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SaddamsLoveChild
24th May 2007, 12:44
Could someone shed any light on the rumoured forthcoming reduction in Flying rations from 1 Jul. It appears that as part of the cost savings to the public purse in line with the changes to entitlement for food and accommodation, that aircrew rations will not continue to be demanded to the same levels and individuals will be responsible for provisioning themselves. The aircrew rations normally reclaimed against all monthly Fg stats will only be able to be reclaimed against night hours. Fg rations (box meals) will only be issued for periods where crews are to be flying for 1-4 hrs that take place over a meal time. Pot noodles and pies will not be available, only high energy rations like chocolates and biscuits etc

I am told that crews who are airborne for longer periods (2 Gp/Trails etc) will continue to be catered for in the normal way and have asked for a copy of the new regs but none have been forthcoming, any one got any thoughts? It will also include SAR and Q crews although the funding will be limited to plated meals from messes as opposed to self catering.

Green Flash
24th May 2007, 13:03
That should make up the minds of any waverers at ISK, Lyn etc!:}
Sorry. Hiding

MightyHunter AGE
24th May 2007, 13:11
In every other Air Force in the world people have to provide food for themselves, I am surprised it has taken this long to see cut backs in this perk.
Guys guarding the gate for 12 hours and guys that work on the aircraft for a full 12 hour shift recieve nothing in the way of rations so why should you get free food provided.
Sure provide bottled water due to being in a forced air environment but a chicken tikka, rice, crisps, mars bar, apple and donuts is rather extracting the urine is it not? and dont even get me started on aircrew recieving rations for a sortie flown in the SIM!!
I can however see the point of rationing the trails etc
This is not a flaming post but merely an observation of something I personally have thought should have been sorted a long time ago.

midsomerjambo
24th May 2007, 13:28
I dunno, we used to get duty supper on nights which, if you lived out, was free and if you lived in you didn't pay any extra. If living out, we also got free breakfast, lunch and dinner when on exercise or station augmentation force duty. Does that not happen anymore?

MSJ

circle kay
24th May 2007, 13:43
The NLS tea bar will go into economic meltdown :)

Len Ganley
24th May 2007, 13:47
Midsomerjambo

Unfortunately not. If you live out you get nothing when on Guard Commander, etc.

MightyHunter AGE

I appreciate yours is not a flaming post but, on a small point, I have never seen the lineys complain when taking excess rations off a jet. Especially OOA. :E

Your point about sims is well made though. Never could quite see the need for that.



Will these proposed changes apply on ops/ dets etc????

Release-Authorised
24th May 2007, 13:59
Unlike shift work and gate guarding - its just a bit difficult to pop down the NAAFI to grab a butty while you are at 30K ft on a 10 hour sortie!! Therefore aircrew will need feeding! As for only getting food when flying over meal times - these are also difficult to manage what with different time zones and unsocial working hours etc to consider. Sounds like a good few flight safety reports coming up caused by low blood sugar!

Also sounds a cost saving exercise!!

c-bert
24th May 2007, 14:06
I believe it is possible for aircrew to visit the NAAFI prior to take off and...buy...sandwiches.

There you are, I said it. I'll go and punish myself immediately...:rolleyes:

Release-Authorised
24th May 2007, 14:08
So the NAAFI (or SPAR Shop as it is now) will be open at 0400 for an early crew in? Fat Chance. Perhaps shops are always open when the blunt end are pretending to work but.....

dallas
24th May 2007, 14:09
Unlike shift work and gate guarding - its just a bit difficult to pop down the NAAFI to grab a butty while you are at 30K ft on a 10 hour sortie!! Therefore aircrew will need feeding! As for only getting food when flying over meal times - these are also difficult to manage what with different time zones and unsocial working hours etc to consider. Sounds like a good few flight safety reports coming up caused by low blood sugar!
Good point! It would make more sense to introduce mandatory food charges for aircrew for each day they fly, either pro-rata or over half a month of flying equates to living-in food charges.

Flight safety issue = solved. :E

Maple 01
24th May 2007, 14:10
In every other Air Force in the world people have to provide food for themselves, I am surprised it has taken this long to see cut backs in this perk.

I take it you've checked? Or just toeing the party line? Working with the USAF I remember being fed outside normal working hours free and having access to a heavily subsidised mess at other times. Hells bells, cheese paring cheapness like this helps suck the last of the morale out of the people that supposedly matter most (remember 'people are our most important asset?')

Guys guarding the gate for 12 hours and guys that work on the aircraft for a full 12 hour shift receive nothing in the way of rations so why should you get free food provided.

Just because us (ex in my case) ground-ponders are treated like sh*t doesn’t create a precedence or give you cart-blanch - everyone should be looked after, bring back duty suppers and feeding the guards - rememner morale?

MightyHunter, you're not one of THEM are you? Tell me it wasn't your GEMS

Raymond Ginardon
24th May 2007, 14:21
"In every other Air Force in the world people have to provide food for themselves"

Grossly incorrect.

cornish-stormrider
24th May 2007, 14:41
Volunteer requested to turn out the lights........

Truckkie
24th May 2007, 16:18
Must remind myself to cancel ops when I'm on a 16 hr+ day in theatre because I'm not entitled to food when serving my country.

So as well as having to buy all my own kit, pay extra to get decent life insurance, increase savings into an AVC to get a decent death in service and widows pension for my loved ones you want me to pay for my own food when flying????

Having a f**king laugh aren't you??

Hopefully all these people wingeing about aircrew rations have never helped themselves to butty boxes post sorties (that would be theft) and also never complained about being fed and watered on op transits that actually don't attract any scaling.

Next time you're on a long trail or trip to the desert don't forget to pop into the nearest NAAFI and buy your food and drink for the 9 hour flight.

Mind you, shouldn't worry about aircrew flying rations because at the current exit rates there won't be any aircrew left to feed!!

Rant off:*

Sospan
24th May 2007, 16:25
Flying in theatre isn't what this is all about, its local flying that is the issue. So pick up your Teddy's and get used to paying for your lunch like the rest of us !

MightyHunter AGE
24th May 2007, 16:55
Release-Authirise
So the NAAFI (or SPAR Shop as it is now) will be open at 0400 for an early crew in? Fat Chance. Perhaps shops are always open when the blunt end are pretending to work but.....

My my we are all a bit tetchy arent we.
As a member of the winged master race surely you can remember to go to Asda/NAAFI etc or even, god forbid make yourself a packed lunch BEFORE you go on your little jolly round the sky or do you need someone to run after you as per usual.
Of course we blunties are always pretending to work without actually doing anything, the jets just magically fix themselves when the little pixies march in at one minute past midnight.

Mmmm enjoy those donuts while you can.............

Truckie
No-one is going on about OOA or SAR trials so cool your boots. Teddy last seen at 20K Ft with butty box in hand.............

samuraimatt
24th May 2007, 16:57
Those little pixies you mentioned are they the lift pixies from the other thread about lift in turns or whatever, or a completely different group?

MightyHunter AGE
24th May 2007, 17:02
Samuraimatt

I havent seen those pixies you are on about, I am actually meaning the pixies at ISK that have all had enough and have all been re-named 'PVR pixies'.
Apparently you get FREE food off-shore so thats where they are all going.

zedder
24th May 2007, 17:54
"As a member of the winged master race surely you can remember to go to Asda/NAAFI etc or even, god forbid make yourself a packed lunch BEFORE you go on your little jolly round the sky or do you need someone to run after you as per usual."

I'm sure I could remember and manage. However, has anyone got a fridge I can keep the stuff in (to keep it safe to eat while I'm flying) while I sit around on my arse waiting for the jet to be ready for the 1000, no make that 1200, oops forgot some paperwork so let's make that 1500, nope still not ready so how about 1700, take-off!!

Len Ganley
24th May 2007, 18:09
Hopefully all these people wingeing about aircrew rations have never helped themselves to butty boxes post sorties

MightyHunter AGE - I'm sure you would never seek to benefit from a system you despise.

Is it the in-flight catering you object to or the people who recieve it??

XferSymbol
24th May 2007, 18:18
MightyHunterAGE, you do have a chip on your shoulder eh?

Maybe you should stay off PPrune and get some more frames ready to load aircrew rations on.

And if it causes you so much distress and you are upset that someone may be getting something that you are not, stop whining and get yourself down to OASC.

You are giving the hard working lineys a bad name.

There, I feel much better for that. :}

Door Slider
24th May 2007, 19:21
I pay for meals in the mess 7 days a week, since I only receive 3 meals on average a week perhaps the blunties who are at the front of the queue at 12 and 5 o'clock every day should subsidies the meals I’m missing?? If I’m away from base for 10-12 hours at a time why should I pay for the pleasure, let’s be real!!!!!

Big Bear
24th May 2007, 19:45
The way I see it, the most pragmatic solution to this problem would be to stop paying flying pay to aircrew who are not in a flying tour and use the money saved to provide rations for those aircrew who are in a flying tour. :E

Problem solved!:ok:

Grimweasel
24th May 2007, 19:57
Well I have to agree. I have received 'Lumpy Boxes' on too many LL sorties around the UK, even when not missing a meal. I could never see the point in them, they were full of junk and as such I used to bring in my own much healthier food. And before any one quotes Flt safety and all that crap on most of the AT fleet you have a fridge and microwave.

I fail to see why we should continue with this 2 tier RAF of winged and not winged. We are all people at the end of the day with the same basic human needs. Therefore why should all the flyers be blessed with better conditions than the equal human on the ground? The pathetic egotistical argument of 'should have done better at school' or 'can't beat 'em join em' has no place in today’s society and as such would be ridiculed and frowned upon in most company HR departments.

I have often come across winged personnel who do think they are a cut above and special. Granted, not everyone can be tarnished with this brush but there is a distinct level of selfish elitism that presides amongst some aircrew.

See the letters page in the RAF News this week and the cutbacks being enforced on personnel attending courses, where the first 30 days free food has been axed. Now, the average tom with £200 spare a month will have to pay for food when he is away on a compulsory course? What other civi company would send people away and not give them perks / expenses? This proves that your argument if selfish and flawed.

Therefore why should aircrew doing a 2 hr LL sortie from 0900-1100 receive rations just because they are flying??

I'm not bitter and twisted, just trying to get people to appreciate both side of the fence and how some people (inc the personnel that get the planes into the air, techies, drivers, chefs, all part of the team) feel.

It's that bad attitude that may leave the air-force with less people to look after the aircrew in all aspects, than pilots.

Rant over...constructive points only though as levels of maturity need to be maintained!!
:=

BEagle
24th May 2007, 20:06
Aircrew should only eat food which has been properly prepared. FL350 with 4 hours to go is bad enough, but getting the sh*ts at 250 feet in a Herc would be less than amusing. So no, you certainly shouldn't bring your own !

Never did see the point of 1-3 or 3-5 hours rationing myself..... But 5-7 and more, indeed yes.

The stupid S1 box was a load of absolute cack when I stopped flying in 2002. Are they still as bad now?

lifter91
24th May 2007, 20:14
Hi everybody,

it's my first post here as I just stumbled over this forum...

It seems that most air forces have the same problems. In our Air Force, we just had the same cut on the meals, and the way we solved it is, that we still get our flight meals, however, we have to pay half the price we would have to pay in the mess (only half, because in the mess the variety is better).

I think most of us (and most of the ground based guys :) ) are fine with this solution .

Cheers, Lifter91

Maple 01
24th May 2007, 20:15
I fail to see why we should continue with this 2 tier RAF of winged and not winged.

Exactly, but instead of bringing everyone down, why not push to have standards raised? The fact that guards and other non-flyers on extended duties don’t get fed nowadays is being used as an excuse to remove a perk from flyers, but the older amongst us will remember duty suppers, exercise catering and stuffing one’s face during courses, so there was no two tier Air force when it came to food in the past, it’s only because the bean counters were allowed to take away those perks that created a precedence that allows the buggers to try it on again – for pity’s sake, someone tell them to **** off and take their rucksacks with them

Now I'm fifthly civi scum when I go away on a course I get fed for free, why should it be different for servicemen?

Edited to add 'welcome to the chap above, USAF or Luftwaffe?'

lifter91
24th May 2007, 20:21
Hi there,

Luftwaffe.:ok:

Lifter

Maple 01
24th May 2007, 20:37
Give my regards to the General-Steinhoff-Kaserne if you're in town Lifer!

lifter91
24th May 2007, 20:41
will do.
Have to go now. Gotta get up at five. See ya, good night.

Lifter

advocatusDIABOLI
24th May 2007, 20:46
Might be abit off the point, but I always liked the way that butties for FJ fellas were cut into tiny squares. You always get a bread-filling-bread-bread grab first......... which means:.... filling-bread-bread-filling next.

I have personally flicked a piece of cucumber into the HUD of a Tonka, it was still next the Altitude when I landed!

Laugh, I nearly sh..... well, on the bright side, 12 months down the road, Ly Big jets will be able to T/O with 'x' more stuff, with the same crew, and same ODM figures!!! :E ( I wonder why? )

SVK
24th May 2007, 21:23
BEagle, I think you have a genuine point.

In terms of Duty of Care wouldn't all aircrew have to obtain a Food Safety/Hygiene Certificate? Otherwise, how can they provide their own sandwiches prepared to the proper guidelines?:ugh:

There would also have to be adequate facilities to store the sandwiches until flight time and of course they would have to be labelled appropriately.

At least I'll know for certain what's in my butties from now on!

The Swinging Monkey
25th May 2007, 05:27
MightyHunter AGE

I do wonder about you sometimes!
I recall that whenever we landed early (or on time) the first thing the groundcrew did was to literally ransack the galley of anything!!
I've even seen them take stuff that one of the crew had been saving for after landing. You guys took everything!! All the tea, coffee, milk, sugar, tinned food, every last thing. It was like a giant hoover after we landed.
And that was borne out if you ever went into the NLS crew room, where you could get a full, complete meal, courtesy of aircrew rations.

And now there is a rumour about the rations going and you are chuffed to bits!! You make me sick mate. Just pathetic, 'we can't have it, so you shouldn't have it either' do go and find yourself a life AGE. We can all see that you clearly go out of your way to foster good aircrew/groundcrew relations don't you!

Listen to BEagle, it will never happen, and it shouldn't ever happen. Christ man, how many more 'perks' do you want to lose? or are you only interested in those that affect the groundcrew and screw the rest?

TSM

Wrathmonk
25th May 2007, 05:58
Not wanting to detract from a good "them versus us" fight but the way I read the first post is that the only people it will affect are those that fly the shorter sorties, by day and not over the "lunch" period (whatever that is defined as). As rationing is based on authorised time, not actual time (or at least that was my understanding) the poeple who are going to "lose" are those who are authorised for sorties <1-4hrs (using SLCs figures) that land before (say) 1100hrs or take off after (say) 1400hrs. To me this is those in the training world and Fast Jets (and maybe rotary wing) and even them some careful auth sheet work will see the problem affecting even fewer. Can't see this affecting the Kinloss/Brize/Lyneham/Waddington eating teams at all (except perhaps for local trg sorties). And after Gordon Ramseys visit to an F3 sqn the FJ boys have no excuse for not knocking up a fine lunch in 25mins! Mountain out of a mole hill spings to mind IMHO.;)

MightyHunter AGE
25th May 2007, 06:01
You all need to cool your horses down just a little here, anyone would think that they were trying to cut your flying pay or something!!

I am not jumping up and down with joy either way if this 'perk' gets removed or not.

Zedder
However, has anyone got a fridge I can keep the stuff in (to keep it safe to eat while I'm flying) while I sit around on my arse waiting for the jet to be ready for the 1000, no make that 1200, oops forgot some paperwork so let's make that 1500, nope still not ready so how about 1700, take-off!!
Ok lets all rush around and send a jet up without carrying out the correct procedure and paperwork just because your sarnies are going off then eh?

Len Ganley
Hopefully all these people wingeing about aircrew rations have never helped themselves to butty boxes post sorties
MightyHunter AGE - I'm sure you would never seek to benefit from a system you despise.

Is it the in-flight catering you object to or the people who recieve it??
I object to neither, just because i have an opinion on how my taxes are being used that is different from yours I am wrong, last time I looked we lived and a free country where i am free to make my own mind up on things.

XferSynbol
MightyHunterAGE, you do have a chip on your shoulder eh?

Maybe you should stay off PPrune and get some more frames ready to load aircrew rations on.

And if it causes you so much distress and you are upset that someone may be getting something that you are not, stop whining and get yourself down to OASC.

You are giving the hard working lineys a bad name.
Grow up. I have no chip or axe to grind it and as for wanting to be aircrew I have never been interested, engineering has and always will be my thing, dont think that everyone is an aircrew wannabe. (oh and btw i am more than qualified to be one, just because I am groundcrew dont think I am stupid)

TSM
You make me sick mate.
Stop eating so much free food then
Just pathetic, 'we can't have it, so you shouldn't have it either' do go and find yourself a life AGE. We can all see that you clearly go out of your way to foster good aircrew/groundcrew relations don't you!
You dont know me so dont comment on things you know nothing about. I have an excellent working realationship with the aircrew at ISK. Again because my opinion differs from yours on free food I am obviously wrong. Sad..........
I recall that whenever we landed early (or on time) the first thing the groundcrew did was to literally ransack the galley of anything!!
True, what we should do is leave the food on the aircraft to rot so that it stinks for the next crew to enjoy then eh? Part of the flight servicing is to ensure left over rations are removed, yum yum waste not want not then, whats free for one should be free for all.

Oh and just as an afterthought, the reason a lot of linies eat the leftover rations is because they dont have time to go to the mess as they are too busy fixing the jets to keep you flying.

The Swinging Monkey
25th May 2007, 06:33
MightyHunter AGE

You keep going mate, I love to see someone like you digging holes for themselves. I have never read such a load of utter sanctimonious crap in all my life! You shouldn't be in the RAF - you should be a saint, you're so good.

As for the groundcrew taking the food off the jet after we land - hey, I don't have a problem with that at all. I would suggest to you that it is infact theft, but I couldn't care less, and if you think its OK, then that's alright by me, after all, you are 'Super AGE'

Oh, and you 'have an excellent working relationship with the aircrew at ISK' - I'm sure you do, well done. I'll bet you don't tell any of them to their faces some of the comments you say on this forum though, do you?

And you want to comment on how your taxes are spent?? On Aircrew rations? You really do need to get a life. I am all for not wasting my taxes, but on aircrew rations? Are you serious man? Are you for real?

And the 'yum yum waste not want not then, whats free for one should be free for all' Yes, that pretty much sums you up, if I can't have it, why should you?

And your final blast of.........wait for it.............'as an afterthought, the reason a lot of linies eat the leftover rations is because they dont have time to go to the mess as they are too busy fixing the jets to keep you flying' Now that just takes the biscuit. I would suggest that with the flying rate at ISK at the moment, that sort of comment does your cause no good whatsoever. On the contrary, you make things worse with comments of that nature.

So, just to summarise then:

'I don't get it, so the aircrew shouldn't get it'
'I don't want my taxes wasting on aircrew rations'
'We eat the left over rations so they don't go to waste'
'We eat the left over rations 'cos we are too busy to go to the mess'

Right then, I guess that will be all bo11ocks then? Eh?

TSM

MightyHunter AGE
25th May 2007, 06:45
Get over it TSM your days of free food are numbered, dry your eyes.

Yep you got it in one I am Super AGE!

And lastly, you shouldnt be in the RAF, well like most folk who have had enough of a two tier privelaged few ruling the roost, I am soon going off shore so I dont have to deal with sanctimonious, overpaid, pompus, know it all, whinging people like you.

TTFN

The Swinging Monkey
25th May 2007, 06:54
Hey, Super AGE,

Just a word of thanks fro me for showing your true colours! Now, at least, everyone can see that all your previous postings were cr4p! Well done.

Now hurry up and get back to the oily, greasy things and get my aircraft fixed, pronto! i've got a nice Beef Curry to eat before taxi, finished off with a slice of DCS and 6 Mars Bars before TOC. I think I'll settle down for a bit of a kip, before I start on my main course, now what shall I have today?? Choices, choices, lifes just a huge big eatex!
Oh, those poor groundies, so hard-worked and no time to get to the mess, shame. Maybe I'll leave them a nice yoghurt for their tea!

MightyHunter AGE
25th May 2007, 07:06
TSM
read again "so I dont have to deal with sanctimonious, overpaid, pompus, know it all, whinging people like you." You means you not anyone else, oh and BTW it shows how long it is since you flew, DCS, you are well out of touch (thankfully).

Oh and thanks for showing your true feelings on the groundcrew "Oh, those poor groundies, so hard-worked and no time to get to the mess, shame." Shouldnt expect much else really should I, folk like you give the rest of the aircrew a bad name. Hope you feel proud of yourself fostering such great aircrew/groundcrew releationships.......................

The Swinging Monkey
25th May 2007, 07:28
Buuuurrrrrrp, burp, oh sorry Super AGE, just finished off my egg, bacon, burp, sausage, beans, fried bread, burp, mushrooms and black pudding free breakfast burp. All free of course (aircrew you see) Can I bring you back a cold bacon sarny maybe? What about the rest of your boys have they managed to find time to eat yet? You are a sad man AGE!

Now then, have you got my jet sorted yet? right, well come on then chaps, lets get airborne for a couple of hours shall we? We might have to extend just a few minutes mind, to make sure we finish off the last of the food!

Have a good weekend Super AGE, I now really do have to go flying - off for another hop to the sand pit, see you all next week!
TSM

startermotor
25th May 2007, 08:12
"Oh and just as an afterthought, the reason a lot of linies eat the leftover rations is because they dont have time to go to the mess as they are too busy fixing the jets to keep you flying."

Well perhaps they should bring their own packed lunches then.

And as for the name!!! mightyhunter AGE? You are a crew chief not a real AGE, if you were then perhaps you wouldn't be whinging when in the back of Albert for 8 hours with only your packed lunch.

toddbabe
25th May 2007, 08:33
Swinging monkey it is you that is the true sad ****!
I agree wholeheatedly with super age, why should aircrew get FREE food ?
Give me a genuine good reason why.
If you were a none aircrew trade doing a 12 hour shift would you get a free food? NO so why should aircrew get it for doing a six hour CT, even if you factor in the briefing time and the de brief it is still much less than 12 hours, and as for sims well that really is taking the piss on a massive scale.
Your argument I suspect is that you can't nip out for food whilst above the Irish sea at 250 ft, very true but most of the living out guys don't go to the mess or the spar shop when they are on the ground! they bring in a packed lunch, what is so different about aircrew?
It is a shame that perks are being removed but look at it honestly from the outside and it is very hard to justify.
If you are not allowed to get food when doing a 12 hour night shift on guard in the middle of winter then prey do tell why aircrew should get free food (tonnes of it) for a simulator?
And whilst we are at it talk of fostering good relations between air and groundcrews will always be difficult whilst idiots wearing flying suits think that evryone aspires to be aircrew and those that aren't are not clever enough!!:= Get real

serf
25th May 2007, 08:56
No BEagle does not have a genuine point, otherwise no one would be able to eat at home before going on duty!

MightyHunter AGE
25th May 2007, 10:05
Again I quote "Oh, those poor groundies, so hard-worked and no time to get to the mess, shame." If you are so full of contempt for those who ensure you fly safely then why do you keep posting back answers? Damned if you do, damned if you dont...........

Startermotor
I am sorry you feel that way about crew chiefs, remember when you applied to remuster to age there was a box into which you inserted the type of aircraft you wished to ge on, made a small mistake did you then mate??
Dry your eyes I filled the same form in as you except I didnt fancy becoming a pretendy aircrew guy, if thats what real GEing is all about then fill your flying boots then.

c-bert
25th May 2007, 10:10
Does anyone else find it quite funny that one of the most hotly responded-to threads on a military aviation forum is about packed lunches? :ok:

I must say, I am quite disappointed at the contempt that aircrew and ground crew seem to have for each other. Still, one hopes that when push comes to shove we all work together, lunch or no lunch....:)

FCWhippingBoy
25th May 2007, 10:12
Aircrew should only eat food which has been properly prepared. FL350 with 4 hours to go is bad enough, but getting the sh*ts at 250 feet in a Herc would be less than amusing. So no, you certainly shouldn't bring your own !The last time I ate a "properly prepared", minging in-flight ration, it gave me the sh*ts. Where was I? Ohhh only southbound BZZ>MPA with a bit more more than 4hrs to go :(

Winco
25th May 2007, 10:14
toddbabe,

I don't see anywhere on this forum where anyone is even remotely suggesting that 'idiots wearing flying suits think that evryone aspires to be aircrew and those that aren't are not clever enough' perhaps you would be so kind as to point that part out to me?

The reason why aircrew have been rationed, and cointinue to be rationed is a simple one Human Physiology. Now you can believe it or not, but that is the fact why aircrew are given rations whilst on flying duties. I wouldn't argue with you about the simulator, but as far as flying duties are concerned, there is a real need (according to the medics) to be correctly rationed.

Now understandably, you and AGE feel agrieved by this. You feel that you are 'equal' to the aircrew, and if you can't have rations, then why should anyone else? Whilst I understand your gripe, that is NOT a reason for you to argue for the withdrawl of rations. Whenever I took a Crew Chief flying with me and my crew, they were also rationed, and I didn't see any of them refuse the food. Likewise, if we took other groundcrew with us, they were also rationed. So I don't see what your problem is frankly. You would have been quite happy to have been rationed for duty supper I suspect when it was available, or whilst on guard duty or whatever, all free of charge?

I would agree with you that the loss of these 'perks' if you like was yet another kick in the teeth for the military, but is that any reason to now argue for a further reduction in 'perks' albeit for the aircrew minority??

Let me put it to you another way: If you were being 'flown' somewhere nice, on your holidays and with your family or friends, how would you feel if you knew that the Captain and Co-Pilot, hadn't eaten 'properly' for a few hours prior to the flight, and just had some quick 'junk food' that they had picked up prior to flight, on an 18 hour trip to say Hong Kong?? Would you be happy with that? Would you not feel happer knowing that they had been fed and watered properly, and were feeling 'good' prior to a landing some 18 hours later?

I would and so should you, because, as you will probably well know, we as humans do not perform well, if we have not been fed or watered. Now I'm not making excuses here for the aircrew. These are the facts, take them or leave them. Ask the guys at the Institute of Aviatiojn medicine at Farnboro' and they will explain it to you far better than I can. But please don't argue for one element of the service to lose a perk, simply because you have unfortunately lost one yourself.

And by the way, You will find that Aircrew, both Officer and NCO also lost the free meals for OO, guard duty, etc.It wasn't just restricted to the groundcrew.

Of course I could start another thread asking why it is that Officers HAVE to pay for their uniforms and the others don't!! but I shall refrain on this occasion.

The Winco

Rigex
25th May 2007, 10:23
Its a while since I parted company with the RAF ('78), but I spent time on (pseudo) transport sqdns, (115 Sdn Argosies, Varsitys), V-force, 2 TAF, Leapin' Heaps (Witt) etc, etc. Apart from a couple of prima donnas (meet them everywhere), there was never, in my experience, a great flyers / groundies divide, mutual respect was the norm.
In those (good) times, everyone got free food when on guard, exercise, flying, etc, even long road journeys! - and no-one coveted their neighbour's sarnie box, whether from aircrew rations or the mess.
As a Groundy, when the opportunity presented itself any "leftovers" from the aircraft were gratefully accepted, for various reasons including those mentioned above (cleaning the aircraft / no opportunity to get to the mess due to snag fixing, and so on). No-one made any big deal about it, it was just the way it was.
What really saddens me is to see the vitriolic sniping going on between a couple of guys (TSM & AGE) whose inputs I have enjoyed in the past.
That the bean counters / stealers have brought the state of moral in the service to this level is the real pity.

Come on guys, kiss and make up eh?


Incidentally, I did see one (Varsity) pilot open the cockpit side window and throw his sarnies out somewhere over the med. once, so perhaps that was an alternative to bringing them back!

MightyHunter AGE
25th May 2007, 10:31
Winco

A solid post and i doff my cap off to someone who has a voice of reason on a thread where we maybe went astray, forgive me but TSMs points were designed to provoke and I for one rose too quickly.

MHAGE

startermotor
25th May 2007, 10:35
Mightyhunter AGE still accepting your continuous crew pay i guess???? perhaps you should volunteer to give that up and save the RAF some money

A2QFI
25th May 2007, 10:57
Just as well some of your weren't around in the 1960s when V force aircrew got specially prepared FREE, pre and post flight meals. That would cause some very harsh banter I am sure, if it was still going on!

Wessex Boy
25th May 2007, 11:20
If you want to know why Aircrew need to be fed properly, read David Beatty's 'Naked Pilot' which is an easy to read study on Human Factors in air accidents.
We were not allowed to fly without first having breakfast. (Chargeable offence in my dim recollection)

toddbabe
25th May 2007, 11:42
Winco wrote
"The reason why aircrew have been rationed, and cointinue to be rationed is a simple one Human Physiology. Now you can believe it or not, but that is the fact why aircrew are given rations whilst on flying duties. I wouldn't argue with you about the simulator, but as far as flying duties are concerned, there is a real need (according to the medics) to be correctly rationed."
So what Groundcrew don't need fed for human Physiology?

"Would you not feel happer knowing that they had been fed and watered properly, and were feeling 'good' prior to a landing some 18 hours later?"

Firstly we are talking about uk flying where 18 hour flights don't happen and secondly let me reverse that quote by saying would you be happy getting into a jet that has just been serviced/rectified by a group of guys nearing the end of a shift without having been fed? the answer is of course NO, Neither group should have to do without, but should food be free for one group and not the next? of course not!

"And by the way, You will find that Aircrew, both Officer and NCO also lost the free meals for OO, guard duty, etc.It wasn't just restricted to the groundcrew."
I never mentioned that anything about ranks or trades when
talking about Guard duty entitlements:uhoh:
I personally feel that personnel on Stn duties shouldn't get their food for free, I agree that Aircrew should get food when flying and that ALL personnel work better and are more alert after having been fed and watered properly, what I disagree with strongly is that One group of people get food for free whilst doing their job, why? the crucial part here is the cost, I am not saying don't give aircrew food but just let them pay for it like the rest of the Airforce.
And Lastly You don't have to be a genius to know what I was saying about the Aircrew superiority complex being true in a large ammount of cases is still true.

teeteringhead
25th May 2007, 11:46
And weren't "high energy rations" (aircrew choccies) introduced at a time of sugar rationing .......


....... which finished IIRC in about 1954.....


[and I speak as a fully paid up (and slightly porky :rolleyes: ) member of the TWMR]

Winco
25th May 2007, 11:59
toddbabe,

You should be turning your argument around, and NOT moaning about the aircrew, that is my point Sir! You should be fighting to restore your LOST perks, not fighting to get the aircrew to lose theirs! What do you stand to gain by the aircrew losing their rations? The answer is absolutely nothing, so why are you doing it, if its not to cause ill-feeling between the aircrew and groundcrew? What is the point?

The fact is, if you feel its wrong that you have lost your 'free' meals (and I do agree with you 100% that its wrong) then fight about it. Put a post on here, write to the CAS, do whatever you want. I will support you and I'm sure so will the aircrew. But just because you have lost your ball, don't try and have the aircrews' ball taken away from them, please.

The Winco

TheWizard
25th May 2007, 12:03
This has to be one of the most amusing and pointless threads that have been on here for a long time. Isn't the PM function best employed for personal squabbles?
Meanwhile, somewhere in the East.......:rolleyes:

TOPBUNKER
25th May 2007, 12:35
Just to lighten things a little: -

What are the worst things you've been presented with in a lumpy box?

Grated mixed cheese and salad cream sandwiches or chicken & mushroom pies with real feathers inside would be my choice! And those nasty lard and pastry things trying to imitate sausage rolls.

TheSmiter
25th May 2007, 13:04
Agreed Wizard - nobody's interested in serious issues so lets run with this for a while :) Anyway I like a good fight :ouch: my money's on SuperAGE if he's the bloke I think he is!!!!

With all the recent cutbacks, the IF allowance is worth pennies now - I bring my own butty box, made with Mrs Smiter's loving hands, and feel much better for it.

However, up here at ISK the great maritime chefs would be turning in their graves. My first flight in Norman c.1980 - an 8 hour Tapestry, Freddy Q wearing the apron - Mars bar (non veggie), sarnies, sausage roll, jock pie, honkers, more honkers, DCS (dairy cream sponge) and 3 cups of coffee - then we called 'On task'. I was only sick the once, for 8 hours.

Other memorable galley performances:

The incomparable farmer Branters, who's Korma was to die for - literally, depending how much chicken sh1t was under the nail of the finger he used in lieu of the probe.

Fantastic performance by Jan - Surf & Turf out of Bermuda all the way to Lajes - BZ mate.

Ric's brilliant effort at home made curry - took all trip NAG and back - cut short by the underfloor and RTB - I never did get mine and the groundies couldn't work out if it was hyd oil or coriander.

Nice pot of tea and plate of jam and scones by Kirsty. :D

And of course, on the dark side, the use of rations as a weapon of war:

Glyn, bitter and twisted Jag mate, who thought all siggies were SAC's in green bags. Whoops! That was well worth the VERY special coffee, and other food stuffs with interesting and novel ingredients. :E


Do you have any stories from the galley?

Green Flash
25th May 2007, 13:13
Bensons crisps:confused: - for years only ever found in a white box.

And I once had a USAF white box; do not ever EVER complain about your RAF butty box until you've opened one of Incerliks' finest :yuk:

Wader2
25th May 2007, 13:31
I have been fed by the RNZAF, RAAF, USAF etc. The USAF one was best. It had an EAT BY Time on it. We had to scoff it down before flight and before it ran out of crew eating time.

The RAAF rations? well we were not airborne long enough to eat them all.

French? with wine.

Back to BEagles point about food hygiene or more properly Aviation Medicine that was the reason for the V-Force having PRE-FLIGHT and POST-FLIGHT meals as well as in-flight.

It was deemed necessary to eat a proper meal before flight that was low on cellulose and fat. In-flight was low quantity, high energy food. Post-flight was designed to ensure that the jaws were sufficiently exercised to allow air into the inner ear. Having suffered oxygen ear I assure you that is no joke.

Back on the food hygiene issue, cooked meals were provided by galley slaves on the Nimrod and Shackleton but no hygiene rules except, and I think this was unofficial, captain and copilot would eat different meals.

cornish-stormrider
25th May 2007, 14:43
couldn't we tie this one back to the cake eating fatboy lazy RAF needing compulsory pt. Perhaps the cuning b'stards in big offices said they don't want to play some sport, well we shall cut down on the cakes then.:sad::sad::E

midsomerjambo
25th May 2007, 14:53
Got to say it made I larf reading about the groundcrew nicking the leftover aircrew rations. The lord god almighty himself wouldn't have got me to even open an Vulcan aircrew rations box (something to do with the lack of a flight deck toilet don't you know:eek:)

MSJ

BEagle
25th May 2007, 15:35
You've obviously heard of a certain Victor driver, 'Logger' McD**** then!

The damn Crew Chief chundered in a Vulcan ration box which we took off the aeroplane prior to flying on from Goose to Offutt a few days later - and didn't tell anyone.

It took me 2 days to work out where the smell was coming from.

As for groundcrew theiving in-flight rations, it was often the way that you would be too busy on a good AAR flight to have time for a meal, so people used to put the still frozen meal into the crew room freezer. But the meals kept mysteriously disappearing overnight....

The cause was obvious. So one meal went into the freezer laced with salt. Still it disappeared. The next was laced with Epsom salts and chilli sauce - it too was stolen. I'll bet that hurt :uhoh:

The next groundcrew-bait Beef Curry was going to contain a frozen dog turd......

zedder
25th May 2007, 18:48
MightyHunter AGE
Ok lets all rush around and send a jet up without carrying out the correct procedure and paperwork just because your sarnies are going off then eh?

Correct procedure and paperwork hasn't been a strong point up here for the last couple of days has it!

enginesuck
25th May 2007, 18:49
I cant believe what i have read this afternoon - Super AGE - Ffs mate if the growbags dont get rationed i have to eat my wife's sandwiches !!

And you growbag types stop winding the crew chief up, because to be fair it makes you look a bit silly and actually offends other groundies such as myself reading this thread.

To be honest why are people even contemplating condoning further cuts to our meagre entitlements ?? Yes its unfair we dont get free food on guard etc but lets not cut off noses to spite our faces, I for one will be really peed off if my poached rice and champion crisps are taken away.:{

cornish-stormrider
25th May 2007, 21:39
Has the fur settled yet??

Right for all those who are having a spot of banter here, jokes over now.

If you are seriously having a pop at someone either PM them or arrange a meeting and say it to their face. This public mud slinging achieves co^k all.

It does make me laugh to see all the panic over the loss of free food.

TheSmiter
25th May 2007, 22:06
Loss of rations?

Bovvered? Nah!

Just as long as Mr Brown gives something back in return , oh and something to plug the hole where the tea pot normally goes.

I will miss the GulfAir seafood platter though - must cost a bl@@dy fortune.

samuraimatt
25th May 2007, 23:08
Right for all those who are having a spot of banter here, jokes over now.Yes sir. Sorry Sir.:uhoh:

If you are seriously having a pop at someone either PM them or arrange a meeting and say it to their face.Really sorry Sir. PM'ing them now Sir.:(

This public mud slinging achieves co^k all.Quite right Sir, very childish. I have had a word with the lads and they assure me it wont:= happen again Sir.

Winco
26th May 2007, 06:57
enginesuck

Well said that man. We must ALL make effort to stop the continuing erosion of entitlements, whether they be for the aircrew or the groundcrew.

If my comments have offended any geoundcrew, then I sincerely apologise to you all. In no way would I ever wish to do that. But we must all pull together over things like this, not see it as an opportunity for further, unnecessary aggression between us.

Heaven knows we have enough of a battle with Bliar, Brown and Browne without starting on each other chaps!

So banter is good, but lets just keep it at that shall we?

The Winco

TheSmiter
26th May 2007, 10:52
drip

drip

drip.......

nibble

nibble

nibble......


AND .............. CLICK :uhoh:

Pilot Pacifier
26th May 2007, 14:46
What are the worst things you've been presented with in a lumpy box?

Christmas Day in Afghanistan. Frozen sausage roll, not a lot else in the box. Lobbed it at some locals after just being mortared on a HLS. Hope they enjoyed the pork, if there was actually any in it. :}

toddbabe
26th May 2007, 15:49
Winco because my views differ greatly from yours don't make the mistake of assuming to know what it is I do for a living, I am not groundcrew!
I think it is wrong that duty meals have been taken away from shift workers, OO,Ord Sgt, Guard force etc but am not really that bothered as I do the duty that infrequently it really makes little difference.
But if we are being truly objective nobody can come up with a valid and justifiably honest reason for allowing one group of people to be fed for free whilst making others pay!
I am not campaigning for it to be payed for in much the same way as I am not asking anyone to bring back the duty meals, someone else started this thread I am simply playing devils advocate!
I havent lost "my ball" as you put it, Everyone who does a duty or a night shift has lost their ball, and as I said before you don't know what I do to be assuming that I am trying to take "The Aircrew's ball away"
This is a forum for discussion and debate, I am arguing that their is no justifiable reason for allowing one group of people to free food whilst the rest have to pay.
This in basic terms sends out a message to the already demoralised Ground trades that Aircrew are more important than the rest and will continue to get perks that you aren't entitled to, by arguing that Aircrew are deserved of free food you are in effect creating a rift between Aircrew and groundcrew without even thinking about it.

Sospan
26th May 2007, 15:57
Don't forget this thread.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=269176&highlight=food

Aircrew receiving meals free at public expense will also cease, so if in flight meals continue they will have to be paid for ! :E

Tourist
26th May 2007, 16:05
Not trying to be funny, but aircrew are more important than the rest!
Thats why we are paid more and far more is spent on training us.

And that's because anybody can play with spanners if you give them a haynes manual.

Any hierarchical structure has to give more perks to people further up the food chain or why would anybody bother to strive?

Blunties always seem to believe in some communist ideal where everybody is equal.
You aren't.
Should have tried harder at school.

Live with it.............

samuraimatt
26th May 2007, 16:13
Should have tried harder at school.Job: Administrative Officer

Qualifications: 5 GCSEs/SCEs and 2 A-levels or 3 Highers


Job: Pilot

Qualifications: 5 GCSEs/SCEs and 2 A-levels or 3 Highers

As you can see these are the educational requirements for two jobs in the RAF and as far as I can see, you don't actually have to work harder at school to be Aircrew.

Tourist
26th May 2007, 16:30
You are quite correct samurai.

Working hard at school makes no difference.
If they had, in fact, spent less time looking out of the window at school, they still wouldn't get to spend time looking out of it now.

We only say that to cheer them up

To be honest we were born with it, but it seems cruel to rub it in.:E

samuraimatt
26th May 2007, 16:33
To be honest we were born with it

Surely if you were born with "it" you would be a fast jet pilot and not a helicopter pilot.

charliegolf
26th May 2007, 16:55
Tourist:

"And that's because anybody can play with spanners if you give them a haynes manual."

And anyone can fly a plane. It really is only about time and money.

CG

Seldomfitforpurpose
26th May 2007, 17:24
You've hit the nail right on the head CG, it's precisely because of the huge amount of time and money needed that ONLY the best are selected for Aircrew :ok:

toddbabe
26th May 2007, 17:25
Tourist if they are worth more and are payed more then surely it's no problem for them to pay for their own food then is it?

Winco
26th May 2007, 18:19
toddbabe,

I'm afraid I don't agree with you, so let me play your game......
Give me a justifiable reason why I should have to pay for my uniform in its entirety, and you get yours absolutely 100% FREE.
Please explain that could you?
I'm not for a moment suggesting that you should pay or that things should change, but I am asking you to justify to me and the rest of the Officer Corps what justifiable reason you should get youras for nothing please.
Many thanks
The Winco

ps, As a pilot, with sole charge of a multi milliion pound aircraft, I do believe I am slightly more important than a scribbly frankly! Please note that I didn't say better, just more important.

Pontius Navigator
26th May 2007, 18:24
Winco, as an aside, I asked the same question, only reversed, of the AMP Team. The answer was that they could not afford to stock the clothing for free issue to officers.

That was patently b:mad:ks as they still had to stock it to sell it too us. The only valid reason was that we would have got new uniforms a lot more often if they were free.

Same reason why so many units wear CS95 all the time.

enginesuck
26th May 2007, 18:27
This thread really is taking the pi$$ now !

Can some of you remember that we play with spanners, so that you can land again after punching holes in the sky , if you expect our respect then you have to remember it works both ways, bloody grow up.

Phoney Tony
26th May 2007, 18:29
ps, As a pilot, with sole charge of a multi milliion pound aircraft, I do believe I am slightly more important than a scribbly frankly! Please note that I didn't say better, just more important.

So how important is the chap who fixes/ services several multi million pound aircraft a day.

toddbabe
26th May 2007, 19:16
Winco you are totally avoiding the question! I agree that you shouldn't have to pay for your uniform, why would I try and justify such a stupid rule?
As it happens I believe that you are more important as a pilot than a scribbly but by arguing that you should get free food when others don't just plays into everyones hands who already believe that Aircrew are a bunch of self important egotisits that believe they are above everyone else!
Now on a serious note, and it doesn't matter whether you agree with me or not please get back on thread and justify to the Whole RAF why Aircrew are entitled to free meals whilst flying in the UK on peacetime Ops and training.
If you can come up with a good reason then we would all love to hear it, because at the moment all you can come up with is we deserve it and don't rock the boat just because "your" perks have gone!
And please remeber I would love to see free food for everyone and am not despite your obvious thoughts trying to take away your free food but would love to know the justification for it.

Tourist
26th May 2007, 19:30
Toddbabe.

Of course we can afford it, we just do not wish to!

Samuraimutt

Fixed wing/rotary, its all the same.

Winco
26th May 2007, 20:25
toddbabe,

1. Did you read my earlier reply ref what the medics say about physiology and flying? They aren't my words, but those of the medical world.
2. Did you read what an earlier post said about 'the rules/regulations about aircrew and food blah?
3. I have never, ever said that we deserve it either! What I have explained, as in 1 & 2 above is that those are the rules.
4. I have never argued that we should get the free food, only that it is stupid for you chaps to argue against us getting it because you don't!

Now I appreciate that you have a problem accepting that aircrew get something that groundcrew don't but what would you suggest we do? We also get some real Gucci kit, and Gucci watch, Gucci socks, T shirts and Sox, so why don't you argue against those? I mean after all, we all have a watch don't we? And what shall we do with the rations? leave all the food on the jet for the groundcrew to have? Would that cheer you up a bit? You guys already get all the leftovers that you are NOT entitled to, but I don't hear of any aircrew running off to the RAFP telling them that the groundcrew are stealing rations!

Phoney Tony
May I refer you to what I wrote, and ask you to read it carefully please? It said........'As a pilot, with sole charge of a multi milliion pound aircraft, I do believe I am slightly more important than a scribbly frankly! Please note that I didn't say better, just more important'
I don't recall making any reference to aircraft engineers, only scribblies! As I have stated on many occasions on prune, I hold you chaps in the highest esteem, so please do not ever accuse me of degrading aircraft engineers - ever.

You are simply hell bent on moaning because 'we' get something for free that you don't, endex. Perhaps I should draft a memo to the AOC suggesting that as a further cost-cutting measure, all ranks should pay for their own uniforms eh? After all, if its good enough for you chaps, then its got to be good enough for the officers as well!

The Winco

samuraimatt
26th May 2007, 22:23
Fixed wing/rotary, its all the same

Of course it is Tourist.:hmm:

Seldomfitforpurpose
27th May 2007, 00:16
"Fixed wing/rotary, its all the same"

That's what all those who failed fast jet always say :rolleyes:

Winco,
Your biggest mistake was in trying to use logic on a women, that just aint gonna work :E

Tourist
27th May 2007, 06:51
Are you suggesting that Fixed wing pilots are better than rotary?

Winco
27th May 2007, 06:52
sffp
Yes, I think you may have a point there!

enginesuck
I am begining to think that you cannot read what is being written here. Just refer me to one post where the aircrew are, according to you anyway.....'laying it on thick about how bloody great they might be'
I, for one, have never said that, and I can't find anyone else on here who has said anything remotely like that either.

I'm delighted your last det' was a good one, and you got on with your aircrew in the right and proper way, and I trust they felt the same. I no longer have that aircrew/groundcrew problem with my current employer. They recognise (rightly or wrongly) that the Pilot is the person ultimately responsible for the lives and safety of all those on board. (In my case, something usually approaching 400 people) I don't think I'm self-centrered or self-opinionated, too arrogant or otherwise really, but if I say I want to have a 'fry-up' for my breakfast, and a curry for my lunch and sandwiches for an evening meal, then my employers make sure I get them, and whats more, I don't get my FO, Chf Purser, Cabin Services Director, any of the Hosties or indeed anyone in the company moaning at what I effectively get for free, and bleating about it!

We all get perks of one sort or another in life, if you are not happy with the ones you get, then the answer is but a simple one - join a team that does get the right perks for you!

Just about to leave for HK, so talk to you all next week.
The Winco

neilmac
27th May 2007, 09:34
I remember being an Ops Controller at Gib and a Nimrod crew asking me to sign their F540 cause they had missed dinner. Did you eat on the plane? Well yes we had rations was the reply well thats more then I have had I cant leave the bridge when your airborne and this tri service unit wont give me any missed meals!! I had to pay for take away food to be delivered when hungry when planes on task/inbound! Of course 9/10 times I signed, it depended how their attitude was and whether they had brought me haggis and tattie scones from gods country
:O
NM

Wensleydale
27th May 2007, 12:42
Neilmac,

Didn't know that they did haggis and tatty scones in Yorkshire!!

neilmac
27th May 2007, 14:42
Ah well done spotted the deliberate mistake.............head up a*** moment!
Never been good at remembering form numbers.
Its been a long boring day !

NM

toddbabe
27th May 2007, 18:04
I'll take that as a massive bite then Winco!:D and yet still no justification about how come rations are free.
Cheers for now.

Ken Scott
27th May 2007, 21:57
If I am on duty, say driving to a station for an appointment over a meal time, I can claim on JPA for a sandwich, drink & choc bar purchased in a service station. If I am flying over a mealtime in the UK I get a butty box provided, to make sure that I keep my energy & blood sugar levels at a sufficient level so that I don't do anything stupid like crash my £65 million aeroplane. It would be nice to be able to arrange all my flights to fit between meals but that wouldn't always make for a sensible flying program.
When I'm on route & working a 16 hr duty day I get a couple of meals for the same reason, & because I can't get to the mess, & it's rather silly to suggest that I should stop at a supermarket on the way to work, even if one's open at 0400, to pick up some food. Would anyone suggest that soldiers deploying on exercise on Salisbury Plain should take a few days self purchased food with them instead of supplying them with rations?
It's not about being self important, or perks, it's just plain sense & about making sure that aircrew eat properly when operating expensive machinery, which is often full of lots of people. I know that there are plenty of stories of crews or individuals abusing the system but that does not make the idea wrong. Should 'they' do away with rations it would be remarkably stupid, petty, potentially dangerous & unlikely to save a significant amount of money.

iss
27th May 2007, 22:37
"Should 'they' do away with rations it would be remarkably stupid, petty, potentially dangerous & unlikely to save a significant amount of money."
I agree - sounds PAYD for the rest of the Service though:\
Stupid, petty and potentially dangerous - but hey what is an MBE and directorship between friends:{

toddbabe
28th May 2007, 07:35
Ken you raise some valid points:D however imagine for a second you are a see in crew at Kinloss and it's your job too see in a Rod at 1145, by the time the crew are ten mins late after a few rollers and a long taxi, followed by servicing, refuelling and finally paperwork and tools check the mess has long shut for lunch! try inputting that on a JPA claim!:ugh:
Much like mess bills are added to by taking causal meals in the mess rations could be added to Aircrews monthly mess bills, everytime they fly the auth sheets are passed to the respective mess bills clerk, hey presto rations payed for easy peasy.
Winco seems to think I am somehow bitter that groundcrew and others have lost their duty meals entitlement (we all have) but really I couldn't give a toss and am not pushing for Aircrew to loose their entitlement to free rations, but the thread originated by saying that their is a chance the bean counters are trying to get rid of them, I am playing devils advocate by asking people to justify their freeness and nobody thus far actually can!

OilCan
28th May 2007, 08:13
"easy peasy" !!

...so the more I fly, the bigger my monthly mess bills:uhoh:

f*ck off and get real.:rolleyes:

120class
28th May 2007, 09:00
Personally, having recently tasted the offerings from a couple of Wiltshire bases you can keep the 'butty boxes' on short flights......a cup of coffee will do. :yuk:

Pontius Navigator
28th May 2007, 09:16
You've tried the coffee?

Tangential to the free aircrew rations is the question of free food and accommodation when away from base. I don't know the present rules but at one point there was a plan to charge for food and accommodation for more than 24 hrs. This meant that the Nav School, flying to Germany or wherever on long airways flights on Friday afternoon and returning Monday would attract food and accommodation charges.

Now this might have been no great hardship for a one-off 'perceived' jolly with all the 'excitement' of a run ashore in foreign climes. For the staff pilots flying what was essentially a weekly bus trip into Europe it was quite different. They were giving up a weekend with their family on at least a monthly basis and then being expected to pay for the priviledge of working the weekend. I don't think they got proper time off in lieu.

They quiet calmly said if we pay then we don't night stop. This would have meant everyone having to open the airfield late on a Friday to recover the aircraft and also for the groundcrew to do all the pre-flights the following Monday - all extra work.

The charges were scrapped.

toddbabe
28th May 2007, 09:52
Oil can it is real! if you eat food why don't you pay for it? it's a very simple:mad: question.
Flying is your job, being for eg a dental hygenist is someone elses, why should you be entitled to free food when they aren't?
Swearing and getting lippy doesn't answer the question.

Seldomfitforpurpose
28th May 2007, 11:37
Now then blondebabe what you perceive as playing devils advocate is in fact you painting yourself as rather silly. You have asked for justification and you have had it in abundance but, as I pointed out to Winco logic and women are two things that rarely mix successfully :rolleyes:

"Ken you raise some valid points:D however imagine for a second you are a see in crew at Kinloss and it's your job too see in a Rod at 1145, by the time the crew are ten mins late after a few rollers and a long taxi, followed by servicing, refuelling and finally paperwork and tools check the mess has long shut for lunch! try inputting that on a JPA claim!:ugh:"

That statement young lady proves just how silly you are being as it has been pointed out on several occasions the lineys at the bases this subject applies to NEVER go short on the food front as there is always plenty left on board or stored in various coffee bars.............I wonder when the last time tea or coffee was actually purchased for said tea bars??

Now stop being a silly little thing and find your self some ironing or what ever it is you young gels find to do on a bank holiday and leave the grown up's to get on with this debate :=

The Swinging Monkey
28th May 2007, 12:01
Just back from a little jaunt to somewhere hot and pretty ****ty really, and amazed to find this still charging on, and toddbabe making a even bigger twit of herself than before.

Madam, no matter what anyone here says, you will argue FOR the loss of aircrew rations no matter what. As has been repeatedly pointed out to you, rations are there for a number of reasons, not least of all flight safety. Thats the end of it for me. You are clearly hell bent on arguing for the sake of it, and all you are achieving is making a complete fool of yourself. I noticed that neither you or Nimrod AGE (the crew chief!) said anything about refusing in flight meals whenever you have gone flying, why is that? Did you refuse them and hand them back to in-flight? No, of course you didn't, why should you?

As SFFP rightly points out, your crew room will have enough tea, coffee, milk, sugar, biscuits and frozen meals to last a lifetime, so stop whinging and grow up. Your hypocracy just pi$$es off aircrew and it isn't necessary.

I kind of hope that the Winco does drop a line to his AOC and asks that everyone should pay for their uniforms, especially you lot. Then you would really have something to gripe about.

TSM

ZH875
28th May 2007, 12:17
I kind of hope that the Winco does drop a line to his AOC and asks that everyone should pay for their uniforms, especially you lot. Then you would really have something to gripe about.

TSMAnd then we can all look forward to you losing your 'Uniform Allowance', but you wouldn't want to mention that you get Uniform allowance as well as free meals, would you? ;)

Maybe if we had to pay for our uniforms, we might actually be able to make them improve the quality of the :mad: stuff that we are forcibly issued with.

Your obedient servant
grovel grovel
doffs hat
touches forelock etc

ZH

(just as long as aircrew inflight rations still have the Mars Bars in, makes raiding them worthwhile!)

OilCan
28th May 2007, 12:33
toddbabe

Your "easy peasy" solution would have me paying for the privilage of simply being at work - whether I ate the food or not. :uhoh:

Devils advocate my ar*e, more like beacounters advocate. :suspect:

Lets make it a level playing field - I'll fly after breakfast, land before lunch, if there are any aeroplanes left I'll fly again in the afternoon and be home for tea. - now that's easy peasy. ;)

The Swinging Monkey
28th May 2007, 12:43
ZH875

Do you think that the allowance you talk about even remotely covers the costs of uniforms etc? You need assessment if you do! I'm quite happy to tell you what my allowance is (if I knew it!) but I can tell you that the allowance wouldn't even buy me a new hat! let alone all the other trousers, shirts blah!
The people who stand to lose if we all had to pay for uniforms is everyone (except the officers though!)
Sounds like a good plan to me anyway.

Ken, are you suggesting that when a jet lands at ISK (or anywhere) the groundcrew trot out to it and work on it non-stop until it is 100% fixed, forgoing food, drink and anything else in the meantime? NO? I didn't think you were, but thats what it sounded like.

TSM

parabellum
28th May 2007, 12:46
I think a few valid points have been missed here.
The sole purpose of providing in-flight catering is to ensure that crews remain alert and blood sugar levels stay high, this includes the possibility of prolonged holding and an eventual diversion, if everything goes according to plan then it is highly probable that there will be food left over, equally it is possible that if major delays and diversions occur that on board food will be much appreciated in keeping alert levels high and saving the multi-million dollar airframe.

Sadly the Powers That Be have come to the conclusion that if you work on the ground then you are expected to be in attendance for scheduled meals or have an opportunity to self cater, penny pinching at it's worst as ground crews work shift work and not 9 to 5, just shows how little the
PTB know about how things really work, just shows how little your Lords and Masters have bothered to make them aware.

mojocvh
28th May 2007, 12:52
....to turn on the kenwood again.....It was previously mentioned that the A/crew (quite rightly) need the rations from an aviation medicine viewpoint.....however it should be pointed out that they "are" carrying out a task that they have trained and practiced for until it has become second nature.......now look at your "average" erk on the gate, live armed and green carded to death. He (or she) is not carrying out their daily duties and in fact are in an environment that is alien to then carrying out duties that they are not familiar with (what ever did happen to the RAFP??) and speaking (from very hard won experience) demotivated to an alarming extent (ever watched a cook cock up his unload/load drills at 4:30 AM fit the mag then working parts forward catch off to fire off the action??????? :eek:)

Now when all the ground trades were subject to these cuts just how much of a stir did "the other half" make????? Or was it a case of keep our collective heads down screw you jack were alright??

Awaiting the usual friendly banter in reply.

MoJo

Pontius Navigator
28th May 2007, 13:18
TSM, the uniform allowance was, the last year or so, £367 free of tax. Therefore if you pay tax at 22% it was worth the grand total of £80.74. Next year, if it is not increased it will fall to £73.40. If you are fortunate enough to pay tax at 40% then the allowance is £146.80.

A few years ago, when the allowance was just over £360 the total value over 5 years was about £400. The cost of working dress, is shoes, socks, shirt, trousers and sweater, over 5 years and based on the life of each was exactly the same £400.

The allowance did not cover No 1s, No 5, dress shirts, SD Hats, Forage Caps, Flasher Mac, Bomber Jacket, Leather jacket etc. If you did buy any of these items then you could claim the income tax back - ie for a £100 cap you could get £22 back.

So what happens? Officers wear their uniforms far longer than airmen. Even the CAS, Sir Michael Graden had holes in his woolly pully when he visited Waddo a few years ago.

ZH875
28th May 2007, 13:41
I can tell you that the allowance wouldn't even buy me a new hat! let alone all the other blah!

So here we have the REAL reason that aircrew need an operation to remove them from their growbags, they are FREE, so they must be worn as much as possible, even in jobs where flying is as much a possibility as my rocking horse having a :mad:.

Keep taking the happy pills (they are free as well)

Len Ganley
28th May 2007, 15:29
Toddbabe

.....by the time the crew are ten mins late after a few rollers and a long taxi, followed by servicing, refuelling and finally paperwork and tools check the mess has long shut for lunch

Have you tried 'phoning the mess and booking a late lunch or some butties???????

gar170
28th May 2007, 15:55
should be no excuses anymore with a little help.

http://www.channel4.com/life/microsites/F/fword/fword3_raf.html

ZH875
28th May 2007, 16:05
should be no excuses anymore with a little help.

http://www.channel4.com/life/microsites/F/fword/fword3_raf.html

http://www.channel4.com/life/media/F/fword/raf/raf01_400.jpg
"After a supersonic spin in a Harrier Jump Jet"......:suspect:

Froobs
28th May 2007, 16:06
More crap reporting. Didn't realise we had supersonic Harriers.

cornish-stormrider
28th May 2007, 16:16
Don't you know anything. Thats the new harrier with the transformers mod which is released in time for the movie.......July this year for those not in the know. Robots in disguise etc. I cannot believe that there is still this level of moaning about in flight rations. As an ex liney we were always hugely grateful for the snax as they were of much better fayre than the mess.

Pontius Navigator
28th May 2007, 16:44
ZH875 So here we have the REAL reason that aircrew need an operation to remove them from their growbags, they are FREE, so they must be worn as much as possible, even in jobs where flying is as much a possibility as my rocking horse having a .

Clearly you haven't been near the HQs recently. There is more CS95 in sight than paid for uniforms and not a bit of mud in sight

Krystal n chips
28th May 2007, 16:59
Been reading this topic with bemused interest. I can't, for the life of me, see why people think aircrew being fed for free is a "perk"......it's a very simple and salient fact crews have to be fed for all the Flight Safety issues mentioned....nothing more or less. This detail of course has been lost on the beancounter fraternity which is where the real ire should be directed.

Never part of the ME world so I can't comment on the "custom and practice" of the removal of food ( other than one dark and sh$%y night at Valley when a Shack lobbed in...the M/Eng appears with a simple proposition--"Here's the food, here's the oil, there's the engines".)...seemed like a fair deal to us at the time. However, in the civi world, it's pretty much the same on a Line station..there are the written rules and the "unwritten rules".....just like the RAF in fact...about removal of food and other items like tea and coffee....after the flight. I never went hungry and neither does any Line engineer if you play the game properly. Simple as that.

On the subject of Vulcan crew meals however, as I understand it there was a Hot Loc type of tub for in flight hot meals ? I mention this because also at Valley, a Vulcan dropped in on a Mickey Finn and said crew had to be fed...unfortunately, for them, the duty cook ( euphimism here ) was the original SAC Bloggs ....hence on nights we came to the "arrangement" of cooking our own meals when he was on duty....thus ensuring we got fed !.....however, your man excelled himself on this occassion by providing....jam sarnies:ugh: in lieu of anything more substantial....which must have been an interesting experience for the crew when they came to eat !

Yeller_Gait
28th May 2007, 18:36
Mojo...


Now when all the ground trades were subject to these cuts just how much of a stir did "the other half" make????? Or was it a case of keep our collective heads down screw you jack were alright??


I think that you will find that at the ME flying stations, (certainly the ones I have been at) the NCO aircrew do at least their fair share of guarding duties, and probably complain as much as the rest with regard to lack of free meals for guards.

Now perhaps we might look at why half of the blunties (admin) manage to avoid doing guard/commander shifts such that engineers and squadron NCA end up doing more than the average?

Y_G

toddbabe
28th May 2007, 19:02
It's not difficult reading is it?:ugh: read the thread in it's entirety before jumping in with comments about Aircrew needing fed for flight safety reasons and blood sugar levels blah blah, I never said don't feed em just asked why the very important sugar rich food they devour is free!
Now just because the bean counters are looking at your ivory tower don't get all arsey and start whingeing about groundcrew having t bars full of stuff and ring the mess for late lunches etc.
First of all in the JR's mess if you ask for a late lunch you will get zero choice, they will plate up a pile of chips, beans and a pie and zap it in the micro when you pick it up, apart from that even when you do get your late lunch you still have to pay for it!
Secondly you aren't seriously asking the people who make your aircraft airworthy to sustain themselves on whatever you may have left over ( 10 hour old sarnies, the odd chicken korma and a spare tray of doughnuts ) are you ?:=
There is a lot of avtur fuelled testosterone floating about this thread and some people are getting just a little miffed at my comments, tough!
The question is still there to be answered and it isn't about blood sugar, why do Aircrew get free food when nobody else does?

ZH875
28th May 2007, 19:25
The question is why do Aircrew get free food when nobody else does?

Because the Air Force is run for Aircrew, by Aircrew, and the only people that matter are Aircrew.

If you can get flying pay for not flying, why waste flying pay when flying by paying for food.

Just don't ask what the additives are!.

I am not aircrew, I never wanted to be aircrew, and I did well enough at school.

samuraimatt
28th May 2007, 19:29
If you can get flying pay for not flying

Why then do the Movers get continuous crew pay when they don't fly on the Aircraft.

blogger
28th May 2007, 19:49
This sort of stuff is why the RAF is going the way it is.... after 25 years I have had enough the towel has been thrown in....

As a Chf Tech I am sick to death of the cuts cuts cuts.. Just done Guard duty 7 days of 13 hours (1/2 hour hand over each end of 12 hour shift)

Thats 91 hours work in a week and not even a butty or a cold cup of tea provided so what was my blood sugar level with a loaded gun in my hands?

And aircrew moan about cuts to their free lunch for god's sake they are on more flying pay than some LAC's and SAC's take home in wages.

Come on Sir's get real and join the club of 'no free lunch's' as the rest of us have to do. Or sort it out for the little people like the LAC's and SAC's on guard shift .......... one rule for the fly boys tough for the rest EH.

Days to do then it's 2 fingers.

mojocvh
28th May 2007, 19:49
Old Yeller...........glad you kept it at "NCO Aircrew" there, chap!

As you will be aware my argument was it is just not Aircrew that need proper feeding to stay in tip top shape.

rgds

MoJo

Yeller_Gait
28th May 2007, 19:55
Totally agree Mojo, especially for the guard force. It is a disgrace that all guards are not entitled to free meals.

Y_G

Froobs
28th May 2007, 20:06
The Blood Sugar argument has got to be the crappiest I have read on this thread. If you are working hard physically then it may affect it. But sitting on your fat ass, I don't think so.

blogger
28th May 2007, 20:09
The Blood Sugar argument has got to be the crappiest I have read on this thread. If you are working hard physically then it may affect it. But sitting on your fat ass, I don't think so.

well said :ok::D:ok::D:ok::D:ok::D

Seldomfitforpurpose
28th May 2007, 20:20
I had hoped the bimbo had gone off to do the ironing but she seems to still be bleating :=

"But sitting on your fat ass, I don't think so."

I just love that, well done chap as that is such an informed comment :rolleyes:

The Swinging Monkey
28th May 2007, 20:41
sffp

We are clearly wasting our time here, so I would suggest we just give up gracefully and let these bleating, whinging groundies get on with it.
But with immediate effect, I think that the next time I see one member of the groundcrew take a single teabag of an aircraft, a half jar of coffee or anything, I will report the matter to the RAFP. So beware groundies, those of you who are doing all the bleating, make sure you let all your mates know that the end is certainly nigh!
TSM

God, you'll be bleating next because you don't get flying pay like us!!

Pontius Navigator
28th May 2007, 20:46
I think we could save a lot of money by abolishing the Aviation Medicine Training Centre. Clearly, over the past 50 odd years the doctors there have been talking a load of bollocks.

Equally that parsimonious CinC of Bomber Command who set up basic dispersals throughout the country missed a trick when he allowed the caterers to set up aircrew feeders at all the main bases AND at the dispersals.

XferSymbol
28th May 2007, 21:22
This thread is starting to cross the line between fairly enjoyable, rumour-fuelled banter to a pathetic argument between people who work on the same side, usually for similar reasons.

As someone who used to work in an engineering capacity, for the greener of our three services, I can understand the feeling that those working to keep the aircraft fit can get - that is, that they are sometimes taken for granted and are getting the ****ty end of the stick. You work your pods (or tits) off for very little in the way of thanks, often having to graft an inordinate amount of hours just to achieve the bare minimum. And no-one is trying to imply that you are any less intelligent than anyone else; my professianal quals and degree were gained as an engineer, not as an aircrewman.

As someone who transferred into the RAF as aircrew, it is irksome to see that a minority of non-aircrew feel the need to direct their problems at us. Trust me, your efforts are recognised but the respect will fall away quickly if the bitchiness continues.

I'm sure this was said earlier in the thread but I reckon it needs repeating. We are all on the same side ffs. Groundcrew, instead of trying to make sure that someone isn't getting more than you, try to redirect the effort into getting something that most would say you are entitled to.....rationing during your shift. It is a long time to be at work and in the same way that the aircrews need to be sustained, so do the others that make every sortie possible. Where and why did the feeders go anyway?

I hope that many of those posted on this thread agree with me in saying that it has run its course and, the right to express your opinion withstanding, needs to die the appropriate death.

Other services who look at this forum are laughing at this thread. It is starting to read like squabbling kids in the school playground.

:zzz:

Froobs
28th May 2007, 22:01
Who are you to say so XFer?

Zhivago
28th May 2007, 22:11
You know I have just read the thread of the guy who has ben refused Cancer treatment. It should put you all to shame harping on about rations.

Froobs
28th May 2007, 22:31
Zhivago, lot's of people are dying/have died these days for the cause. Stop being so sanctimonious

OilCan
28th May 2007, 22:37
why do Aircrew get free food when nobody else does?

Actually, everybody gets free food - ...when they fly. :p

parabellum
29th May 2007, 01:54
So the blood sugar levels argument is a load of cr@p is it? Shame they wasted all those months and months on the B52 fleet, airborne 24 hours at a time with crews all on different feeding, sleeping and cockpit lighting scenarios isn't it?
Each group were studied by medics before, during and after flight and throughout the period of the test whilst on the ground. The USAF eventually produced a book two inches thick on the subject.
There is a mass of information available from this and other publications on the subject and a few of the conclusions drawn were: Prior to flying, about two and a half hours, a substantial meal high in protein, during the flight liquid at least every twenty minutes and a high carbohydrate snack every thirty minutes to sustain hydration and sugar levels at the optimum for carrying out the airborne duty without quality of work suffering in any way. Where snacks are not available suitable meals should be eaten at regular intervals.
There are pages and pages on sleeping patterns, recommended and not recommended etc. and an interesting one about cockpit lighting, if not required off for tactical reasons then by keeping the cockpit as bright as possible/reasonable fatigue can be reduced by as much as 75%, something to do with the brain not releasing the natural melatonin because keeping the lights on fools the brain into thinking it is still day.

So for those of you who have come to the stunning conclusion that blood sugar levels of crew are unimportant I suggest you contact your nearest Specialist in Aviation Medicine.

The Swinging Monkey
29th May 2007, 07:00
toddbabe,

Clearly your own blood-sugar level has plummeted to a level where you either cannot read, cannot understand or you have just gone completely bonkers! You had better enrole as aircrew fast, and get the level back up to that of a normal human being my dear lady.

Clearly my threat to 'grass you up' to the cops, the next time you nick the aircrew rations, has touched a nerve, and I detect you are trying to find reverse mode. There have been several explanations on this thread, from eminantly qualified people, explaining why we get rationed, however you feel they are not good enough, so you keep banging on, asking the same question.

I notice that you never answer a single question ever put to you though. So let me give you just 2 if I may:

1 Justify to me why you should get your shoes, trousers (or skirts) shirts, hats and everything else absolutely 'scot free' please, when I and every other officer has to pay for theirs.
2 Justify to me why, whenever we take any groundcrew flying, for any reason at all, they also get free food.

If you can answer those points I would be most grateful. If you can't, I would suggest you get back into your littlle crew room (the one with all the aircrew rations in it) and shut the %$£% up! Because you are as sure as hell making a real arse of yourself ma'am.

TSM

Pontius Navigator
29th May 2007, 07:14
parabellum, an interesting one about cockpit lighting, if not required off for tactical reasons then by keeping the cockpit as bright as possible/reasonable fatigue can be reduced by as much as 75%, something to do with the brain not releasing the natural melatonin because keeping the lights on fools the brain into thinking it is still day

This is an interesting one which I discovered back on the Vulcan. After a good night's sleep and a social hours sortie, I found myself yawning my head off before I got in the aircraft.

I suddenly realised that the brain knew I was going into a relatively warm, cosy, darkened environment, ideal for a snooze. As a Nav rad of course bright lights were a no no.

27mm
29th May 2007, 07:34
Ah, Pontious, thank you for bring us back to earth. Remember bumming a trip in a Shack from Leeming up to Lossie (or maybe it should be voyage), but anyway, was very well looked after by the crew. They sat me in the front turret, with a stupendous view and a hot pie every 20 minutes.....

BluntedAtBirth
29th May 2007, 09:27
I notice that you never answer a single question ever put to you though. So let me give you just 2 if I may:

1 Justify to me why you should get your shoes, trousers (or skirts) shirts, hats and everything else absolutely 'scot free' please, when I and every other officer has to pay for theirs.


Officers get automatic tax relief on a notional, average expenditure on uniform. Unless you replace your No 1s or No5s, this is a reasonable deal at 20% and 'very nice thank you' at 40% (for sqn ldr and above) tax. Clearly, if you eat too many pies on a trip you might be on the wrong side of the cost/benefit equation.

Ken Scott
29th May 2007, 09:44
Toddbabe: Let me get this straight: I go flying & then am charged on my mess bill for a meal - do they charge just a standard rate, or will I have to sign to say I had a curry(but no popadoms!), or just a tuna roll? If I'm not hungry & don't eat anything, will I still be charged? If no one eats any of the rations will the full cost of the wasted food be split between the whole crew? If I'm paying for all the food now, will I still leave any of the leftovers on the aircraft for the groundcrew? If we're charged on a standard rate per number of flying hours, much as our entitlements are currently based, & I have to hold before landing & slip into the next bracket, do they then charge me the higher rate of meal even though we were only provided with butty boxes?

If you eat in the mess you pay for what you actually consume, not what someone thinks you might possibly eat, otherwise it's pretty unfair.

Will ANYONE want to stay in an air force that charges you for the food you consume while flying their aircraft during a 16 hour day, when the alternatives(BA, Virgin etc) don't?

As I said in my original post, should those going on exercise have to provide their own rations, or maybe they should have to pay for their Compo? I think ALL personnel on DUTY that keeps them away from the normal source of meals (home or mess) should get a meal provided - that includes groundcrew working over a mealtime, gate guards, and aircrew flying who don't have an option to go to the Naafi or the mess. (It dosen't include those who would normally eat at home but are at work.) If I am compelled to purchase my own food before flight, there is a minefield of H&S legislation to negotiate (food poisoning due to lack of storage facilities before flight?) & I will be spending my crew duty in the supermarket, it's not what crew rest is for!

The Swinging Monkey
29th May 2007, 10:26
BluntedAtBirth
Was your posting meant to be justification???
I'm afraid I don't understand the point of your responce, does it have one?
The question was quite simple really: 'Justify to me why you should get your shoes, trousers (or skirts) shirts, hats and everything else absolutely 'scot free' please, when I and every other officer has to pay for theirs'
Explaining the current tax regulations (if they were correct) was very well put, but it's hardly justification is it? Or did you go to the 'toddbabe school of justification' ?? And do you really think 20% is a good deal??
Anyway, I liked your constructive comments about eating pies - well done, oh how I chuckled! Nearly burst my seams with that one!
TSM
ps Isn't it strange how all the groundcrew seem to have quiet about the 'nicking rations from the jet' argument eh?? Maybe they are too busy clearing out the crewrooms before Mr Plod pitches up!

BluntedAtBirth
29th May 2007, 10:56
TSM,

My point was explanation not justification; in a world where 'harmonizing' regulations is virtually a new religion the discrepancy over charging officers for non-protective uniform has been 'avoided' because, on average, most officers would lose money from the removal of the tax relief. Those who would suffer most would be the ones who spend most of their duty time in free-issue protective clothing (CS95, flying suits). The last time I did some rough calculations based on overall 'sales' of uniform to officers at a well-known StratAT MOB it was a good deal.

Personally speaking, this whole arguement seems pointless to me. If you are in an aircraft either flying me, or flying over me, I would like you and the rest of the crew to be in good form, which must mean eating when required and eating food prepared in an appriopriate (ie in-flight catering) environment. I would imagine that eating on a long mission isn't really a matter choice as a BOI finding we had just taken 250+ casualties because the crew's reactions had been slowed by low blood sugar levels would be difficult. So, its your duty to stuff your face as far as I am concerned and if it's a duty it should be free.

As to bursting your seams at the pie-eating quip, as it wasn't that funny really perhaps the pies are challenging your existing clothing already?

cornish-stormrider
29th May 2007, 11:08
Will everybody please stop whining.
1. Aircrew need to be fed to fly safely. Fact
2. Lineys deal with left over food. Fact
3. There ought to be meals provided for guards etc. Fact
4. Pay as You Dine was a good idea. Fact
5. All of the military is run by accountants. Fact
6. Said accountants get huge pay rises and perks for every percentage point they shave. Fact
7. These bean counters cannot see beyond a spreadsheet, for them nothing else is real. To them Flight Safety is someone elses job. FACT.

I would like nothing more than going for a flight, secure in the knowledge that up front in the pointy end, the seat/stick interface has had a full load of pies and is compus mentalists enough to drive me to my destination. How many of these moaning blunties have ever taken a ride in a pointy go go ship and seen first hand how hard the job actually is. TSM and PN and other aircrew. I have never believed in the theory of the aircrew being a master race, when I was in we all were a team achieving the mission:ok:.
Then we would go and get pissed, don't tar us all with the same brush as some of these moaning feckers that are too miserley to see the need for free food.

Can I have a pie please mr Pilot Sir:p?

Green Flash
29th May 2007, 11:11
They sat me in the front turret, with a stupendous view and a hot pie every 20 minutes.....

Bl@@dy hell 27, I wish I'd known that sooner! I'd have joined 10 years earlier. Winged heaven ......








.... now back to the show.

Green Flash
29th May 2007, 11:15
If, due to a properly fed pilot, he gets me home in one piece, or she doesn't drop a Paveway in my mess tins, or they medivac my injured mate out of the ****, then I really don't give a stuff about flying rations. That's all.

MightyHunter AGE
29th May 2007, 12:13
TSM
Isn't it strange how all the groundcrew seem to have quiet about the 'nicking rations from the jet' argument eh?? Maybe they are too busy clearing out the crewrooms before Mr Plod pitches up!

The reason why no-one is posting a reply is becuase they are treating you with the contempt you deserve.
You have already shown your true colours on your attitude towards the ground crew, as for calling the plods, go ahead, just remember it works both ways.
Next time you crew out of your jet and fill your pockets with free food meant to be for a sortie, I am sure the ground crew (who know who you are) wont be quite as petty as you obviously are, grow up and get a life ground crew hater.

cornish-stormrider
29th May 2007, 12:29
I was wondering when another whinging moaner would show up. old air force axiom.

IF YOU CAN'T TAKE A JOKE YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE JOINED.

toddbabe
29th May 2007, 14:50
Sinking monkey I was going to pm you but what the hell!
"Clearly my threat to 'grass you up' to the cops, the next time you nick the aircrew rations, has touched a nerve, and I detect you are trying to find reverse mode. There have been several explanations on this thread, from eminantly qualified people, explaining why we get rationed",

I am in no way trying to find a reverse mode, you call the police I couldn't give a toss and you know what? neither could they! do you really feel the police are going to give a flying **** about linies taking 8 hour old scraps back to the crew room when they are destined for the bin otherwise! wake up and smell your free cofee!

"We" that means me as well are not arguing against these "eminantly qualified" people about why Aircrew get rations but are merely asking in the interests of the thread subject matter why they are free! That is at least the fourth time I have mentioned it now! perhaps you should read the thread properly!!!!!

Questions you asked
1 Justify to me why you should get your shoes, trousers (or skirts) shirts, hats and everything else absolutely 'scot free' please, when I and every other officer has to pay for theirs.
2 Justify to me why, whenever we take any groundcrew flying, for any reason at all, they also get free food.
A 1 I have already told you that I believe it is a quite ridiculous rule that officers have to pay for their uniforms, what else do you want me to say?
A 2 the groundies flying with you get free food because you do! not a difficult answer that one was it?

Ken once again your post is the closest thing to a sensible answer that I have seen:D however,
"Let me get this straight: I go flying & then am charged on my mess bill for a meal - do they charge just a standard rate, or will I have to sign to say I had a curry(but no popadoms!), or just a tuna roll? If I'm not hungry & don't eat anything, will I still be charged?"
If say for example I was pushing for this to actually happen which you all clearly think I am! then yes you would pay for a set meal rate no matter how much or little you actually consumed, much in the same way that every liver in has to do now!!! and when you go the mess for a casual meal you pay a set rate there as well, regardless of how much you actually eat.
So in fact the system could be incredibly simple, I am sure some
"eminantly qualified" people may struggle with the simplicity of it all but hey!
It's not me trying to take anyones food off them or anyones free food off them it's the bean counters, so if you can't answer my questions about justification without losing it and resorting to sexist and derogatory comments then I suggest you start practising because you haven't got a leg to stand on from where I am sitting.

c-bert
29th May 2007, 15:07
Gents, is it not time to draw this to a close? This thread has becoming something of an embarrassment. :(

As others have said, surely we should be campagining for everyone with a claim to get free food, rather than nobody...

ORAC
29th May 2007, 16:35
cornish-stormrider,

IIRC this phrase was rewritten in the 90s as:

IF YOU CAN'T TAKE IT, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE JOINED A JOKE.... :ouch::ouch:

Seldomfitforpurpose
29th May 2007, 17:05
blondebabe,

Are you not reading all of the replies or is it that, in typical feminine style you just love a row :rolleyes:

Plenty of folk have told you why we have in flight rations, simply because the AV Med folk say we need to have them to operate the aircraft safely, or do you dispute THAT fact.

Because the AV Med folk say we need them to operate the aircraft safely they are provided for us, free of charge by our employers who recognise that as the AV Med folk have said to operate the aircraft safely crews need to eat high energy food during flight.

Now if you accept the recommendations of the AV Med folk, as our employers have the you must agree that the provision of suitable in flight rations is essential for the SAFE operation of our aircraft. If you also accept that in the litigious society we live in it would be simply daft not to ensure that crews eat properly whilst flying and the simplest method for that is to actuall supply the food for aircrew to eat thereby ensuring the safe operation of our aircraft as recommended by the AV Med folk.

Now if there is anything there you don't understand please feel free to PM me for more info but to sum up:-

The AV Med folk say to operate our aircraft safely aircrew need to eat suitable in flight food, our employers in recognising the recommendations of these Med Specialists have decided the easiest way of ensuring that crews eat suitable in flight rations is to supply them free of charge to all crew which I think answers your question as to why we have free in flight rations :rolleyes:

Pontius Navigator
29th May 2007, 17:34
Bluntedat Birth, thank you for confirming what I said in post 112 at 1418 yesterday.

The amount of money 'lost' if free blues were issued as well as free greens is insignificant. When it comes to replacing No 1s becasue of too many free pies then it is no contest. The tax relief for a number 1, 22% or 40%, means the officer is well out of pocket compared with the airman.

Also there is the cost of kit insurance to consider.

So let all have free uniform and then at least we could all be as smart as the starving airmen.

toddbabe
29th May 2007, 18:36
Seldom

"Now if there is anything there you don't understand please feel free to PM me for more info but to sum up:-

The AV Med folk say to operate our aircraft safely aircrew need to eat suitable in flight food, our employers in recognising the recommendations of these Med Specialists have decided the easiest way of ensuring that crews eat suitable in flight rations is to supply them free of charge to all crew which I think answers your question as to why we have free in flight rations :rolleyes:"
I am truly banging my head against a brick wall:ugh:there really is no point to this thread continuing at all!
All of your above is fine and dandy, we all agree that people need fed for flight safety! well done:D will flight safety suffer if the same food is supplied and eaten but payed for by a simple system? I rest my case!
Some people will never see what they don't want to see.:bored:

BEagle
29th May 2007, 18:48
"I am truly banging my head against a brick wall:ugh:there really is no point to this thread continuing at all!"

There really is no point. So will someone please put an end to this absurd thread.

The Swinging Monkey
29th May 2007, 19:19
OK, last post on this, and then endex

AGE, if you read all of the posts on this forum, and on others I have posted such as the Nimrod loss etc. you will ee absolutely clearly that I am in no way a groundcrew hater, that is just stupid. It is an utterly absurd thing to say, especially after all the support I have given to you all, particularly over the loss of XV230, and how hard pressed you guys are.

toddbabe
All you keep harping on about is for the aircrew to justify why they get free rations, and you don't get the same on guard duty. I don't need to justify it, it's the current rules and regs, and thats the end of it. As I, and many others, have constantly repeated to you, we all agree that those on guard duty et al should also get fed absolutely free. I am with you on that point. Don't forget that aircrew do gate guard as well as you do!
As for the RAFP - if you don't think they would be interested, then you clearly don't know the RAFP!! They would have a field day over such a thing -just ask AGE, I think someone of his experience would agree. I am delighted that you agree with the Officers uniform argument, maybe you are seeing some light? But how many Officers do you know who have bleated on, either at ISK, Waddo, Brize, PPrune like you have, about having to pay for their uniforms? The answer is none. That rule was in when we joined, so we accept it. You on the otherhand, look upon the rations argument as though it is something the aircrew have just dreamt up, but because you have lost your free rations, you think that the aircrcew should lose theirs also, and thats what gets your goat madam - the fact that aircrew are getting something that you have now lost! get over it, or go aircrew!
As for the argumant you put to Ken Scott, why should the aircrew revert to a pi$$-poor system like the one the 'livers-in' have? Its just another one of your 'well we have to live by $hit rules, so you should too' get a life madam.

I think BEagle (as always) says, the thread has run its course, and needs to end, and therefore I shall refrain from any further postings.
Kind regards
TSM
ps, I hope you all get your free food for guards, OCpl, OSgt oh and of course OO!

Seldomfitforpurpose
29th May 2007, 19:33
I must admit I was going to ask the mods if they had considered a "crayon" option for those of us trying to explain something very simple to the hard of reading but I feel even that would be lost on this one :rolleyes:

4fitter
29th May 2007, 20:08
How bloody sad :(

spanners123
29th May 2007, 20:37
I have been looking at this site for over a year and have never felt the need to post a reply before today, but this subject is getting out of control, so I have registered so I can have my say!! The original subject was if I remember, was that aircrew may have to provide their own rations for flights of 1-4 hrs unless over meal times. Not too unreasonable I think, I and many others manage to take to work enough food to see us thru the working day.
No one is questioning that rations should be provided (FOC) for flights of longer duration.
As for the rubbish of free rations on guard and free uniforms for officers surely this should be covered in a different thread.
I think everyone needs to take a deep breath, get back in their cots and calm down, because at the end of the day we are all supposed to be adults. Remember, its not just RAF personnel that use this forum and its not showing us in the best light. :ugh:

cornish-stormrider
30th May 2007, 07:39
ORAC, whenI joined in 95 ( I know I need to get some time in) I never reagrded it as a joke. It saddens me greatly to see how far it fell since I bailed in 2003

Gaz ED
30th May 2007, 10:32
As a former groundie at LYE, the reason the groundcrew "acquire" the left over rations, is so that MAMS don't get them.

Thats' got to be a good thing! For keeping both traditions going....

The Herc W2 was the best ......Met Office civvies didn't seem to eat their hot food, and kindly gave it all to us!

mojocvh
30th May 2007, 10:50
Wow.....

.........."As for the rubbish of free rations on guard"......

All I can say to that is you demonstratably have no knowledge of duty of care, maintenance of morale and the well-being of your subordinates however temporary your or their positions! :ugh:

parabellum
30th May 2007, 11:10
I'm reminded of that scene from the film 'Airplane' when the refuller reaches up to the DV window with his credit card machine for the captain to pay for the fuel.

Can't be long now before the in-flight refuelling hose has a similar 'swipe machine' attached for aircrew food, presumably the menue will be presented for selection and they only pay for what they order, imagine being charged for a prawn cocktail you never had!

Seldomfitforpurpose
30th May 2007, 11:15
"As a former groundie at LYE, the reason the groundcrew "acquire" the left over rations, is so that MAMS don't get them."

Gaz,

I love that sentiment mate, I always advised ALM's to box up the stuff for the line and put it on the bunk/flightdeck floor which pretty much ensured the thieving pikey gypsy movers didn't pinch stuff the second they got on board :ok:

Pontius Navigator
30th May 2007, 11:30
Parabellum, I don't know if it was intentional but your prawn cocktail is exactly the reason for flight rations without potentially lethal foods being served. Also to ensure that the pilots eat different foods.

I agree though that the real argument was over the 1-4 hour rations, essentially the shorter range aircraft.

gar170
30th May 2007, 14:32
well done you all managed to produce 9 pages of crap before you started on the movers.

spanners123
30th May 2007, 14:33
"All I can say to that is you demonstratably have no knowledge of duty of care, maintenance of morale and the well-being of your subordinates however temporary your or their positions! :ugh:"

To the best of my knowledge, meals for guards was scrapped about 10 years ago where I was based at the time, so surely its time to put that one to bed!

I don't pre-judge you, please don't do it to me!

Winco
30th May 2007, 15:25
Just before the mods put this to bed, may I offer my own final contribution.

This thread originated about the possible loss of aircrew in-flight rations. A decision which, for all the reasons that have been repeatedly pointed out here, will not happen IMHO.

Sadly, a couple of the groundcrew saw it as an opportunity to take a swipe at the aircrew, by continuously asking them to 'justify' why they get rationned for free during flight, despite reasons that were more than forthcoming from a miriad of posters, none moreso than those posted by SFFP. He elequently explains the reasoning behind rationing, and I fail to see why the likes of toddbabe cannot understand what he points out to her in very simple English.

Likewise, I cannot understand why the groundcrew element here feel it is a good thing that aircrew rations cease. As others have explained, whenever you have flown in one of HM aircraft, you will have been fed and watered, without any charge whatsoever. Did you think that was fair? or did you refuse the food offered to you and pull out your own box of goodies?

Nevertheless, I have very little doubt that this withdrawl of rations will happen. As far as the civilian world is concerned, this is a massive flight safety issue, and I cannot believe that even todays RAF will allow aircrew to go flying without the required sustinance to sustain safe flight ops. If they do, then they pose a serious risk.

To TSM, I understand your frustration with the groundcrew on some of their remarks, and their inability to grasp the points you make my dear chap, but I hope that your threat to 'grass them up' was just a bit of aircrew 'bravado' and nothing too serious. We all need to get on together, and you obviously have a valid point when it comes to the 'illegal' removal of rations, but involving the RAFP will open the biggest can of worms the service has ever seen, I would suggest.

Finally, one last word for the groundcrew:
There is another thread on here about the loss of free food for those attending courses etc. and it is without doubt an utter disgrace and should be reversed immediately. However, I doubt it will. If the aircrew were to come onto that forum, shouting with joy and repeatedly arguing for you guys to justify free food when you are on courses, then you would be mighty pi$$ed off. Perhaps then, you will see why the attitude of some of you has clearly had an adverse effect on us mere aircrew??

The Winco

hemmorrhoidHERC
30th May 2007, 22:36
Flight meals? You guys get flight meals and you don't have to pay for them? Are you serious? Holy smokes that's cool.

Here is what we do in the Marine Corps when we are sick of eating MREs.

1. Land at any Air Force Base.
2. Look for the Chow Hall.
3. Enter the Chow Hall with your flight bag.
4. Steal as much chow as you can fit in the bag as well as napkins, and plastic forks. Make sure you have enough for your next 13 hour DASC mission.
5. Go to the head and steal all the toilet paper. (Marines often have to bring their own on a flight since our squadrons won't pay for it.)
6. Run like hell for your airplane!
7. Eat in peace once on track.


Or, talk to the airfield manager order a bunch of food and have him bill you for misc. ramp fees and put it all on a from 44 or charge it on the white card.

SaddamsLoveChild
31st May 2007, 08:01
It would appear that many have missed the point here and turned it into a you and us thread. Surely it is not too much for HM forces to expect that people turn in for work properly fed and watered, if they are to fly over a meal time then it is provisioned for properly and when they return, they go home and get the food that their wages provide for them. All the tosh about duty of care is irrelevant outside of the normal meal time flying. If you are on a long trail or going on ops then of course you should be provisioned.

But mincing around the UK for a couple of hours should not allow rations to be claimed in lieu, put in T bars and used whilst watching cricket/wimbledon in the crewroom. It happens, I have seen it and I have done it but it doesnt mean its right. If the crews are provisioned to fly and dont have time to eat it, or dont want to and the ground crew take it off at the end of the trip then so what. However when 20 odd curries/bombay potatoes come off an E3D and are immediately taken home by crews then that is where the waste is and it is this I believe that the consideration is being directed at.

In summary what appears to be on the table is - Ration for the flight, no more and no less. What is all the fuss about, at least then, possibly the Nimrod IPT would not be having to spend millions re-designing the Nimrod crew seats for the increades airworthiness requirements of overweight rearcrew.

parabellum
31st May 2007, 11:17
At a down-route stop recently an entire crew fell into a pool of Piranha,
apparently they ate half of them and took the rest home.:}

toddbabe
31st May 2007, 18:04
Winco, Sffp, Swinger I am not Groundcrew or a ground based trade despite your best beliefs! You can try and guess what I am and suspect you wouldn't like the truth one bit! but I have had my say regardless.
Because you don't want to hear it doesn't mean it isn't true.
Good luck and keep those blinkers on!

Tourist
31st May 2007, 18:38
You aren't Pang are you Toddpig?

BEagle
31st May 2007, 19:00
Surely Pang isn't still around??

Winco
31st May 2007, 19:05
toddbae,
You indicate in a previous posting that you are NCA, and so I therefore assume that you are in a ground tour somewhere, presumably Kinloss. If you are NCAcan only assume that you either missed, failed or didn't bother to turn up for the AMTC lectures?
The Winco

Tourist
31st May 2007, 19:09
She must be still around, unless you crabs managed to foist her onto the unsuspecting AAC. We would not have fallen for it twice!

Seldomfitforpurpose
31st May 2007, 20:52
I had the great misfortune to be on the water ski club beach in Kokinelli where Pang, our Nav at the time, joined us dressed in a one piece swim costume.......I have never ever seen a spider with that many feckin legs before :eek:

Blondey,

I am not sure I ever referred to you as groundcrew as that would be a bit of an snub at those fine folk who fix the things we break but I am pretty sure I was inferring that you were a bit of a dizzy mare who needed recalling by the factory to have the logic chip retrospectively fitted :rolleyes: