Polar Air Cargo to get four 747-400F's!

[Whale Rider]

Polar Air Cargo to recieve four 747-400F's, all pilots to return to service! Thats the rumor. Anyone confirm????

[WhaleFR8]

Where do you imagine they would get the airplanes from?

[whaledriver101]

Where are they going to get the -400's from?? Take a wild guess

[WhaleDriver]

If Atlas is the source of the -400's for this fantasy, think again. All the Atlas -400's are on full time contracts thru 2008 and actually making money.

You have to get back on your meds, or illusions of granduer will continue.

[iahtexan747400]

I imagine AAWW will want the Polar MEC to agree to a one list merger w/ Atlas before any more growth to occur. DHL's contract is soon to start so we'll see what happens. :ugh:

[742]

There is another possible source for some -400s. I mention this not to feed rumors, but because it would make sense. The new CEO just dealt with the Atlas pilots major issue (STN). If he wants labor peace it makes sense for him to deal with the Polar's pilot's major issue.

As long as Atlas does not get stripped of airplanes (I am an Atlas guy) and this rumor is true, I think this is a good thing. We need to get this merger done and behind us, and the more working airplanes in the final mix the better for all of us.

[mercpc9]

I think Whale Rider is talking about the recent grievance filed by the Polar MEC Chairman Bobb Henderson making another attempt to get A/C and crews back via the grievance process. I can't remember which of the previous grievance arbitrations (Holden or Harris) that involved attempting similar that didn't get the A/C back but got the crews back pay until they are furloughed properly. The latter happening when the alliance flying stops and Polar gets an Atlas -200 to furlough off the remaining unnecessary Polar crews collecting checks while sitting at home. This is coming soon and is probably what prompted this new grievance to get what he didn't get in the other arbitration award.

I think the premise on the new grievance is on the post strike "back to work agreement" that I believe both management and the Polar MEC violated. Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black scenario. Curious how this will turn out. Maybe it is another way to attempt dragging out the Atlas/Polar merger also.

mercpc9 http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/polar4400/logs.pl

[whaledriver101]

IAHTexan,,There wont be a merger if Atlas MEC does not agree to a "time line fence". And a damn long one at that. Your right,,, The DHL contract is soon to start(this summer). And I believe with alot of DHL control(routes, scheduling etc,,).Polar pilots will "dribble the clock out". See what happens.

[WhaleFR8]

There will be no timeline fence - ever. To do so would violate the Harris arbitration and possibly vacate the entire seniority list. This will never happen. So if there will be no merger, then there will be no more Polar. It truly is a shame.

Is Henderson is leaving the airline? I wonder how much he really cares what happens to his guys.

The beginning of this thread was one of those "start a rumor and hope it comes true" kind of things, as well as a poor attempt to start the fight again.

Rat you should close this before it gets out of hand.

[CR2]

Duly noted & eyes are open.

Try moderating yourselves on this one :hmm:

The thread title was about PO getting 400s. Discuss! CLX will be getting rid of 400s as the -8s come online...

[Po Boy]

Rider,

Please put that crack pipe down, and step away from the keyboard :}

All kidding aside, source please? Don't say Bobbbbb told you so.

[WhaleFR8]

Well that is easy then - by the time the CLX -400's come available, Atlas will have already taken delivery of their own -8Fs. It is of course, possible, that they would be interested in the CLX freighters, but it doesn't seem to fit with the business plan they have announced. By that time, Polar will already have been long absorbed into the fold (one way or another) and it would make more sense to exercise the remaining 14 options Atlas has for the -8F.

So to say that "Polar" is getting four -400s, even now, would be incorrect. Polar doesn't own the five that they are operating. They are all owned by, or the leases are held by, Atlas Air World Wide Holdings. It just seems kind of pointless for all of us to suffer the drama, as AAWWH will do what they wish with those airplanes, and with the Polar business unit, without any interference by the Polar or the Atlas pilots. Every MEC in history has thought they could manipulate the company through job actions or relationships with the Board of Directors. It NEVER happens. The best we could do was agree on our own seniority list. And no one is happy with that, so it must mean the arbitrator did his job properly. Now that it is done, it is time to move forward.

The DHL contract is soon to start(this summer). And I believe with alot of DHL control(routes, scheduling etc,,).Polar pilots will "dribble the clock out". See what happens. Today 03:25Unfortunately the above statement is incorrect. The DHL deal does not start until 2008 - so Polar pilots will have to dribble for quite a long time. And the fact of the matter is that Polar Air Cargo is going away. The DHL deal is with "Polar Air World Wide," which is a different company that could conceivably be staffed with only Atlas pilots if the Polar pilots continue to dribble. The merger will go through with or without the Polar pilots. It is long past time they got on board.

[Ganbare]

mercpc9,

I want one of those eyes, where can I get it?

[elk]

For those that don't know what the hold up with the "merger" is, I thought I would post this section of the Polar CBA.
C. SUCCESSORSHIP.
1. This Agreement shall be binding upon any successor of the Company, including, without limitation, any merged company or companies, assignee, purchaser, transferee, administrator, receiver, executor, and/or trustee of the Company, unless and until changed in accordance with the provisions of the Railway Labor Act. For purposes of this paragraph, a successor shall be defined as an entity which acquires all or substantially all of the assets or equity of the Company through a single transaction or multi-step related transactions that close within a twelve (12) month period. Subject to the provisions of Paragraph D below (if applicable), the Company shall require a successor to assume and be bound by all the terms of this Agreement as a condition of any transaction that results in a successor.


I think the Polar Pilots, along with their contract, will be going to "Polar Air Worldwide." Unless, of course, Ca*o wants to lose at arbitration again.

[WhaleFR8]

C. SUCCESSORSHIP.
1. This Agreement shall be binding upon any successor of the Company, including, without limitation, any merged company or companies, assignee, purchaser, transferee, administrator, receiver, executor, and/or trustee of the Company, unless and until changed in accordance with the provisions of the Railway Labor Act. For purposes of this paragraph, a successor shall be defined as an entity which acquires all or substantially all of the assets or equity of the Company through a single transaction or multi-step related transactions that close within a twelve (12) month period. This has already been done. Altas purchased Polar many years ago, and has abided by your CBA (which is now amendable) since then. I wouldn't hang my hat on this particular paragraph. I can assure you that AAWW is not going to put a contract such as the DHL deal in jeopardy for a handful of pilots - especially not when they have an arbitrated merged seniority list that complies with the Polar CBA and ALPA merger policy, even if it doesn't jell with Robin's idea of how things should have gone.

I doubt there is a court in the land that would not agree that AAWW has been more than fair with the Polar group. Now it is time to put your big girl panties on and move forward.

....Or, you could win another battle, lose the war, lose your job, and go to court in a dozen years or so. Isn't it time to finish this merger and get on with making some real money?

[whaledriver101]

The only thing that held up the merger was the "time line fence" disagreement.

We realize all the Atlas pilots want to "get along & move on". Well,,, No fence,, no merger!!. Its as simple as that.

[mercpc9]

Well, it seems that we have strayed into something other than -400's and crews coming back.

I would suggest starting a thread on the merger. Oh wait, I think there has already been one or two.

As far as "time line fence", that was addressed by one of the previous arbitrations and this recent try during merger discussions is only another attempt to get what Polar didn't get in the previous seniority list arbitration.

Unless there is something specific to -400 and crews coming back I would suggest closing this one down.

[atlast]

Back to the thread. Atlas had four 400F conversion slots but it let them go. It couldn't complete financing on the 800F order with the increased debt load.

[WhaleFR8]

Back to the thread. Atlas had four 400F conversion slots but it let them go. It couldn't complete financing on the 800F order with the increased debt load. Today Ummm ... that was not the reason. The -400 conversions are just too expensive if you don't own the airframe or lease already. The cost to purchase the airframe, coupled with the cost of the conversion, could not be amortized in the life left on the airframes of any of the available passenger -400s. So, since they would not be able to make any money on the conversion, Atlas passed on their slots. That decsion was made well before the announcement of the -8F purchases. Who knows if financing played a part. It sure could have, but that was also during the regime change so who knows.

BTW - the company web-site categorically denies any new aircraft coming to the current Polar fleet.

[Furloughed]

Polar Air Cargo to recieve four 747-400F's, all pilots to return to service! Thats the rumor. Anyone confirm????

Back on topic -

400 conversions alive again with the 4 confirmed ( and possibly the 6 options as well) growth aircraft for Polar.

Training dept says Polar to be interviewing late summer or early fall.

[layinlow]

One of our bottom seniority FO's has been called back. What that means is that either Polar is getting more aircraft or the other FO's saw the writing on the wall and passed on returning.
Me, too old for anything and wouldn't give up this job and the subsequent pay cut, so I am just going to keep drawing the do nothing pay and resign only when I have no other choice.
Just a side note, in this and previous threads I keep hearing about the changes that are coming (ie plan b), as of yet none have happened, none. So don't believe anything until is actually happens.

[mercpc9]

Just a side note, in this and previous threads I keep hearing about the changes that are coming (ie plan b), as of yet none have happened, none. So don't believe anything until is actually happens.

I can certainly agree with your last sentence.

Looking at the up coming Atlas/Polar fleet schedules of who is doing what and reviewing the past arbitration awards, the proverbial plan "B" may come soon. Recall or Resigning may not be the first thing offered to you in this new light. Time will tell. Usually making fools of us all.

I would hedge your bets and keep the resumes floating around. Like most of us that have been in this industry for any length of time.

So to get back on topic, I don't see guys getting recalled for expansion at Polar. More than likely, attrition of existing guys is the more likely culprit in your example.

mercpc9http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/polar4400/logs.pl

[layinlow]

No need for me to hedge my bets merc. I am well ensconce in my present position making more than I ever did flying around the world bleary eyed. No more flying for me. Just cool beers by the lake at the end of the day. No Cato to put up with, and working with class management is my ticket now. In the meantime I just take what is given to me. Hey its free money, right?

[Heilhaavir]

Well Dr T, seems like a PO FE just got his 30 day notice of furlough. Maybe plan B has started? Anybody else in the know?

[mercpc9]

I have to recant a little on one of my first posts on this thread. The actual grievance was filed back in 2005, not recently as I said earlier. It has only been recently requested by the Polar MEC for expedited arbitration. My bad. The rest holds true and I expect things to happen sometime this month. I'm sorry the Polar MEC rejected the recent proposal to allow Polar crews to migrate over to Atlas until the the merger was done. It seems this has come full circle. Sucks how history repeats itself. Now to the other carrier.

I think Whale Rider is talking about the recent grievance filed by the Polar MEC Chairman Bobb Henderson making another attempt to get A/C and crews back via the grievance process. I can't remember which of the previous grievance arbitrations (Holden or Harris) that involved attempting similar that didn't get the A/C back but got the crews back pay until they are furloughed properly. The latter happening when the alliance flying stops and Polar gets an Atlas -200 to furlough off the remaining unnecessary Polar crews collecting checks while sitting at home. This is coming soon and is probably what prompted this new grievance to get what he didn't get in the other arbitration award.




I see your eye has gotten better then-hope the wallet does soon as well

Most of my life I have spent a lot money on women and drink. The rest I just wasted. :}:O

[layinlow]

PT
I didn't receive a notice so there is comment from me on it. I do know that Henderson et al has something up the sleeve though. Atlas is still playing the old game and it going back to the arbitrator. As for me, hey, I make more than I ever did at Polar, work less, and get a good night's sleep regularly. Why on God's green earth would I want to go back to that mess? Great job, great pay, good hours, and no Agnini, no Cato and no Atlas. Can't beat it.

[flite idol]

Easy now, Agnini`s OK! You cant` put him in the same sentence as "C"

[mercpc9]

It appears that my earlier supposition was correct on the subject of this thread. It takes awhile, but Bobb H. confirms a number of other things such as the arbitration previously discussed, where the aircraft/routes came from originally (which even the company management admits to them coming from Atlas originally) and the announced Polar furloughs. Wish that it didn't cost @170 Atlas crewmembers jobs and those now at Polar that were hired to fill them when they were taken from Atlas crew members during our negotiations, then subsequently returned to Atlas.

In streaming MP3 (http://cptaudio.com/mp3/polarvars06042007.m3u) or here via their phone VARS 1-800-253-5671.

[layinlow]

I wouldn't get the thong in a bunch. Just let the arbitrator make the decision. What is, is. the union and the company can posture all they want, but it comes down to Beckman's decision. So just sit back, take a deep breath, and wait. What I think, or what you think there merc9 makes no difference, just Mr. Becknan's, but given Cato''s track record..........

[Po Boy]

Have the notices gone out yet?

[layinlow]

The notices are out, but not to me. Hearings today with the arbitrator to determine if Atlas broke the agreement from last falls decision. Given Atlas's track record on this................

[Heilhaavir]

The notices are out, but not to me

That's probably cause you're on a RLOA and therefore not on the payroll :O

[layinlow]

there is a lot more to it than that P.B. The 4 who took the RLOA were told one thing when we accepted the RLOA, what happened was another. It is all in the language. Nothing else to be said until the ruling on this problem.

[mercpc9]

The notices are out, but not to me. Hearings today with the arbitrator to determine if Atlas broke the agreement from last falls decision. Given Atlas's track record on this................

How did this turn out?

[layinlow]

Can't tell you that just yet. The hearing was just heard. It is now nothing more than a passing interest to me and a possiblity of getting into Atlas's pockets a little deeper. Besides, Atlas now has to go through an IOSA audit they have a whole lot more problems that this little tiff; and believe me, the effort we are putting out to comply is amazing. And we have a real organization. Outfits like Atlas had better look out IOSA is coming to your neighborhood and the cost of not complying is just to great.
Finally, Merc, check out the last Polar VARS.

[Po Boy]

Atlas WILL pass the IOSA audit, if it fails, it's polars doing

[mercpc9]

Finally, Merc, check out the last Polar VARS.

Did that back on the 17th Polar VARS which didn't match what is viewed as the whole reality by all parties including ALPA National. The Polar VARS on the 28th just reinforced their collective thoughts of the previous VARS. I was curious how long it was going to be before Bobb H. mentioned the lawsuit. It has been out for awhile.

[layinlow]

I beg to differ with you PoBoy. It is obvious that you do not know anything about IOSA. If you want to brush up, Google IOSA and download the ISM. In it you will see the requirements of 8 sections that Atlas must pass in order to get onto the registry; Organization, Flight, Dispatch, Cargo, Security, Maintenance, Ground Handling, and Cabin. In there are checklists called ISARP (IOSA Safety and Recommended Practices) and with that are Guidance Materials that must be complied with. Who AAWH owns has nothing to do with it.
Now here is the scenario. On the date of the audit 5 or 6 auditors are going to show up at Atlas and conduct a 5 day audit. That will include a flight and a training event. Depending on how bad Atlas is (and believe me everyone gets hit) Atlas may get a temporary reprieve and have 12 months into which fix the findings. But the the findings must be fixed prior to the 12 months and be inspected again so the effective time limit is really 10 months. Being at Purchase a for quite a bit and flying the line, I can tell you they are woefully short on passing any IOSA audit. By the way, only a Managing Director or above can answer the ISARP. No underlings except to provide the written and electronic materials.
Now, here is the kicker. If you care to read through the entire ISARP, and think about it, it is going to cost a pot full of cash and major reorganization to even get close to satifying the ISARP. You cannot even begin to appreciate the complexity of IOSA. We have over 5000 pilots and a training center so large we have our own electric substation on property. All of our sims are level C or above, mostly above. We have a simulator engineering department second to none and an entire floor of engineers that tweek the programs and write software for the sims. Since I have been here, we have never, ever had a sim go down for maintenance that did not have an engineer there within 5 minutes. We have never ever had a training event cancelled either. That is our standard. Hell, the managing director of sim engineering gets upset if he finds a trash can full! And I'm talking about on one small section of one ISARP. Try looking at all the sections. And we are still in major work getting to the IOSA standard. Section after section, there is a major work in progress going on here and I am am the thick of it so I know what is what with IOSA.
Atlas is going to have a major undertaking and expense on their part. They could pass and IOSA audit but whether they have to ability or desire, not to mention the tons of money required, to do so remains to be seen.
So before you make off the wall comments, better check the facts.

[Lowrider2]

Atlas is spending the money and has a team at this moment preparing for the inspection.

[layinlow]

I am well aware of that lowrider. What I am trying to say is that if Atlas wants to be on the IOSA registry. When they get the final report and what it will take and the cost, sticker shock will set in.
. Not only that but the ISARP is very clear on compliance and the rules of the game are much different than the operation Atlas runs and will require infrastructure changes. Will Atlas have the desire to do it. Entire new departments have to be created, hiring increased in support, many manuals required to the revised and many more written. Electronic infrastructures created, on and on. If UPS and FEDX spent a much time as they have on this will Atlas. And FEDX and UPS are one hell of a lot more organized than the AAWH outfit.
IOSA isn't regulatory. But is you want to fly into Chile after Jan. you better be on the registry. Also China, Dubai, the UAE, and many other countrires are heading that way.
I really suggest you look at the ISARP and see what is entailed and then take a good look at your operation.

[Po Boy]

It will happen, Atlas has the resources. Polar on the other hand, if they were still running as the money losing carrier they were, prior to being acquired by Atlas Air Holdings, I would have some serious questions about their ability to be compliant.

[mercpc9]

It will happen, Atlas has the resources. Polar on the other hand, if they were still running as the money losing carrier they were, prior to being acquired by Atlas Air Holdings, I would have some serious questions about their ability to be compliant.

Ouch!

I imagine they will soon be profitable now that they have an agreement via the holding company (that 2nd holding company formed under AAWWH) to sell a large volume of their empty space Polar has on their flights to DHL. I bet the 49% sale helped stop the bleeding a bit also.

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/polar4400/logs.pl

[layinlow]

Just to make a point, it is Atlas that is being audited by IOSA, not Polar

[B74flyer]

Actually you are not correct. Both Atlas and Polar will be undergoing the IOSA inspection at the same time.

[layinlow]

Noted. I am just looking at my calender of coming audits

[WhaleDriver]

So, any new -400's at Polar? Thought not.......... Looks like the hiring was for attrition, like others predicted here back in May.

To clean up some other matters, it appears Merc was correct in his observation that Polar did indeed want the rights to move with the certificate if sold, and they were denied by Holden. So it appears the Atlas MEC was correct in taking its stand against the Polar MEC demand that it be included in the premerger protocols.

From page 24 of the transcripts:

This is the third paragraph of conditions and restrictions by Mr. Katz, the Polar lawyer:


"We have a condition that gives a right to return to Polar pilots so that if they've lost a captain seat, for instance, they can return to that job within a specified period of time, ahead of somebody from the Atlas pilot group who isn't in that job. And we have a provision that we think is important but may never be used, and because the operating certificates have not been combined and may not be combined even if there's an operational merger, the company will have a theoretical ability to spin off the valuable scheduled routes and service of Polar and sell it to somebody, even after the merged list and merged contracts are done."


None of this wording was in the final findings, so there may have been trade-offs that we are unaware of given to Polar for not allowing this condition. As such, denial of this provision or any form of it, by the Atlas MEC was the right thing to do.

[L-38]

Denial by Atlas's MEC or not, it appears that today's tussle is over Polar's magic bullet - it's negotiated scope clause. What will become of the scope's job protecting intent? I doubt that it will simply be thrown out the window.

Polar does have a scope . . . Atlas labor does not.

[layinlow]

And are they ever jealous!

[v1andgo]

Dear layinlow,

Or should I say former FE Bill Th. of Polar Air Cargo. Yes you did get furlough, because of the economical decision to park the Classic. But then you resigned from Polar because of your employment with FedEx. More money and bankers hours, not bad congratulation, it is great to see someone being successful. But please stop bragging about receiving pay from AAWH for sitting at home when in reality you are not. Is it really that difficult for a former Polar guy to have more class than Bobb and Robin? I expected more from you. Your misrepresentation of facts is disgusting and does not befit a PhD, unless this is just another manifestation of your immodesty.

BTW the IOSA is on track and ahead of schedule. This should make you happy; knowing that your fellow Polar friends will have a secure and prosperous future as Atlas Crews flying to China, UAE, Japan, and Europe.
Other than that you don’t have a dog left in the fight. Move on and maybe give the truth a fair chance.

[JohnGalt]

I would like to add my 1 cent opinion on the ongoing tri-feud between AAWWH, the Polar union, and the Atlas union concerning the “merger.”

Its obvious the Polaroids do not want to merge with the Atlas folks, primarily due to the scab issue caused by Atlas pilots crossing the “line” during Polar’s strike in 2005 and “Polar contract scope issues.”

What is not so obvious is why do the AAWWH/Atlas guys want to so desperately merge w/PACW and create a “crew-leasing” subsidiary under AAWWH?

Simply put, job security----Recent Japan-US bilateral route authority awards.

……24 Sep 07----Today it was announced that Polar Air Cargo Worldwide, Inc. (Polar) will expand operations in Japan following the conclusion of recent U.S.-Japan bilateral civil aviation negotiations.

In addition to an existing six weekly frequencies to Tokyo with related service to one destination beyond Japan, Polar has been granted another six frequencies to Japan, excluding Tokyo, with the right to fly to two foreign destinations beyond this new point. Including the new rights, Polar can now serve a combined total of 12 frequencies in Japan and 18 frequencies beyond. Polar will also have the latitude to choose the new destination in Japan, as well as the points outside of the country…..

This is why DHL has bought 49% of PACW, guaranteed 40% capacity of all Polar flights for 20 years, and wants the other 51% ownership if/when the US-EU “open skies” negotiations (currently in progress) allow for 100% foreign ownership of “US cargo” airlines.

Polar is poised for growth via DHL wanting to expand its international express operations from Asia to US in 2008. But how does Polar grow? Either separately as a stand alone company controlled by DHL or in partnership (DHL/AAWWH) as a subsidiary of AAWWH who wants to use Atlas Air as an ACMI carrier for PACW.

Atlas Air, as an ACMI carrier, lives and dies by the contract. Currently DOD is or will be in the decline airlift mode. Emirates, Atlas’s largest customer, is buying its own freighters and dropping -200 service to numerous destinations. Unless Atlas can generate more contracts with other carriers, it is likely it will be in the retrenching/downsizing mode. Remember also L-38’s post, Atlas Air can’t fly Polar routes in Japan. It can only do so if there is “one crew force flying under both certificates.” Hence, the extreme desire upon the part of AAWWH and Atlas Air folks to consumate a merger with Polar ASAP and create a “crew leasing subsidiary.”

The wild card----Harbert Management Inc/partners now own about 55% of AAWWH. The banks, who got 100% ownership of AAWWH upon emergence from bankruptcy are in the process of selling off their entire inheritance (in lieu of debt). Harbert is a private equity firm that “slices, dices, and restructures” mismanaged, poorly run, undervalued companies. It has already demonstrated their intent. Buy AAWWH (an undervalued asset), cut a deal with DHL (49% PACW) to the legal limit “currently” allowed by US law, install DHL mgt at Polar (CEO, CFO), and wait for further developments (??100% foreign ownership law change??).

If Polar is spun off by Harbert to DHL, Polar fleet and crew size can only grow----at the detriment to Atlas Air, their ACMI business, and their crews.

So it’s a race of time-----US law change on 100% foreign-ownership before/after possible merger of the two pilot unions and creation of a “crew-leasing” company at AAWWH that will service both PACW business and Atlas Air business.

When the pie is cut by Harbert, the Polaroids want it all, the Atlas guys want a slice.

IMHO :hmm:

[mercpc9]

Its obvious the Polaroids do not want to merge with the Atlas folks, primarily due to the scab issue caused by Atlas pilots crossing the “line” during Polar’s strike in 2005 and “Polar contract scope issues.”

It appears you have been listening to your Polar MEC's story again. Why not, we shouldn't let facts get in the way of truth. So when Bobb Henderson tucks you into bed tonight telling you about the big bad Atlas crewmembers and how they are the root to all of your evils -- don't let the facts LOCATED HERE 2/3 way down (http://pws.prserv.net/usinet.cpt747/) confuse you. It's much easier listening to a good story from a person who has a lot of self interest of his own survival than the truth.

Everyone has their opinion and you stated plenty of it. You pretty much covered it with your thought stated towards the end:
the Polaroids want it all
This has been pretty much the truth since day one of Polar's purchase by Atlas. I can't say much more.

[layinlow]

Finally someone tells it like it is. With the exception of paragraph two. That is all water under the bridge. Good post.