Must see for EK pilots - Income protection issue

[blueside^]

If you had doubts about the Topcover income protection plan, then take a look at this thread on Fragrant Habour.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=276853

After that contact EPC LIPS for your insurance needs.

[mensaboy]

This might be the most important posting on pprune for EK pilots. I can remember when LIPS was about to become an option for EK pilots and suddenly I started getting lots of information from TOPCOVER regarding how wonderful and how well underwritten they were. It made me quite suspicious as well when someone (and I forget who he was) fired off a letter to all of us in an attempt to make us wary of LIPS.

The larger the insurance company, the more underwritten it is and the more lawyers it has, the less likely you will ever see any compensation if you are entitled to it.

About a year ago a member of my family passed on and to this day the insurance company has not paid one cent in spite of them receiving premiums for over 40 years from the deceased. It is the same pattern described about TOPCOVER in the post on the other forum. Delay, ignore and in the end it comes down to getting a lawyer, thereby reducing the payout benefit.

Its none of my business what other pilots at EK do, but I truly believe that LIPS is a good option and TOPCOVER is a total waste of money.

[atiuta]

What was that John Grisham book called?

[fo4ever]

No more Top Cover for me.

EPC´ much better

Cheers

[insurance_pedant]

The insurance market is littered with failed self-funded income protection schemes, why would the EK one be any different?

You are all clever chaps, open excel and do the sums yourself:

Worldwide average age of claimants = 49 years old. Under LIPS that's an 11 year payout at Dhs 25,000 per month.

For each claimant that is Dhs 300K per year, or a 'liability' for the scheme of Dhs 3.3m.

Premium Dhs 320 per pilot per month.

Average number of annual claims worldwide is 3 pilots in every 1000.

If you have 1000 pilots in the scheme the fund receives Dhs 3,840,000 per year in premium and pays out Dhs 900,000 per year in claims. The same for year two except that the claims are now Dhs 1.8m (it’s cumulative don't you know) and by year 4 the fund is paying out almost as much as it receives. Every year thereafter is the slippery slope into the abyss.

One thing for sure is that when you buy insurance you want the certainty that what you have bought can meet its financial commitments. With the LIPS scheme you don’t have that, if there is money in the pot, you’ll get paid, if not you won’t. Why anyone would place the future protection of themselves and their family into an unregulated and financially unsecured scheme is beyond my ken.

A couple of other things to consider; claims and benefits are submitted to and managed by the EPC committee, if that isn’t open to abuse I don’t know what is.

What deductions are made from the fund by the committee, administrators, trustees, managers? Do we know who is drawing what salaries and how much?

Are audited financial statements for the fund available?

The EPC/LIPS committee are selling an insurance product and managing an investment fund, activities for which they are neither licensed by the Ministry of Economy nor the Central Bank. According to the law of the UAE, they are operating illegally.

Topcover may not be perfect but it is a 1000 times better bet than LIPS. AIU will be around a lot, lot longer paying out claims than the LIPS fund will be.

[Vorsicht]

I think the point is that TopCover are proven frauds, LIPS has yet to be held to account.

by the way, every insurance fund works the same. To be viable they must receive more in premiums than they pay out in claims. So it may mean that LIPS will have to adjust premiums when a claim trend establishes. It doesn't mean it is not viable.

The bit about not being licenced or trained to handle vast sums of money i totally agree with and is a major concern. Open to abuse for sure.

V

[dunerider]

Dear I.P.,
I have also been paying into LIPS for some time and have been concerned about accountability etc. I also have concerns about when LIPS will be audited. Also for your interest you will find on the EPC homepage that it states that LIPS will be administered only by the EPC President, Treasurer and the Fund Administrator. Why don't you just write to the director and put your concerns to him, as i will be doing? All of this conjecture and misrepresentation is not conducive to seeking the truth, or is it that you work for the opposition?

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

At worst Topcover are frauds, and their track record is dreadful. Perhaps IP would like to comment on the way some cases have been handled??? And don't bother just saying that you can't comment on xyz case.

Lips is a new kid on the block, i support it, and yes there is questions, but lets agree with this scheme ya get something back at the end anyhow!!

SyB :zzz:

[ZQN]

I see in the latest newletter that the EPC are now distancing themselves from LIPS.

QUOTE 'We would like to advise all LIPS members that the EPC has nothing to do with the LIPS Scheme aside from publishing it on the EPC website. All enquiries should be directed to ....'

Interesting that one of the Directors is also the EPC Chairman.

[Vorsicht]

EPC can distance themselves all they like, but as long as MP is on both comittees and it is advertised through EPC, a significant conflict of interest exists and will be a problem should EPC's independence ever need to be tested in court. And remember as paid up members of a club, it is likely that all members will also be liable if there is a major financial problem.

V

[Flying Spag Monster]

Come on Vorsicht that is a long bow to draw, members of EPC don't have a finacial liability with LIPS, where do you get that from. LIPS is a trust structure, the liability rests with the trust. I agree with you about the handling of large sums of money but suggest anyone who has a concern contact the administrators. Insurance companies have one aim...never make a pay out, they employ many lawyers to find ways to avoid it and AIU are no different.

[a380megacamel]

Top Cover may not be perfect but at least it has a history. The EPC LIPS scheme (or is it MP's LIPS scheme) is untested. I didn't leave Top Cover to join the EPC LIPS as Top Cover is legally sold and managed by professionals while LIPS ... ?????

I know that volunteers run the EPC committee and we owe them a debt of gratitude for the thankless job they do. However, I fear that they have been hoodwinked into promoting LIPS without sufficient research or Due Diligence.

Take care that this doesn't bite us all on the proverbial ass.

[Panama Jack]

A bit of a concern to us at Gulf Air also then, since we also use Top Cover. :eek:

[ZQN]

What is the legal status of the EPC? Since my club membership is deducted from my salary, Is the club part of EK?

[Vorsicht]

Yes it is a long bow to draw, but remember this is a country where a flight attendant was jailed because her husband was found dead in the bath. She found him there after returning from a layover. The fact that she was verifiably not in the country at time of death was not considered.

She was released at a later date.

Remember also that businessmen, who had committed no crime whatsoever, have been held because someone they were associated with committed a crime.

All i am saying is that there is more than a casual link between the EPC and LIPS. Who knows how a Dubai court would view it.

V

[gatvol2006]

You have all been had ... eheh:}

[insurance_pedant]

Interesting, especially as the LIPS sites states:

3.1 The Scheme shall be administered by the Committee which shall be appointed by EPCL and, unless determined otherwise by EPCL, shall be made up of the EPC President, Treasurer and the Scheme Administrator. The Committee which shall act for and on behalf of EPCL shall be entitled to reasonable remuneration for its services, such remuneration and any expenses reasonably incurred shall be recoverable from the assets of the Scheme.

[a380megacamel]

I see on the EPC website they state -

"The EPC and the Committee of the EPC has NOTHING - Repeat NOTHING - to do with LIPS. "

So why is the EPC President also on the scheme administration committee? and more importantly why is he also a director of EPCL and receiving a share of the 12 000dhs monthly expenses?

Is it true that EPCL is an abbreviation for a offshore company 'EMIRATES PILOTS CLUB LIMITED' registered in the British Virgin Islands?

So the EPC has NOTHING to do with LIPS do they. Don't be so naive lads.

[mensaboy]

Well if in fact EPC does have something to do with LIPS, then good. If they manage LIPS as well as they do the EPC, then I am even more confident that LIPS is for me.

I will admit that I got out of TOPCOVER based on my viewpoint of that scheme and then along came LIPS. Having a close relative who is intimately involved in the insurance business, I asked for his advice regarding these matters and to my surprise, he advised me to select LIPS. He subtley admitted that many large insurance companies spend most of their resources recruiting new policy holders, advertising and in litigation. Sadly a good portion of the legal matters deal directly with verifying and often times declining or at least minimizing pay outs.

It is just the nature of the business.

So now I have experienced 2 strikes against large insurance companies. One being the devious technique of ignoring a family members claim after the death of their spouse (hoping that someone of the age of 80 might not be aware enough to persistently follow through with matters during a traumatic time in their life) and also an insiders true viewpoint of the very business for which he is involved.

This is not to say that LIPS will be any different, but I'm inclined to believe that there is far more chances of it.
Once again I will reiterate that this is just my personal experiences with large insurance companies and I am not in any way criticizing someone for selecting TOPCOVER.

[BIKKERDENNAH]

I have been contributing to LIPS for a little while now. And something concerns me.

The scheme has been up and running for well over a year now and the company announces a balance of ONLY one million Dirhams in all that time??

Just basic maths here based on 400 pilots for only one year! 320 by 400 per month by 12 equals 1536000 aed per year so whats happened? unless that was a typo on the EPC website.

Has the investment choice for the funds gone AURY?? last time i checked most markets on a major bull run!! so half a million down in the pot?? What gives?:confused:

[Backwater]

Duh. 400 members didn't join on day one. the membership has built up gradually over the year. If you looked at average membership over the first year, it looks about right. Thanks to the LIPS team.

[a380megacamel]

I spoke to a lawyer friend this week and in his view 'something smells fishy' about how LIPS was sold and promoted to the membership by committee members with a financial interest in the scheme. He says this a potentially a conflict of interest and could land the committee in hot water if an individual decided to sue over a failed claim.

He also has concern with the lack of transparency of management of the scheme and legal status of the club.

[atiuta]

Three posts and a very strong opinion on LIPS?

What's in it for you Mr 380?

Perhaps you bat for the other team?

The more that people like you bag LIPS, the more determined I am to see it work. I know it has limitations but I have no faith in Top Cover. Why? They only introduced monthly payments when faced with competition, they provided a "big fat zero" on customer support. The only mail I ever saw was to collect a premium. Not to forget the small matter of term benefit introduction, it was to age 60 now reduced to 5 years. Top Cover, stick it where it hurts, I'll do without thank you.

[Emma Rate]

I find it hard to comment on whether one scheme is better than the other (I am a member of one and it just seems easier not to switch).

What I found surprising in the discussion though is that nobody seems to think of the possibility of a member trying to con the scheme by claiming to be sick (or at least a lot more sick than he/she really is as the payout is more attractive than to keep working??). In that case I would want my scheme administrators to be as difficult as possible.

Is it really always the 'big bad company screwing the individual'. I don't really like to think of any of my colleagues ever claiming insurance money in bad faith, but I don't want to be naive either.

[a380megacamel]

atiuta of course I'm batting for the other team. What's in it for me you ask - Zip, I have no financial interest in TopCover or AIG. I am just a happy policy holder.

Con men love people like you. I have a bunch of emails from Nigeria I could forward to you. ;)

[atiuta]

You received my IPO then?:D

[insurance_pedant]

I'm curious:

the front page of myepc.org states that

The EPC and the Committee of the EPC has NOTHING - Repeat NOTHING - to do with LIPS. The Committee does not endorse nor support any loss of licence insurance.
As a service to the EPC members, the EPC assists in the salary deduction for the convenience of EPC members only.
To repeat - the EPC Committee has no involvement whatsoever with the management and administration of the LIPS Scheme.

and yet on the LIPS page it states:

3.1 The Scheme shall be administered by the LIPS Management Team which shall be appointed by EPCL and, unless determined otherwise by EPCL, shall be made up of the EPC President, Treasurer and the Scheme Administrator. The LIPS Management Team which shall act for and on behalf of EPCL shall be entitled to reasonable remuneration for its services, such remuneration and any expenses reasonably incurred shall be recoverable from the assets of the Scheme.

so which is it?


LIPS/EPC are either acting as insurance brokers selling an insurance product or they are acting as finance brokers selling an investment related product, activities for which they are not licensed by the UAE Ministry of Economy nor the Central Bank.

Can anyone shed any light on this?

[Flying Spag Monster]

I_P, you are a sh#t stirer, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with you but your post has only one aim and that is to undermine a product that you don't agree with but which apparently 400 people do. It is probabley no coincidence that it is policy renewal time for TopCover and you decide to join Pprune and start posting against the LIPS scheme. You sound well enough informed on the topic, if you want to know the answer to your question, the one you keep asking, then go and ask the people you are so eager to criticise. ie the EPC or LIPS administrators. If your favoured product is so good it will stand on its merits, some 400 of your colleagues have chosen another product, presumabley after waying up the pros and cons, they don't need you damaging their attempts to establish an alternative. It borders on commercial espionage.

[insurance_pedant]

F-S-M, I have raised a valid question and it hasn't been answered. And yes I have raised it with EPC.

Maybe I am sh*t stirring, but if you can explain to me how that would be any different to what atiuta, mensaboy, vorsicht, sheikh-yr-bootie and particularly blueside are doing then I would be really fascinated to hear it.

In fact, whilst you are at it, perhaps you could also explain how my actions that you perceive to "criticise, damage the reputation and to undermine a product" differs from what all the other negative comments about Topcover are trying to do on this thread.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I agree with you that it is probably no coincidence that it is coming up for the Topcover renewal and blueside starts this thread and ends with "After that contact EPC LIPS for your insurance needs".

I joined this forum to bring another side of the argument and to hopefully point out that whilst Topcover might not be perfect, neither is LIPS and we all need to make informed decisions and not ones based on anonymous postings of some disgruntled CX pilot in HK.

I_P

[ShockWave]

Lips is a great idea but the fact that it is managed by the EPC and or pilots should be enough of a warning for every one. No regulations, no training, no guarantees, no bloody way!

[Flying Spag Monster]

I_P, fair enough, I just felt there was a difference between critising a product following an actual complaint and scare mongering. Perhaps the promised LIPS report (next month?) might answer these Qs??.

[Yossarian]

Let's hope it does. This is obviously a fairly emotive issue, understandably, as our futures are at stake here. Noone wants to think they will lose their licence and their career, but on the off chance it does happen, we take out insurance. The insurance is our back stop, and we don't want to believe our back stop is flawed. After all it is our last chance.

I have to admit that my preference is for a fully regulated insurance scheme. I am sure Top Cover is not perfect, but given the circumstances of our employment, they give me greater assurance. It is true the coverage has decreased to 5 years from what it was previously until age 55. That was a major blow. I have approached other major insurance companies for a comparable scheme and have been laughed off.

But that is what makes me uneasy about LIPS. I am very certainly no financial guru. What happens to LIPS when the first guy starts claiming? Probably not a lot. But given the exponential growth of the airline and the number of guys we are hiring, can we be sure that any abuse of the system can be properly tackled. Theoretically, we could be in a position of having to fund guys for 20 years or more, and as the numbers increase, will LIPS be able to track these guys for fraudulent claims effectively? Expecting this from two appointed people is a bit much.

With another thousand pilots to come, plus or minus, how are they going to feel about financing the after EK careers of former (tired and pi$$ed off) pilots? How is this to be regulated? Who begins to decide whether my long lasting hearing loss is more important than Joe Blogg's finger amputation or John Does' severe fatigue?

[a380megacamel]

Is it true that EK have pulled the plug on the EPC LIPS salary deductions from next month? Has someone in EK legal finally woken up to the fact that this scheme has been illegally promoted and sold?

[Murrenfan]

Hey Megacamel, could you please confirm why LIPS has ben illegaly sold and promoted?

[EGGW]

Yes please do elaborate! People want to know if this is BS or otherwise.

EGGW

[airvlad]

Excuse my ignorance, I was wondering what would happen theoretically if you buy both AIG and LIPS and be in position to claim benefits?

[a380megacamel]

EGGW and Murrenfan

Because UAE Federal Law No.9 of 1984 says so.

Mr.AB is not a licensed broker and the UAE Ministry of Economy strictly regulates the Insurance industry. Imagine the fraud in this country if they didn't.....

[ZQN]

380

I think you'll find that it is the EPC that is pulling the plug on salary deductions and not EK. I'm told a recent consultation with a lawyer has the committee very concerned about their own personal liability in this potential fiasco.

And what ever happened with the promised LIPS report?

[ernestkgann]

It seems all that has been said is true but if AB isn't a licenced insurance broker, neither is NF.

[kingoftheslipstream]

Fellow EK pilots

There's nothing on the EPC site to indicate that monthly payments via EK payroll deduction will no longer continue.

As to the statements posted regarding the overlap betwixt EPC principals and the LIPS principals... if this is true it is disgraceful and should be the subject of prosecution for fraud. This is a very serious allegation and a very serious sitiuation. There will be consequences...

I submit that statements on this thread should be limited to fact, not opinion. I know it's a rumour site, but libel and slander laws are sometimes applied in the UAE. Be very careful. If it turns out that there have been transgressions, I'll be first in line at the lawyers' office and I hope there's a bunch 'a ya there with me... until we have something concrete, let's speak cautiously, lest we find ourselves in hot water...

keep on bloggin' in the free world!
k-o-t-s

[Fix Info]

Gents,

I always found it somewhat bizarre that there's a cat-fight between the LIPS-people, and the Top Cover folks. It's almost like Apple-owners. They immediately become pro-bono salesment for Apple Computers, almost like it's a cult of sorts.

As far as insurance goes, I kinda wonder where the other 1000 pilots get their insurance. It can't be true that the majority of EK-pilots are uninsured? That one of the most investment-keen employee groups in the world don't take the possibility of license-loss into account.

What are the alternatives? Does any of the IALPA-unions offer insurance? Any other regular insurance companies? Instead of throwing pies at each other, we should look for alternatives. It seems to me that none of the products offered are fault-free.

I think it's good that somebody is trying though, and if they make a little money from premiums, I don't care. Each good product need a reasonably well renumerated leader, and as long as I get an appropriate level of benefits from the product, I'm happy.

Once more: What are the alternatives? I would truly like to know how all of you have dealt with the issue pre-EK. Company schemes, LLoyds, etc?

[dessertdude]

Lets face it guys, you gotta be a bit naive to think that you can have a lost of income protection scheme for 320 aed a month:ugh:. Any idea what the costs are back home. Being a bit greedy?. Don't you think that if it had any chance ,the boys at BA, AF, KLM etc. or there unions had been there before. BALPA and IFALPA and many unions runs schemes which are al run and underwritten by big insurance companys. They just get bigger discounts thats it.
Got a LOL with IFALPA and an Income protection back home. There are many schemes around at the homefront, do your homework.
By the way I don't think NF is a broker, he will just get you in touch with HSBC. I think they are running that scheme. I guess AB's intentions are oke. Good for him to at least give it a go:ok:, and lets hope everbody gets there money back:).

[Not from here]

If you look at the Rules you will see that the scheme is actual Called
“EMIRATES PILOTS LOSS OF INCOME PROTECTION SCHEME”,
So it is actual EPLIPS not EPCLIPS, the company that administrates the management of the scheme is EPCL (Emirates Pilots Club Limited) which I believe is registered in the BVI. EPC has no interest or control of EPCL.

[Flying Spag Monster]

NFM, you are correct and I think this is the source of most of the confusion linking LIPS to EPC. There was an overlap in administrators but this is no longer the case.

What is equally bizarre is that we have 400 plus workmates who are trying to establish an alternative to mainstream products and there are other workmates posting here in an attempt to destroy that??? I don't get it! Talk of lawyers, UAE Federal laws ... what is your motivation, to try and anonymously impress people with you knowledge/bravado? I don't claim to know a great deal if anything about UAE laws but AB is not acting as an insurance broker as far as I can see. He is an administrator of an off-shore registered trust that just happens to distribute money if one of its contributors loses their license. He does not offer insurance/financial advise or take commissions from a third party for referring clients. If he and others receive some remuneration, I ask why shouldn't they? It is just as farcical to call NF a broker. I would think the UAE laws have no jurisdiction over a BVI registered trust... I recently invested in a scheme in Europe that provides funding to new start up businesses, some of them in a country not very well liked here, this is against UAE fed law ...so what! that's why the scheme is not registered here...

You can argue that insurance offered by the big companies is more secure etc, and no doubt it is, but the way I look at it, if a LIPS member lost their license today and at the same time LIPS folded then there is more than enough cash to pay the claimant their 25K/month for at least 5 years which is more than the current competition. If that member was not me then I have lost nothing because it "could" have been me. I move on to another scheme knowing I had comparable or better cover during the past period.

But I won't be able to if people keep posting crap that causes nervousness amongst LIPS members and discourages others from joining. Share information by all means so guys can make informed decisions, but lawyers.....come on.

Disclosure: obviously I am a LIPS contributor.

[a380megacamel]

Not from here

You are wrong, If you have another look at the rules you will see that you must be a member of the EPC to join LIPS.

2.1 Any person in the full-time employ of the ___Emirates Airlines and who is a paid up member of the Emirates Pilots Club

You will also see from the rules that the Scheme is administered by a committee that includes the EPC President and Treasurer.

3.1 The Scheme shall be administered by the Committee which shall be appointed by EPCL and, unless determined otherwise by EPCL, shall be made up of the EPC President, Treasurer and the Scheme Administrator.

The scheme was promoted in the UAE, paid from salary deductions in the UAE to UAE residents who are employees of UAE company and who are members of a UAE based club by a UAE resident who is unlicenced (and therefore unregulated), to act as an insurance broker.

Talk of UAE laws having no duristiction over a BVI trust are irrelevant. What was sold. To who, by who and where was it sold is the issue.

Disclosure: obviously I am not a LIPS contributer.

[ernestkgann]

380camel I reckon that's garbage and if you don't have a vested interest then I don't know why it matters to you. If you have an interest declare it.

[EGGW]

You took the words right outta my mouth, VESTED INTERESTS! I cannot see any other reason for your posts. 380dude

EGGW

[a380megacamel]

ernest and EGGW

As members of the EPC, we all have a vested interest.

[ShockWave]

Guys, the importance of insurance can not be over stated.

If you have a problem and need to claim, who is going to ensure they will pay you what you are owed? and for how long?
If you don't work for EK anymore you will not be living here, so how will you guarantee that you get your money sent to you in your home country?
If there is a dispute who or how would you resolve it within the islamic legal system of the UAE?
To what rules are Lips being held accountable?
Will Lips still be around in ten years after you have been medically retired and need to rely on your insurance?

I don't have any of the above answers. Perhaps some of the above do??

For me, insuring with the EPC/Lips guys is a huge gamble with a much higher risk. Hence their efforts to offer you more to attract your business.
Do not be fooled, it is a business! the guys running it want to make money from it just like any other insurance employee wants his commission.
The fact that they may deserve or have earned your money is not the issue, but promoting a legally secured, guaranteed product is!
I am not convinced that they are able to offer such a product.

It's a matter of how lucky you feel! Place your bets where you will but don't ever gamble with money you can't afford to loose.:(

[Not from here]

Not wishing to get into a slanging match, but what I have written is NOT wrong.
The Scheme is called
“EMIRATES PILOTS LOSS OF INCOME PROTECTION SCHEME”
It is managed by a company called EPCL which is registered in the BVI
Which The EPC has no interest or control of.
These 3 points are all fact.
The make up of the local management team I did not mention, however since you have brought it up, it does say
3.1 The Scheme shall be administered by the Committee which shall be appointed by EPCL and, unless determined otherwise by EPCL, shall be made up of the EPC President, Treasurer and the Scheme Administrator.
It has been determined other wise! I understand there is no member of the current EPC committee that is on the EPLIPS management team, a simple call to the office solved that one.
It would also seem logical to be a Emirates Pilot if you wish to join a Pilots Loss of Income scheme!!!
Not sure what your game is 380 but your continued bagging of the EPC committee who have always worked for the best interest of the members, is a bit offside
If you do not like the scheme don’t join but leave the EPC out of it.

[ernestkgann]

As an EPC member I agree that we should be concerned as to the repercussions for the club. My point was whether or not LIPS would have any culpability because of the UAE connection as it has been created offshore. If your concern is for the club, fair enough, if your lobbying from the perspective of another busines then I think you should say so.
My problem with LIPS has always been oversight. Still no end of year, independent auditors report. Things can be shonky enough in the UAE let alone with off shore accounts and the LIPS administrators aren't helping by not providing info on what's going on.
Most airlines have loss of income insurance through their common pilot's organisations (that's a euphemism for union or association) but as we only have a club then I would see it as a natural place for a legal, practical and audited scheme. I'm not sure whether ours is and often if it's too good to be true it turns out that way.

[emratty]

ShockWave has hit the nail on the head with that post. Loss of licence is so important to us all and that is the reason i have not or ever will take up the insurance from LIPS as it stands at the moment ( i am not with Topcover either)
The EPC have been told by lawyers the scheme is NOT legal and have therefore stopped the salary deductions going through them.
I am all for getting the best deal with insurance cover, however to set up a scheme that does not have any form of registration or regulation in the UAE is quite frankly stupid.

[ShockWave]

quote: It would also seem logical to be a Emirates Pilot if you wish to join a Pilots Loss of Income scheme!!!

Yes an emirates pilot! but why must they be an EPC member?
Not every pilot in Emirates is a member of the EPC! and to exclude them (if they wanted to be insured by you) is coercive and promotes the belief that the EPC is in fact running the show and involved at a higher level than what you say.

[ernestkgann]

Probably because only EPC members could get a salary deduction.

[a380megacamel]

Not from here
I have never bagged the EPC committee. They do a fantastic job and I made a point of personally thanking each of them at the last AGM.

The concern I raised was the potential liability each of the committee members and the EPC membership faced by their (and our) association with LIPS. The EPC and EPC committee were used to give creditability to the scheme. The scheme was originally called and promoted as EPC LIPS. With the EPC attempting to distance themselves, the Club part has been removed. The fact remains that you must be a EPC member to join. The BVI company that the scheme administrator registered is only referred to as EPCL. The actual name of the company is Emirates Pilots Club Limited. Food for thought.

I am told the EPC committee have now taken legal advice and I assume this will be conveyed to the EPC members soon.

For the record, I am not a huge fan of Top Cover. I only have it because there is nothing better. If LIPS was properly managed and structured, I would have been one of the first to sign up.

[atiuta]

Personally, I won't be making any insurance decision based on these forums.

Good for gossip but that's about it.

[ZQN]

Very wise atiuta.

I'm waiting for the long overdue LIPS audit and the outcome from the E.P.C. lawyers meeting before I decide myself :) I will not decide based on these posts.

Does anyone know when the LIPS audit was supposed to be published? Why the delay? Should we be concerned?

Is there provision to refund the funds held by Emirates Pilots Club Ltd if the scheme is closed by the authorities or by the members?

[ShockWave]

Probably not, what's left over is profit and the directors could dispose of it as they wish. As a member of the scheme, the only way you will see your money again is if you claim. That is no different from any insurance.

[a380megacamel]

From todays email to the EPC membership

We have taken professional advice on the matter and after a lot of consideration it has been decided by the Committee, and in consultation with (_ _) of LIPS, that we will stop LIPS salary deductions. This will be effective for the September 2007 salary.

[kingoftheslipstream]

Well, the email has been posted by EPC, the salary deduction's 're gone.

This is gonna be interestin' I reckon... :suspect:

k-o-t-s

[TangoUniform]

Concerning LIPS, does anyone have any information regarding claims? That is, to anyone's knowledge have any claims for loss of license/medical been made? And if so, have they been paid?

[Jumeirah James]

If AB set this up (kudos for the extra pocket money it brings in), how did MP become involved? Surely he's not just there to add the official tick to the scheme? Be interesting to know :confused:

Also begs the question as to what the 'Directors' are being paid to 'manage the scheme'. As I don't yet subscribe, is there a clear and open policy as to who gets paid what out of the monthly donations?


Cheers

[a380megacamel]

And still no response from the scheme administrator. This is now becoming a worry. Just as concerning is the recently disclosure that the scheme is administered by a committee of just the scheme administrator as the EPC do not want any involvement.

I wonder what the payment option is going to be now that the EPC has stopped salary deductions? Cash or cheques into AB's personal bank account? Don't be silly:rolleyes:

[Hook]

Sorry to butt in, but what concern is all this to you megacamel, if you're not a member of Lips? Granted, an explanation from Lips would be in order, but certainly not to you.

[airbus757]

Cut the crap Hook. Just because he may or may not be a lips member has nothing to do with it. Maybe he wants the info now because he is considering it. duh!

7

[Hook]

Maybe he wants the info now because he is considering it. duh!
a quick trawl through his previous posts would dictate otherwise, dear fellow......

[ZQN]

I agree with megacamel that it's a concern that the LIPS administrator has been so silent. What are the payment options now? There is no way I would pay into a personal bank account. That would just be stupid.

[dessertdude]

Do you have any idea, into which account you have been paying uptill now?:hmm:

[Flying Spag Monster]

DD I guess they don't....

I put my car in for a service yesterday and the garage dude hasn't called me and said it is ready. Any one here know if its ready? Did they find a problem with it?? Will they accept a cheque when I pay the bill??? maybe I should start another post here on Pprune about my car. Oh I know.. I will call the garage and ask them direct, now there's a good idea!! AB and MP's numbers are in the list on the portal, make a call for crying out loud and ask them your questions. Thats of course if you really want an answer.

[TangoUniform]

You're wrong, SM. With over "500" members, there needs to be some official email/documentation, anything. My concern is, if this is how they are running the biz with all of the questions, how will they handle any claims. EPC has dropped them like a bad habit-you would think there would be at least something at least saying "standby". The silence is deafening. Of course, maybe all 499 other members are calling, like you suggested and they don't have time respond like a business should.

[Flying Spag Monster]

TU I don't believe I am wrong, call the source if you are a LIPS member and want an answer. However I never said there was an adequate information flow, on that I agree with you.

[cyclops camel]

I am AB, the LIPS Administrator.
I have been on leave in Oz with no internet on my farm and apologise for the delay in my response.
As you are no doubt aware there has recently been a change of heart within the EPC committee over their involvement with the salary deduction for LIPS. Their concerns are that by collecting money for LIPS the EPC is exposed in the event of possible legal action by a LIPS member. LIPS is also outside their scope as a social club and therefore not in their mandate from EK. This is particularly disappointing as the whole premise of LIPS was set up to use the EPC salary deduction as a simple method to pay LIPS premiums with minimal effort for the members. It would have been more appropriate for the committee to raise their objections last year while LIPS was being created.
As to any concerns over the legality of LIPS, let me assure you that the scheme was created in such a manner as to not only make it legal under all countries laws but also to protect the funds against fraud or misuse from either the scheme administrators, directors or trustees. The premiums are held offshore in a trust account managed and audited by Carey Pension and Benefits Ltd in Guernsey.
The status of LIPS as of 30th August is as follows :
Funds held in trust : Dh 1.2 million
Members current : 502
Anticipated balance after next 12 months : nearly Dh 3 million.
Expenses per month per member : Dh 30.
Claims to date : nil.
This effectively means that LIPS can support 4 times the industry statistical average loss of licence claims. A new, albeit less convenient, method of payment is being relayed to members.
I agree that more open communication with members is required and have begun to set up a website so they can see the status of the group fund on a monthly basis.
Finally may I personally thank the members for their continued support throughout the last year and particularly over this latest inconvenience. I am on leave in Australia until the 25th but may be contacted by email until then or afterwards by phone.
Kind regards,
AB
LIPS Administrator.

[GMDS]

:ok:AB, and thanks

[TangoUniform]

As a start, that's all that was needed. Thanks...

[critical winge]

Welldone A. I fully suppport the scheme, think it's a great idea as is a website to calm all the sceptics. A fund invested by those who will purely benefit from it, with sound financial cashflow both now and in the future. Perhaps you could set up a paypal scheme or similar, but then how do you regulate the payments? Maybe a yearly payment or bi-annually by cheque. I think it is a shame that EPC (OUR CLUB) won't allow you just to use them as a financial collection agency for those in the scheme and the scheme members accept by signature that that's all the involvement they have. Anyway, continue the good work and I hope more join soon so see the real benefit this membership brings.:ok:

CW (not a AUS mate)

[ZQN]

AB your silence was becoming a problem. If you are taking 180,000 dhs a year from the scheme as 'administration fees' you need to be more transparent and professional in how you run your 'business'. I was a fan of LIPS but I'm starting to have a re-think.

I don't doubt that the scheme is legal. I think the issue is with your legality and I believe the EPC's lawyer was of the same opinion. Don't have a go at the EPC because without them, you wouldn't have been able to start LIPS. You know that!

And if you think of suggesting that we pay into your personal bank account, you can think again.

[ShockWave]

AB... you lucky b_stard.. summer leave!!
I think it is good that the LIPS scheme is being forced away from the EPC, it should be independent, and transparent to all members and potentials.
If the intention was to create a scheme to the benefit of all EK pilots then it should never have been associated with the EPC because not all EK pilots are members of the EPC and as a result have so far been excluded from the scheme.

[dunerider]

I imagine it had to be associated with the EPC because of the use of salary deduction.Ask a380megacamel he usually has all the answers.His silence is deafening.

[insurance_pedant]

AB, you comment that the scheme was set up to comply with all the respective country's laws. The one concern that I have had is how it stands here locally. LIPS is an entity trading in the UAE and therefore needs to be licensed as such.

1. Is there a local company set up?

2. You are either selling an insurance product or an investment product therefore is the local company registered and licensed by either MoE with an insurance broking license or with the Central Bank?

Thanks,

I_P

[a380megacamel]

I have been on leave in the US with no Internet on my ranch and apologize for the delay in my response. I’ve been finalizing a new exclusive investment scheme for Emirates Pilot’s who are also members of the EPC. The plan is to purchase some land south of Lagos, Nigeria and turn it into an industrial park. The portfolio will be known as Emirates Pilots Club Lagos Industrial Park south or EPC LIPs for short. (Please note the lower case ‘s’ to differentiate this investment from any current running scheme). The land will be purchased through a legally registered company called EPCL (Monrovia) Limited and will be fully compliant will all international laws and those of Monrovia. The directors of the company will be myself, Mrs Megacamel and her nail technician. We are seeking 502 like-minded investors who are willing to pay 300dhs a month into a specially created bank account in the name of Mr and Mrs Megacamel. We envisage that the administration fees will be in the region of 180,000dhs. 165,000dhs will go towards the mortgage on my villa (which we will use as the office), 500dhs towards “Certificates of Investment”, 1000dhs website and the balance for directors entertainment. Please note that I am not acting as a Real Estate agent, but only wish to facilitate this incredible investment. Members will be welcome to visit the Industrial Park at any time.

[dunerider]

Although Camel you make out that you are very smart,unfortunately the only smart thing about you is that you are a smart a..e.

[ShockWave]

megacamel, I think you should offer an incentive for the first 50 members of an immediate cash back payment. Get those members to supply you with all their account details so you can pay it directly into their accounts. I believe that is quite common for Nigerian operations.:ok:
Oh! I think you will need their pin numbers as well due to the difficulties in transferring money internationally from Lagos!

[6853]

Thanks AB for the explanation. Those of us who are members are grateful for the effort you have put in so far, however we did a rough estimate of what we thought the fund should be worth and came to a lot more than the 1.2 million you have mentioned. We estimated that with a conservative average membership of 300 pilots over the last 3 years (think thats about how long its been going if not longer?) that there should be an amount of around 3.4 odd million or are we way out?
Thanks

[Flying Spag Monster]

Mega Dude that was funny, but I have sent your mates in Lagos my email address and bank details for another great plan they came up with. sorry but they got in first.

I have another story (I like stories...) After I left school 4 of my mates made a pact, they would each put $10 a month into a bank account and keep contributing until there was only one single guy left out of the original 4. The last single man standing would get the money....It was a typical dumb teenage guy thing to do, motivated by drink as you would guess. Anyway, this went on for several years until there was only one single guy left and the pot was worth close to $6,000! The last single guy, who we all suspected of being gay (not that there's anything wrong with that), decided to share the money with the other 3 by having a big night out. Now does that sound like insurance or an investment plan, or just a bunch of guys pooling funds with a plan on how to share it? Don't believe they had to register a business to do it either.

[gj18457]

What is the difference between the current administration and the previous one? Both AB and MP are the board of EP LIPS,and always have been. I think the communication has always been terrible. EK Lawyer you should have read the rules and regulations of the fund before signing up.The fund was never sold as you state.

[a380megacamel]

dunerider, I know that I'm not very smart - I'm only an airline pilot. The smart pilots amongst us have made fortunes on the property market in Dubai or set up their own (legal) businesses. While I may not be that smart - at least I'm not dumb.

[donpizmeov]

6853,

The problem with your calc is the time period. LIPS has been running for a little over a year only.

This scheme is very similar to the one run by AFAP at home. That seems to work ok.

Don

[Flying Spag Monster]

EKLawyer I can agree that LIPS is at a critical size that warrants some more transparancy and communication. And to be fair, AB has suggested this is on the way, not any different to a growing private company in that respect. But your gripe, and that of others is:

Failure to register a commercial enterprise in the UAE
Failure to obtain a trade licence
Failure to register directors with the trade department.
Failure to Keep audited Accounts in compliance with UAE law
Operating a business from a residential premises without a licence

I am suggesting that these may not be relevent to the scheme that is called LIPS. But hey, what do I know ..I'm not a lawyer....

I am still astounded at the attempts by non-LIPS members to discredit this scheme. To what end??? I know, as do other members, of the status and structure of the scheme, how there is a certain amount of trust making it all work. I'm comfortable with that. I do expect LIPS to mature as a scheme as it grows and at the moment that would appear to be the case. I just ask that those who are motivated by self interest, be it commercial or bravado, to choose another topic and stop crapping in 502 pilots' nests.

[airbus757]

Lips on the surface appears to be a good idea. But in the end you are trusting a bunch of amatures to protect your family if god forbid something happens to you. Get off your wallets and go out and find a proper outfit to insure your family. Remember folks...as with all things in life, you get what you pay for.

7

[bondslipper]

Guys, clearly there is a lot of concern.

I know AB set this fund up, and fair play to him. I believe he was disapointed with the AIG TopCover product and felt he could do better.
It seems to me that he is now realising the enormous complexities of running such a scheme, and that is before there are any any claims to deal with.
There are onerous legal responsiilities involved when taking funds from 'investors/members in return for a promise of future financial return, and many LIPS members are legitimately asking questions. EPC's lawyers have clearly spotted the jeopardy.

I am insured by TopCover and currently long term sick following an accident, and may not return to flying. My union insured me. I am covered for 75% of my salary and $500k PA cover. I know it will be paid if I don't recover. I am getting full medical opinion support from AIG, and the one concern I do not have is my financial future.



However, they KEY question you should ask about LIPS is:

In the event of me needng to claim, who will:
decide whether my claim is eligible?
monitor my claim for the future years?
assist me wth medical rehabilitation
communicate with me when I leave EK and return to my home country?


And,
what if I don't get paid, or LIPS decides that my condition doesn't merit payment, or 10 yrs from now there is no money in the fund when I claim??

30% of all general insurance claims are fraudulent. As member, how will you feel if Capt Bloggs clams because he was injured when driving drunk? Or Capt Smith claims and says he feels dizzy when he ses his roster? What is Smith or Bloggs were a manager of LIPS, or a relative, or a mate? Will you still want to contribute?


The real issue to consider is the transparency and management of such a complex, international scheme. You need clear guideline, claims investigation procedures, long term medical management, and absolute financial guarantees / security.


LIPS will need to spend a lot MORE of its money on setting up these structures, or trouble will arise.

Or, we all start to realise that AIG ( with AUD $1 trillion + in assets and truly global reach) had a point with TopCover.

At the end of the day, there is a risk/reward curve here. TopCover is cast iron and offers you 5 years of 75% of your salary, $500,000 of Personal Accient cover.

LIPS might work in the long term.

I hope you don't have to rely on hope when you are lying in a hospital bed.

Its a free world. Make a good choice. Discuss it with your wife !!!

[blueside^]

EPC took over 3 years to start. It went from a sum total of 3 members and now has most of the EK pilot workforce as members. EPC had problems in the early days and fortunately through a lot of hard work of volunteers, EPC matured into what it is now. Only the typical slagging pilot would have considered giving EPC the flick in its infancy.

LIPS is no different. It started as a dream of AB’s and sure it has some maturing to do, but without your support it will die. For goodness sake, just have some confidence and positive contributions to make, as it is for our own good.

If in doubt how LIPS will turn out in years to come, speak with the early members of the AFAP Mutual Benefit Fund and compare where it is financially today.

And do me a favour; if you are not a member of LIPS when you contribute to this PPRuNe thread, at least have the balls to say so when you reply.

[ShockWave]

What a load of ****e.. blueside.
If you want to share facts then go ahead and do so, but if you want people(ie fellow work mates) to take you seriously stick to those facts.
It was an arrogant f_ck within the EPC with an attitude not unlike yours that convinced me to resign.
No slagging involved buddy! just very poor management.
All potential members and current members have every right to discuss their concerns about lips and just what difference it makes if they are members or not is beyond me.
Or is it a requirement to pay your money up front before any questions will be answered? Sounds like you've been in Dubai too long.
If you have a vested interest or something to hide please demonstrate that you have the balls to admit it to all of us.

[Not from here]

Shockwave
I was at that time privy to your particular situation.
The EPC has never or ever will sell your e-mail address to anyone.
The facts which seem to have slipped your mind
You where, sent an e-mail from the EPC which had attached letter from a sponsor introducing their services, this was one of 4 or 5 e-mails you’re received from the EPC that year.
You took great acceptation to this and sent an e-mail to that effect to the EPC, who advised you that if you had problem with this, we could delete your name from the e-mail list. You then wrote back telling us that you didn’t see why you should be penalized, and have your name deleted.
We earn a lot of money through a small group of sponsors, we did not believe that a few e-mails a year was a great burden, we have always been willing for those that have a problem with this, to delete their name from the list.
You also said in your e-mail that if this was to continue you would resign, which you did.

Those are the facts,

Sorry if it’s off subject

NB:I am a member of the EPC

[Not from here]

SW
It would seem you have changed your post re selling of the contact numbers.

[blueside^]

Shockwave you did get one thing factual and that is you are an arse and as a result I am not going to get into a slinging match with you after this post as you will be persona non grata.

From the sound of your post and the following, you had a personal issue with someone in the EPC organisation. Maybe you have a lot of personal conflicts, as your reply was very aggressive. I merely said that EPC was a good idea and it was great that the guys did it voluntarily so we can enjoy the benefits. I also said that LIPS is a good idea. Maybe you should stick to the point and not bring your personal vendettas into a professional arena.

For the record:

I don’t have a vested interest in EPC or LIPS, other than being a positive person who wants to enjoy the benefits of both organisations.
Read my post again, as I stated to make a declaration if you were not a LIPS member.
Let your colleagues be the judge of your post.

[insurance_pedant]

I've just received notice that all LIPS payments are to be made into AB's private bank account which I suppose does finally answer the one question I had and that is that there is no locally company set up and therefore LIPS is actually trading illegally in the UAE.

LIPS is being sold by a resident of the UAE to other residents of the UAE, with payments being made in the UAE in UAE Dirhams. It would take an extraordinary leap of imagination to suggest that it is not a UAE based business.

And as for paying into AB's personal bank account.....what is he thinking?!?!

[ekpilot]

I AM NOT A MEMBER OF LIPS

I did not join LIPS due to the many of the observations mentioned before. But before you all join in and demand to see his UAE registered company status, how many of you have been paying into EPC's local bank account, with your locally earned Dhs and not questioned the legal status of OUR CLUB?

I think clarity in all of these business enterprises needs to be addressed and the management of them handed over to responsible outside agents.

[TangoUniform]

I am a member of LIPS, and am rethinking. To put funds into someone's personal account is very very risky. So what happens if for some unknown reason AB cannot access his account? Does he get interest on the amount of 500x320dhs each month? What if AB decides to leave EK, where are the funds? I khave no beef with AB and have zero reason not to trust him, I think he has done the pilots a tremedous favour in setting this up. However, IMHO, it just needs to be set up with some ordinary safeguards, run by a committee of peers and quarterly audits. Maybe we are in a transisition stage and within a month or two, all will be satisfied. But the email I got says to leave 12 checks in his box. Or one big check. Don't think so........

Where do I get TopCover info and what's the reviews on that? Would rather stay with a scheme run by our peers.

[EGGW]

If you were a member, then you would have received an e-mail detailing the legal status of LIPS.
For sure the payments into AB's bank account are not the best, but as the EPC pulled the plug, its a temporary measure i hope.

EGGW

[ShockWave]

Sorry to side track the thread again, but it is kind of relevant when you deal with unprofessional organizations or early start up organizations who have yet to sort out all their difficulties.

Not from here:
I changed my post a few minutes after writing it because it was not what this thread was supposed to be about, so if you received the original, sorry about that!

However, I do find it unsettling that a member, or past member of the EPC committee believes that it is acceptable to air private dealings with their members in a public forum. It is indicative of the poor management that I have already talked about. Also FACTS are only ever known by those directly involved and even then they are also miss represented, bent, embellished or just plain changed to suit what ever agenda some one may have.
I would advise you to remove any information you may have posted about some ones direct dealings with the EPC that you may have been involved with while in an official capacity. := Very poor show, inappropriate, incorrect, and not unexpected. Legal expenses for the EPC is not something that should have to be paid for from members contributions because of the stupidity of one of its officials.


blueside:
I am not normally an angry b_stard but your post deserved an angry reply and it obviously wound me up which I regret letting happen. Your second post only displays again the intolerance of your first, persona non grata! grow up!

[bondslipper]

Hi - you mentioned TopCover and how to find out information? Well that is easy - just look.

You also said you'd like to support something run by your peers.

The IPEP scheme is a group of your peers trying to run an affinity group to access properly regulated and secure insurance for pilots.

The AIG TopCover policy was originally designed by and for your peers - the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association ( Cathay's union) and was initially insured by Lloyds in London. It moved to AIG when it became bigger and more successful.

So: TopCover is designed and initiated by pilots, has proved to be such a success it is now backed by the world's largest insurer, and is made available in Emirates via IPEP ( Income Protection for Emirates Pilots) which is a voluntary 'club' that was formed by volunteers specifically for the benefit of EK pilots ( and pre-dates EPC I think).

I am not sure what else you could hope for really??

TopCover has been available for EK pilots for 6 years, and it has not been pushed as hard as LIPS. It is and was always meant to be voluntary and offer pilots access and choice to a world class secure product. It is up to pilots to make a good decision.

We make vital decisions every day. Why take unecessary risks?

[Flying Spag Monster]

Shock wave you have made this thread fun, so thanks for that. I might point out that no one probably knew who you were until you went ballistic at "not from here". And was that a threat of legal action I saw buried in you last post? Poetry..please more.

Bondy, Top Cover is at least as good a policy as other mainstream policies. But by what measure do you access it as being "...more successful" and successful for whom...AIG..???

[dooner]

Ok let's have an answer to the last question asked, as many other have been answered:

Does the EPC, who takes our UAE money have a trade license to operate here in the UAE? Is it even applicable?

If yes then fine if not, then why not? perhaps a question or two to the relevant authorities might actually clear up the whole mess one way or the other.

To answer the question I have both TOPCOVER and LIPS, why, who cares, I don't give a flying f@ck one way or the other, I just do, if LIPS is illegal and it is determined the EPC is as well, then we have a can of worms on our hands don't we :uhoh:

Dooner:mad:

[ZQN]

dooner
I believe that the EPC and FACE are both Emirates approved staff social clubs and they were formed and exist with the support of the company. The company facilitated the opening of Bank accounts and allowed the salary deductions to enable both clubs to operate.

One major difference between the two, is that IFS control and manages the day to day running of FACE while the EPC has to date been left alone to manage their own affairs. Neither have Dubai trade licences and as long as they don't engage in blatent commercial activities, they will be left alone.

I wouldn't be surprised if the company is closely following the LIPS fiasco on this site.

[dunerider]

It is strange you say Topcover is not pushed as hard as LIPS.I can recall many occasions recieving brochures in my box and even emails to my work address from NF pushing the product.Not sure if the EPC is legal though.Maybe they will shut it down as well.However I dont think recruitment will like that though.

[emratty]

For gods sake guys the EPC is a club which we pay 50 DHS a month each for the privilage. For this you get benefits worth thousands and thousands of Dirhams:D and is run by a bunch of guys who get very little thanks for their efforts.
Don't compare LIPS to EPC they are at opposite ends of the spectrum EPC is approved by Emirates as it is a CLUB and thats why they allow salary deductions.
If LIPS was approved by Emirates they would allow salary deductions however as things stand at the moment that is not going to happen.

[TangoUniform]

It's been awfully quiet. Still waiting for something a bit more "official" than the current pay scheme to an individual's checking account. What concerns me with this type of arrangement (maybe it was always thus), who has access to this account (only AB?), what would happen if for some unforeseen circumstance prevented AB from accessing his account? At the least it would seem that a separate account could be set up with a "board of directors" that would have oversight and access to the account.

This has nothing to do with trust, but rather oversight and access. Anybody heard anything other than the email sent a few months ago?

[a380megacamel]

Last seen sailing around the Caribbean on his yacht 'Sweet Lips'............

[gj18457]

I think I saw AB from a distance yesterday.I should have asked him how many cheques have arrived in his box.I for one am no longer going to continue
with the LIPS scheme.The big question will be will I get any part of my contributions back.Maybe the deal will be that we each get a day out on "sweet lips" as payment.

[dooner]

well the one thing is for certain after reading through these posts I think NF and A380megacamel will be at the bar giving each other a good pat on the back for a "job well done" with their contribution to the end of LIPS (if that comes to pass) and I have absolutely no doubt the 2 of them will be there again to tear down anything else that may come along in the future, NF I can understand because of his personal committment to Topcover, fair enough, as for the megamoron....

I just find it sad that we always try to tear down anything that guys have worked hard to put together for the benefit of their colleagues. I don't see anyone offering any suggestions as to how to move forward......

Lets face it unless your medical condition is "cut and dry" then you will have to fight like hell and as has been mentioned on other forum threads, you may have to threaten with legal action, whether it is Topcover or LIPS, to see any benefits and yes there are plenty of examples around the industry to show this.

So either put up a solution or shut your friggin hole:mad:, I have forwaded a option to Andy for an Investment firm here in Dubai, with which many of the EK pilot group already deal with, it may work, it may not but at least there are options being tried before it is sh@t-canned altogether.

Dooner:mad:

[TangoUniform]

Easy Dooner,
I'm on your side. I think the majority of guys are taking a wait and see attitude. I agree with your assesment that LIPS could and should be, IMHO, the preferred scheme. Perhaps this bump in the road is just what is needed to get the proper checks and balances for a plan that probably will continue to grow and to make it more transparent. Any plan should be able weather some hard scrutiny by its members. And I am sure AB would welcome it. It would only benefit the plan. Trust but verify........

Around 25% of the pilots here are members of LIPS. I believe this is a great scheme and we should continue to support it. What is desired is more communication at this juncture. I guess we all thought there was some oversight by the EPC committee, at least I did. This is just getting too big for one individual to take it upon himself. Get a web site, get a committee, get an accounting firm. That should make everyone feel much better. The money is there to accomplish this. And then....:D

[dunerider]

Which investment firm would that be dooner?

[a380megacamel]

dooner et al,

My motivation from the beginning has been to highlight a poorly managed scheme that potentially exposed the EPC membership and committee to financial liability. As an EPC member I didn't feel that this was right and I believe my concern (and others) was confirmed in a letter from a lawyer the EPC committee had consulted. Perhaps the EPC should post the letter on the EPC website to clear up any doubt.

I'm glad there has been a discussion and I hope that this has been a catalyst for AB to get his affairs in order. I don't wish to see over a quarter of the EK pilots lose money in a failed scheme while presumably AB would continue to receive directors and admin fees until all the remaining funds dried up.

Disclosure - I have Top Cover (for now), I have no affiliation with NF, I'm an EPC member.

[Jumeirah James]

I see MP has resigned as Chairman of EPC. Is this coincidence, peer pressure or just conflict of interest?

[donpizmeov]

Well since MP is the fella that conceived, negotiated and started EPC, I guess we should all be saying thanks for all your hard work on our behalf.
Good work MP and thanks mate.

Don

[dessertdude]

Yep, hands up for MP:D Thanks man:ok:
Lets keep EPC out of this discussion please.

[critical winge]

New Email in portal boxes trying to pull poeple across to the dark side. Hey just trying to see what its all about and send name and contact etc to them and the "oh so superior professional service server crashes"!

Server Error in '/colemontdxb/TopCover' Application

[gj18457]

Has anyone heard what is happeing with LIP's

[ZQN]

No. :(

AB still need to sort out this. He promised that he would sort out an acceptable payment option but is only accepting cheques in his personal name. This is not acceptable.

Where's the promised audit?

Where's the promised improvement in communication?

Where's the promised website?

Where's our money?

[helen-damnation]

Still got mine, he's not getting cheques in his personal account.:=

The longer this goes on, the more it smells. Which is not to say it is wrong, just that it needs to be sorted out soon. Like yesterday!

[dunerider]

I hate to say this, however, we may have kissed our contributions goodbye.

[BigGeordie]

Guys, it was an insurance scheme, not a savings scheme. You would only ever get anything back from your contributions if you made a claim during the time you were paying contributions. When your car insurance runs out at the end of the year you don't get anything back if you haven't claimed.

I did contribute to LIPS and (I hope) I was covered while I was doing so. Now that I'm no longer contributing (Checks into a personal bank account? Don't think so!:=) I'm not covered. End of story.

[MR8]

Big Geordie, I agree with you, but at least when it comes to your car insurance, you know on beforehand when it is going to expire, so you can renew it or look for an alternative, worst case, stop driving your car...

Here, we aren't covered anymore because of non-payment, but we are still at the risk of losing a licence. Also, the change in payment came so unexpected that probably noone investigated a proper alternative.

Poor show...

MR8

[gj18457]

In actual fact I believe part of the plan of LIP's was that after a minimum amount of time as a member you can get a percentage of your contributions
back if you leave the scheme.I think it is about time AB lets us all know what the hell is happening.

[theidler]

LIPS is going to die unless AB does some quick damage limitation.

It is an unreasonable request to ask people to pay a years premium into a personal account. Not through reasons of trust but because unexpected circumstances could prevent AB from accessing the funds.

Had a request been made for say 1-2 months premium paid into his account as a stop gap pending alternative and acceptable arrangements being introduced then I would have stumped up the cash.

Because I doubt that most people will pay a years premium into a personal account I will not make that payment either, because under those circumstances I expect LIPS to fail, therefore I would lose my money and not be insured anyway.

I want LIPS to be a success but action is needed now.

[ernestkgann]

LIPS will probably die because people are, rightly, unwilling to send funds through the administrator's personal bank account. Even though the individual loss of a year or so of fees is not great, I don't think it's correct that the administrators be allowed to collect the entirety of the fund if it breaks down.
I would personally much rather see those funds reallocated to a group cause of some sort.

[6853]

Talk now of the fund being handed over to a local investment company which I don't think will give anyone much confidence either.

Simple solution for AB the way I see it.

Total contributions and any interest accrued - X months management fees = Funds to be returned or donated to a good cause.

or is not that simple?

[kingoftheslipstream]

This LIPS affair is a classic example of why 'an how pilots make such lousy business people...
... and why we're our own worst enemies as a group, because we are so naive and trusting and fundamentally stupid. I have not made another payment, nor will I do so. What a bull**** artist this guy is. Fool me once, shame on you - fool me twice shame on me... Well AB, I didn't just fall off the turnip truck...
Some guy, takes an idea... throws minimum business acumen behind it, but enjoys modest success... we the poor suckers, are payin' into the 'trust fund' in blind faith and now there ain't a word from the dude behind it all.
This is a disgrace.
Now that I think of it, if this pilot insurance stuff was such a good idea, you'd bet your sweet ass there'd be some big legitimate company out there runnin' it properly - and there ain't. That tells me it ain't viable as a legitimate business.
How much more evidence do we need? I'm outta this!
Furthermore folks, I reckon this is a bigger slight to our collective integrity than all that Capt America bull**** from a coupla years ago. I reckon there oughtta be some consequences for this dude AB. I reckon we should avoid this guy like the plague - bid to avoid, call in sick, whatever it takes. There needs to be some relevant and meaningful consequences from this swindle. It only cost me a little more 'n a years worth a premiums but that is still my hard earned money an' it don't belong in his pocket, that's for damned sure.
k-o-t-s

[ZQN]

Finally a reply from AB on the company email. Only 200 out of 500 have paid into his personal bank account. What does that tell you?

Can we please have our money back please!

[atiuta]

Pathetic responses.

Supposedly professional people yet again trying to pass the blame for their own decisions onto someone else. No one was forced to join LIPS in the first place and from the slagging I have read here, you would think the individuals were on compulsory membership.

I'm real glad we don't have any degree of pilots association in EK because there is a complete lack of resolve to support it.

AB had the balls to setup LIPS and continues to work towards a satisfactory solution. The current situation is NOT an acceptable process and AB acknowledges that fact. It is precisely why he is working towards a solution.

AB - you have my support and I'm looking forward to an improved process.

[clevlandHD]

Problem is AB did not come with a proper response to the crisis. I will rejoin the schem when there is an acceptable (liable) way of paying my dues. If AB had made it clear that he would only take ONE payment and fix the problem before the next monthly payment, maybe people would have given him a cheque. 300 guys cannot be that wrong...

And he should have involved a few more peolpe than just himself...

[ZQN]

Does anyone have any updates? How many are still paying into Lips? How much money is in the fund? Are AB and MP still taking their directors fees? What is stopping them from paying themselves until all the funds dry up? Am I the only one that feels cheated?

[cyclops camel]

ZQN,
LIPS has been restructured utilising the services of a licenced fund manager in Dubai. They will take over all admin, collection of premiums and investment of the fund - reducing costs and increasing yield. Two new committee members have volunteered their time to assist in overseeing the fund. Both very senior and well respected management pilots.
Meanwhile about 300 members current and still no claims.
Feel free to ring me anytime to discuss. The official launch of the new LIPS will be in Jan.
Merry Xmas,
AB.

[Dune]

cyclops camel:

This is very good news for those of us who were uncomfortable with the current structure and had pulled out of the program. :ok:

Suggest an email on the crew portal from you outlining the new structure would be highly beneficial not only for those currently in the system but also for those who were members and pulled out and those who never were members that might now be interested.

Cheers

[jack schidt]

I say that the spare funds need to be put into EPC and so swallowed up and be done with! (LIPS)

[EGGW]

Jack, go take a hike pal or similar.

EGGW

[dunerider]

Dear Andy

Surely you can find a better medium to communicate to the members of LIPS
than through PPRUNE? Why do you not at least have the professionalism to
send us a personal email or a letter in our boxes at work? I thought back in August you were going to have a web page up and running as well. As far as directors fees are concerned up until this point I don't see how any have been warranted. I am hoping to see a vast improvement in both the communication and accountability of this scheme, and to be presented with a written contract or proper documentation, like other reputable insurance companies provide. The sarcastic tone of your post is unwarranted.

[cyclops camel]

Dunerider,
Details are still being finalised and an email will be sent to you very soon when all is in place.
I just wanted to stop the speculation before it got out of hand again in this forum.
AB.

[dunerider]

Fair enough.Thanks

[TangoUniform]

In a previous "life" there were two options for a LIPS, one with an insurance company the union recommended and/or a local scheme run by pilots. Let's just say the union/insurance policy was terrible. They made individuals jump through incredible hoops only to be very "stingy" with payouts. The local scheme, was fantastic in all respects. So what am I saying? I will stick with the local scheme run by peers with local control. This transition I think has been good for our local scheme. Keep up the good work Andy....we want it to work.

[insurance_pedant]

AB thanks for the update. I'm looking forward to receiving further details but in the meantime can you confirm that the licensed fund manager you are using has the relevant trade licenses to carry out insurance transactions?

I have been told that the MoE has set up an insurance association to review and monitor the insurance market and the new LIPS scheme will need to ensure that it complies with all local regulations to avoid being shut down, fined or worse.

This has always been one of my concerns with the LIPS scheme and I have never received an answer to it.

Thanks,

I_P

[GMDS]

Why don't you just give it a break and let him sort out the things. Instead you stirr up already slightly troubled water and lead the bloodhounds right to the prey!:ugh:
I appreciate AB's work and believe it's on the right track and will be fine AND legal. In the mean time I PAY into the scheme, even if there remains a tiny little risk.:ok:
Once everything is sorted out, I am sure all the moaners will jump on the bandwagon, having saved one or two years of contributions, and will be the loudest to demand and claim .........:mad:

Merry Christmas

GMDS

[insurance_pedant]

GMDS, I am sorry that you seem to have taken exception to my post, I don't know where the line gets drawn between stirring things up and asking a perfectly legitimate and BTW a very important and valid question. In fact the same question I have asked a number of times before and STILL have no answer to.

I have absolutely no intention of leading bloodhounds anywhere, I just would like to know if the new scheme will be properly licensed in accordance with the UAE Law. The 'old' scheme was not and if the new scheme isn't I want absolutely no part of it because sooner or later things will go pear-shaped.

If it is licensed correctly I will be very interested in looking at the scheme and taking it on its merits.

How hard can it be?

I_P

[Flying Spag Monster]

I-P it is a perfectly valid question...after the new details are announced. Either way, I am sure that what ever AB arranges will never satisfy your due diligence and we will hear yet more from you then. So can we wait?

How hard can it be?

FSM

[GMDS]

I_P
And just how intelligent and productive is to do such enquiries on a open and public forum??
You know AB's mail , so do it there. This is for rumours and whinging etc..
Serious stuff that affects us as professionals should be done in a professional way.

[emratty]

Err why is AB posting on this forum then?

[Dune]

ZQN,
LIPS has been restructured utilising the services of a licenced fund manager in Dubai. They will take over all admin, collection of premiums and investment of the fund - reducing costs and increasing yield. Two new committee members have volunteered their time to assist in overseeing the fund. Both very senior and well respected management pilots.
Meanwhile about 300 members current and still no claims.
Feel free to ring me anytime to discuss. The official launch of the new LIPS will be in Jan.
Merry Xmas,
AB.

Any updates on LIPS? Has the restructuring been completed?

[ZQN]

And is AB still taking directors fees....