Resigned from BA to fly the BBJ !!! [Archive]

Bobby Johnson

29th Dec 2000, 08:57

Thanks for the comments guys, Ive just finished my last trip, up at 4:00 return from FCO to LGW then GOA and back. It does seem strange that I am going to hand back my 'Platinum stripes'and my ID Card that seems to get me in a lot of places.

To answer a few of your questions.

JJFlyer - I tried to get a year off to go and do this however BA do make out they are considerate to this sort of request and have done this before, however I was told that they could not spare a Captain for that legngth of time. I knew that I would regret it forever if I did not do it, so I resigned. Whilst I do not have anything against BA and would have liked to stay I certainly would not have given my left nut for them!

Hi Spooky,

Your comments are very valid, I am 39 and it is not a mid life crisis, it is just that I have always wanted to do this but never had the experience to get a really good job in the corporate world. I have had many offers over the years but have never found one that pays enough and suits the lifestyle that I like. Now I have so I just did it. With regard to pensions etc. thats all covered, once again I would not have done it otherwise.
With regard to your comment of security, it is a common misconception that you have a job with BA for life. That is just not true, people who work for BA like to think that and portray that to others, however they all know that is not the case. You spend most of your time looking over your shoulder wondering when you next 'coffee/tea and no buscuits' interview is.

I havent started yet, when I do I will let you all know how it is going. I look at it as a Big Adventure and a fantastic opportunity.

Best Regards

BJ

LAVDUMPER

29th Dec 2000, 11:04

BJ,

I think what you are doing makes complete sense - and I applaud you for it. If your pension, etc. is taken care of, then it sounds like a fantastic opportunity.

Where will you be based? What regions do you expect to fly to? The chance to fly a BBJ worldwide would be difficult to pass up...

CRP5

29th Dec 2000, 14:33

Bobby saw you on your last day good luck mate and thanks for the tips on landing when I was brand new!!

spooky

29th Dec 2000, 14:38

Hi BJ, interesting comments about the look over the shoulder atmosphere at Birdseed Airways. Big Corporation mentality, divide and rule I suppose.
Life's dull without big adventures and it's not that often that a decent challenge like this comes up.
Good for you!! I look forward to hearing progress reports as it develops.
For what it's worth - get some numbers in your mobile phone(charged at all times!!)
Flow control, Brussels.
Get a decent book of handling agents (worldwide)
Get into the mysteries of filing fpl's that work and backup when you're down route. Having it all in a laptop helps as things can change quite rapidly as the client changes his/her travel plans.
Cheers, happy new year :)

TEMP0+TSRAGR

29th Dec 2000, 15:15

Brave man !
I spent years trying to get into BA, only been there two years now and have to say I prefer the flying and culture in my old airline. Still, at your age to throw away all the 'perks' not to mention the pension which has got to be the best in the industry ? I take my hat off to you, good for you !
Airline flying is very much like flying in a straight jacket, its a far cry from what most people percieve it to be, often the smaller cariers and BJ operators are where the friendly atmosphere and grass root flying is to be had.
A friend of mine left BA after only 3 months, its not for everybody ........
Good luck .......

StressFree

29th Dec 2000, 22:05

BJ,
You are doing the right thing, believe me. I'm on a BBJ and probably have a better pension than you have at BA, plus more extra benefits. Where will you be based? I'm in the London area, mail me if you have any further doubts.

:)

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'Keep the stress down'

CrashDive

29th Dec 2000, 23:08

A friend of mine and fellow PPRuNer - Air Driven Generator - might be able to offer a lot of good advice; last time I spoke to him he was flying a rather nice Challenger.

Suggest searching for for some of his posts within PPRuNe land, or failing that email him at [email protected].

Ps. I'm dead jealous.

Cobra

2nd Jan 2001, 05:55

Welcome to the "Club" BJ.
As a former line pilot I've had no regrets whatsoever since the changeover many years ago. Like any "job", Corporate/Bizjet has its good and bad days, but the diversity, people contact and the opportunity to visit( & sometimes stay) in great locations, will keep you more than interested.
Of course be prepared for the short notice advice of pending trips, together with long waits and delays from time to time. A good employer( and the regs.) will/should ensure you conform to the duty requirements etc.
Good luck.

P.S. Happy New Year folks :)

LAVDUMPER

8th Jan 2001, 00:12

BJ,

Having flown 737s for BA (presumably 737-200s, 300s and 400s), what sort of additional training do you require for the BBJ? Have you started that training yet? What types of hours/experience would be required for new-hire FOs for your BBJ?

Can't wait to hear about your transition to the corporate world - pluses and minuses in comparison... Should be fun and interesting!

Cheers

26point2

9th Jan 2001, 21:41

Bobby J,Good luck with the new job, I have just completed the BBJ course in Seattle and absolutely love it.Good move, You've done your bit....Now,enjoy.

:) :)

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Keep on running.

con-pilot

13th Jan 2001, 02:41

Saddly it looks like I will have to add TWA and US Air (?) to my earlier comment. I hope everybody keeps their jobs. I have a lot of friends with TWA.

Brat

17th Jan 2001, 23:27

Having been pichforked out of the carriers, the line folded, and into exec, I had mouths to feed I was an unwilling participant in that route. It had after all taken a long hard slog to get where I was.That said it's been extremely interesting and never dull. I have kept up with peers, now all over the world with various airlines. Do I regret that I am not flying a 340/744, yes! Have I had fun, yes!
It's certainly been a great experience and I've probably seen more of the world than I would have with my old airline, and we had a pretty good route structure, though not as good as BA.
One is definitely not as hand held and mollycodled as the line pilots. You are out there doing your stuff in a different place every day, and taking care of quite a lot more in the way of general duties. Catering cleaning buying mags, toiletries filing flt plans coping with luggage, handling agents fuel, toilets etc, etc not to mention some pretty pampered people in the back who think, indeed are, pretty special. Your routes depend on the boss. Most of them though get the big iron to travel around long distances in comfort and like new exciting destinations. For you that means exotic,ie not too travelled and that's extra work. Exec in the light jets don't tend to go as far afield as the BAC's 72's GV's Globals, tend to be a tad more on the grunt work/ lower pay side of things, been there and got that T shirt too.. The BBG crowd however are at the top end of the table near the scones and cream puffs so you've definitely moved to the right side of the tracks.
It can be great if you've got good folks with you, it's a small family and can be cosy or it can be hell. Good girls in the back make life a lot easier and always remember they bring you your food. I've gone pretty pale at some of the stories I have been told by the ladies in the back, and a lot of them are ex-airline too.
It will be interesting, and if it's a good outfit and a nice boss you will never regret the day. I wish you all the best.
P.S Got a son whose trying for BA he's been applying since he was at school he still reckons that where the Grail resides. Who know for him it might. he's through exec and on to charter and still hoping.

Avman

19th Jan 2001, 02:09

On the other hand, if you're flying Fordair's new BBJs I suspect that there isn't that much diversity in your destinations. Or am I wrong in thinking this?

By the way I saw Fox Echo make its first appearance at our local airport (MST) last Monday. Although many of you already have, may I remind others that you're always welcome to visit "Maastricht Control". Simply call 3661234 and ask for the Ops Room Centre Supervisor. Then during our break you can take us for a quick spin in your new toy :)

LAVDUMPER

23rd Jan 2001, 01:03

Hey BJ,

Now that we are all interested in your career move, perhaps you could update us on your progress every once-and-awhile.

Have you started training yet? What have you been up to lately? How are things progressing on your end?

Cheers

Joe Ninety

23rd Jan 2001, 14:24

Good luck to you Bobby and yes, as others have asked, please keep us informed of your progress etc.

One other thing: For those of us still in the airline rat race who might at some stage want to do the same thing, can you offer any tips on how you found the job? Did you carpet-bomb the operators you wanted to work for with CV's, did you have contacts, or what?

Sorry, yet another thing: how do the pay and benefits compare?

All the best.

Joe

Air Driven Generator

25th Jan 2001, 16:21

Sorry for late response but have been away flying my A.. off. Congratulations Bobby, I am sure you will enjoy the new world of Corporate Aviation. Thanks Crashdive, I don't know if I can offer any more advise I think all the posts have pretty much covered
it. Bobby give my regards to Trevor & Wes when you see them!! see I know!! GA is a small world. Have great fun.

Bobby Johnson

30th Jan 2001, 02:50

Hi folks,

Finished two days in the sim at crack of sparrows then flew to Northern Africa then to Agadir the next day then back to STN. Following Tuesday went to Wichita to get the Winglets put on and just got back.
Off again in the morning.

Its deffinately different to BA. The operating procedures are very different and sitting in the right hand seat and reading Jepps blew my mind on my first 15min Sector.

Oh well I'll #### happens.

I didnt have my logon details for prune with me so I'll take them with me next time.

Regards

Bobby J

Bobby Johnson

30th Jan 2001, 02:55

LAVDUMPER

30th Jan 2001, 03:03

BJ,

Sounds like an interesting transition. A couple of questions for you:

1. How was the transition to the NG cockpit - full EFIS screens? How do you like the BBJ versus your previous 737-200/400?

2. How do you like the long-distance flying versus your previous short hops?

3. How far afield do you expect to fly in the BBJ? Asia? North America? Most frequent likely destinations?

Sounds like really interesting flying - I still think you made the right decision. Keep us posted.

Envious...

[This message has been edited by LAVDUMPER (edited 29 January 2001).]

StressFree

30th Jan 2001, 16:27

BJ,
Was that you this morning at STN? I arrived in one of our BBJ's just before you set off for Agadir, your plane looks better with winglets! Ours have them fitted as well, how do you find descending and slowing down at the same time compared with the other 737's youve flown?

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

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'Keep the stress down'

StressFree

30th Jan 2001, 16:34

Shanwick Shanwick

31st Jan 2001, 02:49

Is there an echo in here?

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hhhiiisssssccrrrraaaacckkkllesssshhhhhh

StressFree

31st Jan 2001, 23:53

Evening Shanny,
Glad to see youre still around, I had a bit of finger trouble with my posting. Echo? Is this some sort of northern humour that us Essex lads dont get?
Whats the latest? Any developments? Surely you dont want to still get back to this side of the fence.
Regards.

:)

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'Keep the stress down'

Shanwick Shanwick

2nd Feb 2001, 02:37

Good Evening Sir,

Echo.....Echo..... get it?

Anyway, no developments to speak of other than possible industrial action at VS.

Security's fairly good and I enjoy the time off but that's about it.

Given the right job with the right company I'll be off.

Enjoying the BBJ then?

Must go now. JFK tomorrow.

Brgds

Shanny

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Bobby Johnson

5th Feb 2001, 10:41

Hi Guys,

Yes you were right stress free it was me at STN on our way to Agadir, then Jeddah, it sounds like you cant F**t without someone knowing what you are doing in the corp world. In BA you could just hide in the shadows.Better be carefull what I say.

Well to give you guys an idea of how it is going. Overall it is great, operationally it is taking a bit of getting used to, there is a great divide between the way an airline operates a 737 and the way corporate do it, I'll just have to get used to it. Fortunately the flying of the aircraft is the same its just the procedures. I suppose in BA there are lots of people concentrating on SOP's. Boeing seem to have some glaring omissions in their checklists and SOP's, but that another story.

With regard to lifestyle, its pretty good, the only thing I'm having to get used to is the fact I dont know when I'm going to get a day off in the two months Im working. I work two months on and one month off.

I have in the past done alot of web site design and am thinking about doing a site purely fpr Corporate Pilots, with a forum, with categories for each corp aircraft, a facility that will enable you to pick up your email from any Internet browser, so you can logon at any hotel, a bit like hotmail, but using your own POP accounts.
Its probably a bit selfish but its a way of finding out more about the aircraft Im flying. What do you all think and what would you like to see on it if I did.

Well thats it for a while.
The boss likes to keep everything reasonably low key so I cant go into any specifics, ie whats the cabin like etc, so you will forgive me if I cant anwser all your questions. However if you hear me airborne in VP-BRM say hello to Bobby!!

LAVDUMPER

11th Feb 2001, 06:59

I can't let this thread die! It's just TOO interesting!!!!!!!!!!

Quick question. Bobby, I noted your aircraft's registration/tail number. If it starts with "VP", does that denote a UK registration or does "G" do that? For some reason, I thought "VP" was French?

Appreciate any clarification!

Cheers

mutt

11th Feb 2001, 11:26

Bobby,

That aircraft appears to spend a lot of time in JED, is this your actual base?

The aircraft doesnt have winglets, how does the performance compare with the winglet equipped machines?

Are you using the Boeing Laptop tool for takeoff performance?

Lavdumper,

VP-B means that the aircraft is registered in the Carribean, Bermuda, i think.

Mutt

inlet corrosion

11th Feb 2001, 14:36

In reply to the question regards the wing-lets.
We had them fitted in October and they seem to have a small fuel saving at higher levels but the savings are not too noticeable.
Other than looks they dont seem to offer much else !!!

Joe Ninety

11th Feb 2001, 14:45

VP-B = Bermuda
VP-C = Cayman Islands

"VP" is only French if it's got "RS" in front of it I think...!

Bobby, I'd still like to know (and I'm sure your boss wouldn't think this was giving too much away) how you found out about this job; no names or anything, just whether it was ever advertised anywhere or if you had contacts in the corporate field.

SilentHandover

12th Feb 2001, 01:58

Bobby, enjoy your mega long haul flight on Monday morning, you will be in good hands the top team will be on duty at Farnborough to help you in to sLasham.
Give us a wave as you pass over head.

Cobra

12th Feb 2001, 05:25

SilentHandover & others
Any update/news on further upgrades to Farnborough facilities. Also what chance curfew/s being lifted?? Are the "locals" still protesting?

SilentHandover

12th Feb 2001, 19:27

The latest news at Farnborough is this,
local planning permission has been granted for TAG to operate EGLF as a centre of exellence for Business Aviation, to start with the number of movements is limited to 28,000 pa, with 2,500 of these being allowed at weekends and ph's, and approximately 1,600 to be in the 50-80 tonnes bracket, i.e. GV, BBJ and ACJ.
Survey work has just been completed reference the fitting of a temporary Glide Path for both runway 07 and 25 and a localiser on runway 07, there is talk of this being operation by autumn 2001.
The hours of operation will not change and will stay at 0700-2200 local times M-F and 0800-2000 on weekends and ph's. A lot of work has already been done in the surrounding areas to clear the path for the full ILS for runway 07, and the local Green lobby are quite keen on the work that has been done as it has returned land to its origianl state of heathland from being forest.
Movement rates are increasing, 31% up on the year to date.
Upgrades of the taxiways and lighting system are the priorities for EGLF followed by the new control tower, hangers and Business aviation terminal.
Hope this info is of some use.

StressFree

13th Feb 2001, 00:16

To all BBJ drivers,
Are you using the Boeing BLT? We are and its superb, the next step for us is a permanent flight deck installation, has your machine got one? If so how was it done? Any ideas most welcome. Thanks.

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'Keep the Stress Down'

Bobby Johnson

13th Feb 2001, 12:44

Hi folks,

Lavdumper - Your question Was answered by Joe Ninety

Mutt - Hi Mutt, we do have winglets now and there is a little saving basically we saved 1000 lbs on a 10 hour sector, not much, but hey it looks good. Yes we do use the BLT for performance.

Joe Ninety - The job was advertised in flight mag and a number opf people were interviewed, I must have bought more beers than the others!

SilentHandover - I know who you are now!! Couldnt wave too crappy as you know.

StreesFree - Id like to know how you make the BLT a perm fixture its a good bit of software but a pain in the rear to keep having to fire up the PC.

To all BBJ drivers, do you all fly to Boeing procedures, or do you vary them or what do you do?
Those with winglets does your FMC have the update for the winglets ie does it have the correct stab trim?

Did you know that the addition of winglets is not certified by JARs because the lights on the wingtips do not comply with the regs.

Does anyone use JeppView with a portable handheld handset in the flightdeck without having to print the charts out everytime.

WEll still enjoying it, only 15 days and 12 hours to go before my month off ( only kidding). Looks like Im going to have to write an SOP manual which will be suited for the Private operation but with the experience from the BA days, that could be tricky.

Speak to you soon guys.

mutt

13th Feb 2001, 14:54

Welcome back BJ,

I thought that the winglets were supposed to offer better savings than that, thanks for letting me know. (Thanks also Inlet Corrosion)

Now to the fun BLT, how can you install this in the cockpit as a permanent device, we looked into this a number
of years ago with the Fedex Takeoff Computer, we were getting into all sorts of certification issues once the device started using the aircrafts power and was a permanent fixture. Have Boeing given you any ideas on this?

What sort of laptop are you using ?

Are you using SITA obstacle data ?

Finally, any idea who owns the 2 Citation Excels parked at Arabasco?

Thanks for the info.

Mutt

StressFree

13th Feb 2001, 16:14

Mutt,
Boeing dont seem to have many ideas about a permanent flight deck installation of the BLT. At the moment we are having to set it up each time its needed, this is at best a drag!!! Its run through a Dell laptop and an HP printer, do you know if it could be printed through the ACARS printer? Boeing promise that full certification for winglets will be done soon. At the moment we are only authorised for CAT 1 but really need CAT 3.
I've not heard about JAR problems with the wingtip lights, what is the problem?
Thanks a lot.

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'Keep the Stress Down'

mutt

13th Feb 2001, 17:00

StressFree,

I'll start this by saying I have nothing to do with any BBJ's.

As for the BLT, we were given one of the beta versions a number of years ago to play around with, there was talk of using the BLT computation module to supply our ACARS takeoff data. This however never got any further.

I dont know of anyway of connecting your computer output to the ACARS printer, once again you would run into certification problems. However, i would ask why do you need to print it out? As a private operator, are you obliged to keep a record? If so, why dont you just write down the pertinent data?

Fedex did succeed in installing a performance computer in their MD-11's, try having a look in one of those to get some ideas. However you will have problems getting the BLT program certified without the help of Boeing.

I hope that someone else will answer your other questions........

Mutt

[This message has been edited by mutt (edited 13 February 2001).]

StressFree

14th Feb 2001, 22:41

Mutt,
Thanks for your response. Even though we are a private operator we are obliged by the Bermuda DCA to operate to JAR Ops 1 standards and therefore have to have full record-keeping for all flights for audit purposes. As well as this we also have to leave a copy load-sheet at all points of departure. All a bit unnecessary I agree but at the moment unavoidable.
Cheers.

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'Keep the Stress Down'

Blended-winglets

15th Feb 2001, 23:47

OK, being so what is a BLT?

StressFree

16th Feb 2001, 00:07

Blended Winglets,
A BLT is the Boeing Laptop Tool. Its a performance, weight and balance, etc. computer that contains all the data for a BBJ as well as airfield data. It is a supreme piece of kit and a must for BBJ flying.

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'Keep the Stress Down'

Blended-winglets

16th Feb 2001, 00:13

Thanks Stress Free. Well the more I hear about the BBJ the more I just want to get my hands on one! Very envious.

Shanwick Shanwick

16th Feb 2001, 01:40

Stress Free et al,

It might be worth talking to someone at Jet Blue. I know they do all their flight planning, perf. data etc. by laptop and indeed have a totally paperless cockpit. From what I understand they don't have hard copies of any paperwork and download the plan/perf etc to base after each sector.

I know VS are looking at going down the same route.

Brgds

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Shanwick Shanwick

16th Feb 2001, 02:30

Some useful info perhaps?

---------------------------------------------

Jet Blue is a domestic airline based at JFK airport, New York. Currently they operate 11 A320 series aircraft with another 81 on order. They have been operating for just over a year.

From the start of operations, Jet Blue adopted a completely new and revolutionary method of operation. This highly original approach to the problems and execution of day-to-day flight operations makes the maximum use of “new technology” and minimum use [although not the elimination] of paper. It is corporate philosophy that prevails from the very top to the shop floor of the company including rostering/crewing, e-ticketing and maintenance.

First Impressions

Jet Blue is a highly professional, efficient, friendly and informal organisation. The offices are modern, clean, bright and tidy; the absence of piles of paper is most evident. To illustrate the informal ethic everyone wears a nametag with his or her Christian name in large bold type: the surname is barely readable. The personal issue laptops are partitioned to give space for the pilot’s own stuff and personalised set-ups are allowed; one pilot had a cartoon dog chasing his mouse pointer around the screen, another an Incredible Hulk screen saver. How would you personalise yours?

Rostering/Bidding/Crewing

The rostering/bidding system [supplied by US based NOVA] is available to the crew via the Internet. They can bid for trips/days off from home, on the road or from crew check-in using their personal laptop. They can also view a “master roster” displayed as a PDF file on the Internet.

Crewing functions, such as trip swaps, are not yet available on the Internet, although they have a working version soon to be activated. At present they use a sophisticated voicemail system that uses voice recognition for identification instead of PIN numbers.

Performance Planning

On each laptop is a copy of the performance program. This is easy to use and very sophisticated. It calculates take-off and landing performance figures based on pilot input [the Jet Blue SOP is for the F/O to do this and then for the data to be checked by the Captain] taking into account weather, windshear, runway surface condition, aircraft load and any MEL or CDL requirements. Once common data had been input it took just a few seconds to calculate all V speeds and flex/de-rates for ALL runways and intersections at JFK. It also provides a gross error check of fuel uplift, warns of illegal combinations from the MEL/CDL and works out C of G and other weight and balance problems. This system is as idiot proof as can be imagined, fully certified and not open to the errors sometimes encountered when interpolating. In real world operations it is often convenient for us to work out performance based on the worst case to cater for sudden requests from ATC to accept an intersection take-off or shorter runway. A genuine advantage with the Jet Blue system is that the program holds all the figures for all the approved runways and can be accessed in seconds ensuring that the most effective de-rate and V speeds are always employed. All calculations are saved to disk and downloaded back to the company next time the laptop is docked.

Flight Operations

I occupied a jump seat on a JFK – Burlington – JFK roundtrip. The only time I witnessed the Captain with a pen in his hand was when he signed the tech-log: Jet Blue are working on making this electronic too. I don’t think the F/O even had a pen! The only paper on the flight deck comprised of the refuelling chit, ACARS printout and the Jepps plates [again, they are working on producing the plates in an electronic format subject to FAA approval]. All the ACARS paper goes in the bin to be recycled once it has been read.

The planning and flight can be summarised as follows.

When the crew check-in they plug in or “dock” their laptops. This action, following a short login sequence, updates all the company manuals, delivers the days flight plans, weather [including satellite images] and NOTAMS. It also copies to them all company e-mail and uploads previously stored performance information back to the company. Crew notices arrive as an e-mail which they read and then reply to as a method of acknowledging receipt. The Jet Blue system architecture allows these actions to be performed at any outstation. The entire process takes a few minutes. The crew then go to the aircraft.

When they enter the flight deck a fairly lengthy ACARS print awaits them. This is essentially a copy of the plan, weather and NOTAMS already in their laptop plus load sheet data, special airport requirements, drift down info, ATIS, a crew list and any other free hand notes. From this printout the Captain types in the route and the F/O does the performance calculations. The whole thing takes a few minutes. The F/O does the walk-round and the Captain signs the tech log. Briefing is done in the normal way and they are ready to go.

Timings for off blocks, take-off, landing and on blocks, plus in-flight reports are all transmitted back to the company automatically by ACARS.

Jet Blue work to a 30 min turnaround. On the ground at Burlington the ACARS sent a complete record of the flight back to the company for filing and then delivered details of the next sector. The Captain typed this in and signed the tech log. The F/O completed the performance calculations, did the walk round and briefed the sector. All pre-flight actions were completed in less than 10 minutes.

Of note is that none of the aircraft carry any books. The library is carried on the pilot’s laptop and [provided they dock it at check-in] all the manuals are entirely up-to-date. Both pilots carry every single company manual, not just the 3 or 4 that we are issued with.

The entire operation was very efficient and stress free.

Conclusion

Jet Blue has a first-class and robust system built from the ground up to make the most of electronic communication technologies. The advantages over a paper-based system are obvious and compelling.

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hhhiiisssssccrrrraaaacckkkllesssshhhhhh

Bobby Johnson

7th Mar 2001, 11:16

I'm back folks after my first two months on duty and am now settling in for my one month off.
Shanwick, these guys you refer to certainly have put a lot of effort into the paperless operation.
Question: B4 I forget does anyone know who 'Canford Aviation' are? I was walking down the high street in Canford Cliffs and I couldnt believe my eyes, there was a corporate aviation shop in the high street with fractional ownership for a lear in the window for £150,000.

Well heres an update on how I'm finding the new job.
1.Im not having any problems with the permanent standby issue, it is definately one of the things I like about the job. It requires a greater understanding of the aircraft's operational ability, unlike BA where everything is calculated for you.
2. Negotiating with the family is a delicate issue at the moment as everyone gets used to the job, we were very used to palnning things based on my roster, thats the major loss.
3. There is little consideration for the commercial part of the operation. As long as the boss is happy then anything goes. We are lucky however as there is no pressure on us which makes the operation safer than most I suspect. If we say no then no it is with no repercussions.
4. Our operations team that run in the background are brilliant, how do you get a slot into LHR at 8.00am landing on 09R and leave an hour later.If you have a problem you phone them and they fix it. On the odd occasion they cant but hey they do a better job than Big Airways.
5. The biggest and most taxing problem is the difference between operating procedures. BA obviously operate bearing in mind a strict AOC operation and Cadets in right hand seat with as little as 200 hours(very demanding I assure you).That is what I am used to. I did however realise that this would change and that I would have to leave alot of the 'bull****' behind and take on a different outlook. Maybe I underestimated the challenge, I didnt just leave a scheduled airline AOC to go to a corporate AOC operation, but straight to a private operation which operates on its own. The operation up untill I joined was run by two americans and is now managed by a very capable brit, so all three of us are brits. We are in the throws of establishing a set of procedures that suit a private operation. However we all have different ideas. Something that I have noticed is that if you have been flying in the private sector for a long time then you are not constantly checked to make sure that you are oprtaing correctly and many bad habits can easiliy develop. Fortunately I have been flying the B737 for a long time and can maintain a basic level competancy until we establish some common procedures.
I have to say that the Boeing Ops Manual and Flight Crew Procedures contradict themselves on many occasions. It is not enough to fly with them alone.

Overall the job is great and over time this operation could be an extremly slick and professional one when we all fly from the same music sheet.

Any questions just post them, I will reply whenever I can however I'm off to Spain and the Maldives this month, things I could never have done with BA.

Got any questions

fokkerjet

8th Mar 2001, 01:41

Bobby Johnson.

Can you give me an idea what the total operating cost, per hour, of the BBJ is running? I have read that Twinjet is chartering their Airbus A319CJ for $9300/hr plus $3000/ per landing.Also what kind of Basic Operating Weight do you have?

Would anybody know what a Boeing 737-600,-700 or -800 might be, both weight and operating cost?

Thanks!

mutt

8th Mar 2001, 19:51

Bobby,

Thanks for continuing this topic. There are a number of questions that I would like to discuss.

Are you using an in-house ops department or a commercial one?

I don’t know too much about BA’s SOP’s, but the one that seems to create the most discussion is the idea of both pilots performing various stages of the landing. Is this a procedure that you are hoping to keep? What other procedures do you find strange?

It didn’t take you long to discover that Boeings philosophy is that they “build aircraft and don’t operate them”, their manuals therefore leave a lot to be desired. But I guess having to write things to satisfy the lawyers doesn’t help either.

The new size Boeing manuals are constructed with a program called Framemaker, if you are based where I believe you are, I know a couple of tech writers who might be able to edit your procedures manual for you for a small fee.

Glad to see that you are having fun, drop in for a beer sometime.

Mutt.

[email protected]

Bobby Johnson

9th Mar 2001, 13:49

Hi Guys,

Fokkerjet - Im sorry I cant give you this information and it would not be realistic in a charter operation. If the boss wants somethinghe gets it, cost is not always a priority. Im sure others may reply with better figures

Mutt - Beer sounds good send me an email and we'll get together.
We use a commercial company however they are linked in a way to us, they of course are very good.
With regard to BA SOP's and the monitored approach, this is not suitable at this time and is only used in normal operations to keep standrdisation to CAT II/III, so no I will not be suggesting this.
There are too many differences to list, suffice to say I will be rewriting the Ops Man in association with Boeing and will have to get them approved before use. It requires a lot of work and flying to get this right and would be nearly imposible to use a tech writer, but thanks anyway.

Keep the questions coming and I will try to answer them, please appreciate I cannot answer all of them, either because I dont know or I cant say.

Bobby Johnson

15th Apr 2001, 12:46

The transition from the B737-200/300/400/500 in BA to the BBJW in the Corporate World

Here’s an update on how its all going for those that are interested. Before you can fully appreciate the differences you need to understand what it was like in BA. I no longer work for them so it is a little more frank than you may have read before.

Operating the B737 in BA at Gatwick -

Where do I start? It is a huge company and you are just a number and a five letter code. Many people like this, as they remain transparent and feel they are safer in terms of the management not really knowing who you are. After all your job security is not really down to economic conditions, but more down to whether your face fits. If it doesn’t fit they will go out of the way to make it fit! If you don’t try then you are gone. Anyone with any sense will try to make it fit and most do. What it all means is that if you have any ideas or a way of operating that do not comply with the rules you are made to fit and their methods of doing so can be very painful. There are some very good points about BA that are very often overlooked and sometimes misinterpreted. Many of you will have heard that BA consider Captains as senior managers and put more emphasis on managing a flight rather than the actual flying skills required of you to operate the aircraft. Until you actually try this method you cannot judge it. It really does work. It is probably more appropriate on the more senior fleets in BA where the Co-pilot has plenty of experience, however at Gatwick this is not the case and requires both, it is vital to manage and have a very ‘open and honest’ approach to the flight and have some very good flying skills as the Co-pilots have little experience and if they are not briefed well will lead you down a dead end where you will have to recover from the situation. If this sort of thing happens then the SESMA reporting system sends the flight information directly back to the company, at which point you are invited in for ‘Coffee, Tea No Biscuits’. Well that’s what it feels like. In reality these interviews are handled very well IF you have a good manager as we had at Gatwick (The present Chief Pilot). If you have made a major **** up and you are totally up front and honest they will go out of the way to support you. If you try to cover it up then I can only imagine you would feel the full wrath of BA. The most common conclusion to these interviews comes down to adherence of SOP’s and the cause is mostly due to a lack of briefings. A lot of the time you are very tired because of the early morning starts and the number of sectors you are required to fly (I know its not as bad as British Midland!!) and complacency sets in. You have to try very hard not to let this happen. The bottom line to all this is to have concrete SOP’s and to manage the flight effectively through an open and honest manner with comprehensive briefings so everyone connected to the flight you are doing knows exactly what you are doing.

The Transition -

My last flight with BA was to GOA, the weather was CAVOK and the temptation to drop the gear and do a visual approach was high, however I resisted the temptation for a number of reasons, firstly I hadn’t done this sort of thing on a regular basis since the Dan Air days. Secondly I would have left the Co-pilot cold and way behind the aircraft in effect flying it single pilot. Thirdly it would not have been very sensible and if there had been an emergency during the manoeuvre I would not have had the spare capacity to manage the situation correctly.
I started the new job on the 1st of January 2001 and went into the simulator for two days to convert to the 737-700 flight deck. The major difference here was that apart from the LPC requirements it was up to me what I wanted to do. Great! I learnt so much from the instructor in a short time. On the second day I was in the sim at 0600 and came out at 1000, tired as you can imagine. At this point the first indication of what it was going to be like reared its head. The Chief Pilot phoned me at 1030 and said “ Everything OK?” “ Yep all done” I said “ Great, can you get on a flight down to Marrakech via Casablanca ready to take over”. Well that’s what I did and ended up in Marrakech at about 2300 to meet everyone. The other pilot went home for a well deserved rest and the next day was supposed to be a discussion on how they operate their aircraft, when all of a sudden we were called out to fly Marrakech to Agadir. Well it was a 15 min sector, Jeppesen charts I hadn’t seen since I was 22 years old and Boeing procedures and Checklist with a bit of “well we don’t do it that way we do it this way”. My 14 years on the 737 helped a lot!! I flew with the Chief Pilot, he has a lot of experience in the corporate world and having flown with many Captains over the years was a very capable one.

The next few months was a case of trying to come up with some procedures that we would all be happy with. It was a very steep learning curve!!!

We are now settled into some very good procedures taken from BA and the Corporate World. The combination of the two has provided us with a very efficient safe operation that works. It does not cater for the inexperienced Co-Pilot and a lot of the things that are not appropriate to our operation from the Boeing Checklist such as Papers Aboard have been taken out. These procedures have been devised for the private operator and not the AOC holder. If anyone is interested in these procedures let me know.

Well that’s it so far, my next missive will be on the operational side of the BBJ and how it performs. If you find all this very boring let me know and we will close the thread.

All the best

Bobby Johnson

Bobby Johnson

15th Apr 2001, 13:39

What about the BBJ?

Well since I have been flying the BBJ I have learnt more about the commercial side of the 737 than I ever did in BA, which is one of the reasons why I left. I wanted to learn more about the management of the aircraft having spent so long flying one. If you already fly the BBJ then skip this article it is aimed at those that either want to fly it or buy it. If you do fly it and my information is incorrect then do let me know, Im still learning.

Boeing seem to have come a cross a winner in the BBJ. They set up a separate division to deal with the corporate market, but how could they fail? The BBJ is made up of the wing, undercarriage and engines of the 737-800 with the shorter fuselage of the 737-700 giving the customer a long-range business jet with three times the cabin volume of its smaller competitors, but nearly the same capital and operating costs.
The cost of this aircraft is in the same ball park as the Global and the GV. Why is this? Boeing have made in excess of 3000 737’s, their unit costs on the 737 are low. I understand that the certification of the BBJ took 1 month and 50 hrs flying. An example is that of a windscreen. A BBJ windscreen costs about $7000 as opposed to a learjet windscreen $22000. Whilst Boeing have tried the Corporate market before they have now decided to set up Boeing Business Jets to focus on the Corporate Owner.

It must be said that the BBJ was designed for long haul operations with a wide variety of fuel tank configurations. A compromise with maximum range and baggage capacity is required. With the maximum number of fuel tanks leaves little space for the bags, if you have an owner that takes his house with him on a world trip!

The aircraft normally cruises at high takeoff weights the aircraft normally cruises at 0.79M at FL370 with about 25-2600 lbs per hour per engine reducing to about 2000lbs per hour towards the end of the flight, so flight planning is easy at 5000lbs per hour after a climb to FL 410 its maximum operating altitude.
Watch out on short sectors into small airfields, make sure the runway can cope with the weight because generally the aircraft can cope with the length.

With the introduction of the trendy winglets this means with a max takeoff of 171,000 lbs the aircraft should achieve 6200nm with the eight tank configuration. We had the winglets fitted at Boeing Wichita. The give an aerodynamic performance inprovement of 6% meaning we can climb earlier by about 2000ft giving us more time at altitude hence saving more fuel. It has been difficult to appraise the fuel savings as we do not do anywhere near the number of sectors as an airline operation, but at a cost of $2M it will take some time to recoup the cost, unless of course you are going to sell it when you would recoup the cost in the sale. I doubt you would be able to sell one easiliy without them.

From rough calculations it would appear that the fuel costs are about 35% more than the Global and the GV and with the winglets about 30% more, but that is only a guess.

I’m new at prices as in BA I just used to fly them, however I understand a Green BBJ costs something like $35M and the interior costs anything from $10M -$20M and this is not carried out by Boeing but by about six third party companies, of which I have a list if you need them. I’m not surprised Boeing contracts this out, there are more problems with the cabin than the aircraft, which is extremely reliable considering they are not flown very much.

In short it’s a great aircraft and a dream to fly, better than the old –200’s I used to fly and better performance than the –400’s. After all there are not many aircraft that can go direct to Jeddah from Lasham using all the obstacle data!

If any of my information is incorrect please let me know, when I have time I will produce a website dedicated to the BBJ with forums, technical, performance and anything else you want to see.

Regards

Bobby Johnson

Ps I will soon be a sim instructor, you never know I might need it someday!!

Capt Chambo

15th Apr 2001, 13:52

Bobby please keep this thread going, as I for one, find it very interesting.

I too, very nearly went into the corporate world after 10 years on the Boeing 737, but the job offer was based on the BBJ arriving sometime in the future. I wasn't brave enough to leave my job at the time, as I have had similar promises only to find the aircraft never arrive. Well in the case of that job offer the BBJ's did come, and now I spend a little time wondering "what if ....."

Anyway please keep the thread going I am enjoying it.

Bobby Johnson

15th Apr 2001, 13:59

Its easy to complain in the job you have, you must be very sure if you are going to leave. I was lucky, the aircraft and operation was established and the guys I work with are great and very understanding of my situation (having left BA). There are some terrible jobs out there, I think I have one of the best, however I havnt flown with anyone else, but Im happy with my decision.

Kevin Cleaver

15th Apr 2001, 16:52

As a mere passenger thanks to all for an interesting insight into Corporate Ops.

Bobby, perhaps eventually you'll follow Stan Stewarts example and write us a book on flying the Exec Jets

noax2grind

17th Apr 2001, 13:34

Wow! Where did all of this come from!
I didnt know there were so many BBJ drivers talking here.
I am about to leave a job flying them. Couldnt put up with the politics and bull....
very keen to continue but as you know these jobs dont come up every day.
Trying to convince myself that EZY will be nice and stable etc but not sure I really want to go back to that sort of thing after 8 years flying large private a/c (727,707, 737)
If anyone knows of any jobs going please drop me an e-mail c/o PPRune (see profile).
I`ve got 13000 hrs/5500+pic and mid east VIP experience.
Thanks

StressFree

17th Apr 2001, 14:25

NoAx,
Yep there are quite a few BBJ drivers around these days, I'm really enjoying flying our 2 Boeings, not so sure about the firm though...
Just to get the facts straight are you looking for another private job or are you joining EZY?

------------------
'Keep the Stress Down'

LAVDUMPER

17th Apr 2001, 18:42

Noax2grind,

I understand that Ryanair is hiring quite a few pilots onto its 737-800 fleet. Although some of the threads on these forums have not been "pro-Ryanair," its growth is encouraging. The transition would be easy for you I am sure.

Do you think you would miss the global flying opportunitites inherent in a BBJ flying position? Or would you prefer regional flying?

Cheers

noax2grind

17th Apr 2001, 23:45

LavD & Stress,
hi, truth is leaving this job for a number of reasons including domestic. returning to Uk and telling myself that working for EZY or Ryan will be `nice and settled` with roster etc but truth is my heart is still in the VIP op.I would take another private job tomorrow,
ready to start mid May!!!
Danger is that the very stability I`m trying to be enthusiastic about is what may well drive me nuts!!!
Who knows.... watch this space.
At the end of the day we all have to put a crust on the table!
But I will be at EBACE, probably thursday.
Cheers for now.
p.s. what a pleasure it is to share some space on PPRune without the usual bitching, conceits & petty griping!

[This message has been edited by noax2grind (edited 17 April 2001).]

noax2grind

18th Apr 2001, 00:10

Stress, and others in the same boat.
We too had the `load sheet` dillema. I know one operator who was downloading the BLT onto a floppy and chucking it out of the window!
Boeing were working on improving BLT2 to provide a printable loadsheet, but as you point out, its bad enough balancing the laptop on top of your lap!!! without ahving to hook up a printer! And all of this as the principal pax arrives with yet another shed load of bags!!
We got round it by (tiresome as it may seem!) having a small load form/weight and balance record that we wrote out from the BLT (after a double check by the other pilot). The reverse of one copy of this then becomes a `bug card`. So much for the paperless cockpit! and first reaction is rebellion but it is surprising how quickly we get used to things.
I remember the old days of two fuel loads:
Full wings or full tanks!! multiply the no. of pax by 100kgs and the bags depended on which Sheikha was travelling and whether it was post or pre European shopping!!!!(but then we had the problem of finding a fag packet!!!!)
Cheers!!

185 Lbs of Ballast!!

18th Apr 2001, 15:17

Noax2grind,
I also opperate the BBJ from the UK! Seems there's quite a few of us about. The company your leaving, is it Middle East based or closer to EBACE?!

Bobby Johnson

19th Apr 2001, 10:41

Does anyone know of any good roster or leave planning software

noax2grind

19th Apr 2001, 19:33

Ballast, hi.... a bit closer to EBACE!
I take it you are with Ford? Any vacancies for not too crusty captains with a sense of humour!!

Bobby j, unless you are operating an airline and by the sounds of it your not, in my experience on private ops the best way is to sort it out between you amicably!

ps the general impression I got from EBACE myself and from others was that it was rather beter than anticipated!

26point2

19th Apr 2001, 22:56

Hi Noaxe2grind,
Yet another BBJ jockey following Bobby Js story. I can't really comment on forthcoming positions at Ford but if they take on a direct entry captain, I will have an Axe2grind, commands are dead mans shoes at Ford and there is a queue forming. I'm sure that you wouldn't feel happy in the right hand seat after all your 13000 hours and all.. No harm in taking a look though eh.
I'm suprised that you expect to get away from the politics by moving jobs,surely only a change of career can help there. I really don't mean to be cynical, but the grass always looks greener and all that. Surely it can't be so bad that you are seriously looking at Ezy..You'll have to work for a living ...bit of a culture shock surely!

ps. I love the idea of throwing the floppy out of the window!!..Excellent!

Good luck with the job hunting.

------------------
Keep on running.

26point2

20th Apr 2001, 00:38

Noax2grind,
I just found a post under Rumours and News..about 30 posts down (as of 21.35)titled
"Easy,Good or Bad?"..Makes interesting reading...Regards, 26.2

------------------
Keep on running.

185 Lbs of Ballast!!

20th Apr 2001, 00:44

noaxe2grind - Hmm! They don't take direct entry Captains or do they? who knows, changes with the runway direction! Rather a lot of politics though, and only 3 destinations - might be a bit of a culture shock!

I would love to hear some more about your reasons for moving on, e-mail me if you want to keep it hush hush.

Cheers

185.

Fly Better!

20th Apr 2001, 01:47

DONT DO IT! Bobby Johnson

Im trying to get out of corporate flying. Most outfits are understaffed and you will end up away from home all of the time, unless that is what you want? The folk you fly very often treat you like crap, although there are one or two I fly for who are real Gentlemen.

Someone once said to me its not the aircraft that makes the job its the company you work for. Just becasue its a nice shiny new aircraft and the job looks cool now when you havent been home for 3 weeks and you are eating in your hotel room food you cook yourself on a camping stove because the food you ate here last time nearly killed you you will be wishing you were back at BA.

Or it could be the fact that the person you are flying for couldnt be bothered to ring you up to say he will be late and your slot has expired and he turns up and you now have a 4 hour delay and he isnt happy. Or perhaps its just the limo. you ordered for them didnt show up.

Anyhow welcome to corporate / air taxi flying and good luck!

[This message has been edited by Fly Better! (edited 19 April 2001).]

Fly Better!

20th Apr 2001, 02:01

I see I was too late :)

I only just read all the other posts between the first one and this one, sorry :)
Bobby Johnson with regard to the website tehre is already a site with a chat room set up run by a biz pilot who I met whilst I was in the US (hes English)

www.aeroweb.co.uk (http://www.aeroweb.co.uk) & www.pilot-talk.co.uk (http://www.pilot-talk.co.uk)

Bobby Johnson

20th Apr 2001, 12:58

IVE DONE IT

and I dont regret it. You are right about being away, but I get shed loads of time off. Some people just dont realise that on the 737 at LGW you only get a maximum of 9 days of each month and then only in two day blocks. In between that you are away all the time and have to get up at 04:00 am everyday. After 13 years that gets a bit weary.
I realise there are some crap jobs out there, but I wouldnt have left BA for one of those. I do work on a shiny new aircraft and the guys I work with are great and the boss does think about us. When he doesnt need us he lets us go home in his aircraft! Cant be many jobs like that. I do however realise that all this may change however you have to take some risks in life or you could waste your whole life, and that certainly happens in BA.

Fly Better!

20th Apr 2001, 14:47

:) I guess your right, I am just getting bitter and twisted because I'm freelance with not a lot of work on at the minute and a the grass is always greener ;)

Any chance of a job on the BBJ?

fokkerjet

21st Apr 2001, 22:44

Bobby,

What is Boeing saying about the B737 center fuel tank explosion that happen a couple of months back? The NTSB had said that the aircraft had been on the ground for 40 minutes with air being supplied by the PAC's when the explosion occurred and also said that the center fuel tank sits above them. I know your extra fuel tanks sit inside the forward and aft baggage compartments and those tanks probably aren't at risk, but in corporate flying, sitting on the ground for extended periods of time with the APU running and providing AC is not uncommon, and this must be of some concern to Boeing!

exeng

22nd Apr 2001, 03:59

Bobby,

I last chatted to you just before you left. I'm really pleased it is going so well. (And I'm really envious, it sounds like you are having a great time!)

The situation has changed now at LGW in that your statement <Some people just dont realise that on the 737 at LGW you only get a maximum of 9 days of each month and then only in two day blocks. In between that you are away all the time and have to get up at 04:00 am everyday> is not now valid. There is now more 'guaranteed' time off, but frankly it still not an acceptable lifestyle.

I'm off 'up the road' to another fleet now but I will watch your progress with interest.

Hope it continues to go well.

Regards
Exeng

StressFree

22nd Apr 2001, 13:11

Fokkerjet,
You are absolutely right about waiting for hours on the ground with the APU running and the packs on for A/C. When Boeing were with us recently after we took delivery of our 2 BBJ's they actively encouraged us to leave the APU on for ages (sometimes 5 hours)with A/C on. If this was a factor in the explosion of the center tank then clearly there are implications for all of us that follow the same practice.

------------------
'Keep the Stress Down'

fokkerjet

22nd Apr 2001, 17:12

Stress,

I guess with 2 known center tank explosions out of 3000+ B737's, Boeing may not think there's a problem. I do hope they look into it though, since the corporate world would probably be at greatest risk since we sit for such long time with the APU running.

Also Stress, I was emailing a pilot from BMI about my beloved Fokker, and he talked about being able to "declare" a reduced takeoff weight on the Fokker with Brussels. This reduced weight translated into reduced airways and airport fees and saved them lots of money. I don't know what kind of weights you operate at, but I bet you don't come close to the 171,000 lbs. If you were to limit your weight somewhat, could you save some big money?

Oceanic

27th Apr 2001, 01:41

Stress & Fokker

With regards to the two known centre tank explosions, I believe that in both cases the tank had run dry and that the centre fuel pumps were not switched off. We operate a Middle East based BBJ wirth plenty of APU hrs and in discussion with the regions tech rep it is suggested to avoid running the pumps for any time when dry. Also preserves the pumps life.

Bobby Johnson

6th May 2001, 15:36

Hi folks,
Any of you that are into the BBJ Ive started building a new website called www.thebbj.com (http://www.thebbj.com)
Its in the early stages but has a forum if you want to continue the above discussion, with specifics about the BBJ.

www.thebbj.com (http://www.thebbj.com)

gaunty

7th May 2001, 13:54

Bobby Johnson
Fantastic site, well done.

Red Spitfire Driver

17th May 2001, 15:47

Hi Bobby -
You said to say hello - so I did - 120.52 on 16th may - is that you back for a month? Or are you off to the sunshine again. Are you still enjoying the work ?? Get to borrow the aircraft for the weekend ??

Cheers

Bobby Johnson

18th May 2001, 16:41

Thanks Red Spitfire Driver for your help, you probably realised that the BBJ does not descend very well. Thanks again, we are now in the states soaking up the sun! I am really enjoying all this it was a great move.

Stonka

18th May 2001, 19:36

nic eone squire. Enjoying the Florida sunshine. I'm off to frazzle & beer in Uganda tonight. Great website!

Bobby Johnson

7th Jun 2001, 01:41

Well a quick update on how its all going if any of you are still interested.
I think it is all starting to soak in now, I didnt realise how much you have to do in the corporate world, there is little or no support and it is all up to you.
I never thought I would have to do a 18 hour day, however I didnt realise that you get to lie in the sun before and after the flight and have some kip on the flight as well. It certainly Suits me Sir!
The organisation remains a mystery but it all seems to work without any hickups but I think it may only come about through crisis management. Forward planning seems to be nil primarily because you dont know what you are doing the next day. However once you get used to this it is great, it beats the total boredom you get at BA and other airlines (Dan Air incase any of you thought that I only worked for BA).
Anyway the overall verdict is a big thumbs up, Ive finally got involved in something I like and can influence if I want to. Mostly I sit back and enjoy it!
This job would certainly not suit those in BA that want to fly by the book because they cant without one! Sorry Chaps

Flanker

7th Jun 2001, 02:39

B J

mmmmmm!!

I'll operate by the book thanks.I have seen the other side and did not like it,I thought it was gash and would not be a part of it.

Having said that with good experience on type it would be a more comfortable proposition.

(Reborn 13 year airline pilot not yet smug enough to be bored).

Bobby Johnson

7th Jun 2001, 11:06

Flanker
I am aware that some or alot of the private or corporate world are gash, and yes compared with the airline world some of what we do may appear to be gash, but operating to the confines of an airline operation (that has to cater for the 200 hour copilot) does not fit into the private operation. The whole thing changes when you have pilots that do not have less than 10000 hours each.
The great thing about where I work everyone is aiming for a very slick and professional operation and this can not be done overnight as ther is little support and WE have to do it all.
Smug, may be I am, I am just enjoying myself for the first time in years.

Flanker

7th Jun 2001, 17:14

BJ

Glad to hear you're enjoying it.

I too would have been much happier on a Boeing in that environment than I was on a new type with effectively no SOP's.10000hr plus guys are very valuable commodities if they have the discipline and knowledge to go with the experience.

If you are being given the resources to sort things out by yourself I should think it would be quite a lot of fun.

Go on then be a bit smug :)

Bobby Johnson

22nd Jul 2001, 09:54

Back again sorry it takes so long to reply to these posts, in BA you have loads of time to spend at the PC as everything else is done for you and all you do is turn up to work and fly then go home. This suits many of those at BA, it didnt suit me.

On that subject, there are many people in BA with vast amounts of knowledge, but that knowledge is not filtered through to the top. The reason for that is that you can only get the information through a middle manager type, this is then normally binned because they didnt come up with the idea. To get your idea through you need to become a manager and to do that you need to go through interviews and and need to sign your life away working weekends and all your days off.

In this new world I have entered you are already the middle management and everyone listens and if it sounds good then it gets done.

Here's a few things for discussion.

After Sales Support
Please let me know if all you other BBJ operator/owners have the same problem. When the BBJ comes out of Boeing the support just stops.

1. The AOG desk is no good, we use Trade-Air as they get the parts to us when we need them not when Boeing can get around to getting them to us.
2. When we want something changed on the aircraft that is different from the delivery status ie changing from track up to heading up they immediately start talking about paying extra ($15000+). Surely if you have paid this sort of money for an aircraft it should come as part of the warranty.
3.When Boeing suggest an approved outfitters they should carry out some sort of quality assurance, not approve companies that take 2 years to get it outfitted from green to flyable. This then reduces your effective warranty from 5 years to 3 years.

Owner Hassle
It seems amazing to me that the people that own these aircraft have to put up with so much day to day hassle from third party suppliers. Why is there not a support company that looks after their interest so that the owner only has to talk to one company that then deals with the suppliers. What do I mean by a support company?
If you had a company that dealt with the Sales companies, the maintenance companies, the crew training, insurance and the whole lot and reported to the owner every six months, the owner would then be left to enjoy his aircraft, and not get involved in the everyday wrangling of the support companies. I know there are 'management type companies' hwever they charge lots of cash to the owners. Why not make it free for the owners and charge the suppliers a small percentage. This percentage being made available to the owners to ensure their trust in the business.

You guys will know alot more about this than I what are your comments?

As for my progress, as you can see I am on a steep learning curve. We now have some great flightdeck procedures, these finally became a combination of what I learnt at BA and what I learnt from the other pilots. It was a great two way flow of information. There were a few sticky points but we all feal that we now have a great checklist and SOP's that have increased the safety and efficiency ofthe operation, now its time to look at the efficiency of the whole operation.

What else do you want to know?

Please remember, I respect the privacy of the owner and cannot comment on certain subjects.

Best Regards
Bobby