AIPA to represent ALL Qantas Group Pilots [Archive]

ITCZ

23rd May 2007, 11:37

"AIPA to represent ALL Qantas Group Pilots"?

:hmm:

Did you guys READ the decision? Don't give up your day jobs, lads. This decision means NONE of the above.

Previously, JQ pilots could choose to be members of the AFAP or the TWU if they wanted. They could not join and be represented by AIPA before this decision. Now they can. QFLink pilots can now join and be represented by AIPA as well.

This is not a move towards one union. It is the opposite -- More choices, not "one union."

Kaufmann makes the point at 87 of his decision that what he heard "suggests that airline pilots are industrially astute.

"In my view, the mere extension of the scope of the AIPA’s eligibility rule will not lead to pilots from Jetstar, Eastern or other airlines joining it unless they are satisfied that their industrial interests can be better catered for by the AIPA than by the AFAP or some other group."

Kaufmann anticipates that we pilots will throw our lot in with whichever organisation we think will get us the best outcome, at our airline.

Given that VB, Skywest, Alliance, Ozjet and NJS pilots are excluded from representation by AIPA by the new paragraphs IX and X, my conclusion is that this decision prevents "one union" for all aussie pilots. There will be at least two, probably three, with unequal coverage ('market share') within each airline.

More choices does not lead to "one provider." Example - mobile telephone service providers. Ever tried to get all your mates onto the one phone service? Hey guys, everybody get onto Vodaphone pre-pay, free calls between vodaphone mobiles! If all your mates, work colleagues, family, etc bit the bullet you would never pay more than the minimum monthly fee.

But it would never happen. Each provider (telstra, optus, aapt, vodaphone, etc, etc, etc) would have a share of the action. Some bigger, some smaller, but no monopoly. Pepsi still has a share of the cola market. Marmite and Dick Smith spread are still on supermarket shelves and being bought in (small) quantities.

No matter how hard Ian Woods and his team lobby and cajole JQ and QFLink pilots, it will be up to the pilots to choose which union they join, if they join at all.

This decision means that some JQ pilots will be AIPA, some others AFAP, some others just JPC, or nothing at all.

So lets not get too excited.

Parc-Ratstej

23rd May 2007, 12:02

I have not seen the document and am a litle dismayed that AIPA cant represent all pilots.Why is this so!As a vb pilot I would be happy to become one union asap.

Transition Layer

23rd May 2007, 12:07

Remember, "it's all about choice".

ratpoison

23rd May 2007, 12:16

The JQ boys may still back the JPC.
The Jetstar Pilot Crucifiers. Oh dear.

ITCZ

23rd May 2007, 12:46

I have not seen the document and am a litle dismayed that AIPA cant represent all pilots.Why is this so!As a vb pilot I would be happy to become one union asap.

This was never about AIPA getting coverage of all pilots. AIPA only set out to gain coverage of Qantas group pilots that flew "their routes". See Kaufmann at his paragraph 66.

That is what they wanted, and that is what they won.

Coverage of VB/Skywest/NJS pilots on domestic and regional routes, coverage of freighter pilots etc. was not the objective.

If anything, by initiating and continuing with expensive legal action with wall-to-wall silk against a 'competing' pilot union, the AIPA has soured relations with the one other big pilot union in this country, and put the 'one pilot union' concept back several steps.

You guys at VB (AFAP membership 475 out of 560-580 pilots) stand to lose as many as 383 paid up AFAP members in sunnies, eastern and jetstar to AIPA. That is a huge potential loss of subscriptions, and therefore union resources. Will the AFAP be able to offer you the support you enjoy now, however flawed? Can you go and join the 'big guys' at AIPA?

No, you can't. Thats for QF group pilots only.

Angle of Attack

23rd May 2007, 12:58

LOL whatever and you think AIPA could achive coverage of all pilots in 1 case?? haha you are out of your depth! The government has made this a difficult case and AIPA is working step by Step to try and incorporate all pilots into their coverage if they choose, but I can guarantee they cant do it in one swoop, the Workchoices has made it a minefield.

AIPA has a responsiblity to cover groups that are doing their own routes, that is a fact, but I believe AIPA is seeking coverage for all pilots ultimately, but its not a simple thing!

Keg

23rd May 2007, 13:21

If anything, by initiating and continuing with expensive legal action with wall-to-wall silk against a 'competing' pilot union, the AIPA has soured relations with the one other big pilot union in this country, and put the 'one pilot union' concept back several steps.

Strewth, talk about 'slant'.

If this was about giving people the option of what union to join then why was the AFAP so against AIPA being part of that choice? If I understand this correctly the AFAP was part of the case going against AIPA that they be able to represent all group pilots. If AFAP is so crash hot at representing their members then surely those QF group members who didn't like the AIPA representation would vote with their feet and go to AFAP anyway.....and that means that the 'choice' between AFAP and AIPA would have no reason to be opposed by the AFAP.

The reality is that AFAP also lined up some silks and are as much a part of the problem of 'one pilot union' as AIPA- although at least AIPA is working towards an initial starting point that all those who are employed in the same group have the option of being represented by the same association irrespective of what part of the group they work for.

I have no idea if this is just the first step of a wider uber-association that has coverage of GA and so on but I do know that it's a heck of a good start for [i]all[/] QF group pilots. What I find disappointing is that if I decided to go to DJ that I could no longer be a part of AIPA.

As a solution to ITCZ's second last paragraph, perhaps you should be talking to your AFAP reps and telling them to talk to AIPA. I sent an email to an AIPA VP last week about this very issue to find that the door has been effectively shut in our faces for the time being- due to AFAP's opposition to the AIPA submission to be able to represent the group pilots. My email to the VP will be a monthly affair to find out what AIPA is doing to ensure that we are working together- if not part of the one association, at least as members of associations that share information.

So, if you want the pilot groups in Australia to be one then you need to send the message to YOUR representatives that this is what YOU want. I made the mistake of not continuing to engage with a former AIPA President when he told me that AIPA would not be seeking coverage of Impulse and regional crew. I'll not make the same mistake again.

The ball on this is in OUR (pilots collectively) court.

ITCZ

23rd May 2007, 16:18

Keg, you and I normally get along, so maybe this is a case of us both having a bit of 'slant.'

AIPA spun off from AFAP many moons ago to represent QF international pilots, when that was all QF flew, international. AFAP then focussed on representing domestic, regional and GA pilots.

AFAP cops a hiding in the dispute. Maybe the domestic pilots played it wrong, but a hiding it was. AFAP builds itself up again carefully over 15 years, a once-proud organisation that was nearly consigned to oblivion, and finds its feet. Helped immensely by the arrival of VB, it starts putting on more industrial staff, and the increased subs put the organisation back on a sound footing, and it starts kicking goals again.

Over fifty years of history and organisational knowledge about winning and defending conditions for pilots. Not always perfect, true. But don't forget that it was the foundations laid by the Federation under Dick Holt's leadership that made Pilot a professionally recognised and rewarded occupation. A foundation that AIPA inherited.

So for a good thirty years, fifteen of those being very hard times, the AFAP is looking after members in a number of organisations, AIPA looks after QF mainline pilots.

Now along comes Jetstar, poses a threat to the careers and lifestyles of QF pilots, AIPA decides there is a problem.

AIPA looks at QF regionals and Jetstar and says -- something needs to be done about these guys, JQ in particular. Does AIPA go to the Federation and say "hey, you guys already have coverage of 124 of the 360 odd JQ pilots, what can we do together to solve this problem?'

No. No consultation there from what I have heard.

Did AIPA go to the Federation and say "hey, you guys already have a solid 255 members out of 305 Sunstate and Eastern pilots already organised, what can we do together to solve this problem we have?"

No. In fact, a hair-brained scheme to get AIPA 'assistance' in the last EBA negotiation results in Eastern pilots losing thousands of dollars each in back pay, and the shiny new D8-400 goes to Sunnies. Nice job.

Did AIPA respond to a big call for assistance from Jetstar pilots?

No. And boy do the Jetstar guys clearly remember the rebuff they got from AIPA.

So, as far as it looks from where I sit, rather than 'team up' with a re-invigorated AFAP to solve the problem together, AIPA decided that it would compete for coverage.

What did they expect the AFAP to do? Give up coverage of two of their leading workplaces, sever their ties to men and women they had fought for for years, and not least, give up the subscription income of around 400 members that would gross $300k per annum and start trimming back their newly acquired capabilities?

It was AIPA that mounted the challenge and sought the rule change. It was AIPA that brought it into the world of wigs and gowns and $1,000hr advocates.

Keg, you and I appear to be on the same page re the desireability of one big union to effectively represent all pilots. Be assured that I am making my views known at my outfit. But please do not ignore the events leading up to this point. You would be familiar with the story of the prodigal son. Recall the protestations of the faithful son to the father, then you might understand why an AFAP guy is annoyed by the AIPA moves. GA and regionals and the sundry jet operators are AFAP territory, and AFAP was doing hard yards for them before they became a 'problem' for QF pilots.

AIPA might do good for JQ crews, I hope they do. Just don't pretend that AIPA haven't jumped into AFAP territory and that AIPA didn't do damage to a union it should have been aligned with. We won't get any further if you don't acknowledge that.

Capt Kremin

23rd May 2007, 23:11

ITCZ, I can understand your viewpoint but you need to be able to see it from a QF pilots point of view as well.

The AIPA rebuff of Impulse pilots that you bring up, the person responsible and the reasons for it are well known. You may use it to attack AIPA now, but most reasonable people see it for what it was. I was personally appalled when it occurred, most ordinary QF pilots were likewise. You can continue to use it if you like, but it is a low point of history that the current AIPA COM has battled constantly to redress.

Jetstar pilots were offered help. The JPC were using AIPA offices and resources as they were working behind AIPA's back to secure the LCC flying.

The main point is that all QF group pilots have to work together to end the very successful divide and rule strategies of Oldmeadow and Dixon. This is a great first step. The Group Opportunity List would be the icing on the cake but that won't happen unless we all finally learn that fellow pilots are not the enemy.

Jetstar is a fact of life. AIPA cannot stop Jetstar International. They realise that. The Federal court determination about the Sale Act won't stop Jetstar International no matter which way it goes. It will stop Jetstar from being hived off for sale if it goes the way AIPA wants it, but that is all.

Most QF guys would be happy to spend part of their careers flying for Jetstar if the barriers of the MOU were loosened and rates they fly under were more representative of market rates. They realise that mainline rates are a pipedream but working together we can get the Jetstar rates to something approximating what they should be. Talk about abour win/win!

Most QF guys would see this as a great first step in a process that should have been enacted years ago. The AFAP and AIPA should now get together and make AusALPA the umbrella organisation we all desperately need. That is the one union for all pilots.

Keg

24th May 2007, 00:21

ITCZ, thanks for the reasoned response.

As you say I suspect that we're actually advocating the same thing. You're right about the history- particularly the AFAP side of the coin- and that I don't know it all and particularly don't know a great deal about the split in '81 (or was it '83- either way I wasn't yet in my teen years) or the intracisies of '89 although having done a uni assignment on it I at least consider myself to be 'educated' on what happened but possibly not fully aware of the role that AIPA played in all of that.

I guess my frustration is that both AFAP and AIPA probably share the responsibility for a poor relationship over time and that attempts by one group or another to paint AIPA as the big, bad ogre who only care about J*, QFlink et al because QF drivers are now at risk as being an overtly simplistic view of the future.

I'll continue to write to my AIPA reps to tell them to work with AFAP. I hope you do the same with your AFAP guys. At the end of the day I don't care what the name of my association is as long it represents all parts of my 'group'. Longer term I'd like it to represent every driver in Australia. Whether that's AIPA or AusALPA I don't care.

Have a great day.

El Kabong

24th May 2007, 00:35

Have to agree with all and sundry that one voice is required for all. However, as a non Qantas type I just do not trust AIPA to represent my best interests. Without a doubt their mandate is Qantas, Qantas, Qantas, and all others are some way back in the rear view mirror. Am I wrong in this thought? I don't know. I want to subscribe to a unified organisation especially since my lot has just announced the AWA bulldust, but who do you trust.

Perhaps AIPA may somehow be able to convince those of us who feel as I do. To date they have done a lousy job at it!!!!!!!!!!!:bored::bored::bored::bored:

wethereyet

24th May 2007, 00:52

AIPA representing Qantas Qantas Qantas is their biggest mistake and the reason other pilots will backstab these arrogant turkeys.

When this group of pilots and their union want to have ALL pilots in the one union we have half a chance.

Bring on the AIPA and AFAP merger and label non members as scabs. :D

hotnhigh

24th May 2007, 01:42

One small step for man.
Yes it is all about choice. Choice to be represented by who you want. AIPA is now providing an alternative for Qantas group pilots.
We can all continue the bitch session or, alternatively, look at the AIPA plan for the way forward, which encompasses all Qantas group pilots interests.
Unfortunately instant 400 commands are not available, but a plan that recognises all involved, unlike the clusterf*(k we have at the moment with seperate pilot bodies and negotiating parties.

hotnhigh

24th May 2007, 01:45

Hear what you are saying El K. Perhaps this is the beginning of an association that will exist along the longs of Balpa in the UK? Who knows.
Perhaps time for VIPA and AIPA to be talking as well.

regionalguy

24th May 2007, 10:01

Can I start by saying what a great idea, one union representing the needs of the true collective regardless of airline.

However I would like to pose this question.

Regardless of the unions ability to have coverage of membership, is there still not a problem with access to negotiations without having the prior "party" status to the agreement under negotiation ?

I ask this almost rhetorically as I am sure that eventhough a union has membership coverage and indeed members, that does not mandate the said employer (being the other party to the agreement) to allow or even accept the "new" union into the negotiatons.

I should clarify my only source for this information/opinion is the EAA pilots fiasco and the refusal of management to allow the union at the table.

wayne_king

24th May 2007, 11:32

ITCZ,
you're comments relating to why Eastern pilots didn't get backpay or 400's shows your considerable lack of knowledge on this subject.

The "hair brain" scheme was bourne out of frustration with a union (AFAP) that, in the opinion of many, has underperformed for years.

Ironically the industrial staff at the AFAP always say "the Federation is the pilots", yet the industrial staff refuses to take direction from the pilots paying their wages.

The EBA was voted down for the same reassons the VB one was: because it was a bad deal.

The 400 wasn't even on the AOC till 2007, so it wasn't coming anytime soon around 2005 when the EBA was voted on.

All this decision is about is choice. For too long the Federation have enjoyed a monopoly, and with the protection of that monopoly they have treated their membership with contempt. Eventually enough EAA guys decided to seek an alternative.

If the AFAP had spent half the time, money and effort helping Eastern pilots as they have fighting this case no-one would have wanted to leave the AFAP in the first place, because they would have been effectively representing their members.

It's funny that the AFAP President has already written they expected to lose this case. If that was so, why spend all the members' money fighting it? Surely they should have been concentrating on providing a better service than AIPA. If they did this they might retain their membership.

You don't see Mcdonalds suing Hungry Jacks for making hamburgers, they just try and make a better burger. In the end you get the choice of where to eat.:rolleyes:

noip

25th May 2007, 07:12

El Kabong,

I understand your caution, however I've never found anything other than dedication amongst the AIPA committee people .. even if I disagreed with them or found them outright dunces.

The point?

My observation is that AIPA does not have an agenda to rule the world. They just want to do the right thing.

Yeah, pillory me for being innocent, however I have known some of the people in AIPA for ... ooh ... mayday ... 30 years? ... They are decent people.

Take it for what you will ....

N

ITCZ

25th May 2007, 08:34

ITCZ,
you're comments relating to why Eastern pilots didn't get backpay or 400's shows your considerable lack of knowledge on this subject.

WK, my comments about that were glib, and unnecessarily provocative. Apologies for that. You are also right that the -400 decision was not 'proximate' with the EBA, to borrow a lawyer's term. But I won't revise my opinion that the AIPA involvement, the manner in which it was done, was shortsighted, and an error. I thought so back then it and I am not persuaded by hindsight to change my mind now.

Don Diego

6th Jun 2007, 04:02

Hey wayne king your version of events at Eastern is simply wrong,you should go back and have the story read to you again but this time get your helper to read fact not fiction.Your analogy further proves you clearly know little about the subjects you are commenting on.:=:=:=

slice

6th Jun 2007, 04:24

So Don, what is the correct version of events? I would be interested to know as it seems AIPA might be having an effect (indirectly at least) on what the future holds for the Qlink group.

Capt Kremin

6th Jun 2007, 07:30

On a side note, both Qantas and the AFAP have appealed the AIRC ruling.

Shaft135

6th Jun 2007, 13:17

hay bondslipper, are you talking Income Protection, or Loss of Licence cover.
If you are talking income protection I think you will find that the premium versus the amount of cover available is way out of proportion (that is way to dear)
your link for the website does not take you anywhere except to an error page.

If you are talking loss of licence then the Qantas loss of licence is not available to additional pilots, that is pilots outside of mainline/international.
:{:{

Al E. Vator

7th Jun 2007, 01:47

Chaps....we need and can re-invent ourselves NOW.

Yes, it's a fact that the Scabs in '89 started the rot, yes it's true that VB and then J* pilots undermined wages in a big way and yes it's true QF pilots were incredibly arrogant turning away the J* group etc (and still maybe are by fighting other bodies to get the right to represent certain pilots).

It's all true but it's old news. Bickering about it is futile, energy-sapping and stupid. Yes learn from it but GO FORWARD.

Now is the time to strike.

We need a corporate rebranding and restructuring. We need the AAPP: Australian Association of Professional Pilots. Or some similar name.

This parent body would combine the assest and members of the existing pilot representative bodies in this country. It would have an International, Domestic, Regional and GA division (initially just transfer AIPA, AFAP, J*PG over lock stock and barrel). But it would have a President/CEO, VP, Secretary, Treasurer etc all elected by the members and bound by the constitution to protect the rights of all Australian Pofessional Pilots.

Sure, let those internal bodies bicker amongst themselves about who has the biggest willy, who is a better pilot etc but let that be done in-house, away from the gleeful watch of the vulturous Olmeadows of this world. At least then we present a united face, represented by ONE Association working for the betterment of all pilots.

This way you have the ability for many smart heads to bang together to determine smart, 21st-Century ways of applying industrial pressure on recalcitrant employers and bypassing and outsmarting current workplace legislation.

And you do this as a cohesive and (at least outwardly) united body and don't publically waste energy fighting your fellow professional aviator about who did what to whom etc.

NOW is the first opportunity in 20 years we have had to do this.

Go for it.

bob hatfield

7th Jun 2007, 02:29

Divided We Fall

Dedicated to All Qantas, Jetstar, Virgin Blue, and Aspiring Australian Pilots.

Up north I gave my pound of flesh and stayed alive
But now I’m told it’s a glorified Bus I drive
So how come you need a thousand or two for a ticket
Surely I deserve a fair wicket!

Well I’ve always done my very best
With the heart of a kangaroo beating in my chest
I am proud to wear their tin upon my breast
But my loyalty they are beginning to test!

Brush your teeth and put your tie on straight
Done the hat and don’t be late
Make sure you polish your shoes
Or points with the auditor you’ll lose

Say G’day and be polite
“May I have the decent tonight?”
Yes they say being a second officer
Is a little like being a kind of a tosser

I can take the pole in my hand
But you can guarantee… I’ll never land
“Get out of the seat, you’ve had your fun”
“You’ll get your turn one day son!”

But if you want a promotion, go to Jetstar
Guess it beats sitting in the back by far
If you go you’re in for a treat
The shaftings start when you pay for your seat

You’ll be a Captain in just three years
But you wont be able to afford a round of beers
Now look out you’ve been gazumped!
AWA’s and your quick commands were bumped

You see, all the pilots from afar
Wouldn’t come fly for Jetstar
The FO slots at JQ
Only paid enough to draw but a few

A____ J_____... What a dunce
But Jetstar boys think we’re the $#%@’s
Why do pilots cut each others throat
We’re all going to sink in the same boat

AWA’s for new hires at Qantas so they say
Might as well go back to GA
They asked us for another pay freeze
Cos Qantas was headed for ruff seas

The price of oil was so high
There was no way they could tell a lie
So make sure the fuel order isn’t fat
And treat all your staff like a piece of crap

Management told us we’d been bad boys
The 787 wouldn’t be our new toys
We’re “too inefficient” so they said
And dreams of promotion were put to bed

Just when I thought things couldn’t be grimmer
The Chief Pilot invited us all for dinner
“Trust him!”… What were they thinking
And politely I declined without even blinking

AH! But what’s all this?
Did I just see G___ and M__g Kiss?
Record Profits and APA offers
Management….. Fill your coffers

The APA bid sat on a wall
The APA bid did take a great fall
And all of G____’s forces and all G____’s men
Couldn’t put the deal back together again

The shareholders wanted more loot
And M_______ J_______ got the boot!
So much for the ruff seas… What a farce!
Is that sun I see shining from G____’s #%#@

G_____’s a hero or so the papers say
That fella came out on top at the end of the day
But with all the cost cutting moral is low
And now its time to reap the seed you sow

Customers say they think we’re the worst
But never mind cos Pete says we’re first
The bottom line was all they were thinking
And now all our ratings have gone sinking

So G_____ be nibble G_____ be quick
You’re making our Red Kangaroo Sick
Our customers are telling us they want service
And your decisions are making me nervous

Its time to realise your staff are Qantas
So quit telling us that you don’t want us
From Aerolingus came the leprecorn
And Jetstar crew were used as a pawn

Jetstar crew come aboard and don’t despair
Together we can make sure you’re paid fair
I extend the olive branch to thee
United solidarity is the key

So next time you see A___ coming up from behind
Let him know you’re really not that kind
“Put that back in your shorts thanks!”
“And how about some money for our ranks?”

Come on Shorthaul its time to get up
EBA8…. vote “Nup!”
They tried to make you sign a dud
Bring it down with a resounding thud

Long hauls turn is coming soon
And we should sing a similar tune
“I’ve got your back mate!”
So stand up for all our sake

Senior blokes don’t forget to stick up for us
Now that you’re secure on the retirement bus
Our fore fathers ensured your future when you made a start
And you have reaped the rewards now you’re an old fart

I am proud of our brothers at Virgin Blue
Sticking their EBA offer down the loo
The pilot shortage is bound to strike
So pass this around if you like

For fear of punishment I wont publish my name
But please do consider our plight all the same
Please don’t say “I’m right Jack”
You never know when you’ll get the sack

Now my tirade is all finished and done
So have a think, but don’t lose the fun
Don’t let the bad blood run too deep
For our Careers we must fight together to keep

Avid Aviator

7th Jun 2007, 09:57

Many Qantas Group pilots have heard that the AIPA was awarded constitutional coverage of all Australian based Qantas Group pilots by Senior Deputy President (SDP) Kaufman of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission (AIRC) in Melbourne on May 23rd 2007.
They may not yet be aware that yesterday, both the AFAP and Qantas filed an Appeal to the AIRC Full Bench seeking to have SDP Kaufman’s decision overturned.
Nonetheless AIPA is entitled to rely on the decision of Senior Deputy President Kaufman and given that supporting legal opinion from now Justice Stephen Rothman AM also supports AIPA’s ability to enrol QantasLink & Jetstar members, AIPA believes that the there is little chance that Kaufman’s decision will be overturned.
To assist Qantas Jetstar and QantasLink pilots better understand the reasoning behind:
Kaufman’s coverage decision,
How AIPA is reorganising to accommodate Qantas Jetstar and Qantaslink Members, and
What AIPA’s Professional Standards Campaign is expected to mean for all Qantas Group Pilots.
I hereby extend to all Qantas Group subsidiary pilots an invitation to attend an Information Session at the AIPA office at Suite 601, Level 6, 243-249 Coward Street, Mascot at 11:00am on Friday 22 June, 2007. Speaking at the meeting will be myself and Peter Sommerville (AIPA’s General Manager)
After a short presentation covering the above, Peter and I and members of the AIPA Committee of Management will be happy to take questions from all present on any AIPA related issues, including but not limited to:
AIPA's proposed Rules change,
Common conditions for all Qantas Group Pilots,
More opportunities for career progression, and
An economic stake for pilots in the industry.
To assist with the provision of a light lunch after the meeting, those planning to attend are requested to notify Ms Kim Elliott at AIPA office on 02 8273-7777 or email her at: [email protected]
Please rest assured that the above event is not a “political rally” and I welcome the participation and presence of all AFAP and Qantas Company Council pilots. At the heart of my endeavours is my genuine desire to see AIPA do what it can to help unify Australian flight crew representation ASAP.

Posted by Ian Woods on another forum, 7th June 2007.

Lawrie Cox

8th Jun 2007, 05:46

Just before everyone gets to excited the President of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission granted a stay application against the decision today in Melbourne. He based it upon the grounds made out and the likely success of an appeal. This means that the current coverage arrangements remain in place until the full appeal is dealt with (i.e. AIPA has no current coverage of Jetstar, Eastern or Sunstate pilots)
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations AFAP

Keg

8th Jun 2007, 06:03

That doesn't stop AIPA holding a meeting such as the one above.

Since you're engaging on this forum Lawrie, care to elaborate on why AFAP is appealing the decision?

Toluene Diisocyanate

8th Jun 2007, 07:01

It seems an email doing the rounds contradicts what Lawrie Cox stated. Here is an excerpt:

AIPA AIRC Rule Decision Held Over

An application by Qantas and AFAP for an immediate stay of the decision of SDP Kaufman enlarging AIPA coverage was refused by the President of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission in Melbourne today.

Instead, the AIRC said that SDP Kaufman should proceed to give his consent to the AIPA Rule change.

The AIRC said that when SDP Kaufman had done so, a stay would be ordered to operate seven days from that decision unless AIPA persuaded him to the contrary.

AIPA’s submission was that the Qantas and AFAP application for a stay was premature as in fact no formal decision had been made by SDP Kaufman at the time their application was lodged.

A stay is usual when an Appeal has been lodged. It operates until the hearing of the Appeal. AIPA will be seeking an expeditious hearing.

Having reviewed SDP Kaufman’s decision, I am personally comforted by the full bench’s determination and remain confident that ultimately common sense will prevail.

So who is correct?

Intenleftblank

9th Jun 2007, 02:56

How the :mad: can we expect any unification with this sh t going on! This shows up the very sorry state we are all in. :ugh:

CaptCloudbuster

9th Jun 2007, 03:15

Mr Cox

Stop thinking about your own job and consider the Pilots instead. What are you afraid of? The JPC/AFAP should be prepared to stand by their record. What have you achieved for your members to date?

A sub standard EBA built on fear and now AWA's for new hires over your members!

Remember - "it's all about choice".

ITCZ

9th Jun 2007, 05:19

Cloudbuster, I have two problems with your 'challenge' above

1) "its all about choice" -- just goes to show how much the consumer mindset has taken hold of contemporary thinking. Choice is good in some areas, and counterproductive in others. If you are talking about driving down prices and increasing the variety of goods and services in a marketplace, yes, choice is good if you are a consumer.

However, choice is very bad for you as a the provider of a narrow set of skills that took a huge investment in time and effort. That is why companies, developers etc are dependent on devices such as patents, intellectual property rights, etc.

Example: Test the proposition that "Choice is good". Ok. Lets increase choice for the employer - allow Direct Entry pilots to compete on an equal footing with incumbent first officers seeking an upgrade. How do you think that would run for the FO's in your organisation, would they embrace that concept? Is choice in all forms still good?

If this ruling survives the appeal (and an appeal has been granted, which means at least one judge can see that it has merit), then no one union or association will have total support. The 'market share' to put it in your terms, might be 50/50, 75/25, or even 80/20, but it will never be 100/0.

All that 'choice' does for pilots in an industrial sense, is to ensure that there will never be one effective voice for pilots.

2) You put the emphasis on the AFAP to show what they have done for their members. Unfortunately that only shows that you miss the entire concept of how a union achieves 'a win.'

The membership. A united membership that is willing to take a risk, in order to win better conditions. A membership that understands that "power is never ceded without a fight."

The union staff is selected for their knowledge and expertise, but it is the membership that sets the direction and generates the 'push.'

Take a look at one of the more successful unions in this country, the CFMEU. These construction workers earn salaries that rival B737 captains in this country. The media like to focus their attention on their leader, Big Kev (not the fat spruiker from QLD, the union man from WA). But as Big Kev put it himself, the only reason the CFMEU is the attitude of their members.

"Our people earn that sort of money because they understand the collective".

Folk like Cloudbuster can sit back and defend their right to choice and hang on to the cult of individuality if they like. However, so long as you guys think like consumers of a service, we will be hamstrung, and Cloudbuster will be taking a slice of an ever diminishing pie.

The problem here is not really which union represents the QF group pilots. It might be a new flag, but it is flying above a group of people that has not changed, and I suspect wont change much, especially if they continue in the mistaken belief that AIPA can do much more for them than AFAP or any other organisation.

Same army, new uniform.

Takes a lot more than that to win a battle.

Don Diego

11th Jun 2007, 03:34

Slice the real story is rather long and thus I am not going to every little event,rather I shall give just an overview for now.In 2004 AIPA embarked on a membership drive at Eastern and a Trojan horse otherwise known as the EPG was formed and one of their first tasks was to discredit the AFAP.The truth of course was not to get in the way.The commandant over in tha AIPA bunker was really running the show for the EPG,they were willing foot soldiers.So you see Slice poor old wayne king and his ilk can continue to hallucinate and be all bitter and twisted as that is the way they want to be.The garbage about choice is right out of the EPG manual and although AIPA themselves do not want their existing members to have a choice(as that would weaken their position),but it is a different thing for the regionals,they must have a choice.Just another case of do as I say not as I do,the audacity of them is astonishing.The CoM needs to be sacked and replaced with a team that at least knows which way is up and is fair dinkum about unity.:D:D:D

What The

11th Jun 2007, 03:46

There's one village missing an idiot.

Lawrie Cox

11th Jun 2007, 06:18

Keg
To answer very bluntly the Federation will protect its area of coverage from bodies seeking to move in (in this case AIPA) that should come as no surprise to anybody with a working knowledge of unions.
We are appealing a decision full of inaccuracies and the ultimate conclusion which is founded on an error in the way the Senior Deputy President read the section of the act. Time will tell if we are right at the appeal but it was to say the least misleading to say that the stay was not immediate for the purpose of its operation. As someone who sat through Fridays proceedings Justice Giudice simply wanted to avoid a further dealy by allowing the final step of the original decision to be acted upon then he stayed the whole lot so that the Full Bench can deal with it all and not have someone playing games about the process causing delays.
I have no problem with anyone attending a meeting a AIPA what i am getting "jack of" is the plain rubbish been spoken about futre unity when the whole exercise is only about protecting QF mainline backsides and using others as their pawns.
The Federation has put it to AIPA to give us a full written proposal that can be considered at our Executive in mid June for one pilot body in Aus. Guess what they can't and will not do it because it exposes the fraud that is being played out. They do not want GA pilots, or helicopters or small airlines in the camp and god forbid you give them equal standing with the QF skygods in voting strength.
The pilot unions will never get together whilst you exclude professional pilots who do not meet the percieved "gods gift to avaition" standards.
If your fair dinkum about the future of pilot unions convince AIPA to embrace all professional pilots and work with us on a structure to achieve rather fight in the courts.
Cloudburst
I do not care what you think mate but this is not about me it is about you and your fellow peers and their futures. Hopefully you might wake up before its too late.
As a side note or for you an inconvienent truth over 70% of the Jetstar pilots voted their agreement up and the wide body amendment we are and have continued attempts to work with the group not stand back and call them parasites and actively try to discredit them as AIPA and its leaders have done since the outset.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots

theheadmaster

11th Jun 2007, 06:57

Lawrie, I could not quite work out from your post if the Jetstar wide body deal is on the plus or the minus side of the ledger when you are telling us about the AFAP working for the Jetstar pilot group.

speeeedy

11th Jun 2007, 07:35

QF skygods
Lawrie,

It demonstartes breathtaking stupidity that you label all QF pilots with the above insult and then in the same post talk about your desire to work with AIPA for a single body representing all pilots.

I'm not 100% happy with everything AIPA is doing, but after that effort, I thank god we are not with the AFAP.

hotnhigh

11th Jun 2007, 07:51

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

QFinsider

11th Jun 2007, 07:53

Speedy you beat me to the draw.

In another post I alluded to the fact there are many if not most who earned their employment at Q. Skygods not necessarily but lots of us worked hard and made it, something that we can feel proud of. To label Q pilots as Skygods shows how successful the company has been at alientating groups from each other.

The best thing going for us is that AIPA are trying something, not necessarily always successfully, but nonetheless having a go.

Having observed our union in action I am glad I am not represented by AFAP, who did nothing to help my colleagues and I as entitlements disappeared when our GA employer fell apart!

Don Diego

11th Jun 2007, 08:51

Hey What The,they are the facts of the whole sorry story if you have not figured that out by now then it is obvious who the idiot is.Come inside matey you have had to much of that tropical sun.DD.

What The

11th Jun 2007, 08:56

Diego,

With all due respect, you were not there and have no idea what you are talking about.

You only know what you were told. Much like the lies being told by Lawrie to support his poor case, and the lies being told by the Ian Woods ARG led AIPA to support theirs.

As someone used to say, "the truth is out there".

PW1830

11th Jun 2007, 09:22

If Mr Cox's opinion of pilots who have worked hard for, and achieved, decent working conditions and salary is the derogatory "Skygods" as used by some on this forum, he obviously believes that all his members are entitled to is a fraction of QF salary, and rosters dictated by some 16yr old clerk wannabe.

Look forward to a great career and family life after the after the novelty of the shiny new aeroplane wears off.

Don Diego

11th Jun 2007, 09:43

What the are you are clairvoyant in your spare time???

Lawrie Cox

11th Jun 2007, 10:10

I did not clarify well what i meant in my post i do not believe all QF mainline as 'skygods' but i am heartly b*****y sick of hearing that QF and AIPA are the biggest, the best and the only saviour of our industry. I am also angry at trying our hardest to get improvements to see it undermined on a regular basis. If you do not like hearing it then do something about it instead of wimping around here on an anonymous electronic graffiti site.
I have never been shy to say that we (the Federation) are not perfect the best way forward is for a few others to look in the mirror as well. Maybe a few of you will actually look at what AIPA is doing instead of believing the PR spin coming out of Coward Street.
Lawrie Cox

wayne_king

11th Jun 2007, 12:41

Mr Cox's outburst is an example of the unprofessional attitude that has caused people to look for an alternative to the Federation. His temper is well known.

Don Diego's trojan story is the same rubbish line that Qantas wheeled out in the Commission.
Why is it so hard for you, Don, to understand that not everyone is content to sit on their hands suffering substandard service that they pay 1% of their salary for.

AIPA did NOT approach Eastern pilots. It was the other way around, and since you weren't there you can live in your angry little fantasy land as long as you wish. As a matter of fact you're so far in denial you should put your hand up for Flights Ops Manager at Eastern, you seem to have all the pre-requisites.... :{

What The

11th Jun 2007, 12:58

Diego,

I can see as clear as day that you have no idea what you are talking about, if that is what you mean?

Whilst a most unfortunate handle, Wayne King does indeed speak the truth. If you knew him, you would know that he has no need to do otherwise.

Others on this site are not so unburdened.
;)

Don Diego

12th Jun 2007, 12:32

Hey w_k the earth really is flat and all this time you and your goons have been right,silly us,oh well I guess we can now just fall over the edge and it will be just you and the odd cockroach left.Enjoy.:mad::mad::mad:

Keg

12th Jun 2007, 13:19

Lawrie,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Next time leave out the references to 'skygods'. It offends me personally both in reference to my flying ability (because a skygod I ain't) as well as to my religious beliefs which those who have seen my posts on Qrewroom would know that I take pretty seriously.

To answer very bluntly the Federation will protect its area of coverage from bodies seeking to move in (in this case AIPA) that should come as no surprise to anybody with a working knowledge of unions.

I guess this is a philosophical difference. I see that all people in the one company doing the same job should be able to be covered (if they choose) by the most appropriate association. If this is the TWU, AFAP or AIPA then I don't really give a stuff but to 'isolate' parts of the group from membership due to a belief that you 'own' strikes me more as 'protectionist' than anything else. It doesn't look like 'service', it looks like covering your own backside.

I have no problem with anyone attending a meeting a AIPA what i am getting "jack of" is the plain rubbish been spoken about futre unity when the whole exercise is only about protecting QF mainline backsides and using others as their pawns.

I disagree- as my comments above allude to.

The Federation has put it to AIPA to give us a full written proposal that can be considered at our Executive in mid June for one pilot body in Aus. Guess what they can't and will not do it because it exposes the fraud that is being played out.

Have you submitted your full written proposal to AIPA (or anyone really) for the one pilot body in Australia? I've never read it. I've read many calls for unity amongst the representative bodies on this forum (I authored a few of them in fact) and yet the first time I recall hearing from you is when AIPA make a move to open the doors to other crew employed in the QF group.

They do not want GA pilots, or helicopters or small airlines in the camp and god forbid you give them equal standing with the QF skygods in voting strength.

I'm not sure what we're voting on here but I don't think that I want a GA driver voting on whether or not EBA 8 gets up in QF. I'm not sure that I want Captain Bloggs from Joe's Air Charter (apology to Joe if the company actually exists) to be speaking on behalf of QF group pilots just because he got the 3200 GA drivers to vote for him whilst the 3199 QF group pilots didn't. I'm not sure the DJ crew would want Captain Bloggs from QF speaking for them in their EBA negotiations either....or for the GA drivers.

The pilot unions will never get together whilst you exclude professional pilots who do not meet the percieved "gods gift to avaition" standards.

Can we leave the hyperbole behind? It's tiresome, it's old and it's generally the refuge of those with massive chips on their shoulders. Many pilot's in the US are part of their own group's association which goes to make up USALPA (or whatever they're calling it this week). What's the problem with this model? The answer is nothing.

If your fair dinkum about the future of pilot unions convince AIPA to embrace all professional pilots and work with us on a structure to achieve rather fight in the courts.

Rather than fight in the courts? Why don't you drop the case Lawrie and work with AIPA. I can't see AIPA being prepared to 'work together' when you're the one trying to block them from being able to cover pilots all employed by the same group.

As a side note or for you an inconvienent truth over 70% of the Jetstar pilots voted their agreement up and the wide body amendment....[quote]

Geez Lawrie, a big percentage of people in Germany in the '30s voted for the Nazi party and Hitler to become the Chancellor, that doesn't make it a wise decision.

[quote]... we are and have continued attempts to work with the group not stand back and call them parasites and actively try to discredit them as AIPA and its leaders have done since the outset.

Funny, I recall a number of times that AIPA and QF drivers asked and even begged the JPC, J* pilots and everyone else involved in the A320 introduction and the subsequent widebody variation to get their heads together with AIPA to work together on these deals. Where was your proposed unity then- or were you so delighted about being able to 'stick it' to those in QF that all you could think of was the increased subs.

I'm quite happy to see that AIPA is working towards ensuring that all members of the QF group are able to avail themselves of the one representative body if they so desire. I've got no problems with AFAP running a case to be able to cover QF drivers (if we so chose). Based on your comments here though and your track record over the last few years I can't see too many QF drivers being particularly anxious to make the leap though- even given our own internal issues with AIPA.

Regards,
Keg

Kransky

12th Jun 2007, 14:25

Keg, never write a letter when you are angry. That was a self-important dig at the only person that has clearly identified himself amongst a pack of w@nkers hiding behind Pprune handles, capping off a very disheartening Pprune thread about -- unity :yuk:

I didn't say he was right, but he is more of a man than you or anyone else here, godless or not.

Skygods, sheesh. Remember that joke....

ACFT "Schipol Ground, request local time please"

GND "Aircraft calling ground, which airline are you sir?"

ACFT "BA"

GND "Local time is a quarter past five."

.. a pause ..

ACFT "Ground, just curious, why did you request our airline before reply?"

GND "Sir, you are BA, so local time is a quarter past five. If you were United, the time is quarter after five. If you were Qantas, the big hand is on the five, and the little hand is on the three."

The one thing that has eluded all of you QF boys and girls and your wannabees in QFLink, is -- how did you get it into your heads that JQ wants you, your airline and your AIPA?

Because they DON'T.

You guys have to get your heads around the fact that not everybody thinks you are as good as you do, false modesty declared by Keg or not.

It wouldn't be worth mentioning, except for the fact that due to your delusional group think, your AIPA is jumping in and doing damage, right now, with uncertain prospects of doing any effective good for the wider industry, ever.

wayne_king

12th Jun 2007, 14:35

Diego,

Your post is really quite amusing. I think you might have written it the wrong way about. The AFAP line is the earth is flat.... "don't dare leave us cause you'll fall off the edge". The problem is we want to leave, and the even though we're pretty sure the earth isn't flat, it's bad enough with the AFAP that we'll leave and take the chance anyway. After all, years of getting nowhere is a hard thing to do worse than!

Kransky, I assume that's not your real name, and therefore welcome to the ranks of the "lesser men". It's funny that anyone who doesn't blindy agree with the "AFAP is best" mentality, is a wannabe, or a skygod, or a ******. You guys really are a sad relic of the past, where all that's left for you to do is to spit venom, because a reasonable, articulate arguement is beyond you....Don't get too much sand in your eyes :zzz:

Keg

12th Jun 2007, 16:55

Angry Kransky? Really? You don't know me very well. If you've read anger into my comments then you'll need to go back and read again. This time read something along the lines of disappointment with a touch of realistic amusement at Lawrie proving to me what many have said about the AFAP.

I don't know the AFAP from a brick having had zero involvement with them. My only interaction has been as an interested observer in what they've done so far- and this is most often what I read about them by their own hand. My initial impression of Lawrie isn't pretty but I'm pretty confident that he won't lose sleep over what some QF driver (I won't use his term :rolleyes: ) thinks of him. I am puzzled that what was a genuine question from me (and I like to think that my history on PPRUNE shows me to be a pretty straight shooter) gets responded to with such invective. Ask the question and Lawrie responds by slagging 2500 pilots in the biggest employer of jet drivers in the country. Shall we digress a little and discuss the fact that comments both here and on other forums show that the DJ guys and gals seem to be significantly under-whelmed with AFAP in recent times?

As for posting under PPRUNE handles, I'm not sure what that has to do with 'being a man' on here or anywhere else. I couldn't have cared if Lawrie posted as Lawrie or Guido the slysdexic taxi driver, the question I posed would have been the same. I would expect his type of response from 101 other people on this forum that take any opportunity to hook into QF drivers (why I'm not sure but there is a thesis in there for someone!) but for the industrial rep of the AFAP to do so is a sad indication of where he and AFAP appear to be. Before you try and accuse me of bias I'll acknowledge that occasionally I get concerned about stuff that comes out of QF and AIPA from time to time also. QF used to get flight crew reports or other feedback from me but there are reasons why they don't anymore and AIPA still get emails or phone calls. Moving on though, if we're about to start measuring the lengths of our proverbials based on whether we've posted under our real names or not then I can give you a list of QF drivers (including management types up to and including the Chief Pilot) as well as drivers for other airlines and even non-aligned personnel on PPRUNE who can tell you quite readily who I am. They may not tell you because frankly you come across as a bit of a pill, but they'll vouch that I stand behind what I say.

JQ may not want to join AIPA and I'm not fussed if they choose to or not. I'd like them to but acknowledge that they won't if AIPA isn't going to deliver the service though. Don't you think that they should be given that choice though?

It wouldn't be worth mentioning, except for the fact that due to your delusional group think, your AIPA is jumping in and doing damage, right now, with uncertain prospects of doing any effective good for the wider industry, ever.

I'm sure that if AIPA decided to push for 'industry wide' coverage (as Lawrie appears to want them to do) that the howls of protest from the likes of yourself and Lawrie about 'not our place' or 'thinking that the QF drivers have all the answers' would be quite loud.

Let me say again for the record (as I've said to AIPA reps) that we need to be working together and that means ultimately all pilots as part of the same pilot group. If the first step to that is drawn along company lines than fine, but it has to start somewhere. I've seen nothing from AFAP on this issue in my last 12 years employed at QF. :ugh:

Shot Nancy

12th Jun 2007, 17:29

It offends me personally both in reference to my flying ability (because a skygod I ain't) as well as to my religious beliefs which those who have seen my posts on Qrewroom would know that I take pretty seriously.
If you are offended then exercise your right not to visit this board.
How arrogant of you to impose your religious view upon others.
Grow up.

Toluene Diisocyanate

12th Jun 2007, 19:46

Does anybody else find it interesting that Jetstar pilots seems to be the only ones happy with the AFAP? Take a look on REX and Virgin threads. They are all saying the same things that the Easterns blokes were saying a couple of years ago: AFAP has dropped the ball and give the impression of being in the company pocket. Not working hard enough for their employers (us).
NJS looking at TWU. Why?

Ignore the warning signs at your own peril AFAP.

Its all about choice.
WayneKing's writings would be the closest to resembling the majority of Easterns pilots feelings at the mo.

Tootle pip!

TDI

Keg

12th Jun 2007, 22:47

Hey Shot, I've always been a fan of being 'up front'. I don't visit Jet Blast because most of it is inane crap that I can't be bothered reading and just isn't interesting (to me). However if someone offends me (and Lawrie's comments were directed at me in terms of answering a question that I put forward) then surely I have the right to say that I was offended. If I offended you by referring to you in some particular way that you found offensive then I'm sure that you'd have no hesitation in letting me know.

Of course though, then we wouldn't be able to have the double standard that those like you perpetuate. It's ironic that my comments have obviously offended your sensibilities (in terms of you believing that I'm 'imposing' my religious views) and yet you have no problems with letting me know that you feel this is inappropriate. So it's OK for you to let me know that you don't like what I said (based up me pushing an agenda from your perspective) but it's not OK for me to do likewise to Lawrie. Who was the arrogant one? :rolleyes:

I find the term 'skygod' offensive on more than one level and find that it normally indicates someone with a chip on their shoulder about the role that QF drivers play in the industry. Therefore if someone wants to engage in a proper discussion with me with a hope of influencing my thoughts, then they're better off leaving the term out.

max1

12th Jun 2007, 23:12

Kransky
If the big hand is on the five and the little hand on the three, what time is it?
Now tell me you did it on purpose to check if anyone is paying attention.

Capt_SNAFU

12th Jun 2007, 23:16

Kransky's Joke:
GND "Sir, you are BA, so local time is a quarter past five. If you were United, the time is quarter after five. If you were Qantas, the big hand is on the five, and the little hand is on the three."
Am I missing the punch line. I get the big hand, little hand your simple thing. Us QF drivers are simple yes, but correct me if I'm wrong if the big hand was on the five and the little hand was on the three wouldn't the time be THREE THIRTY:confused: Or is Kransky just that :mad: silly that he can't work out from memory what 5:15 would look like on an analog watch? LITTLE HAND ON FIVE AND BIG HAND ON THREE YOU GOOSE!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

As to the point of this thread, why shouldn't the JQ drivers be given the choice of who represents them. If this is about doing loosing subscriptions then that is :mad: because if you were doing the best job for them they wouldn't be inclined to shift would they. What is wrong with choice?

max1

12th Jun 2007, 23:35

Snafu it would actually be twenty five past three. Lucky you've got controllers reading this site. Time check.

Keg

12th Jun 2007, 23:47

Good thing you controllers can tell the time Max because a few of you can't spell to save yourselves. I recently asked one to spell whiteboard and it came back as whitboard. Hope his controlling is better than his spelling. :E

Be very afraid YPJT.....he's coming to an SMC near you soon! :} :ok: :}

Awol57

13th Jun 2007, 00:51

Lucky the time is digital in the tower then eh :cool:

Don Diego

13th Jun 2007, 23:45

wayne_king you have yet again missed the point,you need some assistance in dealing with reality.

Lawrie Cox

14th Jun 2007, 06:53

For the sake of completeness (not an opinion) here is the direct words from the transcript by Justice Giudice last week found at paras 327-328 Page 40:
"These are appeals against a decision given by Kaufman SDP on 23 May 2007 in relation to an application by the Australian and International Pilots Association to amend its eligibility rule. I have concluded on the basis of the submissions today that there is a sufficiently arguable case that leave would be granted to appeal and that the appeal would succeed.
The issue described generally as an irreconcilable conflict of interest between the pilot groups referred to in much of the evidence looms large in the decision. It is arguable the decision is erroneous in relation to the manner in which the evidence and submissions on that question were dealt with. The issue also has significance from the perspective of the employers involved and the public because of the possibility of demarcation disputes which may not have been properly taken into account. There may be other grounds upon which it might be concluded that there is a sufficiently arguable case that leave would be granted and that the appeal would succeed, but it is not necessary that I go beyond the one I have identified."
Please note my emphasis in the first para.
Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
PS - Keg it is not my case it is an APIA application and that has been the problem from the start. How do you sit down with someone who has proceedings on foot. We thought long and hard about it including the night we sat down with AIPA leaders a couple of days before the hearing started but were told the COM would not support an adjournment to enable those talks to continue.

Keg

14th Jun 2007, 10:14

Fair enough Lawrie. Perhaps those talks can continue now.

In the mean time, this was posted on Qrewroom. I reproduce it here without further comment.

Dear Colleague,

Re: Application for Membership in AIPA

The coverage of AIPA has been extended by order of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission made on 13 June 2007 to include airline pilots employed by Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate.

AIPA will receive and welcome applications for membership from all pilots in these categories.

Those who have already signed applications are asked to do so again in order to remove any argument by Qantas/AFAP that those applications were invalid or are not current.

Such fresh applications will be submitted for acceptance by a meeting of the Committee of Management of AIPA to be held for this purpose at 10.00 am on Tuesday, 19 June 2007 (next Tuesday) at the AIPA office.

Those who have already paid a joining fee to AIPA need not pay again. Otherwise a joining fee of $25 is payable.

Those accepted for membership should be entitled to be included in the roll of voters for elections in AIPA to be held later this year and subject to maintaining financiality will be eligible to nominate or be nominated in those elections.

The roll of voters is due to close on or about 10 July 2007 and AIPA seeks the widest possible membership from Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate pilots before that date, despite the shortness of time.

An application form is available http://www.aipa.org.au/AboutAIPA/tabid/53/Default.aspx. Please sign and return it immediately to the AIPA office.

Although a stay of proceedings has been foreshadowed by the President of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission to take effect 7 days after the decision of SDP Kaufman granting AIPA coverage (therefore from or after 20 June next) the President has recognised the right of AIPA to apply for the foreshadowed stay not to apply and this application will be made.

However, airline pilots employed by Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate must have lodged applications for acceptance by the Committee of Management before its next meeting on Tuesday, 19 June next for their membership and inclusion in the roll of voters to be effective.

Given that this notice can only be emailed to a limited number of Qantas Group pilots, it would be appreciated if you would do what you can to make sure that all pilots in all Qantas Group subsidiaries receive a copy of this email.

On behalf of AIPA I warmly welcome Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate pilots to AIPA membership.

Yours sincerely,

Capt Ian Woods
AIPA President

Lawrie Cox

14th Jun 2007, 10:49

"All Aboard the AIPA Membership Merry-go-round"

Captain Ian Woods' post today spruiking for pilots from Jetstar and the Qantas Regional’s to sign up with AIPA, is yet another turn of the AIPA Membership Merry-go-round and pilots should not be fooled particularly those who trusted their promises the first time round.

Jetstar and regional pilots will remember the earnest assurances two years ago that AIPA had clear eligibility to enrol them under their current rules. The words I recall are that we have a legal opinion to support our claims.

Those pilots, who took them at their word, paid over their money for nothing. SDP Kaufman found in his recent decision that “It follows that, in my view, pilots employed by Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate are currently not eligible to be members of the AIPA.” (para 49 of the decision)
This means AIPA were found not to have eligibility to enrol the pilots. Not a murmur about that from AIPA - wonder why? Not even an apology and/or an offer to return your money.

Now AIPA is confronted with an appeal against SDP Kaufman's decision. A stay (freeze) of the decision has been granted by the President of the Commission, and it is to come into effect next Wednesday. The President granted the stay because he was satisfied that "there is a sufficiently arguable case that leave would be granted to appeal and that the appeal would succeed".

If the appeal succeeds, the recent decision will be set aside and the extended eligibility rule granted by it will be annulled. Those who enrolled under it and paid their money will have nothing to show for it.

So what is AIPA's rush, you may ask. Why not wait until the Commission has finally concluded its proceedings? The obvious answer is that AIPA are unconcerned about the disruption and uncertainty that they will cause. To repeat a quote recently used by Captain Woods, "the end justifies the means".

The extra membership fees will probably help them meet the costs of the wave of litigation that AIPA has instigated over the last few months.

And Qantas mainline pilots might well ask themselves about the good sense of having all these new members on the roll and voting in the upcoming elections, when they could well be struck off soon after if the appeal succeeds. What effect will that have on the election outcome if there were voters who should never have participated?

Obviously the elections could not stand - Captain Woods and his lawyers must know that. But again, the welfare of pilots seems to take second place to the political strategies.

If AIPA want to play their strategic little mind games half way through the match, don't get sucked in. Wait until the umpire has made the final decision.

Lawrie Cox
Manager – Industrial Relations

Keg

14th Jun 2007, 14:01

And Qantas mainline pilots might well ask themselves about the good sense of having all these new members on the roll and voting in the upcoming elections, when they could well be struck off soon after if the appeal succeeds. What effect will that have on the election outcome if there were voters who should never have participated?

Geez, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work this one through. When do you need to be enrolled by? July. When is the actual vote for COM? October.

If the world turns your way Lawrie there will be ample time to ensure that the register is correct.

I know that I'd vote for a Dash 8 or A320 guy to be part of COM. The more united we are the better we are.

Nemisis

15th Jun 2007, 12:38

Reproduced from Qrewroom without comment:AIPA’s warmest welcome to Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate pilots to AIPA membership.
It would be fair to say that it is apparent that AFAP’s Laurie Cox, who is not a pilot, hopes that Jetstar and Qantas Regional Pilots will not apply to join AIPA, as invited by AIPA, so as to be on the roll of voters for this year’s AIPA elections.

In actuality many Jetstar and Qantas Regional Pilots have already done so and indeed AIPA warmly welcomes them and invites all Jetstar and Qantas Regional Pilots to do so.

Those who have in the past signed applications for membership, have been invited to sign fresh applications, to place their membership beyond legal challenge.

My interpretation of the past Qantas/AFAP line, has been that, AIPA does not “really” want all airline pilots employed in the Qantas Group as members.

Of course, it is now rightly recognised, that AIPA does. Notably, AIPA acted immediately SDP Kaufman’s Order of 13 June was made in AIPA’s favour (rejecting the Qantas/AFAP case) to open our membership to all Jetstar and Qantas Regional Pilots.

AIPA wishes all our new members to be on the AIPA electoral roll (which closes on or about 10 July) and also wants new member’s views on the new structure being debated by AIPA to afford active representation to Jetstar and Qantas Regional pilots, which is very important indeed.

If AIPA had not acted immediately to open membership to all those who are now eligible to join AIPA, AFAP no doubt would have said our omission shows AIPA was not serious in covering all airline pilots in the Qantas Group, which of course, would be profoundly untrue.

During the recent hearing before SDP Kaufman, I am not aware of the AFAP making any submission on any issue which conflicted with the case put by Qantas/Jetstar management and curiously, but not surprisingly, AFAP appeared to have acted as the second representative of Qantas/Jetstar management on most issues.

It is a matter of empirical fact that AIPA is a genuine industrial organisation of employees, which stands up for the interests of its members and SDP Kaufman has acknowledged that to be true. AIPA also encourages active participation by all members in its management.

All that said, I would simply like to reiterate Captain Woods and AIPA’s warmest welcome to Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate pilots to AIPA membership.

Yours sincerely,

Captain John D. Dowe

AIPA Secretary

Keg

21st Jun 2007, 07:47

The wheel keeps turning.....

On 20 June 2007, Justice Giudice of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission ordered that:

“The operation of the order made by Senior Deputy President Kaufman on 13 June 2007 be stayed pending the determination of the appeal or further order.”

Regretfully, this means that AIPA cannot continue enrolling Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate members until the Qantas/AFAP appeal is decided.

Nonetheless, I am pleased to advise that in the 7 days AIPA was able to accept members from Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate, 22 pilots took up the opportunity to become financial members of AIPA.

Your Association’s legal advisers are confident that SDP Kaufman’s decision will be upheld and that ultimately AIPA will be able to offer representation to all Qantas Group pilots.

Notwithstanding, AIPA and AFAP are expected to engage in discussions leading to amalgamated coverage.

Rest assured, your Association is cognisant of the need to unify Australia’s airline pilots and will continue to progress the issue as quickly as possible.

A lot of water still to pass under the bridge on this one!

armslides&crossdress

22nd Jun 2007, 08:15

WELL Mr C from AFAP, you state what in your post ...." took them at their word,paid over good money for nothing".
Well I know little of AIPA/QF or group and have long left the AFAP but as an ex CRJ KD pilot.. those current AFAP members may wish to remember AFAP did not protect my seniority, did not get my turbo prop position back from junior pilots. In fact...did squat/zip..for me when I needed them most.
Bitter / twisted = not so much ..just a little much to read Mr C's post and not respond. :yuk:

Shaft135

24th Jun 2007, 08:26

There have been two or three statements made regarding the eligibility of other than Qantas (mainline) pilots able to join AIPA! Which have gone unanswered.:ugh:

Quote; L Cox,
“It follows that, in my view, pilots employed by Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate are currently not eligible to be members of the AIPA.” (para 49 of the decision)

Also somewhere else in this thread I am sure it was quoted.

The direct quote from the AIRC web page is,

[49] It follows that, in my view, pilots employed by Jetstar, Eastern and Sunstate are currently not eligible to be members of the AIPA. I also accept the submissions of Mr McDonald at paragraphs 47 to 56 of his written submissions on this issue.

Paragraph 47 refers to, how AIPA has failed the no better organisation test. And,
Paragraph 56 refers to, the act does not discourage overlapping coverage and the resultant competition for membership.

A former AIPA President on another bulletin board has also stated,
Quote:
I do know that the AIPA rules specifically prohibited AIPA from signing up any members other than pilots engaged in international operations (as a direct result of court action in the early 1980's
:suspect::suspect:

The AIPA Reform Group (ARG) was formed and was elected to the AIPA committee. They came to power on a ticket of reform, among the members on the so-called ticket was a pilot who oh, I Shell referred to as” Buddha” to keep him anonymous if possible.

Under Senior Deputy President (SDP) Kaufman’s decision as per the quotes above, “Buddha” is not eligible to be a member of AIPA and therefore not eligible to be on the committee of management (C.O.M.);)
Also there was a group (may be 80 odd) of $50 members (not Qantas mainline) who also voted in this election, who were in eligible to vote.
Why hasn't anyone including the registrar challenged the election? Or the members of the old Com that were defeated under the ARG's ticket, due to be in eligible (members) voting in that election?:O:(

What about all the decisions made by the ARG since the election with “Buddha” on the COM.:=:=

Keg

24th Jun 2007, 09:05

Shaft, I think that Wayne's quote about AIPA rules should have included the statement "...at the time...".

I'm pretty sure that AIPA's rules were amended to extend to beyond those flying international services about a decade or so ago.

Shaft135

24th Jun 2007, 11:18

Keg, I would prefer not to reveal my source of information.

I'm not sure AIPA did extend their rules decades ago, I cannot find any evidence of that. (A search of the airc hasn't been forthcoming).
If they did why the need to vary there rules now?

In any case the judge has ruled that other than mainline were in eligible.

Do you have a comment on the eligibility of the Com.?

Keg

24th Jun 2007, 11:34

Shaft, nope. To be honest I'm at a loss as to whom you're referring to with the term 'Buddha'.

All I say is that I recall something to do with amending the AIPA rules years ago. It's about the same time that it went from being 'Australian International Pilots' Association' to the 'Australian and International Pilots' Association'

(I'll await for the Mr Apostrophe crowd to tell me whether I got that one right or not! ;) )

Don Diego

27th Jun 2007, 08:03

Well Shaft if nothing else you silenced the peanut gallery for the time being or perhaps they are having trouble getting a reverse charge call through to HKG in order to be told how to slither out and blame the AFAP for it all.DD.

wayne_king

27th Jun 2007, 11:29

Actually Don i just think no one can be bothered replying to Shaft. There's really no point, given he doesn't seem to have any comprehension skills. He can't understand who wrote what, nor what it means.

I have neither the time nor inclination to try and get someone to read something with an open mind, when their mind is closed to anything other than what they're told to believe.

As for you Don, you keep on pontificating on this site, on others, and in the workplace. It's funny to watch, after all most of us can see the compromised position you're in; thinking you're the Manager of Flt Op's best friend, and good buddies with Lawrie, and then believing you know best for the pilots.

Anyway, you have a nice day, and try not to let the hate eat at you too much:O

Keg

20th Dec 2007, 06:46

Today, in a unanimous decision, the Full Bench of the Australian Industrial Relations Commission awarded the Australian and International Pilots Association constitutional coverage of all airline pilots employed in the Qantas Group. The Full Bench was constituted by SDP Acton, DP Ives and Commissioner Blair and consented to the alteration of the eligibility rules of AIPA by inserting the following new paragraph:

“Without in any way limiting the generality of any other provision of this rule or being limited thereby, all persons who are normally employed as pilots on airline services within or extending beyond the Commonwealth of Australia operated in whole or part and under any name by any of:

(i) Qantas Airways Limited ABN 16 009 661 901;
(ii) Qantas Limited ABN 73 003 613 465;
(iii) Australian Airlines Limited ABN 85 099 625 304;
(iv) Jetstar Airways Pty Limited ABN 33 069 720 243;
(v) Eastern Australia Airlines Pty Limited ABN 77 001 599 024; or
(vi) Sunstate Airlines (Qld) Pty Limited ABN 82 009 734 703

shall be eligible for membership in the Organisation (AIPA).”

Affirming an earlier decision of SDP Kaufman which had been appealed by Qantas and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots, the Full Bench extended AIPA’s coverage to Jetstar and the Qantas Regional airlines. The alteration will come into effect on 2 January 2008.

i hope this is something we can work from to improve the lot of all group pilots.