Prist Fuel Anti-Ice

[spooky]

A post in Lavdumpers column warrants a new topic.
Smaller bizjets such as some Citations and Lears require the addition of this fuel anti-ice by aerosol. Some places supply fuel with it ready-mixed, most do not.
Does anyone know of a safer and easier to use product? Any chemists out there have views on the toxicity of this stuff? Do rubber gloves really help? Can I safely mix a G & T after fuelling?

[Desert Duck]

I dont know of anything else but use the stuff with extreme care

[Flintstone]

I've heard the same. Certainly wear gloves, avoid splashes etc and only drink it as a last resort when the mini bar is empty. :)

[Shanwick Shanwick]

I got covered in the stuff about 8 years ago and so far no effects.

I didn't smell too good on the next sector though!

[Weary]

Prist is truly miraculous stuff -

I know on the C441 Conquest one single can lasted, oooh, forever. It worked so well in fact that you could just leave it in the nose locker and you still would never get ice! Using it that way also had great economic advantages; you didn't need to buy gloves, masks, or more cans of prist. ;) ;) ;)
Having said that, every second or third refuelling was with pre-mix anyway, but even before that was available - still no ice. Mind you, that may just be the C441.

Seriously though, I know no easier way of dispensing it other than the way described on the can. I even tried asking the refueller if he would be so kind but he wouldn't touch the stuff because of it's toxicity http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif.

Bottom line is, if you really HAVE to use it, wear lots of protection and don't inhale.

[This message has been edited by Weary (edited 03 September 2000).]

[hansi]

I agree leave the dam stuff in the nose locker. If you do have to use it get Breating Aparatus. Or buy pre-mix. And if you buy a lot of fuel push your suppliers into providing pre-mix if they don't already.
Texaco certainly do it in the UK. Any others?

[gaunty]

Weary
Pretty much our experience with the C441.
Mind you ice is something we put in G & T in my part of the world.
The delivered fuel temp was always quite high and relatively short 400NM sectors kept it under control.
Delivery of Prist? clip on end of fuel hose, press the button and go hide/make a cup of coffee or some other appropriate excuse.

Legendary aircraft. As far as I know I still hold the unofficial record for the class in Oz. Perth to Coolangatta 2000+nm, 6 hr 15m at FL330-350 +35kts pretty much ISA as I recall, arrived overhead with enough for Sydney.
Only problem was I ran out of empty coffee jars and the last hour or so was a bit uncomfortable.

Our Citations were always a bit of a problem as we had a union problem with Prist at the Capital City airports, wouldn't fuel with it and we weren't allowed to fuel ourselves. We were always able to work it out but a pain nonetheless.

Roll on premix.

spooky http://www.ppg.com/gls_ppgglass/aircraft/prist.htm
I never tried it in my G & T but shaken not stirred perhaps.

[hansi]

Cheers for the website.
All in all a product to avoid.

[lucille]

gaunty??

Would you be the same dude that once managed Corpair in Perth?? c 1989?. Hmmm. small world methinks.

[Kagamuga]

Prist is a very effective 'anti-ice' additive when used correctly, you only need one spec of water to ruin an FCU. Just as importantly Prist is used as an anti fungal treatment to kill the bugs in Jet fuel, and is very important in the tropics etc with warm fuel. If Prist is not available a couple of litres of Avgas will kill the bugs also.

[rick1128]

Been using Prist for years without any ill effects. Of course I don't drink it and wash my hands before eating. One problem I have found about using premix is that some vendors will tell you the fuel is blended or is premixed, when it is not. The case I have in mind is when I ferried National Jet System's last two Lear 35's back to the US. The fueler in Brisbane told me the fuel was premixed. Just over half way to Pago Pago the engine ice light comes on. NOT a comfortable feeling. Now adays I am very careful about using fuel that is claimed to be premixed till I really know the operator.

[spooky]

thanks team!!
I've heard of some stuff that you can just pour in the top filler caps and then pressure re-fuel. I wonder if it mixes properly. This is a rumour from a re-fueller who did a Lux Aviation Citation recently. Apparently it came in a silver coloured container........? Doesn't sound kosher to me but I would like to contact the company to see what they have to say. Any improvement on the current aerosol nightmare would be welcome as the failure rate of these cans and caps is quite unnecessary I'm sure.

[Check 6]

We are also finding a high failure rate of our two brands of anti-ice/fungal additives in that nothing comes out of the cans, even though they are full or nearly full. I have only seen the pour-type cans of additive in Nurnberg, Germany at Aero Dienst Aviation. You pour the contents in while adding fuel. You must be careful in not getting the contents on the paint or pour too fast which could damage your fuel tanks.

Check 6

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Kick the tires, light the fires, first off is lead, brief on guard.

[gaunty]

lucille

himself http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif :)

[This message has been edited by gaunty (edited 11 September 2000).]

[wondering]

I reckon using Prist is mainly a liability problem. BP says its fuel is good up tp -40C. So, why do we still need to use Prist then? Is it the bizjet manuafacturers trying to save a buck or two to get an stc out or do they have a business interest selling Prist? Just a thought.

[This message has been edited by wondering (edited 15 September 2000).]

[spooky]

Hi Wondering, at the levels we fly its usually around -55 C so after a long soak we need some anti-ice. No alternative?

[gaunty]

wondering
Mate, it sure is a liability problem if the manufacturers manual says you gotta use it, it all goes quiet and you haven't been. :)

[spooky]

Well said....wondering - look back at the link in Gaunty's previous. Something to be learned - I certainly did. Ice forms in fuel at temperatures a lot warmer than -40C
Cheers :)

[This message has been edited by spooky (edited 19 September 2000).]

[Shanwick Shanwick]

In a previous life I used to operate Citations and would use prist religiously but now, despite looking at Gaunty's link (Prist Sales Pitch) I'm not so sure.

I now fly a 744 which has no heated tanks unlike the Classic. Boeing found that it was almost never required and removed the system completely. I thought about this post when flying the other day in a SAT of -63c, TAT -40c. Despite over 2 hours at that temperature, the fuel temp. didn't drop below -37c.

To conclude, as long as you loaded a reasonable amount of "warm" fuel and you're operating at a Mach No. high enough to avoid TAT's below -40c you should never have a problem.

[spooky]

Yo SS.... I dusted off the whizz wheel and after some confusion, I reckoned with a ram rise of some 23C you must be TASing around 460kts. I seem to remember we did around 340 or so TAS at levels where it could get to -63 and that only gives a rise of about 12C giving a TAT of -51C. Kinda chilly, even with the ultra I'm in now if we can get 410 after a while that gives a theoretical rise of 19C which puts us up to -44 TAT. Still a little cold.
Yes having looked at Gaunty's link I'm sure Prist are doing a sales pitch and Cessna have US litigation to contend with, but even so a Citation did do a hurried arrival into BMH last year with bypass filter lights on having missed out the prist on several consecutive fills....no flame out and no blocks were found so it was thought that it was probably filters becoming obstructed with ice which consequently melted.
Its horrible stuff and I'd rather not have anything to do with it, but the manual says use it so there's a liability thing there.
If the fuel companies could be persuaded to have those little bowsers that inject it if you want it, that would be a good thing.....


[This message has been edited by spooky (edited 21 September 2000).]

[pigboat]

The trick with Prist is to get it premixed into the fuel. The stuff in the little cans is a real bitch - correct quantity, toxicity - to use. It was recommended by RR, and we made it mandatory on the F27 and G1 year round when we refuelled with JetA, and in the winter with JetB. I've had the fuel heat lights come on on both aircraft when using JetA without Prist, but it was after three plus hours of flight at extremely low temperatures. Didn't help that the fuel was already at -30 when it was boarded. Never had any occurrence using JetB, probably due to the greater percentage of gasoline in JetB.
Too much Prist is also something to look out for. In too high a concentration it will attack some products used to seal wet wings (PRC). We got a slug of the stuff once on the F27, when the valve on the bowser malfunctioned. It wasn't discovered until the following morning when maintenance drained the system and browinsh globs showed up in the sample from the right wing. Lab analysis showed the excess concentration of Prist, I forget the exact amount, but it was very high, and the brown globules were PRC. Had to drain and flush the right wing fuel tanks, change the filters and inspect the HP fuel pump and FCU for contamination. Thankfully we hadn't used the crossfeed the day before.
There's a product called BioBor that should be used to inhibit fungal growth in fuel tanks. Those little buggers actually thrive in aviation kerosene, and if left alone they'll really mess up your tanks. The fungus needs fairly constant fuel temperatures of between about 55 to 70 degrees F to survive, so we froze their little fungal butts in our neck of the woods.
This post is overly long, but this has been our experience, so I thought I'd pass it on. Sometimes ignorance is bliss, but other times it'll cost you a bundle.

[spooky]

Check6 , do you know (or anyone else) know the product name of the pour in variety of fuel anti-ice?

[Check 6]

Spooky, sorry I do not know the name. Call Aero Dienst Aviation at Nurnberg (EDDN). That is the only place where I have seen it.

Check 6

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Kick the tires, light the fires, first off is lead, brief on guard.

[halfhardt-6]

I have had the stuff in my eyes, on my skin and every where but my gin and tonic. I wear gloves as thick as possible, eye and face protection and I always point the can in the dircection of the fuel truck driver!
Every possible caution should be taken as its effects may not show up for years to come. With regard to pour in anti-ice as opposed to the cans, apparently you should not allow un-mixed Prist to touch the interior walls of the fuel tank as it is can corrode them ( so i've been told). We have never had any ice problems with our Lear 35A, even when i forgot to pack the Prist for a long trip home! Be careful when handling and save the Prist for the boss's G&T and not your own.

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Thank you players, Thank you ball boys

[smallfry]

My understanding (very basic and from a while ago)is that Prist is mainly an anti-icing additive, and only kills the fungus by surrounding the water it (the fungus/bacteria) lives in with a film, and prevents it 'feeding' of the jet A1.
BIOBOR is an additive that actually kills the fungus/bacteria (or microorganism), that thrives in humid conditions in jet fuel.
A litre or two of AVGAS mixed in the jet fuel used to do the job as well. (the drum we threw in by mistake probably polished the fuel tanks!), luckily the engine was allowed to run on various fuels, and it was duly logged.
We never operated in very cold environments, or flew high enough (unpressurised) to worry about icing, but I once saw an aircraft in maintanance with a tank full of sludge that was the dreaded bateria/fungus/microorganism, and would have been very unhappy if it had been my aircraft.



[This message has been edited by smallfry (edited 25 September 2000).]

[gaunty]

Guys
Definitely not a fan of Prist for fuel, in fact have lost the odd Citation sale to turboprops due to the union problems in this area. Most of the later models now have heaters.
Yup its a liability problem as well as being a real one.
Fascinated by SS comments and can only deduce that it may be the volume of the fuel in the tanks and size/bore of the delivery system that provides this opportunity. The B744 prolly sucks the equivalent of a Citation fuel tank every few minutes. :rolleyes:
Is there a fuel return line from the engine pumps inn the B747, if so is it possible that this provides sufficient heated fuel to keep it under control.
Is it also a latitude issue with higher latitudes tending to relatively higher upper level temps than lower latitudes?

But if I do have a sales pitch then the Prist window cleaner is THE best. soooorry Danny.

[This message has been edited by gaunty (edited 25 September 2000).]

[Mike Echo]

The anti ice additive in pour cans is called "Anti-Ice AL31"
The man with the info is Michael Koehn-Hevernick at Aviation Assistance Tel (49) 2571 95 29 00, Fax (49)2571 95 29 09 or
e-mail [email protected]
The AL31 meets the MIL spec MIL-1-27686 as quoted in our Citation Ultra Flight Manual so is legally acceptable. It does have to be added during overwing refuelling and cannot be poured directly into the tank. I still need to talk to Cessna before throwing away the Prist to cover ourselves from a Warranty point of view

[This message has been edited by Mike Echo (edited 26 September 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Mike Echo (edited 26 September 2000).]

[spooky]

Great stuff Mike Echo. Please keep us posted with your results from Cessna.
BP have a small bowser with some stuff called AL48, at at least one UK airfield. I assume its related. Its injected in a metered supply with the JetA1. :)

[Mike Echo]

For those still interested
I have had a reply from Cessna who agree that the AL31 can be used as long as the correct mixture can be maintained and that concentrated AL31 does not contact the inner wing surface (not sure how you can be certain of that when pouring?).
However, Cessna advised me that there is a replacement Spec MIL-I-85470 that is approved by Cessna and the engine manufacturers that is far less hazardous and toxic. they have not given me a Trade name for it so I'll have to do more research.

[This message has been edited by Mike Echo (edited 03 October 2000).]

[spooky]

Again, very useful info for those involved in the activity. Many thanks - Keep us posted. Cheers :)

[This message has been edited by spooky (edited 03 October 2000).]

[This message has been edited by spooky (edited 03 October 2000).]