High speed abort @ KASE.

[con-pilot]

I have received some questions about the abort I had at Aspen related on the G-3 crash topic in the rumors and news forum.

We were deadheading home after dropping off the boss in Aspen, he lives there. It was around 19:30. The weather was decent 3500 ovc, with 6mils vis and RA-.

Because of the altitude of ASE we always come up to full power before brake release.
At about 100+kts (V-1 was 111kts.) the master caution light and the low oil pressure light came on (the Sabre only has one oil pressure light for both engines). I was PNF in the right seat (we switch seats between PNF and PF). Stardust, the PF, and I saw the lights at about the same time. She called "Oil pressure" and at the same time I called for the abort. Before the word abort was out of my mouth she had applied full brakes, we armed the TRs and stopped with a little over 1,000ft of runway left.

During the abort I noted that the left engine was showing 0psi on the oil pressure gauge. After clearing the runway, at A-1 taxiway with no backtaxi for those of you that are familiar with KASE, we shut down the left engine. The left engine ran until we shut it down (by the way it is not going to start again until it gets back from the engine shop, that's why we have a loaner engine on the airplane now).

If we had lost the oil pressure after V-1 I would have keept the engine running until we above 15,000ft or until it seized up, blew up or fell off. We had the engine out climb performance required for the SID, but because of where we were I would have left the engine running as long as I could.

It appears that the engine had a failure of the nose case and the interplantery gear. When the bottom cowl of the engine was opened the next morning (no we didn't mess with the engine that night, we went to the bar) quite a bit of metal fell out on the ramp. The inside part of the oil pump housing had blown out and the engine and aft left section of the aircraft was covered with oil. The fan blades (N1) were seized and could not be moved.

Three factors made this a very sucessful abort.

1. Training. (Flight Safey, I have been going to them for twenty five plus years.)

2. CRM. Everybody knew what to do.

3. Situational Awareness. (being in Aspen that speaks for it's self)

Oh yeah, the type airplane is a Sabre 65 with TFE-731-3-1F engines.

Anyway, no big deal, the bar had a lot of wiskey.

PS. This was the first high speed abort (for real) I have had. In 20,000hrs T.T, 15,000hrs Jet with 7,000hrs in a B727. Just lucky I guess.



[This message has been edited by con-pilot (edited 02 April 2001).]

[This message has been edited by con-pilot (edited 02 April 2001).]

[Flyswift]

Con,

Well done to you both.......Utterly professional!!

;)

[mutt]

I guess that the little Saber was expressing her displeasure as getting replaced with a French bird.......

Glad to see that everything worked out properly.

Mutt :)

[fokkerjet]

To the both of you, nice job!

Night time,7800 foot elevation, 7000 feet of damp runway in a Sabre, very nice job http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif
I'd say if it was 40c at the time, you were in the simulator :)

[Flight Safety]

Nice job to both of you. I'm glad the oil pressure light came on before V1 and not after, or it would have been a very different experience. It also sounds like your desire to coax the last ounce of power out of the failed engine wouldn't have gone very far, as seizure appeared imminent.

------------------
Safe flying to you...

[Latte tester]

Well done Con Pilot, although I've never had to abort in ASE in anger, the sim does a really nice job of letting you know just what you don't have - runway and climb gradient.
Latte time......or a visit to the bar after the abort :) :)

[Flight Safety]

Con-pilot, I've been thinking about your abort as ASE off and on for the last several days. Something about what you said regarding this abort has been bothering me.

First of all, the performance of both you and your fellow pilot were excellent, absolutely first rate.

However, it's what you said about what you would do if the Master Caution and Oil Pressure light had come on AFTER V1, that concerned me. Doesn't the procedure require you to shut down an engine that goes to 0 psi oil pressure? What could have been the possible consequences if you had tried to push that engine at full power with 0 psi oil pressure in the air?

I know that you were at ASE, and I know the time was 19:30. But I'm just asking you to think about what would have happened had this occurred after V1 instead of before. Think about the damage you saw to the engine when you inspected it the next day, and think about what that engine might have done (with the damage you saw) had you tried to push it at full power after V1, until it failed.

Would you have had a safe alternative to pushing this engine to failure under these conditions?

------------------
Safe flying to you...

[This message has been edited by Flight Safety (edited 10 April 2001).]

[Flanker]

Flight Safety

First of all I've never been to Aspen! However this would seem to be a worst-case place for an engine failure.

First if you can't safely fly out single engine from V1 you should not be attempting a take off under those condidions IMHO.

However if the engine was developing power I would certainly plan on getting all I could from it,within set procedures.In my jet nothing would be done below 400ft agl except fly the jet, get the gear up(probably) and cancel any warnings(once you know what they are),particularly in this case!

Then start finding out what's wrong.This can be the tricky bit, is it severely damaged or burning?If not,we can ignore it for a bit longer and continue to climb away.(Aspen I know would have special considerations and probably specific procedures).

I have had an argument with a 'trainer'over a similar scenario.In this case the engine was on fire but producing power.Our procedures (and the manufacturers)defined that we ought to shut the engine down at 400ft agl and that is what I would have done unless I had a VERY good reason for doing otherwise.He wanted us to change that to 1500ft agl, contrary to agreed SOP's.He would in fact have left it burning until clear of all high ground,using Innsbruck as an example.

OK fine if you fancy being a test pilot(with test passengers)and thinking the engine will burn itself off no problem.Personally I'm going to(try to)stick to the plan and if I don't have an advance plan I ain't going!

We all have our ideas about how to operate and being pilots are not shy about expressing them.I think the oil pressure example you use is not a cut and dried one, others may be clearer.

I guess as long as you don't crash you've done something right!

[con-pilot]

Flight Safety and Flanker. You both raised good points and I would like to answer them.

1. There has never been an engine fire with a TFE-731 engine. So the chances of the catching on fire and blowing up are very, very low.

2. As Flanker pointed out the minimum altitude that any pilot action should be taken is at 400ft AGL. Many operators, including most airlines have raised the altitude to 1,000ft AGL. No matter which altitude is used no pilot action should be initiated until the Transition Segment (third segment) of the takeoff profile. The only exception to this procedure would be inadvertent thrust reverser deployment.

3. The 400ft or 1,000ft AGL altitudes are figured for airports with no extreme obstacles. Aspen is not one of those type airport. Minimum safe altitude for the thrid segmemt is around 12,000ft on the SID, which is around 4,000ft AGL.

4. The engine manfacturer states that the TFE-731 engine can run for over 45min. with no oil.

So with 20/20 hindsight I guess I should have said that I would have kept the engine running as long it was producing power or until the final segment of the takeoff profile.

Anyway thanks for the questions. this is what PPRUNE as all about.

[Flanker]

con-pilot

My reply is from the perspective of an airline(booo-hisss)pilot in the UK.I fly 737-300 and the bulk of my experience is on this and other Boeings.

We would only carry out memory items at 400ft agl which incudes engine fire,severe damage or separation.This would be true anywhere we operate, even if carrying out emergency turns if they apply.We as a company accelerate(third segment) at 1000ft agl minimum,occasionally a bit higher if required by performance(3000agl on two engines).But the live engine is limited to five minutes at full power for normal planning purposes.(I know it will go longer)

On the subject of reversers I read a thread on Avsig once where all the guys were saying how reverser deployment was no real hassle in the sim(agree)and no big deal really.A Boeing test pilot(sadly dead now)came on and said basically if you have a reverser deploy on take-off you're more or less screwed, even on a sleeve type like the 737-300.
Sobered everybody up a bit!

Better Lucky than Good!

[Flight Safety]

Con-pilot and Flanker, my thanks to both of you for clearing that up.