline pilots short by 2012.

Not enough aircrew=less flying=less airframes required=less support personnel.

Just grow up and stop bleating - or if you can't then just f**k off and stop dragging this once-proud service through the mud.

[ZH875]

but this, and the aircrew ration thread, have made me realise how little respect the vast majority of non-aircrew types actually have for the flying branches.

Aircrew get free rations when flying - deal with it.
Aircrew get flying pay, per day - deal with it.

Just grow up and stop bleating - or if you can't then just f**k off and stop dragging this once-proud service through the mud.

Well, having read this load of :mad:, I think that Trukkie has it the wrong way round.

I think it should read: "have made me realise how little respect the vast majority of aircrew types actually have for the non-flying branches.":ok:


It is a good job we will be 800 front line pilots short by 2012, as we haven't enough aircraft for them to fly in, and we cannot afford their free food etc etc.

Maybe, in 2012, aircrew will earn their flying pay (or be selected for PAS), for actually flying, lets take all those desk bound pilots and strap their backside to a Martin Baker in an aeroplane (Or just a seat in the imaginary A400M), and fill their empty desks with Engineers.

We may even get better specified aircraft for the very cleverer did lots betterer at skool, and well balanced (chip on both budgie wings) type chaps & chappesses to fly around the sky in.

Hand grenade lobbed, and I am running as fast as my legs will carry me.:)

[Fox_4]

Blogger you minion - Would you like a loan?

I cant seem to get to my ferrari through all these used £20s.

[XferSymbol]

ZH......

WTF do you know about hand grenades?????

Ithought you wore blue and lived behind the wire protected by the green troops who earn their money.

Or are you Walter Mitty in disguise?

Now come on, come back with some war stories you REMF.

[ZH875]

XS, I do wear blue, but live behind the wire protected by aircrew's butty boxes, more stuffing than the average sand bag.

The only war stories worth mentioning is that of Tullbahadur Pun VC, or more recently Johnson Beharry VC :D:D:D:D

We cannot compete with those, so lets not pretend.

[Phoney Tony]

Air crew rations memories:

The most expensive...........Provided by Gulf Air.

The best.............Honkers at 0400 at 20W.

The worst.......Fischk Balls in gravy......3rd wet thought they were potatoes.
SORRY CHANGED MY MIND .......SOMETHING IN A BOX ON A HERC.

The most food in one day......Lunch.....scrambled on SAR ate 8 hours of rations in 3.5 hours..........Land.......Dinner........Duty supper.....Breakfast. All free of course.

[Captain Kirk]

Oh dear...and I thought you usually made sense ZH875.

Aircrew on ground tours are there for the 'Service Need' - believe me, they would not be there by choice. Their roles need an 'air perspective' that cannot be provided by other branches or, er, they would be - especially since the capitation rate would be less - which is rather the point of this tedious thread. So, given a little logical thought, it should be obvious that you are paying aviators for their specialist knowledge and skills, irrespective of whether that is on the ground or in the air.

I agree with Truckkie - I find it alarming that some harbour such contempt towards the 'point of the spear'. This is the Royal AIR Force after all.

The 'spear' is a good analogy because without a solid shaft behind the tip (ooh er, etc) then it is useless. Hence, mutual respect is the order of the day - or should be.

In my (quite considerable) experience, aircrew are the most self-deprecating bunch of dedicated and competent professionals you could ever have the good fortune to work with. That is not an exclusive statement. Unfortunately, there are evidently some who enjoy clinging to their prejudice.

The case has been made – those that continue to snipe either cannot understand it or positively wish to remain ignorant. Can I suggest that we let this thread wither on the vine?

[Mr Teatime]

ZH875,
I agree. Get me out of this ground tour and send me back into the cockpit. Smiles all round from me.:) Thata what I'm paid for and would love to do, again.

[danieloakworth]

ZH, you also forget that many aircrew blokes also have engineering degrees. So when it comes to the right man to spec new equipment, why not go for somebody who not only understands the technology but also it's applicability and practicality (or not).

[Spiro]

Blogger,

Flying pay is all about retention.

To illustrate, i am a 2gp pilot on 47k a year(level 8 flt lt/mid rate flying pay)
Equiv civvie job doing same job/less time away/more days off - 75-80k a year. Why do i stay - because to me the good bits still outweigh the bad.

Take fly pay away or relate it to hours flown = goodbye RAF, Hello airlines.
Airlines are very bouyant at the mo which is forecast to remain the same for at least the next 5 years.

Long and the short, I and the rest of us (aircrew as a whole) are bloody good value for money when you consider all the other crap we put up with as well as flying into the assorted crapholes on bliars world crusade.

This is in no way ment as a dig at you blogs - just saying how it is

Fact. End.

[bwfg3]

cutting through the c**p spouted. Aircrew get flying pay because its part of the deal... want some of it? Apply. In my opinion the deal needs to improve and quickly, cos skilled operators are walking :*

P.S Bl00dy well said Spiro

[ShyTorque]

No one else noticed that blogger has blogged off?

He is hiding, probably fighting with his conscience about running a business allegedly turning over more than £60/yr in the Queen's time. Whilst complaining about others legally and fairly on an extra few quid a day for flying pay.

:rolleyes:

I think it's a deliberate wind up, chaps.

[Whirlygig]

more than £60/yr in the Queen's time

Gosh, that's more than tuppence an hour - he can't be be a pilot then!

Cheers

Whirls

[brit bus driver]

Spiro - how on earth do you get by on that.... :E
incoming.....

[Mmmmnice]

Back in the days when I got flying pay I did manage to calculate an hourly rate - one month I got £1000 for a half hour start/stop (and one whole cct) so that must have been.......let me see.......need more fingers.......£2000 per hour. What tremendous value for money I was; even then........

[ShyTorque]

quote: "Gosh, that's more than tuppence an hour - he can't be be a pilot then!
Cheers
Whirls."

Touche, Pussycat!
(Yep - I missed the 'k' out, just as bad as extra 'n' in.)

And definitely not an accountant, either! ;)

[BootFlap]

Look at the latest Chinook news and then tell me we shouldn't get flying pay. Seriously, try it and then wait whilst I send you a PM with a lot of words that sound like you clucking funt. Now why don't you all get back in your boxes and do your own f@@king jobs.
(Stand by for edit when I calm down, but don't hold your breath).

[Old Ned]

God Bless you all.:ok::ok: I haven't laughed at such sniping for yonks. We engineers used to say: "Flying can't be too difficult, if it was pilots wouldn't be able to do it". Nobody mentioned the ladies flying FJs either (or if they did my rheumy old eyes missed it).

Thanks for making Old Ned smile.:):)

Seriously Folks, you aircrew are certainly earning your flying pay good luck to you all. However, the question of flying pay on non-flying tours is interesting - perhaps a reduced rate might be in order.........?

We engineers used to get 7/6d per day Tech Qual Pay (38p for the youngsters), but it was stopped as a saving measure!!

(Bait floated, now feet up with cold beer waiting for a bite););)

(I just lurve these smilies)

[XferSymbol]

Funny enough Shytorque, the long-haired winco and I were saying the same thing when we read it.

Lets hope the taxman doesn't have a pprune login eh???

[BootFlap]

Old Ned, your tone suggests you are a nice bloke, so in the midst of my rage I will try and give you a straight answer.

Having done a non-flying but flying related tour I would have been p!ssed off in the extreme if my pay had been cut for doing a ground tour that I didn't really want to do, but that someone had to. I was lucky (!) enough to get posted into the job because I had worked hard and had all the quals you could get in my branch. So, the poster needed the job done, I fitted the bill and (shush, don't tell anyone) but I realised I might be able to do some good. Now, if the poster had told me, 'well done BootFlap, you have been selected to fill this post that also means, and you'll like this, you take a pay cut.......' the GPTN line may have mysteriously cut off to the ethereal sound of a gently exploding pilot extolling the virtues of PMA desk officers getting 'down and dirty' with their own arses! (For the colour blind, that's telling them to go and f@@k themselves!) Therefore, if you want experienced aircrew in these posts (and from experience, the presence of a friendly aircrew mate can save time and effort on many peoples parts) you cannot penalise them. If you do, they simply will not come! Therefore, some poor engineer will be stitched with doing an aircrew job. Now you may initially think, 'fantastic, not a snag'. However, I would argue this is akin to having an aircrew mate do the Eng Ops or Line Controller job, after all it is not actually engineering, is it? Or maybe, just maybe, the experience gained through training and hard work, in all trades/branches, means that all have something to offer, and the combined efforts make for a better result.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Now then, Flying Pay! Sorry, but this is market forces in its purest form. A short search on t'internet will give rough salary scales for any job out there. If you were brash enough to equate OC Supply to an Argos Store Manager (I know, i know, Argos actually delivers!) it will give you a rough idea of an equivalent wage outside. I will not give any more examples, because only you know your true worth (mine's 2 Magners and a knee trembler behind a 197x Viva E Coupe, but that's a different story!), but trust me the airlines and BAE are paying well. I don't want to leave, but after 21 years of near continual Ops my family wants cash! I will be sad if I do leave (still undecided) but I will not be bitter; I only wish others would accept the Force for what it is, and more importantly, what it should be, just a 'chuffing big Sqn'. Look after each other, accept we are different, get down the pub when able, tell jokes about non-PC birds with bad arthritis and get on with it.

Rant over, if I offend, I apologise. It's been a bad night.

[XferSymbol]

If nothing else BootFlap, you've made me chuckle.

In agreement, smiling wide (but a little worried about the choice of vehicle for your knee-trembler.....have you considered Morris Marina at all?)

:ok:

[ZOFO]

Hmm,

Rewards for training received, Bit like my Trade group 11 LAC's SAC's going away for 10 weeks Trade Training to Trade Group 4 (or on benefits!), Be it at public/their own expense (after Jul), and guess what then receiving no pay incentive/increase at all, it would seem we are all being shafted by the beancounters. (Look at the PVR Rates at the Mo)

I am afraid that the RAF/ARMY/NAVY is on the rocky road to no where with all this in house Playground "My dad is bigger than your dad stuff"

Lets Just get on with what we have to do, and bring back the if you have done the course and got the Q annotation then lets pay you for it.

[BootFlap]

ZoFo,
in fairness I accept that your Dad is probably bigger than my dad (considering mine was reduced to his constituent parts by a 3000 deg C furnace several years ago and is now played for by my children bi-annually in a 'quick-cricket' tournament on the road outside my house, to the amusement of my US/AUS friends when I tell them 'the Ashes' are back in the UK!).
Also, with you on paying for Q-annotations! Hands up all QFIs and QWIs who'd agree to that!!!!!!!!!!! 'Two's in!'
:ok:
XFer, I always found the Viva to be surprisingly accomodating! The Marina was a little too bulky around the beam, but the Hillman Imp was without doubt a cheeky little number!

[EODFelix]

17.21 Civilian Flight Observer's Allowance
An allowance for each hour in the air is to be paid to officers who are required to fly in an aircraft for the purpose of carrying out a particular task connected with the testing or trials of experimental, new, modified and repaired aircraft or equipment.

To receive the allowance an officer must be designated a Civilian Flight
Observer by the Head of Establishment or an officer not below Band C1 level or equivalent acting with his or her authority.

Positioning flights for the purpose of conducting tests from another airfield or site do not qualify for the allowance unless tests are carried out during such flights.

Prior approval of the Head of Establishment or the officer acting on his behalf is required for each flight or series of flights. The allowance will not be paid unless the flight clearly involves the performance of duties under difficult and exacting conditions, entailing a measure of increased personal responsibility.

Claims are to be submitted monthly to the paying officer on PPA Form 1941. The Certificate on the form is to be signed by an officer superior in rank to the claimant. The flying times for the month are to be aggregated and fractions of an hour paid as a full hour, e.g.. 12 flights with an aggregate flying time of eight hours and ten minutes count as nine hours.

The allowance may also be paid to members of the Photographer specialism
designated Civilian Flight Observers when engaged on flying duties involving
special features and extra personal responsibilities.

[Dan Winterland]

The official line used to be that FP was paid to keep military aircrew pay in line with their civilian counterparts. If that's the case, why isn't it much more?










PS. I didn't work very hard at school at all. I became a pilot through natural ability! :ok:

[Saintsman]

Look at the latest Chinook news and then tell me we shouldn't get flying pay.

If you are saying that you should get flying pay because its dangerous, then I think that might piss off those on the ground who are getting shot at and mortared on a daily basis.

[Old Ned]

BootFlap,

No offence taken at all. I was merely trying to lighten up the snorting. It is a fact of life, FP will always be paid, just as there'll always be the grumblers. The RAF is there to fly aircraft and we are (or in my case were) behind you guys and gels all the way.

By the way, thanks for biting!:D:D:D:D

Old Ned

[Spiro]

@brit bus driver
How do i survive on 47k a year....simple, the missus earns way more than i do!!:}

[brit bus driver]

Aaaahhhh.....wise words fella. :ok:

[blogger]

Well some nice comments on here I have come back too: Sorry I have been bidding for a contract and had to burn the midnight oil the last few days ..but good news I won the contract. It will keep me busy and the guy I employ, for many weeks to come.

So back to a few facts.

The VAT threashold is not £61K it's £64K if you were in business you would be aware of this.

£64K is a turnover (not Profit) line that makes a business become VAT registered. And fact I am well well above this in my my present floating 12 month period.

I find it sad that folks want to put someone down who has completed 25 years service (Gulf 2X etc). The fact that yes I am getting out I require to hit the road running not stall at the gate of the station on the way out like so many (god if I was sad I could always join an IPT as a civvy.)

After all is not the resettlement period 2 years .....Come on guys after 25 years return of service a few slack days at the end is not too much to ask for is it. Your turn will come.

As for running a business in the Queens time ..what the butt does that mean... I do my time at work and spend the spare time I do get preparing for getting out (thats dinner hour included (Moan I dont get a lunch break (its your right))) and every minute at home I get spare I work hard.

As a last comment on this subject one day you too will be either:
Kicked out of the RAF;
Your conscience will bring you to realise that Balirs wars are wrong;
You will be injured;
Or you choose to leave.

Just make sure that exit is is well planned because you are nobody the day you leave you make your own destiny and income in this world.

As for flying pay great you can keep it but how about changing it to represent the theatre of op's (danger pay if you like). Or the more you fly the more pay you get? Well that won't go down well I guess flying a desk is so much harder. However all I know is that right now I cant get out of the RAF soon enough its not the company I joined 25 years ago.

Good luck to you all on the inside and outside of the fence (when you jump it.)

[blogger]

Fox_4 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=45950) vbmenu_register("postmenu_3318259", true);

Blogger you minion - Would you like a loan?

I cant seem to get to my ferrari through all these used £20s. :{


As if ..... in your wet dreams........ See you at the show room and by the way it's going that could be quite soon. Enjoy.

[Over_Shoot]

Blogger...

http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x219/WhatLarks2007/lastweek.jpg

I do believe, and I don't think I will be alone here, that you are talking complete bo!!ocks. Many of the points you raise in your post have already been addressed in a mature and constructive manner.

Please take note.

OS

[anotherchopride?!]

Where do I start?! Well, thanks Blogger for pointing out the massive difference in VAT thresholds. 3 whole thousand pounds....what's that, 20% of the top rate of flying pay?

Whoops, I mentioned flying pay, when this thread is clearly about your excellent business acumen and multiple-employee business. Well, multiple being two employees. Including yourself. Alan Sugar and Richard Branson won't be sleeping well tonight...

As for flying pay, yes I've reverted back to that subject; I remember a fishhead (that is, surface fleet, not RN aircrew)once telling me that aircrew don't get paid more, they just get paid quicker. Shows that the "ground" crew in the RN know the reason for flying pay, maybe our dear friend/ entrepreneur Blogger could benefit from a chat with them....or maybe not cos he is obviously a complete CU Next Tuesday...

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

As blagger is soon to leave the service and states he is quite happy to thumb his nose at the system I asked him in a previous post tell us his name so that we could verify his rather waltish claims and then stand in awe of his obvious business prowess...........

It came as no big surprise to me that no name came forth....... does anyone else smell bullsh1t:rolleyes:

[ShyTorque]

Quote: As a last comment on this subject one day you too will be either:
Kicked out of the RAF;
Your conscience will bring you to realise that Balirs wars are wrong;
You will be injured;
Or you choose to leave.

You have missed option five.

Welcome to the real world outside, where flying pay isn't an issue.

BTW, what was your initial point? Looks like you are just aiming to create a bit more disgruntlement for those staying in.

[samuraimatt]

Your conscience will bring you to realise that Balirs wars are wrongWho on earth is Balirs? Do you mean Tony Blair? Or maybe you were referring to Hazel Blears?

[uncle peter]

Gentlemen, enough of the pi##ing competition.

How about putting similar effort in supporting something more useful such as the issue of Gurkha Tulbahadur Pun VC.

This flying pay thread shouldn't have got past the first few posts. Mods??:ugh:

[samuraimatt]

Hello, the fun police have arrived.

[OHP 15M]

Blogger,

I'm aircrew and here's my reply to your original post:
Flying pay why is it a daily rate? Should it not be paid for hours flown?YES, it should be paid for hours flown ... happy ? Now pi$$ off you moron :ok:

ALL,

Please let this be the last entry on this post, cheers.

[samuraimatt]

Please let this be the last entry on this postWhy should you get the last word, you've only just joined.

[buoy15]

Blogger
Should you really be on this thread without supervision and not taking your medication?
By the way, what is your mental age? If it's about 12, all is forgiven - now off to bed, there's a good boy - see you in the moaning!

[Hong Kong Fuey]

Please let this be the last entry on this post
Why should you get the last word, you've only just joined.
Can I have the last word, instead? Oh please.
HKF

[OHP 15M]

In a Geordie (Big Brother) accent, .... "Day 4, 1023 PM and blogger is still talking sh1te"

Samuraimatt,

My 2nd (vain) attempt to have the last word on this thread :)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Keep on trying............and it will always be in vein :E

[Blakey875]

Just read the thread - Seldom, Aha! You've changed your handle and been posted then? Still have the same venomous tone though....

[toddbabe]

Anyone know why Nockers get less flying pay than O's?, it can't be the difference in jobs cos Nav's Aeo's and pilots all get the same don't they? and they are vastly different jobs.
How about we all get the same? cos we are all in the same plane at the same time.

[R 21]

Viz
I think thats what TB is saying DOH !!!:\

[FFP]

Something to do with the relative costs of brown sauce / red sauce ;)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

You are paid what you are worth blondebabe, it's as simple as that and doing the green eyed monster thing because someone else gets more is unhealthy so learn to deal with it dearie :rolleyes:

[c130jbloke]

Blondebabe:

How about we all get the same? cos we are all in the same plane at the same time.

Get real ! That is almost as stupid a post as the idiot who started this thread. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

C130JB

[Echo 5]

Got to page 4 before someone mentioned Movers. Nothing said about their
Flying/Crew pay tho. How refreshing that someone else is getting stick for a change. :)

[c130jbloke]

I did think about it, but this thread is too cr@p even for that !!!!!!!!!
(thinking "why then, did I even post" as he walks away from his PC..........)

[samuraimatt]

Nothing said about their
Flying/Crew pay tho

Flying pay? Movers don't get flying pay:ugh:. That's because they are not Aircrew.

[Echo 5]

Samuraipratt,

Read the post again........carefully.:=

Finished your homework yet ?

[wokkameister]

Samaurai Matt - Nice to see your still a knob!

Blogger - Words fail me. I find it sad that you can raise this debate whilst many aircrew are under fire on a daily basis, and you are in bluntyville running your business, poisoning young minds, all in the blanket of safety we provide. You are indicative of the sad, bitter and twisted mess commandos I have met over the years, and if we ever meet, I will put you on your arse.

As for your original question, it has been answered by far more eloquent people than me....so sod off.

WM

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Deliverance, I head a rumour from the (former) halls of power at Innsworth that such a change was being pressed for....

[toddbabe]

C130 geezer I fear that you have misunderstood me! I am not in favour of all aircrew getting same basic rate, Pilots should get more than Aeo's and more than nockers but was refering to flying pay.
The Stick jockeys at the front could be on x ammount for being A officers and B Pilots followed by a standard flying pay rate, Your Wsop down the back could be on his x ammount for being a Sgt And Wsop along with the SAME Flying rate as the pilot.
This Way you could still lord it up about your superior monetary worth but be on an equal footing for additional pay.
Does anyone know if Submariners pay rates vary between Commisioned and none Commisioned? Or Parachute pay or Special forces pay?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Toddbabe,

A more pertinent question would be to ask if AAC flying pay varies between Officer Pilot and NCO pilot?

The issue is that flying pay is there to retain, and being GD(P) as opposed GD(N) (or whatever they are these days) is a more transferable skill to an outside market where rates of pay are significantly higher. Thus retention on the pilot side (on a purely monetary basis, excluding the millions of other push/pull factors) is a harder job.

[c130jbloke]

Toddbarbie,
Aah now I understand !
Yup, love that idea especially as a) ruperts would get lots of wonga and b) it counts towards the pension.....
I still maintain that blogger is an @rse, but you are well and truely correct and I salute your inspried idea. :ok::ok::ok:
C130JB
AAC NCOs & NCA please do not get narked - its just a (highly biased) opinion.

[Gnd]

Blogger, C130 (old useless type) bloke, etc.......

Please put this thread at the top of the agenda. If no flying pay then no pilots. If no pilots, the bitter and twisted people would have no job and the forces would be in real trouble (especially the RAF) - oh they are! Well done you petty types have won.
Glad I don't have to put up with this stuff at work too!! Pity the real people here feed these gimps.

[c130jbloke]

Gnd,

Try reading my last again, especiallay the bit which included "opinion" and "bias"...

PS: Get your facts straight before you have a pop !

C130JB

[Gnd]

No, you perpetuate this rant - silence is that only option unless you want to take heat. Petty backstabbing and perpetual nibbling is the reason behind the state we ALL are in at the moment. You just fuel this ever increasing despondency along with some (possibly worse than you) fools! Why - focus on the positives and leave the denigrating of our forces to the Gov, they are doing very well without you and I. If you wish to have a go - please do - I have no axe to grind so take great pleasure in slapping down petty minded and blinkered posters. I really hope you do not fall into this cat. :*

[c130jbloke]

No problems with either rants or heat - as long as it is factually correct ( C-130J, old & useless, please...)
I am midway through a BBQ, so trying to understand the deeper meaning of your last is way past my abilities now. But one thing I did get clear was your depth of feeling for my suggesting ( oh no !) that somebody should get a better deal !
As I said fella, BIASED OPINION !
Now calm down

[OHP 15M]

Blogger,

YES, it should be paid for hours flown ...

Thought I better clarify my earlier statement for the benefit of my aircrew brothers who may have thought that I was agreeing with you. Considering my total flying hours for last year against my salary, flying pay should be paid at a rate of £16,283 per hour flown.

So I'm PAS, currently in a flying-related desk job and only flew 3 hours last year ... ker ching :ok:. Its difficult to spend 37 years constantly flying without a break ... arms get awfully tired you see !

P.S, SAMURAIMATT this could be last post on this thread :E.

[countdeblades]

P.S, SAMURAIMATT this could be last post on this thread :E.


Or maybe it won't!!:}

[heights good]

Flying hours from 1-6 Jun 07 - 16hrs and all local training. Last time OOA I logged 60hrs in a month. Next deployment i will expect around 75hrs per month due to slight change in job and aircraft performance.

Incidentally if this rate was kept up then I would not actually be allowed to fly for the last 2 months of the year due to JHC flying regulations which cap the amount of hours aircrew can fly. I wonder why they do that!!!

To save your FOI application we are allowed to fly a maximum of 100 hrs a month, 250 every 3 months and 800 per year. Now bearing in mind I personally spend 6 months of the year OOA, that equates to roughly 400 hrs in an operational theatre yearly. We are routinely shot at with small arms, RPG and occasionally rockets/MANPADS and are working right on the limits of aircraft performance. I guess you know all this though seeing as you’re a CT and deploy as much as myself….. All this for a few thousand pounds a year extra. It must be a nightmare for ground crew sitting behind a wire drinking tea, eating biscuits and whingeing about "fooking aircrew".

I average around a 16hr day OOA this is not including being on standby 24hrs a day and rarely getting more than a day or 2 off in 2 months. I regularly work a 50+ hr week in the UK. This doesn’t include exercises, just training on the sqn. At present I have 4 secondary duties, 2 which are fairly noddy but 1 that is a Sqn duty and another which is a station duty. I don’t EVER recall any engineers have anywhere near as many secondary duties, if any.

If you think that aircrew do the job just for money then you are very sadly mistaken. You will never be rich by joining the military. I personally joined to do a job that makes a difference, travel the world and to do what is arguably one of THE best jobs in the world. If you cant see this and are for some reason bitter about it then tough, that’s life. Just as I will never tell you that your choices in life were crap, don’t judge aircrew by the choices they made or the system they have taken advantage of. Next your will be telling me that the SAS don’t need SF pay because all they do is sit about all day waiting for embassies to get hijacked.

Everybody in the military has the same chances to do a job that they want. If you don’t like the system then leave, but don’t make it difficult for people who are still in the system for what ever reason.

I'm intrigued though, have you ever actually flown with any of the guys and been involved in the whole process? My instincts tell me no. I don't ever recall any engineers having a 4 year training package before they can deploy. Maybe its just me but, I think that is maybe why they get paid less.......

Heights good

[TonkaEngO]

X Ref post #66 for previous comments.

Cannot believe this is still running!