EC130 Corner

[Pac Rotors]

Had a good look at the new EC-130 yesterday here at Heli Expo. Looks like a Gazellle on steroids from the back and a Schweizer 333 from the front. From all accounts flies very nicely and will be a positive addition to the US and Canadian tour market. Time will tell but it does look nice.

[IanSeager]

I saw it too, and have to say that I didn't like the way it looked, especially from the front.

[Pac Rotors]

It looks nice from the side and behind but agreed it doesnt look too crash hot from the front, as said before reminds me of the Schweizer 333.

It is supposed to be the latest in the AS-350 series so I suppose it could technically be called the B4 or as some call it the Allouette IV.

[whatsarunway]

have to say i thought it looked good but im not convinced about the seating arangments for the pilots , better than the 333 though, what do you call the controls when theres three sets of them , 3 cyclics ,3 collectivs and 6 pedals , not duals.


'you have control , were you talking to me?'

[RW-1]

Without noticing the step protruding out in front on the pic, (don't know whethe it does on the real bird, will have to look) I first noticed the unique skid design.

Interesting eh? Tying it into the wire strike category, using that design would now half your chances only leaving the area between fuse and rotor, unless that step does protrude as pictured ....

I agree on the nose looks though, the 120 looks better to me.

------------------
Marc

[widgeon]

Not the ugliest bird at the show though . IMHO that prize goes to the law enforcement Explorer , if you don't catch the crooks it will surely scare the hell out of them. Good to see the Skycrane up close though really impressive machine.

[Pac Rotors]

Aparently that Explorer was the one that was being used by the Coastguard for the evaluation that they did recently. Looks a little different now that it is in a different colour scheme.

[Flying Lawyer]

I agree. It does resemble the 333 from the front. But the spec seems to make up for that!

http://www.eurocopter.com/ec130/img/photo05m.jpg
http://www.eurocopter.com/ec130/img/photo11m.jpg

Whatsarunway: Triples, perhaps?

[alouette]

Does anybody have some information on charter rates for the EC 130 B4 in Europe or elsewhere. I appreciate some feedback on this matter. Cheers:ok:

[widgeon]

http://www.bluehawaiian.com/tour_detail.php?tgid=3&tid=8

They are charging an extra 35 US for a 45 min flight .

Based on purchase cost I would expect commercial rates similar to a Koala or Bell 407 , maybe 15% above b2/B3 rates. Of course it depends how much the customer is willing to pay for an extra seat and the type of work.

just read more of the page . seems they are not using the 8 place config ( can any one confirm this ) premium is just for lower noise more comfort and better view.

[alouette]

Thanks a lot, widgeon!:ok:

[CVR]

Charter rates in ireland for the EC130 are roughly 1700euro/hr, you can contact www.linkshelicopters.com..............hope this helps.:ok:

[Brasky]

Understanding that the Eurocopter EC130 has a dual channel FADEC, what are the requirements following a failure scenario?

For instance:

1. Channel 1 Fails - Do I ...
a. "Land as Soon as Possible"
b. "Land as Soon as Practical"?

2. Channel 2 Fails - Do I ...
a. "Land as Soon as Possible"
b. "Land as Soon as Practical"
c. Does control revert to manual?
d. Do I ride this screaming beast to earth?

Thanks in advance for the info!

[What Red Line?]

In the unlikely event that both channels failed the metering valve will freeze in the position it was in when the both FADECS agreed there was a failure. The system then reverts to a third buck-up system, the EBCAU which operates independantly from the two FADECs. The back-up system is set to give you aprox 102% NR and will get you to where you can land with no problems but you are supposed to avoid abrupt manoeuvres.

There is no manual connection between the twistgrip and the engine as this is a true FADEC. The twistgrip rotation simply triggers the TWT GRP warning light, then it contacts the idle speed microswitch commanding the 67% idle.

WRL

[maxtork]

The EC130B4 is, as stated before a true FADEC controlled engine, which also has a third electrical back up system (EBCAU or emergency back up control ancillary unit) provided by Europcopter. In the event that one channel of the FADEC would fail, the system would switch to the other channel and continue to fly WITH NO INDICATION TO THE PILOT AT THAT TIME!. This event would be considered a loss of redundancy since we have a second channel to continue to control the engine. Upon shut down in this case you would get a flashing amber GOV light which would indicate you had, in the last flight, a loss of redundancy and maintenance is required.

If for some reason you were to lose both channels of the FADEC system you would imediately get a red and an amber GOV light which indicates the FADEC is now out of the loop and the EBCAU system is activated. The EBCAU system is linked to the N2C sensor and it's sole purpose in life is to meter fuel flow to acheive and maintain 100% N2 speed (this may equate to 102Nr as previously posted). The EBCAU system is said to be very responsive but may slightly lag behind collective inputs so be cautious when flying in this mode.

The other thing to be aware of here is that the EC130 normally has a variable rotor RPM system in place for lowering noise levels. If at the time of this hypothetical dual channel FADEC failure you happen to be at a higher rotor rpm (I think 104% is the max) then you would get a red and amber light and the engine and rotor system would decelerate to achieve 100%N2 as commanded by the EBCAU. Normally this situation would prompt a pilot to react by lowering the collective (a normal response to red lights and decelerating engine/rotor) which in this case can cause an overspeed! Remember if you get the red AND the amber GOV lights it is an indication the the EBCAU is active and not abnormal for the engine and rotor to decelerate. Obviously I wouldn't let things get too far before I did something but keep it in the back of your mind.

In the worst case scenario if both FADEC channels as well as the EBCAU all failed you would be stuck with a fixed fuel flow as the metering needle would be frozen. The course of action at this point would depend on the power setting you were stuck with but you get the picture.

Truth be told there have been very few cases of dual channel FADEC failures that I am aware of. Hopefully this little lesson will help you make it home to change parts instead of changing pants if it happens to you!

Hope it helps
Max

[maxtork]

Sorry :ouch: I know I get diarreah of the mouth sometimes....it seems to have now spread to my typing fingers! lol

[TIMTS]

I LOVE Pprune!!

Now..if I could only fly a 130 for a living I would be all set!!

[212man]

Maxtork, obviously no doubting what you have said as I'm not a 130 pilot, but would not the flashing GOV caption be an indication of loss of redundency to one or both channels and a steady GOV be a warning of a total (single) channel failure? Why would you have a steady GOV caption as well as the RED one, otherwise? Does it (the steady GOV caption) come on when a loss of input results in retrieval laws being used?

Also, does the back up mode operate automatically or is there a Normal/Backup switch somewhere?

Just applying 155 logic to see how they compare, not disputing your knowledge!

[Brasky]

Excellent responses ... give me a few minutes to digest these as I'm certain to have more questions! ;)

Thanks again!

[maxtork]

212man

I agree with what you are saying. I would expect that the total loss of one channel would need some sort of indication to the pilot even though it is in essence a loss of redundancy but I found out the hard way that is not the case. If channel A which is the primary fails there is no indication to the pilot as he/she still has a totally functional FADEC control system on channel B so there is no cockpit indication. I have actually asked that this be changed but I am far enough down the food chain not to make a difference just yet. So the indications and there purpose are:

Flashing amber after shutdown (N1<20%) = loss of redundancy

Steady amber during flight= loss of a signal which has no back up in which case we switch to a back up law (mathematical formula that gets us close). The FADEC continues to control the engine but since we are using a back up law the engine may not perform quite as well as normal but is still under automatic control.

Red Gov light anytime during flight= metering valve is frozen and no further fuel flow changes made by the FADEC system. On the EC130 since we have the EBCAU system, the output from the FADEC comuter that turns on the Red gov light also goes to the EBCAU to activate it which turns on the Amber GOV light. With this in mind if the system is working properly you should never get a red GOV light without the amber as this would mean the FADEC is not controling the engine nor is the EBCAU!!

I don't work with the EC155 much so I dont remember if it has a dual channel or single channel system (I know the EC155B has the dual channel Arriel 2C2 engine but not sure about the 2C1 powered aircraft). This could be where the difference comes into play. If you would like I can check to see if this same caution warning display methodology applies to the 155's as well. Turbomeca is pretty good about using the same ideas for all their systems but those little changes and assumtions are the ones that bite you!

Max

[212man]

Maxtork
Thanks, sounds similar but with differences.

On both 155 models (B has the 2C1 and the B1 has the 2C2) if there is a loss of signal for which there is redundency, and so no effect on governing performance, the flashing GOV caption is used, with similar logic to what you have described. It flashes because it will be sitting amongst a load of other captions, normally, on shutdown.

If a signal is lost for which there is no redundency and a back up, or retrieval law, is incorporated, the steady GOV caption comes on and indicates there may be some degradation in governing performance. You could still have both channels working though (yes, it's dual channel).

If there are multiple input failures, or somehow the actual FADEC it self fails, and the FADEC can no longer function, the metering valve freezes and the Red GOV caption comes on if you are in a B model (pre back up mod) or an amber FADEC FAIL caption on the CAD if you are in a B1 or a B with the mod fitted. In the first case, that's it, the engine is frozen and will probably need shutting down for landing to prevent overspeed. In the second case, the back up switch is used to operate the EBCAU and a normal landing can be maded without abrupt power changes.

[maxtork]

212man

I wouldn't argue with you on this one. Like I said I don't get to play with the 155's much at all so I don't keep track of all the goodies on them. What you say though sounds normal. I still wish the 130 was set up the same as the 155 as you describe it where you would get an indication if you lose one channel.

Max

[SANAE1249]

I am looking for info on the STC/Mod for increasing the baggage
compartment size on the B4, similar to the mod on the B2,B3. I have received one picture but have no spec's on performance implication or volume gained.

Need it to convince my boss that it's worth upgrading to. He is sold on EC120 Colibri luggage space, but does not understand the implication of payload versus range. Typical 4 Gholfbags/or luggage for 4 international travellers.

[ECL_FTE]

SANAE1249,

I guess you're talking about the Cargo Pods for the EC130-B4.
This option has been developped and approved by Eurocopter Canada. It's currently STC in Canada (SH03-33) and in the US (SR2016NY).

There is no performance penalty (rate of climb, cruise, hover). It's compatible with the LH sliding door and the increase of volume is 0.12 cubic meter (approx). TOTAL is now 0.245 + 0.12 = 0.365 cubic meter.

The big advantage is that the cargo compartment becomes more or less a cube. So you can carry bulky luggage. For info you can take the 2 forward seats and put them in one cargo pod. It fits !

Mr Selfish

You\'re right for the AS350 Cargo Pods (not compatible with sliding door). However the EC130 Cargo Pods are.

[mickjoebill]

Am I right in thinking that if you remove the rear door for filming then pilots door has to be removed too?

Not ideal for some filming assignments...


Mickjoebill

[widgeon]

If I recall correctly one point of the locking mech for the front door engages with the sliding door. What does the RFM say ?.

[ECL_FTE]

mickjoebill, widgeon

Are we still talking about the EC130 or AS350 ?

Mickjoebill: you're wrong for operation with sliding door removed. Operations with RH sliding door removed is approved on both type with or without front pilot door installed.

AS350B3 Vne with RH sliding door off and RH pilot door off is 100 KIAS. with RH sliding door off and RH pilot door on Vne is 110 KIAS.

EC130B4 Vne with LH sliding door off and LH pilot door off is 90 KIAS. with LH sliding door off and LH pilot door on Vne is 110 KIAS.

Now for the EC130 with ECL (Eurocopter Canada) Cargo Pod installed, the sliding door slides on the pod. The rail is relocated on the pod making the sliding door compatible with the pod.

[SANAE1249]

Does anybody have any pictures of a EC 130B4 flying with this STC implemented? I have received some close-up pictures of the pods fitted on an aircraft, but would like to see some taken from different aspects. Any contact details of owner/operators will be greatly appreciated.

[ECL_FTE]

SANAE1249

I'll PM you right now...

[TBM700]

Hi buddys,

Is anybody of us able to provide some tips about EC130. I am thinking about things like shortcuts, or Excel files able to calculate weight and balance, or electronic flight manual, and so on.

Is there any EC130 users association in the world ?

Rgds.

Nemo'

[3top]

To the GOV lights.

Assuming that the B3 and B4 share the same powertrain and controls.
On the latest Transition course manual (stamped 02.Oct.2006) for the B3:

A red GOV light means "Major governor failure"
Actions:
Emergency mode automatically self-engages.
(Yellow)GOV illuminates.
....and so on

A yellow GOV light means "Minor FADEC failure"
Action:
Governing function degraded: Avoid abrupt power changes .....


3top

[maxtork]

3 Top,

The new style B3 with the 2B1 engine is axactly like the B4. Identical powertrain sans a few input differences from the airframe side. This is a good way to identify your actions in the case of a gov issue in flight. Since the new B3 and the 130 are dual channel and totally fly by wire EC installed a thrid back up system called the EBCAU. In the case of a single channel failure you will get nothing as it is considered a loss of redundancy and indicated after shut down. If you lose a signal to the DECU that has no back up then the system switches to a back up law. Basically it assumes a conservative number to replace the actual value that is missing. In this case it gives you the steady amber gov light in flight. This means things will work as advertised but it may be slow to respond or possibly not produce full N1 speed if asked. In this case...keep going but dont try to land on top of Everest!

If you get a dual channel failure you will imediately get the red gov light. This means the stepper motor is frozen in place. The same out put from the DECU that turns on that red light energizes the EBCAU and sets it into motion to govern fuel flow. Once it is activated it send s a signal to the panel to illumintate the amber gov light which is your indication that you are once again flying in the degraded mode. Like you said no abrupt power changes.

If for some reason you get the red gov light and no amber light then you have a problem. At this point nobody is driving and you may be stuck with the power setting you have at the time. I've yet to hear of it happening but be aware of how the system works so you can react appropriately.

Max

[3top]

Engine Control by Wire..... thank you, Sir!
I don't want to know how it "feels" to Fly-by-wire in a helo (NH90).
All current off - and you are not even a Rotor-glider, ....just a rock! :E

3top

[corella killer]

Hi Can anyone give us any feedback on to Pro's and Con's of the EC130 Mainly any maintenance issues any comments would be greatly appreciated

[B Sousa]

Thats a pretty big question. If your an EC130 driver, what are you looking for?
My experience is that as a tour aircraft its a great machine over the Bells. If I had VIPs I might go for a B407 or the A119. Cant comment on it as a sling ship.
Maintenance issues wont be much different than having an A-Star/AS-350.
Get some specific questions and Im sure some will help you out.

[Dis-Mystery of Lift]

Gidday here is my 10 cents worth,

Pro's

Great Scenic ship
Pax love the front two seats
Fadec and VEMD makes life easy

Con's

Eurocopter and Turbomeca support is ****!!
No baggage room(When carrying 7 people away for two nights)
Have to offload gas for people
Cant carry more than 60% gas when full pax when operating out of Heliports and confines.(Just over 1 hour gas)
Will run out of cyclic and pedal with wind on right hand rear quarter,Heavy and less than 30% gas.

Other than that it's great!!!

[Senior Pilot]

corella killer,

Welcome to Rotorheads ;)

We have a thread already with some information that you are asking, EC130 here. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=277514)

Good luck :ok:

[corella killer]

Thanks lads mainly sniffing around for any common breakdown problems abnormal wear and tear associated with the machine as it will be working in remote bush area's in Australia and PNG primarily scenic opps but 3 months of fires and lift opps per year

[widgeon]

is the weight restriction due to engine or transmission limits ( I would suspect transmission as they have put ever more powerful engines in without major redsign of the drive train ).

[Dis-Mystery of Lift]

Bascically you have a B3 that is heavier,wider and with a Fenestrom.Bascically the B3 fill it up with pax and fuel and do 130 to 140 kias.The B4 fill it up with pax OR Fuel and do 110kias.Also when flying by your self dont expect great airspeed as you will reach the forward limit of the cyclic will before MCP.The Ec130 is a passengers machine not a pilots!

[Sapphire88]

Ec 130's are good for one thing and that is carrying passengers, and anyone who thinks you cant put full pax and a heap of fuel is full of S#$t.

An average 130 is about 1450kg (Air con, leather,etc) and all up weight is is 2427 kg so with 977 kg up you sleave you can take full fuel (437 kg) which still leaves you an average pax weight of 77 kg and keeping in mind that is with full fuel.

Myself i think 130's are a waste of money compared to a A119 for similar dollars but great passenger machine.

Not to mention all up external weight is 2800kg so at all up internal weight you are getting out of a confined area without to much trouble.

[Kulwin Park]

We need Capt. Hollywood to comment on the flying of the 130, as he has just got his new painted machine. Even with his old machine, he must have flown around solo most of the time, so would know whether it is a Passenger machine ... or a Pilot machine??!! :8

[Flugplatz]

Flew one earlier this year for over 100 hours in the African bush up at 3000' (DA 5000'-6000'). Generally very reliable on maintenance although non-structural items such as baggage compartment walls, door struts etc were a bit flimsy with crappy fasteners. Due to the heat we had two cracks appear in the perspex front canopy, but not in the vision of the pilot. Stop-drilled and added clear tape patch that sorted it out. Had a starter/gen. that needed replacement. The 100 hour can actually be done very quick with great access, but I think the 300 hour is a lot more in-depth. Other issues were sand ingestion despite the filter (Mechanic recommended changing the fuel filter element at half of the scheduled time), and the air-con couldn't cope with prolonged use in the 40 degree OAT.
On the electronics side we had the torque pick-up/sensor that started to under-read due to it moving from its mounted position (giving 'fails' on the power-check).

The main thing seems to be the usual bad Eurocopter support in the way of timely spares. For example we were warned that a new flight control hydraulic servo would take many months to arrive if needed; unlike the Bell 206 where the units themselves could be stripped and stuff like 'O' rings and seals replaced individually - seems like Eurocopter want a complete exchange. Didn't come to that though. Overall the EC130 B4 was a good choice for our passenger flights even though nearly all our fuel was from drums and mechanics had to be flown in. It is a B3 under the skin (same assembly line) and pretty tough.
Love the wide-track skids which eliminate minor slopes compared to the BH206! power was good although watch the crazy (180 ltr/hr) fuel consumption and don't expect a huge leap in power when going through ETL (on the plus side IGE hover is a bit higher).

FLUG

[corella killer]

Thanks Flug and to everyone else for thier replies Flug was your filter an IBF or standard partical sep and were you useing the 1 plt/7 pax seat configuration or the 1 plt/6 pax :ok: cheers for your help again

[Dis-Mystery of Lift]

I cant imagine how little fuel you can take if you go for the 1 pilot plus 7 pax might be able to do about .2:ok:

[ECB4]

Guess most of my pax are full of sh-t because 90% weigh more than 77kg and I never take full fuel with 7 pob. The machine does fly at 2800kg but I wouldn't like to try and poke it into a confined area at that weight. Have flown a number of these machines over the past 5 years and all weigh in around the 1500kg mark empty, They are float equipped which adds around 60kg. Very reliable machine but needs to be as parts from manufacturer are hard to come by especially the engine. As previous posters have said the punters love them and the pilots don't. If you want a smooth ride look somewhere else, vibration level sucks and EC don't have a fix.

[Flugplatz]

Corella Killer

Was using the standard dust-filter (particle sep.) for the engine intake. The filter came into action by a switch on the panel or in our case a button on the collective. The aircraft was in the pilot plus six pax configuration, that was about the optimum because 90% of the time we were taking pax luggage too. The dust and sand conditions were in the nature of very fine particles so that the standard filter didn't get all of it by a long way; not helped by the massive rotorwash recirculation compared to the JetRanger we were also using. Our main solution was to use pegged down shadecloth plus tyres to make a helipad for the most frequent use, to avoid the dust issue.

Have a look in the POH at the fuel filter emergency; it is quite severe and probably deserves a 'red' light rather than amber on the panel (can get Ng oscillations, limited power leading to flame-out). You could carry a spare and our mechanic showed me how to fit it in an emergency which was quite simple; at that time we were mainly worried about having to make a precautionary landing with the warning light on, and then being trapped in the middle of the bush with all the animals around, so it was an emergency get-you-home solution (rather than getting chowed!)

Our aircraft did really vibrate with just the pilot, but put 3-4 pax plus bags in there and it is 'tuned' for that typical loading, so you get a much smoother ride.
Hope this helps
Flug

[farmpilot]

Flug

Have we met? I was in 'the bush' with three 407's and a B3 with a camera on it......

farmpilot

[Flugplatz]

Farmpilot,

Sounds familiar! hanging out with a certain Billioniare who owns Jimmy Hendrick's Woodstock guitar?... how's it going?

Flug:8

[farmpilot]

You know I couldn't possibly talk about that.......:cool:

You back down south again? I was with Peter P in October shooting Elephants, I see the B4 has gone back :(

[corella killer]

Anyone had any hook time on the 130 whats it good for 1000kg with half fuel

[CDME]

Check with Paul Spring of Phoenix Heliflight in Canada as he uses his EC130 in total utility configuration.

Cheers

[topendtorque]

corella killer
Yes, a sport that I also used to indulge in, but not now with R22 blades. I suggest that you check the integrity and make up the blades re your enquiry - or - fly a bit higher when you get into one.

The best way was to - sneak up - flat out and super low from downwind in a 47, usually on a flock of a couple of hundred of them that were feeding on a stack of sorghum that was loose on the ground.

They would take off and - in panic as you rolled slightly to give the old blade whack, whack trick - anything up to a dozen would roll right on their backs and pulling full power go straight down - from two to four feet.

yeah, I can be perverse too.
tet

[corella killer]

Whats that got to do with 130s:confused:

[topendtorque]

Whats that got to do with 130s:confused:


Nothing;

I simply took the cue from your pen name.

Where did you get that from, a phantom comic?

[reynar]

Requesting info from any B4 pilots,
1) is this type good for sling work 2) what speed and f/f do you normal see near gross wt
3) how comfy are the seats after a couple of hours
4) does it handle similar to a AS350 b2
5) any rumors of external gross wt increase

Thanks mel

[B Sousa]

Never did sling work with one. I think I would prefer the B3. Depending on your age any seat sucks after a few hours. Nice set up from the left side though.
I did find that a B2 will fly past a B4 on a hot day loaded.

[EBCAU]

My opinion based on my limited experience:

1) is this type good for sling work
There are a lot better. But if you want a people mover that can lift, rather than a lifter that needs to move people, it's worth consideration.
2) what speed and f/f do you normal see near gross wt
Depends what you are lifting but 80 knots is ball park figure. There's a lot of aerodynamic drag in the wide cabin to add to the load drag, increasingly so as the nose goes down. AS350 probably better.
3) how comfy are the seats after a couple of hours
Better than any Bell seat I've sat in.
4) does it handle similar to a AS350 b2
No experience on B2 but probably not
5) any rumors of external gross wt increase
I don't see this as a practical necessity. Gross MAUW external is 2800 kg, hook rated @ 1160kg. All the figures come together at low fuel. You can lift the max but you don't have a lot of power reserve to play with.

If you remove seats to add performance then c of g will be on aft limit, unless you're a big 'un. You will run out of forward cyclic. Ballast in nose helps but I felt that the machine seemed to be unstable fore and aft compared to lateral.
LH seating is okay but nose of the skid always seemed to be in the way of the sight picture.
It's a long scan from the load to the VEMD when things are getting tricky.

[Ian Corrigible]

I'm sure I've seen Phoenix Heliflight (http://www.phoenixheliflight.com/) doing external load ops with an EC130 (possibly in one of Ned Dawson's or Mike Reno's photoshoots?), and their website says that they also fly B2 Squirrels, so they might be an outfit to talk to.

I/C

[reynar]

Thanks to everyone for the input, Mel

[Kulwin Park]

Does anyone know the width of the EC130, in regards to the Landing Gear footprint?? Interested in knowing the skid tube distance apart for measurements on a trolley and trailer?

Maybe someone could reach for their FM in the Dimensions section, or post the 3D schematic up here for me ... Please :ok: KP

[No-ID]

American Eurocopter - EC130 Specifications (http://www.eurocopterusa.com/products/EC130-specifications.asp)

This what you're looking for?

[eivissa]

Just for comparison...

Flight Manual:

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/3172/ec130dimensionsfm.jpg

Training Manual:

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/1903/ec130dimensionstm.jpg
(http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/1903/ec130dimensionstm.jpg)

[Kulwin Park]

Thanks No-ID and Eivissa ... exactly what I was after! :ok:

Thanks to the Moderator too for combining into topic .. I did Forum search on EC130, but didn't come up with all that info. Good work!

[victor papa]

I learned 1 thing with the 130-don't believe everything you hear about her especially the post 2005 ones! My advise is to study her, get to know her and then go to fly her. Do not expect a B3+ as she is not a B3 and handles and responds differently despite having the same engine and drivetrain(except tail) + dual hydraulics. Once you understand and know her dynamics and get comfortable with her as a machine with her own place in life you will be shocked at what she can do. Remember that she has a massive rotor rpm variance for noise and performance determined by your fenestron pedal position. You fly her wrong you can be as much as 15rrpm too low or too high and all should understand the impact on lift and thus power which leads to a lot of myths in my opinion around her performance. I know the B2 and B3 along with many other types and the one which demands respect is the 130. Maybe because it is not her reputation to be able to work/take heavy loads/be utility. She does not look like a workhorse. If you allow yourselve however you will soon learn her capabilities is surprising. Been there and did the 42 degree thing, 4600ft, 3 crew, 141kg patient and flew 2 hrs to the nearest hospital without hitting the top of the yellow range. She enters the yellow range quickly but then it feels like that Arriel is telling you "eventually I can work a bit". Pls, i am not contesting graphs and safety, just trying to say go fly her and fly her as a 130 and not a B3/407/B2 or anything else and you will be surprised I am sure.

Maintenance on her is a non event. That fenestron makes her lower maintenance than the 350 and you score dual hydraulics. In my experience if you know what to look for like the Squirrel you have ample warning in most cases to do preventative maintenance. The fenestron is on a 1000hr check.

[Flugplatz]

Good points Victor Papa, they are quality machines that can do a whole lot more than pax-heavy scenic flights. I found it was like flying a luxury Mercedes but with some serious brawn and good reliability in austere circumstances. Maybe at that level people just go up to a twin. I am surprised that there doesn't appear to be at least one on the UK register, unless someone can enlighten me?

Flug

[TorqueItUp]

I am interested if anyone has information to share on the 8 seat (4 + 4) configured EC130 or 'Eco-Star'.

In this configuration The EC130 must be the greatest (pax) capacity, single engine machine on the market. How does it perform when loaded with 8 pax?

Does anyone have a excel weight and balance calculator for this configuration of the EC130 as I'm interested to see what distribution of weights it can handle and still be inside the envelope.

The big tourism operators (Maverick, Blue Hawaiaan, Grand Canyon) who use this aircraft type all seem to have the conventional 7 (4 3) seat setup. Does any operator in the scenic market have the 8 seat configuration EC130?

[Ian Corrigible]

Looking at Maverick's website (http://www.maverickhelicopter.com/eco-star-helicopter.aspx), they fly the 4 + 4 configuration.

I/C

[widgeon]

Just to clarify , I don't not think there is an EC130 version that can carry 8 pax plus pilot. As IC pointed out Maverick fly the 8 seat version that carries 7 pax plus pilot . Most of the tours seem to be 3.5 hours with a landing for snacks. So I would assume they can do 2.5 fllight hours fully loaded ( I don't think they refuel in the canyon) . I am not sure if they tend to load the lighter people in the front seats to avoid c of g issues. I do know that many of the operators weigh the passengers to ensure they are flying within limits.

https://www.bluehawaiian.com/about/blue_hawaiian_difference/finest_helicopters/

BH fly 7 seat config , I expect due to the extra weight of the flotation gear.

[9Aplus]

Any decent offer for almost new AS350 B3 or B4 (EC130)
sale, lease (dry, wet) ASAP for not less than 3 months from now
with possilbe 6 month extensions....
(short hook is an advance, for up to 800kg testing light works puropses)
:cool:

[Trevor KC]

Futher to this discussion regarding the 130 would anyone know where I can get my hands on a flight manual for this aircraft. I'm doing an engineering project and quite a bit of the information I need is contained in the flight manual. Any help would be hugely appreciated.

Thanks

Trev:ok:

[myskyheli]

Greetings all,

Just after some feedback on sling operations on the 130 thanks.

I would imagine lifting must be a better vert ref from the left seat, vs say the 350 from the right?

However,it would also seem a large change of view from head out the door, back to the check the (usual) position of the VEMD for the FLI ?

We are not planning a great deal of sling work, just the occasional lifting with a 10m line and possibly the occasional fire-bucket. (And yes, I know the die-hards will tell me the B3 is the go. But we're getting a 130, so there!)

Eurocopter also seem to offer a few varients on the hook options, including a 1350kg option. Surely only applicable in nice cold climates? Doubt we could get 1350 off the ground in the heat we'll be playing in. Opinions?

Any other insights would be welcomed.

Thanks in advance. Fly safe.

[RVDT]

Isn't the B4 limited to 1160kg on the hook anyway?

They may be offering a "1350 kg" hook just don't put 1350 kg on it.

[victor papa]

RVDT you are correct. the B4 is limited but not on performance as such but the different mounting of the cargo swing which is more aft than the 350.

[myskyheli]

Thanks guys,

But i'm a tad confused... (not having access to the RFM only the tech sup),

if the 130 is limited on the hook, why are they offering the 1300kg option? (I know they're French, but there must be some logic?)

Ta...

[Nubian]

why are they offering the 1300kg option?

where do they do that??

According to their homepage: Civil helicopter, ecureuil helicopter, helicopter manufacturer - Eurocopter, an EADS company (http://www.eurocopter.com/site/en/ref/Characteristics_75.html)

they don't.

cheers

[myskyheli]

Gee thanks for the time wasting Nubian, (such a cynic - you must either work in management or check and training - and probably ex-military!)

But AS I SAID... in the Eurocopter EC130 Tech Info;
Page 15, Doc Ref # 06-27016A, and Comm Ref 06-27016-00 offer up the 1350 hook option!

So if anyone actually helpful out there could shed light, it would be appreciated.

(Nubian, you can now go and check my spelling and grammar)

Thanks to all others... :ugh:

[RVDT]

Maybe commonality with other models (i.e.) B3 or a heavier duty hook, who knows.

Maybe it is known as a "1350 kg hook". You can fit it to a B4 but you can only lift 1160 kg on it due to other limitations which are not specific in the data available to Joe Operator.

Ask your friendly dealer or tech rep!

[Nubian]

Myskyheli,

I'm sure your precious 30 seconds of wasted time was a terrible loss, I appologize so much, (really didn't account on such a thin-skinned Aussie)

Now, why don't you pick up the phone and call them then if you have questions instead of asking a question you don't seem to like the answers to here? then you can enlighten us here with your findings later...

Now, unsure about your willingness to listen further, I'd just add that the 130 has the same engine/drive (except the fan) as the B3+ and it is a heavier basic ship, it has the same AUW as the B3+ (for external ops)

Just cause we use 2ton slings on the hook on the B3, doesn't allow us to lift 2tons with it.

Btw, your guess is wrong on all accounts.....as I am a just another civilian trained line utilitypilot. As for grammar/spelling, I'm sure I have my fair share of mistakes too so I don't bother with others.

ah, well now I'd just wasted more of your time.... :ugh:

[victor papa]

Ok, before we have a fight over a cargo swing here is my guess. EC incorporates some hooks and swings into their maintenance Program as standard and these are part of the SB kits. These inspections are addressed in the Airframe Maintenance Program and their inspections reflects on the standard servicing schedule. All slings and swings are not part of the EC program and can only be fitted under a STC and they are not addressed in the standard maintenance program.

Now, Onboard or Siren for instance does not manufacture a cargo hook per aircraft type but in weight classes. So, if you fit the 1350kg hook to the 130 it can lift 1350kg and if it is in the EC catalogue it is a standard option one-however the airframe is limited to 1160kg due to the mounting of the swing and thus how much the airframe can take. Why 1350kg hook, because that is the weight class of the hook and can be used on B3 for instance. They will not go recertify and design and build a new hook so it states 1160kg specifically. There are 850kg hooks on the market you can also fit to the 130/B3/B2-they are closer to the B2 limit and obviously slightly cheaper.

Hope this helps????????????????

[myskyheli]

Thanks very much VP. Most helpfull (as in the past).

Still doesn't answer my initial question though, has anyone done much lifting with the 130, and any feedback (vs the 350 from the right)?

Nubian, sorry if I came accross a little "unshaved"! Have just been very frustrated trying to get accurate info on this a/c as we have very few of them here in OZ. And i'd love to pick up the phone to "the very helpfull frenchmen in our eurocopter office here", but you obviously haven't experienced their customer service here nor the speed with which the snail delivers the message. And don't start me on my experience with management or c & t types. (Sorry, i'll buy you a hypothetical drink, - cheers)

Thanks again for the feedback. Waiting...

[RVDT]

Pick up the phone and call your poor cousins to the East.

I think there are about 20 B4's in NZ. Whether they bother to sling with them is another question but more likely than most they will have.

Mind you, there also about 15 B3's amongst other types, so why would you bother using a B4!

Start at the NZ CAA web site aircraft registry.

[Ian Corrigible]

myskyheli,

Talked to an EC contact last night: the 1,350 kg swing is no longer offered, and will not be certified. I guess it was considered at one time but then quietly dropped.

I/C

[SuperF]

there are a few B4's here in NZ, but very few people sling with them. mostly they are used on private ops, charter or tourist ops. the guys i can think of that run them are advanced flight in Auckland, pretty much all private and charter work, over the top in QT on tourist work, i think North Shore Heli in Auckland might have access to a few, and lowe walker in Napier.

the last one did some ag work with theirs:eek:, only spreading urea, not spraying... its part owned by a farmer, so thought they may as well give their pilot something else to do, and he had the experience so why not. Pretty sure the only B4 in NZ with a hook, vaguely remember he said it was good for a ton without too much trouble. thats with all the VIP interior still in it, air con on, about an hour gas, go to work...

[TukTuk BoomBoom]

The main issue with the EC130 is the ski basket vs hook issue. Designed by Eurocopter as a tourist machine the option is for either a ski basket or hook not both at the same time.
Major flaw

[Rigidhead]

Tuk Tuk,
I think you will find that the basket is a Dart design rather than EC.
There is a company in Calgary called Aero Design that holds an STC
for AS 350 baskets and I believe is working on one for the EC 130
that is compatible with the hook/swing.

On a side note, while the aircraft definitely got it's start with big tour
operations, I think it is seeing more and more utility applications due to
it's cabin size (seating capacity) power and flexibility.
(Remember the 206 being too pretty for utility work vs. the 47?)

Regards,

Rigidhead

[Nubian]

Myskyheli,

No worries, mate! I can't say I was Mr. Diplomatic either:\
Either way, good luck with the B4 when it arrives:ok:


Tuktuk,

Dart Aerospace ltd. has the STC #SH94-14 and with Part #D130-701-043 'Heli-utility-basket', it is approved for both things installed at the same time with some reduced load-capasity on the hook though.
Part #D130-701-041 is not compatible, so then it is as you say either/or.

Can be found on their page(http://pdart.dyndns.org:3585/sites/ProdSpec/Documents/Eurocopter/AS350,%20AS355,%20EC130/D130-701_101005.pdf), and dates from April this year, so a fairly recent mod.

Cheers and an early Happy X-mas

[Brilliant Stuff]

FYI
There is a swish EC130 G-WCKD being prepared for customer acceptance at ECUK.

[theaceofblades]

Hi Chaps, I couldn't find an existing thread on this subject so hence I've posted a new one. Can anybody with experience of the EC-130 please share their opinions ?

In particluar, if this machine is in 7 seat VIP config would it be similar to the EC-120 in that 7 burleys blokes and full fuel would be an absolute no no ? Does it have sufficient power for 7 people and luggage ?

Does it have any other disadvantages worthy of note ?

Also what is the general communitys views with regards this machine as a single engine aircraft capable of carrying 7 people ? Is there something better with the same capacity but still single engine ?

Your thoughts greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Ace

[ECB4]

MAUW 2427 kg

A/c Empty weight 1550kg or more depending on extras.

Full fuel 420kg.

"Burlys," bags, whatever it's a numbers game.

Don't put all that weight up front and try anything downwind.

They vibrate.

You need something bigger unless talking 20 minute hops.

[ECB4]

Upon further reflection.

Ditch the "Burlys"

Take the "WAGS". Put their handbags in the rear locker (C of G)

Plenty of room in the side lockers for light and fluffly stuff (assuming they have been shopping) on the way home.

Oh and the pilot will need to be of a physical nature other than "Burly" :O

[EBCAU]

"Does it have sufficient power for 7 people and luggage ?"

Absolutely, if you are still within the allowable MAUW.
The machine is not lacking in power generally, which is why there is a temptation to load more into it. If you stay within the figures mentioned by ECB4 you can do pretty much anything if you're not in high DA.

[G-SASY]

Not sure if you are still after users comments on EC130s??

I own and fly an EC130 Stylence out of London G-SASY. I bought it new, after going to numerous trade shows, HeliExpo, Paris Airshow, Farborough etc. looking for the ideal private helicopter.

It is without peer as a modern, comfortable aircraft where all pax have an excellent view. The large cabin has 3 in front and 4 in back, facing forward on raised seats that give very clear view over the heads of those in front. Its like a flying greenhouse. The only competitor really is a Bell 407 which looks (and is) a 1960s riveted pre-obsolete looking thing. Worst thing about the 407 is (like the Longranger), all but one passenger are jammed in the back facing each other, and can only see out the sides. The EC130 has more power and is lighter than the 407. I regularly carry full fuel and 7 people. Last weekend I flew into and out of Paris Issy le Moulineaux which is very steep departure, surrounded by buildings, but the EC130 has so much power (870hp) that it can climb fast fully laden. I have done all variations of C of G cals and she is hard to put out of unless you are carrying a football team.

Not sure about hooks, but def available to 1,200kg from memory. Dart Helicopter have "squirrel cheeks" bulging baggage extenders and a long range fuel tank with STCs that increase endurance from 3.5hrs to 4.4hrs.

One thing you should know is that the main rotor, gearbox and engine are AS350B3, and are optimised for hot high humid heavy operation. It is "over rotored and overpowered at sea level, and optimised I am told for flight at 12000ft. The true fuel consumption is a regular 180lt\hr at 120kts at sea level, less higher. Yes they say the cruise is 130kts and you can but 120 feels more all day. I did one trip at 14,500ft (really confused French ATC) and achieved fuel consumption of 130lt/hr flying a leg of 370nm with 20 min reserve. What a hoot.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
Roderick

[Brilliant Stuff]

How smooth is she when you fly it empty.
I recently was told she was mainly designed to fly smooth all up at 90kts. Hence the question.

[puntosaurus]

I spent about 20 mins under the hood in an EC130 the other day at 120Kt, with one other on board and she was smooooth. Which is more than I can say for my flying !

[G-SASY]

The EC130B4 is very smooth up to about 125kts. At the recommended "fast cruise" of 130kts there is a low frequency oscillation, I guess you could call it a vibration, which develped when I fited emergency floats. Overall it is an extremely quiet and smooth helicopter, I am told the quietest light helicopter on the market, and the only one allowed to fly the Grand Canyon for that reason. I don't think there is anything magical about 90 kts, thats slow, and no advantage.
Cheers

[EBCAU]

With all due respect to G-SASY I do have to disagree with some of his claims - unless there have been some major improvements to the EC130 over the years. I do not know what a "Stylence" refers to, unless it is a new lighter, faster, quieter model I have not come across.


The differences I found between the "Stylence" and those I flew are:

Heavier than B407 by 177 kg in general, you can find that anywhere on the internet.
The several that I have flown were only the 846 hp varient, I didn't know they have increased the power available to 870 hp
The only time I could get 130 knots, straight & level, was during track and balance runs with self and engineer in front. Without the weight of two up in front the stick is too far forward in fast flight and the mast limit light would illuminate. Did heaps of T&B runs too - the machines vibrate so much. I accept 122 kts as a max cruise speed and it would be around that figure with little differrence with AUW. I think the wide cabin produced a top speed influenced by form drag rather than AUW.
Full fuel and seven up? Seven lightweights then. W&B is always an issue. A little bird once told me that they will fly very well with seven full size pax, and all their gear, but that's just a little bird talking ;).
The sales people will tell you it is the quietest helicopter but I suspect that they have never heard a NOTAR machine fly over because it was so quiet. I actually had complaints about the extra noise from the B4 but I dismiss that as the fact that it sounds different and so attracts attention. Nobody can tell me that it is a really quiet helicopter when you are in the portside forward quadrant as a listener. The different noise signature does have its good points. You can land close to a herd of cattle and many of them wont bother to get up. Horses, including the racing variety, similar. Sheep? There's another story. They hate it. But who cares about sheep?

[arismount]

I formerly worked for an operator doing U.S. HEMS in the EC130. The med crews like the aircraft and I liked the way it flew, I was especially impressed by the Arriel engine and the dual FADEC/EBCAU redundancy.

Before I moved on I flew the aircraft around 400 hours and never had any serious problems. Now I hear that operators are starting to report incidents of engine decels (loss of N1) in flight that have resulted in forced landings. Anyone have any information or links on this? Thanks.

[hole.shot]

is there any way that i could get hold of the STC no for EC130 cargo swing from co. ONBOARD? . I tried searching for it at www.faa.gov (http://www.faa.gov) but to no avail.

[McGowan]

EBCAU, agree with you. We recently took bought one and I now have about 70 or so hours in it.
A good machine for us, private ops, and does it comfortably.
But 7 up and full fuel, not unless 6 of them are multiple amputies. With full fuel and me, I can carry 378 kg of bodies and gear.
I like the machine now that I am starting to feel comfortable in it and the more I fly it, the more I like it.
It does get up and dance at 2427kg which is all the better, the VMED is very good and the fact it has dual hydraulics and dual FADEC plus the back up just makes my life so mush easier.
As yet we haven't had any maintenance issues, due for a 100 hourly next week so will see.

[John Eacott]

is there any way that i could get hold of the STC no for EC130 cargo swing from co. ONBOARD? . I tried searching for it at www.faa.gov (http://www.faa.gov) but to no avail.

The Suspension System Sling RFM Supplement is here, (http://www.onboardsystems.com/documentation/121-049-00.pdf) STC No SR01815SE.

The Suspension System Swing RFM Supplement is here, (http://www.onboardsystems.com/documentation/121-046-00.pdf) with the same STC number.

Lots of information available on the Onboard Systems (http://www.onboardsystems.com/productCategory/2) products page :ok:

[McGowan]

Does anyone have any training notes on the EC130B4.
Just been going through the flight manual and feel that there isn't enough information on how thing actually work.
I find that I want to know a lot more about the machine that is keeping me in the air these days.

[helicopterray]

There is the SDM manual, which is the Systems Description Manual, that gets issued with the Aircraft Maintenance Manual. This manual contains all the information you would get in the Traning Manual and training notes.