Spanish ATC [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Earthmover

19th May 2007, 13:22

Well .. whilst I hate the routine jingoistic 'bashing' of foreign ATC, which assumes an odious air of natural superiority from us in Northern Europe, I do have repetitive experiences breathtakingly bizarre controlling at one major Iberian airport.

The latest one was when we were told to reduce speed to 190kts. We told them on base leg we would need to reduce further. Plate says 160 to 4 on final, and we were in a heavy 757 with a tailwind on the approach (at this airport they never seem to take the wind aloft into account) calm on the RW. A cheerful "Roger" was the reply. Started to reduce to 160 to meet their own published speed control and at 6 miles we were told to increase speed to 190 again!

Huh??? ... beg pardon?? Anyone heard of stabilisation criteria? I mean, when they ask you to maintain 190 downwind, do they seriously expect us maintain that speed to touch down ????!!!!

Bomber Harris

19th May 2007, 15:18

ATC Watcher says "Give us locations and more details to anwer."
No offence, but I really did laugh at that comment. Thats like something a powerful proactive senior airline manager would say before he "kicks ass".
I have never whined about ATC on pprune before but I have:
1. Filled out 4 SAIR's in the last 12 months detailing some SERIOUS safety issues and incidents
2. Filled out a non flight specific report to our management about the general state of ATC in the area and its non compatibilty with standard procedures and best practices.
3. Made "acquaintences" with an ATCO in spain, flew down on my day off, went to dinner with him him and we swapped info about problems (two proffessionals going behind backs of management to fix things from bottom up, which is i guess not very proffesional :) ) and then made recommendations to our chief pilot based on my new knowledge, some of which is now in force.
Overall it is still a shambles there. I NOW FEEL I HAVE THE RIGHT TO WHINE ON AN INTERNET FORUM SO DONT PICK ON ME!!!
Genuinly nothing personal ATC watcher, but you did make your comment sound like that reporting the problem over pprune to you will have more of an affect to change things, rather than my previous course of action. I know you most likely didn't mean it that way....it's just my cynical mind :confused:

TE RANGI

19th May 2007, 16:10

I told you so.

Spanish ATC was recently discussed on this thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=262528

AltFlaps

19th May 2007, 16:14

I agree. Spanish ATC is shocking !!

I work for a LoCo 737 brigade, and fly to all the usual suspects about 4 times week. Spanish ATC is without question the worst in Europe.

Without TCAS, moving map displays and terrain overlays, I would have serious concerns about operating in Spain at all. We are regularly given descent clearance below MSA in IMC.

I only started operating in Spain about 3 years ago (having spent several years flying just abouy everywhere else in Europe), so the contrast was all the more shocking.
One of the things I noticed immediately, was that UK pilots seemed to talk a lot (on frequency) about their positions and speeds. It became apparent rather quickly, that this was to keep other traffic informed when things get bad with ATC (which is very common).

I reckon you could file a couple of ASRs on just about every sector which involves departure or arrival at a Spanish airport (especially in the south).

Spanish pilots are concerned about it as well ... I seem to remember some call to action amongst Spanish pilots about 18 months on this very forum.

I appreciate the reasons are complex - but I hope they sort it out before it ends in tears AGAIN

Rainboe

19th May 2007, 16:44

and then made recommendations to our chief pilot based on my new knowledge, some of which is now in force....

Bomber H, why not share these suggestions here?

Love_joy

19th May 2007, 18:12

I have had some interesting situations in Spanish airspace. However, I fly in Spain everyday in the Seville/Madrid area and the controllers here do an awesome job - even when swamped with hundreds of training VFR flights.
I don't doubt that they could do things better, but in this region they do a good job.

niknak

19th May 2007, 18:54

File a MOR to the CAA every time you have an incident of a similar nature.

I know that some airlines prefer pilots to file their own Company safety Reports, but you can file directly to the CAA in complete confidence.

If enough of you do this, if nothing else the ineviatble resultant media coverage would force the Spanish Politicians and then their CAA to take steps to resolve the problem.

A few cancelled holidays always makes the tourist resorts wake up to reality.

AltFlaps

19th May 2007, 19:35

niknak,

Great suggestion ... I have filed dozens of MORs over the years, AND NOTHING EVER HAPPENS !!!

If I filed an MOR everytime something happened (by which I mean anything reportable under CAP382 The Mandatory Occurance Reporting Scheme), then I would be spending a significant amount of time after EVERY Spanish trip filing paperwork.

We all know that Spanish ATC is a big issue. The UK CAA knows that Spanish ATC is a big issue. JAR, EASA and ICAO all know that Spanish ATC is a big problem .... BUT NOBODY IS DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT !!!!!!!!

fat_jimmy

19th May 2007, 20:14

What about the French,as soon as you check in "turn right 20 degrees" for no apparent reason or turn to a waypoint the other side of France due military activity on a Sunday afternoon - they must have the best trained airforce in the world!!!, and god help you if there is an Air France in the same sector:ugh::ugh::ugh::mad:

Beavis and Butthead

19th May 2007, 21:40

Encountered a VOR failure at one of the above listed Spanish airports. Controller just kept clearing us for the VOR approach as he didn't understand us telling him the VOR was u/s. Eventually he seemed to grasp the idea and cleared us for the VOR procedure on the reciprocal runway ...... which uses the same VOR :ugh:

To balance the issue a bit though, some of the airports in Spain seem ok to me. I've always found Malaga to be reasonable.

F4F

19th May 2007, 21:46

Flying quite often to Spanish destinations, gotta say it is no worse than say Italy, sometimes French (talk first, engage brain afterwards...), Greece and so on. The list is long!

Geez, I guess another good reason to have pilots on board, thinking souls :E

F4F

19th May 2007, 21:48

... and when will EASA finally put an end to non-English R/T, please :ugh:

Spitoon

19th May 2007, 22:09

... and when will EASA finally put an end to non-English R/T, please Maybe when they have some responsibility for regulating ATC.......

Flying Torquewrench

20th May 2007, 01:10

Sorry guy's, I was reading the thread that TE RANGI post #10 reffered to and i was getting a bit pissed off with some of the posts.

Or more with FACTO's response that it is all in our heads that Spanish carriers get a preferential treatment. I do hope he reads this thread also because i have proof that it's not in our head. As most of you probably agree on.

Facto,

I am really sorry but its not all in our head that Spanish carriers get a preferential treatment. And if you don't believe me than please read the following example:

Not so song ago the following happened in Alicante. Two aircraft parked on the ramp, an Iberia and ourselves. We were ready for push and start while the Iberia has its cargo doors open, airbridge attached and no push back truck. We request push and start in English. Controller responds with 'standby' and than starts talking in Spanish to the Iberia aircraft. Asking him how long it will take to be ready for push and start. Iberia responds (in Spanish) that it will take them at least 3 to 5 minutes before ready for push and start. Controller calls us and tells us to hold push and start as the Iberia aircraft is number one for push and start.

Unfortunately for this controller my collegue on the flightdeck does speak Spanish. So he told the controller in Spanish that we were ready for push and start now. The controller than apologised and push/start clearance was given. When we lined up for take-off the Iberia aircraft was still on stand!!

So please don't come on this forum to tell all of us thats it in our heads :mad:

Sorry for being off-topic. :=

FOUR REDS

20th May 2007, 09:13

About 35 years ago Flight Intl published my letter on this very subject. Since then nothing has changed and nothing will change.

I now anticipate these cockups, listen to other a/c and try to get a mental picture of what is going on and adapt our flying accordingly. Makes me chuckle every time.

Filing reports there or at home does not resolve the issues; it only shows authorities what compliant crews we are.

Soon I shall be retiring there and will be travelling with some of you to and fro. Please remain alert. Thanks in advance.

Permafrost_ATPL

20th May 2007, 09:28

Worth double-checking every descent clearance on the minimum altitude chart while on radar vectors. Been given lower twice in the last 4 months on approach to AGP. They didn't seem to understand why I was not pleased about it either. :ugh:

P

Flying Guy

20th May 2007, 10:48

Reading this thread I was reminded of my experience with Spanish ATC about 6 months ago. Did some trips from Madrid to Tenerife and back. And yes, I agree, the ATC there was pretty poor. And it was downright annoying that most of the time they were speaking in Spanish during busy approach time into the airport.

But the most interesting thing to me was the published missed approach procedures for Madrid. I can't remember the specific one but it was for a landing to the north and I defy any human (non FMS) to actually fly it, LOL.

The taxi routes in Madrid are also a mind twister - maybe I am just getting too old.

ComJam

20th May 2007, 17:28

Flying Guy:

If you do find any procedures that you feel are un-flyable please report it to air traffic and get your company to report it to Aena, there are some really poor procedures around.

As for Madrid's taxi pattern it's no worse than a lot of major airports, what makes it so much harder is the lack of clear instructions from ATC and the fact that so much of it is done in Spanish. :ugh:

INSIDEVIEW

20th May 2007, 17:48

Madrids taxiways are in my eyes a big pain.....

Anything else ATC wise ...well everything is there from worse in zaragoza to fantastic in Vigo....

And yes i think its not safe to still speak spanish on the frequency ..specially around big airports like madrid...

Just my opinion .....

Arrowhead

21st May 2007, 01:48

I have two points to add.

First, at least this proves to the management that pilots still have value

Second, try coming to China.
-One or two RAs per pilot per year is the norm
-90 degree vectors onto final are not uncommon
-Frequent banter in Chinese on 121.5
-Being told to hold short, and watch local aircraft take an intersection departure right in front of you
-being told to hold en-route for 2 hours (ie go back)
-being told to descend to FL157 250 miles from destination
-the controllers only understand standard ICAO words, making non-standard situations impossible to communicate (either way)
-and my favourite, the Korean junior controllers that cannot actually say some numbers:sad:

At least we dont get vectored into the mountains anymore.:D

That's not saying the situation in Spain is acceptable. Its just normal in other parts of the world

threemiles

21st May 2007, 07:53

Spanish conversation always starts with the pilot calling in in Spanish. It is not the controller who selects a language. Once all your pilot collegues had the same awareness as here they would not use Spanish. Start there, too.

Yabaduu

21st May 2007, 07:58

We all know that ATC in Spain is not the best. However, ATC in Italy is 100 times worst, and the greek one is 100 times worst than the Italian, and so on.

But, I might add that I have had two investigated ASR's down to aircraft separation. One of them made it onto to the local newspaper. The separation between aircraft got to 300' one was descending and my one climbing. Both reports concluded it was down to ATC error. Where did they occur? The light one was between Carlile and Newcastle. The serious one was between Southampton and Compton. Both on UK airspace, in English language and English ATC.:ouch:

Regarding ATC giving priority to the Spanish airlines well it is true for the most part. Funnilly enough over in Madrid they are pretty good at it. I have seen, quite a few times, Iberia, Spanair and Air Europa holding for me. Nevertheless, in Malaga or Alicante is ussually the opposite. Almeria is a world o their own.:(

andrijander

21st May 2007, 08:03

Hi there,
being spanish and an atco -but not working in spain, so lower your guns and save some ammo for later- would like to share some with you. The first and I think very important thing to know is that it's not all AENA in Spain -this is so you know where to shoot- as some airports are actually military airfields open to civilian traffic. Now, the guys in green have been getting the same level of frustration as you guys do as they have been saying for a good while things ain't right and nobody seems to listen. Reason being AENA spends good money for their services but, being them low in the ranks, they see none of it -neither training, personnel nor equipment. Also they cannot get union-ised as it is against the spanish constitution and therefore ilegal -because they hold guns they're not allowed any kind of political tools-. So they have very little to do against all of it but to swallow and pray. This, of course, has nothing to do with the major international airports and most of the small ones but there are quite a few who are in this situation. If you need to check you'll know where to look.
I don't know that many atco's from down there myself but the ones I have met try to keep good standards -again I can only take their word-. But as mentioned before the service there may be as good/bad as in many other places around the globe. I am not trying to give anybody any kind of slack here, but quite recently EUROCONTROL published last year's performance report for european ATSP's. Here's an insight on how the study was made and how to better do it in the future -if anybody cares- http://www.eurocontrol.int/care-innov/gallery/content/public/docs/projects2002/ircs/ircs-wp7finalreport.pdf . The report itself http://www.eurocontrol.int/prc/gallery/content/public/Docs/PRR_2006.pdf .
Now it doesn't addres specifically any country in regards of safety but it asesses safety as a whole european matter(chapter 3 of the document, page 29 onwards). The only thing it does reflect at a national level is the fact that the legislation is not up to date and neither is the culture but just as many other countries. For those of you who think reporting goes to waste this is the living proof that it does get somewhere -the lack of specifics in the report is intentional in accordance with the just culture philosophy-. In fact the only specific about Spain and or its controllers that I have seen -didn't fully read it though- is the fact that the ratio between controller's salaries and traffic increase is unbalanced -thus affecting route charges. However charges still being lower than other european countries if you look in the bigger scope of things.
Anyway, in short, keep trying, keep reporting and making noise as one report will do nothing but ten or hundred will. And give specifics when you write them so the investigators can track down what's up and try and change it.
Safe flying,
A.
PD: pages 106 and 116 of the report may be of interest also.
Edited to add post data.

walkirie

21st May 2007, 10:48

A Spanish Civil Aviation Authority "wise man" decided about 3 months ago that the B737-800 and 900 meet the criteria to be treated as a heavy aircraft, and this brand new aircraft classification comes to light . On what scientific test this decision was taken is an information I am waiting to know.
could be some spanish company own decisions and rules that put pressure on the spanish authorities?

ComJam

21st May 2007, 11:28

Spanish conversation always starts with the pilot calling in in Spanish. It is not the controller who selects a language.
That's all very well. Nothing to stop the controller responding in English though!
Take the Netherlands as an example, ATC is of a very high standard, particularly around AMS. If a pilot does make a call in Dutch the response from ATC is always in English. However, we shouldn't single the Spanish out here, the French are bad for it as well. :rolleyes:

JW411

21st May 2007, 11:42

"Spanish conversation always starts with the pilot calling in Spanish. It is not the controller who selects the language".

This is complete rubbish I'm afraid. My last company used to fly subservices for a Spanish airline and we were required to use their callsign.

We always checked in using English but a hell of a lot of controllers always came back with a torrent of Spanish as soon as they heard the callsign.

It took me three attempts one day to get the lady on Ground in Madrid to talk to me in English. I finally got through to her by stating that I was a gringo and would she please use English.

That did the trick!

threemiles

21st May 2007, 11:55

This is complete rubbish I'm afraid. My last company used to fly subservices for a Spanish airline and we were required to use their callsign.

This may be rubbish for the current situation, but what do you think, how long it will last that even the last Spanish controllers would reply in English, if only all Spanish IFR pilots would speak English to them?

andrijander

21st May 2007, 13:58

Quote:
Spanish conversation always starts with the pilot calling in in Spanish. It is not the controller who selects a language.

That's all very well. Nothing to stop the controller responding in English though!

hi all again,

unfortunately I think it doesn't quite work like that. As I understand it -been told, so not 100% on it- if the pilot initiating the call uses spanish the controllers have to reply in spanish. Something to do with their legal rights. The dutch example is good but not legally acceptable as dutch is not ICAO accepted-thus better don't be caught using it or else (fill in with whatever would happen if any). Please remember that it is part of the rules and it is covered and agreed -from that chicago convention back in the day when ICAO itself was born, probably before most of us were born-. You don't like it go ahead but if you want to change it go to ICAO.

Letting aside the language debate (should/shouldn't, is/isn't) please focus in the name of the thread -is it unsafe to fly there or not? Prove when possible, please.

niknak

21st May 2007, 14:27

It's no good whinging and whining here, if you have no confidence in the official regulatory route, do something about it elsewhere.

What does BALPA have to say on the subject?

Controlador

21st May 2007, 14:36

Given that, from your point of view, Spanish ATCs do not speak/understand English very well and therefore you receive the wrong information when flying over Spain, why don't you learn Spanish properly and try to communicate in this language??

It's very easy for you to complain about this but you've never tried to understand the ATC's whose mother tongue is other than English. Have a look at all English tourists who come to Spain to spend their holidays and don't utter a word properly even after having spent spent more than 10 years in this country!!

Come on! I would like to see you working in Spanish or in any other language other than English!! You are the first ones who cannot adapt to an international workplace!

Thank you.:)

Permafrost_ATPL

21st May 2007, 16:31

Controlador, thank you for your input! To think that the solution was right there in front of us and we just didn't see it! I really look forward to learning Spanish, Italian, Greek, Turkish, Polish, Hungarian,...

:ugh:

P

ATC Watcher

21st May 2007, 17:09

Quote from Bomber Harris :

Genuinly nothing personal ATC watcher, but you did make your comment sound like that reporting the problem over pprune to you will have more of an affect to change things, rather than my previous course of action. I know you most likely didn't mean it that way....it's just my cynical mind

Well, sorry to have sounded pedantic to you, no, I certainly did not meant it that way. What I meant, and was afraid of , is excatly what followed : bashing Spanish ATC as a whole, and adding the language issue to it .

Complaining about ATC is a bit like complaining about women : you meet a few bad ones and the whole gender has to pay.

I am also a firm believer , like you it seems, of discussing and arranging things behind the " official " lines or offices . In Latin countries , such as Spain, an extended lunch with someone is certainly far more productive than mailing dozens of " official reports" .

No, PPRuNe will probably not change much, and certainly will not remove the legal requirement to use the language of the county overflown on the R/T ( whether it is an ICAO language or not, this is totally unconnected )

But having personally seen and lived though Spanish ATC and Spanish regulation before Franco, I can assure you that the situation has considerably improved , and still is improving . Perhaps not at the top level yet , but slowly getting there .

P.S. : For the Junior ones on this Forum that doubt what I say, just have a look at how an airline like Spantax was operating in 1970-80 and compare with today's. .

(

TE RANGI

21st May 2007, 17:30

I think Controlador's first post is a clear indication of the mentality of Spanish ATC. Well, at least he admits their level of English.

I think his input is not worth any replies. No further comments.

jtor

21st May 2007, 17:32

Controlador, you must be joking. English is the official aviation language all around the world. I've never had any difficulties with understanding the controllers (or controllers me) when flying for example in Scandinavia or German speaking countries, the Netherlands etc. Of course the accents vary but I've always got the job done - and sometimes even with some nice extra ;) It's always fun to chat with a controller if the traffic level is low and the frequency is quiet.

Maybe they just teach English language better in some countries. Who knows. Anyway, I'm not a controller and I know nothing about their requirements but I would like to know what kind of an English test do the Spanish/Italian/French controllers have? And why are the language problems there where they are?

jtor

ComJam

21st May 2007, 18:35

Controlador: What a brilliant idea! I'd love to be able to speak every single European language! :hmm:

You guys work in one country, we work over and in multiple countries. I don't think it's unreasonable that you should be expected to have a good grasp of the language that is taught to and used by pilots all over the world.

The thread is starting to drift, i don't think it was anyones intention to rattle the cages of Spanish ATC'ers. But, the fact remains that the standard of ATC in Spain is far lower than most other European countries and is, in some instances, dangerous.

<tin hat on>

Flying Torquewrench

21st May 2007, 18:59

Controlador,

I am sorry mate but you got a severe attitude problem.

You are talking about British tourists in Spain not speaking a word spanish. fair enough i can imagine that will annoy you.

However YOU have CHOOSEN to become an air traffic controller. As part of this job you have to talk to foreign aircrew who don't speak spanish. But there is an alternative, speak English. This is part of YOUR job.

The only reason why any spanish controller uses the 'Spanish is an ICAO language' excuse is because they are not able to speak basic English :mad:. Which is part of YOUR job.

And just for your information. Pprune is an international website and therefore there are more people replying on this thread than only British flight crew. So don't start slagging of the Brits.

I am one off these foreigners from a different country than the UK and i get completely fed up with you lot talking Spanish. When i fly over my home country i will greet them in my own language and than continue with the rest in English. But this is something i also do when checking in with a Spanish, German, Greek, etc. controller.

I can't wait till the moment everybody has to proof there proficiency in English. If i were a Spanish* controller i would get my books out and start studying because otherwise it could become very nasty.:E

FT.

*= Change to Greek/Italian as necessary

anotherthing

21st May 2007, 19:43

Controlador,

You are correct in your statement that the British, in particular, are poor as a nation in general, in learning a foreign language. We are, unfortunately miles behind other countries in this respect. There could be many reasons for this, but this is neither the time or the place to discuss such a matter.

However, if you are indeed a professional ATCO, then surely you can understand how dangerous it is to talk in something other than a common language when controlling/flying.

If you work at a little local airfield and all you have is locals in the circuit, then go for it.. however, as soon as a foreigner calls on frequency, everyone should resort to a common language.

Yes, us Brits may be very poor when it comes to the number of us that speak another language fluently, but that is a terrible reason for you to do something that has contributed to peoples deaths in the past, and will do so in the future, if it continues.

Or are you advocating, as ComJam says tongue in cheek, that pilots learn the language of every country they fly to? Or perhaps we could have pilots that only ever fly to one or two countries, i.e. the ones they can speak the language of?!

However, Controlador, may I be the first to say that your written English and your obviously outstanding grasp of English Grammer and spelling, is possibly better than some of the English native speakers on here (me included). As far as your post is concerned, it is almost immaculately written and presented... well done :ok:

Controlador

21st May 2007, 20:44

Obviously, it is not necessary to learn all those languages. What I really mean is that the problem is that sometimes you speak to Spanish/French/Italian-ATCs as if they were friends or relatives of you -English native speakers used to a colloquial register-.

That's why I asked you to imagine yourselves working every day in a language other than your mother tongue (English in this case). Maybe things would be better if you tried to speak slower and more clearly: like Queen Elizabeth :cool: (some kind of "unaccented" English, that is to say, RP English (Received Pronunciation)-. All in all, you are talking to people who are not English native speakers.

Cheers:)

emirmorocan

21st May 2007, 21:00

I have been flying through Portugal and Spain.I can assure that around 95% of R/T in Lisbon region is done in english,but Malaga,Valencia and Canaries are done mostly in spanish.Like Air France flights in Morocco that insists speaking french .

Controlador

21st May 2007, 21:21

All right, folks...! :E

I didn't mean to be such a provoker. I agree with you that it is very important to speak English fluently -this is actually one of the most important tools in this job-.

I admit that Spaniards have not traditionally been very good at speaking other languages but I can also assure you that things are going better and the new generations -in which I have been included recently :O- have a better command of English than previous ones. I particularly try to improve every day but not all of us have lived in East London or Glasgow, for example. On a radio communication it takes some more time to "decode" those accents and/or idioms.

Anyway, I hope that we all together will make air navigation safer. (Sorry about this boring speech...:)).

M609

21st May 2007, 22:00

Having english as second (or third) language has nothing to do with it IMHO.
If you are going to work as a controller, learn some English for ****** sake . ...properly. Otherwise find another occupation.

The only ones that have a problem with English as the one and only R/T language, are nations with a misguided national pride that bullies ICAO into keeping the myriad of languages as 'official' ones.

Do you think you are going to loose your identity because you (SP, IT, GR, FR) use english R/T at work? :ugh:

As for learning the language in the countries you fly ( or travel ) to:

Some pilots from the south of Europe should learn some English as well, good save me from Italian, French and Spanish MIL pilots....... :E :E

Btw, English is my second language, probably evident from the spelling! (It's rather poor in the first one as well :E )

Rgds
M609

groc

21st May 2007, 22:19

To be honest: I hope that childish posts are not representative of air professionals (ATCOs & crews).
Cheers,
LECB

badboy raggamuffin

21st May 2007, 23:34

I would have thought that FLUENCY in English, not just a working knowledge, should be an absolute basic requirement for any ATC controller, no matter where they are?

There are plenty of people in spain who speak fluent english, and speak it very well, surely it is not that hard to get some of these working in ATC at major airports?
Or perhaps ATC in spain is not paid so well/ does not carry enough prestige in spain to attract such well educated people, who are perhaps more tempted into the lucrative worlds of translation and international business.

andrijander

22nd May 2007, 08:28

Yes, of course there are plenty of people in spain who speak very good english. Be them translators or whatever that doesn't mean they'll do good as air traffic controllers. Does anybody here know how hard it is to find suitable candidates for training as ATCO's? Well, it's about only 4 out of 100 people tested, actually. And that is AFTER initial screening -I mean screening of their applications and Curriculum Vitae-. And guess how many actually become qualified and left to work: 2.5 out of 100 -averages applicable in europe-. Yes, let's focus on their language skills and that will make everything soooooooo much better. Let's forget the spatial orientation, the multi-tasking skills, the fact that they need to keep it cool and work under strees instead of running like headless chickens and that they need to be team players. Who needs that anyway? -for all of you who don't understand sarcasm all of the last is sarcastic except the succes rates which are very real-.
Now, let's focus again on the thread itself. Given the data, maybe the reporting system in Spain needs improving further. Maybe legislation needs improving further to allow for just reporting culture to set in. Maybe ya'll should be working in learning from each other -step off the cockpits into the towers and viceversa- and talk with "the enemy" instead of bringing working relationships to an even lower by acting childishly and approaching all with a "you're worse" attitude.
And maybe you should treat the language matter differently -some more respect will be appreciated and I really mean that as it may touch our pride in a bad manner and that will only encourage people to continue. It has to do with the way it is said, mind you, I agree that one language will be best. Imagine it being like when controlador told you all to learn spanish. It doesn't feel good, right? Matter of fact, almost any reason why english should be the one language can be used against you. Why not french as single language...or russian...arab anyone? So please treat it as it should be and thank your gods for it being english so far or all of you from the uk and us trying everybody to get what you say in your own language would have to sweat as some others do trying to get by talking something that makes not much sense at all. (living proof is that, me not being that bad with english was once told: "it's a bit black over Bill's mother's"...to mean that a storm was approaching...very standard ain't it?) And please remember that the chicago convention was a treaty signed and agreed to by all parts involved . It is kind of funny to me to see comments like the one from torque saying that controlador has chosen to be and that he should know english. Well, I do not know how old torque is but the picture in Spain has been from allways the same and I imagine torque would have known that he was becoming a pilot and that the situation in Spain was as it is -or did it come as a surprise to you first time you flew?Didn't they tell you at the school that other languages may be heard on the radio?-.
What I'm trying to say is that if you want this to be treated seriously start by treat it seriously yourselves -cut the bashing- and direct it to where it needs to go. Otherwise this would be as much as you'll get.
Safe flying,
A.

Avman

22nd May 2007, 10:04

Comes back down, to a certain extent, to the new FD access regulations. Before 911, a great many ATCOs would visit the front office when flying on vacation or whatever. This was one great way to discuss each other's frustrations and address questions regarding procedures etc. Additionally, ATCO fam flights and pilot fam visits were encouraged and often funded by the respective managements. Today, official fam flights are just about still possible, but on a valuable day off and at one's own expense. I fly around 50-60 sectors per year. In the 70s 80s and 90s I probably spent 90% of those sectors on the FD for the entire flight. Since 911 I have completed well over 300 sectors, not a single one of them on the FD. The new generation of ATCOs and pilots simply do not have the same professional and social contact that the previous generation enjoyed. The result is what you often see on these forums, ignorant (and sometimes immature) rants between two sets of highly qualified and trained professionals.

172driver

22nd May 2007, 10:19

I rarely post in this forum, as I am not professional flight crew. However, as I do a lot of my flying in Spain, I feel compelled to contribute to this thread.

FWIW had the following a few days ago. Out of LEZL eastbound VFR in my spamcan, squawk assigned and box working. ATZ come on in English advising of ‘commercial traffic’ going into LEJR at an altitude well above me. No probs. The Spanish (major airline) guy comes on – in Spanish, of course – and complains to ATC that he hasn’t got me on his TCAS. ATC assures him all’s well (in Spanish) and provides traffic info (in English) for me. So far, so good. Now this tosser of a pilot, knowing that his potential traffic is speaking English, continues to blather on in Spanish. Great. I, btw, speak fluent Spanish, but not the full ATC phraseology, which the chap wasn’t using anyway, so that didn’t really matter. Seville APP remains calm and reassures the guy that there’s no conflict (there wasn’t), we all carry on and live to fly another day....

Lesson? Don’t blame everything bad in Spanish airspace on the guys and gals at ATC, at least down here (LEMG, LEZL, etc) they are doing a pretty good job, also dealing with a lot of student pilots - and boy, have I heard Brits and others doing their ATP in this area stammering gibberish on the radio!

I venture to say that the big problem around here tend to be the Spanish pilots (sorry guys, yes, that's you at the pointy end!) who insist on speaking Spanish and even while doing so rarely seem to bother to adhere to any ICAO phraseology. Frankly, you hear some amazing exchanges. Can sometimes be quite funny, but certainly not good for situational awareness.

In a former life, I worked as translator/interpreter. Having to juggle two languages constantly (as in: every other sentence) is challenging enough, now doing that in front of a radar screen trying to keep the aluminium from hitting each other and/or the ground would overwhelm a lot of people. I'm actually sometimes surprised how well ATC here cope.

Alas, it will probably take a big smoking hole in the ground for someone to wake up and stop this ‘national language’ idiocy.

miles offtarget

22nd May 2007, 13:37

Exactly,

I first posted this thread to see if anyone had similar experiences of being cleared for the downwind runway etc. Not just a complaint about the incessant RT chatter in Spanish.

In my opinion that's just as dangerous, but not really what I asked.

By the way, since posting the original thread I have been given a vector on departure from LE** that was 30deg right of that requested and would have taken me into a red/magenta cb that was visible from the parking stands.

Great work.

Toodle pip,

MoT

anotherthing

22nd May 2007, 15:05

Miles Off Target

To be fair to Spanish ATC regarding your vector into a Cb - They do not have the equipment that tells them how bad the Cb formation is, if a clearance is, in your opinion, dangerous, you need to tell them why and request another heading.

Even with equipment on the ground that interprets Cb activity, I honestly believe that it should not be the ATCOs job to use it to vector A/C. I have had many occasions when one A/C will request vectors round a build up, yet the following one will happily fly through it.

toro01

22nd May 2007, 15:20

I had enough nonsense. You fly outside Europe and you will see what poor ATC is. STOP LOOKING AT YOUR STOMACH!!! Your lack of flying experience makes you feel that Spanish ATC is poor. No idea mate

Right Way Up

22nd May 2007, 16:10

Toro,
With all due respect thats torosh1t. :ugh::ugh:
Spanish ATC in general is poor. Believe me I would rather it was excellent. It would make our lives a lot easier. With the concentration of traffic in Spain due to expansion at major airports I am afraid its only a matter of time before we have a major accident. :(:(

bluefalcon

22nd May 2007, 17:02

This feels like just a load of :mad: threads about something so common in these days that most folks in this forum seem to just make a great deal of:confused:. Im surprised on how much enfasis has been given to the matter, and seriously it looks like most people in this thread have just done solely UK-Spain return flights, and havent been elsewhere.:ugh:
As someone else added before, spanish is an ICAO language, that means that JAR´s are also written is spanish, it means that operators can have ALL their documentation and manuals in spanish, evrything can be in spanish including evrything involved with ATC, you like it or not its like that, the same applies to French, I believe Russian and some other.
Of course comparing with flying over scandinavia, germany, italy, holland etc has no influence on this matter cus they dont have that right, evrything has to be in english and trust me most of those nationalities would love to, but theyre not approved, so in this matter we should think in why before opening our peaks., If any incident or accident directly related to this would have happened before, then we would all be speaking english mate!:}
About the rest, even though most people sound like crying babies I do agree that in general ATC quality is poor,, ATC dont seem to like making an effort to give you Direct WP´s, some controllllers speak as good english as me japanese :rolleyes:, but nothing else really, for the rest, they seem and act perfectly in accordance. TWR ATCs as someone said before military airports arent even in the acceptable margin, that is absoultely true, I have no defence for them :oh:, I heard that airports like Murcia, are changing soon into civil,,, but most civilian international ones are pretty decent.
Theres some aspects you dont see elsewhere; in spain making visuals is quite a tradition, and they try to help you out (not counting mad and bcn at peak times), but also with traffics before you, they inform you of their position and as long as you got the previos on sight they are in peace with it, unlike many EU airports in many places (incl UK) asking for visual with the preceeding in sight although is completely legal (as you assume the risk and youve left notice it through the transmission) they almost seem to laugh about that.
As a pilot, getting to make a good visual makes me more my day than having an ATC guy delyaing your departure a few minutes from some sort of confusion any could have;)
Someone porsted that in LEAL the ATC had intentions in giving priority to an iberia,,Why would there be priority to an Iberia if it aint anymore a public company( as AENA is):ugh:, did you maybe stop to think the iberia had a slot and maybe the ATC wanted to help out.:rolleyes:
In terms of equipment Ive visited quite many ACC and TWRs in Europe. In Spain the equipment genrally used in most ( dont know about the militaries)is from one of the leading spanish brands in this technology; INDRA which exports quite a lot of aviation and simulation equipments all over the world (incl the UK). :E
When i fly to the UK, or Germany (mainly these ones) the control is superb. Ofcourse still ages from the US for those of you who havent been there, but probably the best ones in Europe, you get lots of direct WP´s and good advisory information, I could also tell you a few number of things I could comlplain of like the only TCAS RA ive had in my career which was in german airspace, etc but in general excellent work, when i fly to spain i might one day be flying to one of these southern airports controlled by one of these newbees that ofcourse get sent to the most southern like places to get experience and feel like he doesnt have all what it takes, but hey... i say; field in sight and you know what, I make him the favour and me the pleasure,,,;)
Happy landings to all.

Vampy

22nd May 2007, 17:50

If any incident or accident directly related to this would have happened before, then we would all be speaking english mate!
You mean like the incident at Paris a few years ago when the English crew of a Shorts 360 started to line up for departure at an intermediate point (after being told do so by the controller), unaware that an aircraft had been cleared for take-off, in French, from full length? I also have a playback of a BA crew told to cross an active runway at LFPG who almost get taken out by an Air France aircraft on the take-off roll. What was ironic about that one, was that the controller, when he realised what was happening, told the BA crew to expedite their crossing in English, and told the Air France crew to abort take-off in French! So the BA crew were still none the wiser as to what had almost happened!

Mister Geezer

22nd May 2007, 21:01

Funny that the French can't be left out of a discussion when it comes to poor ATC! I personally find that the Frogs are worse than the Spaniards with CDG departure controllers being of questionable ability at times. I was once very close to giving one a bollocking on the air.

Morbid

22nd May 2007, 23:25

Spent this afternoon with one of Spains chief ATC bods (25 yrs in the job all over spain) and an instructor and mentioned I had been reading this thread last night. He said he wasn´t surprised and hoped I would put his points of view accross:

1, Increase in incident reports at BCN has been 3x - 5x the normal over the last 3 mths
2, Madrids taxiways are airport design and have nothing to do with ATC
3, Spanish language - Why not to other Spanish speakers. In his words "If it increases clarity thats got to be good for dafety"

Now the interesting part:

In this gentlemans opinion Aena made a big mistake 10 years ago by deciding to invest in keeping the ATCO´s it had rather than getting new blood in. This has led to a situation where older and more experienced ATCO´s have been kept in the job whilst traffic has increased at exactly the time that reaction times are slower for an aging workforce. Aena is now taking on a lot of new controllers but who wants the job when the older buys are family men looking to work the "comfortable shifts"? As such new ATCO´s are thrust into the deap end at the larger airports and this is causing the experiencelevel to drop where it is most necessary. Quality candidates are shying away from the job as although paying well by Spanish standards they know they will have the crappy shift patterns and be in a company that has previously showed it wants to wring as many years as possible from its ATCO´s....

Personally I can see where he is coming from as a lot of Spain works on the "years in" system where the more senior you are the greater choice in shifts / location and positions you have. Why would an experienced guy who came to Madrid or BCN back in his twenties not take the opportunity to move back to his home town / region where living costs are a third of these two cities?

I´m actually on the maint side of things so I can´t elaborate further but it did prove interesting to hear the other side of the coin...

toro01

23rd May 2007, 00:50

Again no idea what you are talking about. You guys read through all the nonsense you have written. Things can get better, as well as in FRA, LHR, LGW, CDG, GVA, DUB and so on. Only one major accident in Spain in the last 10 years.No blame on the ATC, only weather and (it is not really important but it was a uk registered aircraft)

"Beware of false knowledge, it is more dangerous than ignorance, Bernard Shaw"

Sonnendec

23rd May 2007, 03:51

Well, most british people i know (and believe me, i know a lot), don´t realize how small their country is. No hard feelings, i like english and the brits, but let me make my point:

The same international conventions and laws that make english the aeronautical language give us, the spaniards, the right (and obligation in some cases) to use our own language with spanish-speaking pilots if they call in in spanish (if they call in english we always answer in english). The matter is that we accept the rules, and i am tired of reading again and again that some of you just don´t. :ugh:

Maybe we, the international community, should revise the whole thing, but... would you accept, in that case, another language to be the new aeronautical one?

Best regards.

jtor

23rd May 2007, 05:56

Of course comparing with flying over scandinavia, germany, italy, holland etc has no influence on this matter cus they dont have that right, evrything has to be in english and trust me most of those nationalities would love to, but theyre not approved, so in this matter we should think in why before opening our peaks
They have exactly the same right. Let's take, for example, Finland where Finnish and English are the accepted languages in the world of aviation: when flying from/to EFHK the pilots and the controllers speak always English, of course there are sometimes some PPL Cessna-pilots speaking Finnish (but I think the reason is that they don't have an English R/T-rating). I've never heard a controller or a pilot speaking Finnish (except some private pilots) when there's a non-Finnish pilot on the same frequency. Finnish is used at smaller airports but when a non-Finnish a/c tunes the same frequency, a smooth change to English is performed.

EGGW

23rd May 2007, 05:58

Sure its your "Right" to speak your national language, but does that "Right" make it safe and wise to do so. It most certainly does not!
If "everyone" speaks and is able to listen in the same language, then safety is improved, this is not debateable. The amount of incidents that are caused worldwide, by people speaking in their national to one aircraft, and English others is well documented, Paris CDG in particular.

Bluefalcon wroteSomeone porsted that in LEAL the ATC had intentions in giving priority to an iberia,,Why would there be priority to an Iberia if it aint anymore a public company( as AENA is), did you maybe stop to think the iberia had a slot and maybe the ATC wanted to help out.

Don't make me laugh too much, that was funny. I filed Air Safety Reports numerous time about priority vectors and approaches for Iberia/Spanish Airlines. The best happened once into AGP, vectored LH downwind for 32. Was on a rather wide vector, asked to slow minimum clean. I then saw a IB 757 overtake us on the inside at 300+ knots. I asked if he had an emergency, the reply was unclear. What made it really funny was we had 2 x gents from LATCC (London Air Traffic Control Centre) on an educational flight. They were absolutely astounded at what had happened and commented they would be on a disciplinary hearing for doing that!! Luckily for me i speak reasonable Spanish and understood what the controller said to the IB 757!!
Its well known that IB and other Spanish Airlines give AENA employees flightdeck priveledges, perhaps no surprise that favouritism is rampant! :ugh:

I love Spain and most things Spanish, but the favouritism displayed by some ATCO's is very unprofessional!

EGGW

threemiles

23rd May 2007, 07:17

to use our own language with spanish-speaking pilots if they call in in spanish (if they call in english we always answer in english).
So, there is two types of pilots around:
1. those who believe flying in a multi-language environment is dangerous
2. those who believe flying in a multi-language environment is not dangerous
Why is that? I lived under the impression that safety is an absolute measure and there is no compromise?
when flying from/to EFHK the pilots and the controllers speak always English
In most if not all European countries north of the Alps English is the mandatory language for IFR flights, while local languages are permitted for VFR flights.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

23rd May 2007, 07:30

<<They were absolutely astounded at what had happened and commented they would be on a disciplinary hearing for doing that!! >>
UK ATCOs are impartial without a doubt but during my years in London ATC, during my spells as a Superviso, I fielded a good number of phone calls from pilots whingeing and moaning that "You let British Midland in first", or "Why did BA get take-off before us".... always from UK pilots and never from their foreign counterparts. I never heard anything about "disciplinary hearings" and am certain that they do not exist. Many, many times, aircraft are apparently given priority, both on the ground and in the air, to achieve the maximum landing rate. Day after day aircraft will be brought off the holding patterns apparently "out of turn" for this reason. Unfortunately some people working up front in their own little world can't take that on board.... but nobody in ATC gets disclipined.

BOAC

23rd May 2007, 07:57

Cannot find a previous post but a few years back in MAD with BA in a cronky old 737-200 we were denied start for a Maastricht imposed slot. Luckily the ground eng was listening and spoke Spanish and it transpired that SATCO MAD was allowing immediate starts for Spanish traffic but imposing his/her own 'airfield' 10 min separation for non-Spanish which gave us a 2 hour delay. I was the only BA a/c out of 5 with working HF and it transpired that the BA ATC manager was actually IN Maastricht at that very time and in no time at all it got sorted and the SATCO 'spoken to' by M.

You can add to the pot the Malaga 'wind calm, 14 in use' event which lasts until the Spanish 'rush' from the Balearics appears when you all troop round for 32 (and vice-versa). Another was runway 18 in MAD, 'take up the hold number 5 for the approach' to find after much Spanish chat on frequency and 20 minutes holding I was number 9.

I have a sneaking admiration for the way other countries do it, but as we ALWAYS play fair in the UK it hurts:)

Bedder believeit

23rd May 2007, 08:27

Totally off sync with what this thread is mainly about, but it seems to have partly devolved into a discussion on "national priorities". I totally agree with "Heathrow Director". In my nearly 40 years as a controller working in Aus, Dubai and now Hong Kong, I have never seen any favouritisms handed out to any airline/national group. As HD above says, there are circumstances where we have to fiddle to make things work. Just two nights ago, at nearly midnight, I taxyied a Cathay 747 past at least 10 other departing taxying aircraft to the 07R holding point because of a slot time issue over the Bay of Bengal for god's sake (nearly 3 flying hours away). Did the South African that was passed whinge, or the Alitalia, Air France, Swiss? No. Can't imagine any of the Cathay guys that were overtaken bleating. If there is one thing that get's me going with airline pilots, and that is the issue of "I was diddled". I often get Cathay guys saying to me "In Singapore...blah blah, Singapore Airlines always No 1...." etc. Well please explain to me, when you have a continuous line of arrivals that may stretch for the next 5 hours, and will consist of predominately local airlines, how the ATC system can start to do favours? It is my experience that we just try to proccess the inbounds to a landing that will be as fair as possible to most users, and will cause the least wear and tear on the ATC system. If HD has implied that UK pilots were the main culprits in the UK for whingeing, then it was the old Ansett/TAA crowd in Australia many years ago that were the same for me. Now I wait for the incomings. What is that old saying "Hell hath no fury like a pilot scorned!":ugh::ugh:

Doug the Head

23rd May 2007, 08:40

OK, Spain can be a bit chaotic sometimes, but Spanish ATC do put in the effort and I think they generally do a good job!! :ok: English is used more and more (also among Spanish airlines) and the situational awareness is greatly increased.

For me personally, it's especially Italy and France that are most dangerous. I love Italy (great food, lovely people) but ATC-wise they just don't seem to give a damn! Outright scary what I've seen in LIN, CIA, FCO, NAP etc.
MXP seems to be the only exception where things are fairly well organized.

And then there's French ATC. They seem to have no clue who flies in their airspace ("errr, station calling") and make up for the lack of situational awareness by introducing bureaucratic procedures by forcing you to fly with 220 kts around Paris or being at minimum approach speed 25 miles out, wasting hundreds of kilos of fuel. Furthermore, if you lose Comm (because you're trying to block out all the mindless "errrrrrrr" French ATC chatter) they won't hesitate for one second to send up a few Mirages armed with heat seeking missiles.

Bomber Harris

23rd May 2007, 10:17

ATC Watcher.....thanks for the proff reply.

This thread is going slightly off topic. Lets face the facts here. Lots of contributers have had multiple incidents in spain with ATC. We can compare it to UK, China or Mongolia. It doesn't matter. There are problems with spanish ATC. What are the problems?

Well IMHO using their native tongue is not CAUSING this problems. It makes the problems worse by confusing some of the parties involved after a problem occurs, but i dont think it is the root cause.

Let me call the pot black and run for cover:}

Some of the cause of my frustrations is either lack of intersest of bad communication within ATC. eg when you get cleared for an arrival and told which app/rwy to expect by control. Then getting handed over at FL150 and told there is a non-precision on the other end in use!! Do they realise how much problems this causes us?? Yeah Yeah, dont give me all this gab about just taking up the hold till its set up. Everyother ATC in northern eulope from east to west (poland to ireland) is able to co-ordinate this. But the spanish and the italians cant.

Next of all, I have seen to many "loss of situational awareness" by tower controllers in my short time as a pilot (since the 90's). On occasions (much much more than one) i have had to tell atc that i could not do the approach i was cleared to do because a naviagtion aid was not working. There was no understanding from the controller that the notamed inop nav aids render the app unusable. I have had a loss of separaton on a number of occasions caused by bad atc controlling. (Sounds like an off the cuff comment...trust me its not. To give you any detail would immediatly reveal my identity to my management team as they would all be very aware of one particular incident. Sure, the blame was placed directly on atc, but what has changed...thats the problem.)

I cant believe there are people saying if you think there is a problem in spain then you have no experience. Thats rubbish. Do you want us all to measure ourselves against somalian ATC? Fools. Measure ourselves agains British or German ATC. Aim high. Im afraid that spanaish (and italian) atc is not up to THAT standard and it is causing me, and a lot of other pilots, problems. REAL PROBLEMS.

Sonnendec

23rd May 2007, 11:39

Well, i´m not going to answer to the insulting posts (afortunately, not all of you, thank you), but just make a couple of comments that really annoyed me:

1.- One has said that we give priority to spanish pilots because their companies give us special conditions in the flightdeck. This is absolutely FALSE. It´s a fact that spanish companies give us the worst treatment of all. We have much better conditions with british, dutch or german companies. I have never seen any of my colleagues (of course i have never done it either) delay a foreign aircraft to give priority to a national one just because he is national. Thinking that is really knowing NOTHING about air traffic control. But it´s ok, because that´s not the pilot´s work, although some pilots think they are experts on the matter and we are a bunch of amateurs with headphones.

2.- Spanish controllers ARE controllers. Some of our procedures are somehow chaotic and maybe we are taught in a more creative way of controlling, because most of the time we don´t have much choice. Fly, in instance, to LPA on a busy morning, and you will see how we are giving vectors from east, west, north and south that aparently lead you nowhere but, surprise! you end up exactly 5 miles behind the preceding (not always a spanish one :ugh:) and 5 miles ahead of the one behind. The difference i´ve seen with the british ATC system is that the procedures up there are made for high density traffic, and ours are still not (bureaucracy is still incredibly slow in Spain), so we have to deal with the same amount of traffic but with a lot more pressure, since we have to "create" the secuence from 0. A british controller would do the same if he worked here, and we would do like the british if we worked there. It´s not a matter of high or low knowledge standards.

3.- I´m fed up with the "it´s a matter of time to have a major accident down there". I have been reading that nonsense since a long long time ago... and i´m still waiting. Maybe we are not that bad? :ugh:

M609

23rd May 2007, 12:17

flying over scandinavia (......) and trust me most of those nationalities would love to...

Well not really. Norwegian R/T does not exist any more, and I can count the times I have given control instructions in Norwegian on the fingers of my left hand. (All to PPL students struggling with the R/T)

Sweden used swedish a lot in the past, but it's use is less prominent today, and pretty much just for PPLs.

I see that some here argue that the UK is a small country, and should not be allowed to set the main aeronautical language.

Maybe we, the international community, should revise the whole thing, but... would you accept, in that case, another language to be the new aeronautical one?

This has nothing to do with accepting this and that. The fact is that in a great deal of countries around the world, English is the second language people learn after the native one. It's about being a bit pragmatic.

The Swedes and the Finns have the right to use national R/T, but because they don't have the pig headed misguided national pride thing going (Any more), they have recognized the safety gains provided with one language R/T. (English) :)

'My country's language is the best, because I come from a great nation, and anyone that don't like to use my language can just s** off. ' ( ;) )

Now, that could be a brit speaking, but you get the drift.

Is that constructive? Because all the arguments I have seen here for the use of French, Spanish, Italian, Swedish, Russian..... R/T pretty much boils down to that IMHO.

ElNino

23rd May 2007, 12:24

I recall requesting taxi in MAD, having been pushed to beside a link taxiway. Despite repeated calls on ground, no reply was forthcoming as the controller elected to allow an Iberia a few stands along to start his push. Once he had finished his push, he was facing us with nowhere to go but out the link we (thought) we were blocking. By now we had been ready to taxi for at least 5mins and had made repeated calls to Ground, all of which were ignored. So it was with shock we heard the IB cleared to taxi ahead of us. Advising ATC that there was no room for him (which there wasn't) also went ignored. No problem for our hero in red and yellow though, him simply ignored the taxi line, squeezed out past us with his wingtip very uncomfortably close to our flight deck, taking out some taxiway edge lights with his main gear as his went. We were then finally given taxi.
No favouritism? Professional standards? Yeah right :mad:

leeleal

23rd May 2007, 12:29

Hi,
I work as atc in LEAL (just TWR, not APP) and I´m getting amazed of the lack of respect and knowledge many of you are showing about our job.
As others have pointed out, in Spain we NEVER give priority to any traffic except in cases of emergencies, slots or when applying minimum avarage delay (letting a fast aircraft go before a slow one will always benefit the general traffic flow). I must make clear that since long ago we do not receive any privileges from Iberia or other national(?) airways.
Apart from that, how about looking things from other perspective? Have you ever wondered how some pilots make our (your) work easier than others? Let´s see:

Is it normal to step in the local freq (yes the one we use when adjusting incoming and departing traffics on a single runway airport) to call out your callsing, aircraft type, stand, destination, atis info copied and requesting your atc clearance within 45 minutes or more in advance of your EOBT? do you know how valuable can the freq ocupation time be in many situations? do you all check there is a ground freq for that purposes? are you all aware we usally do not have your FPL at hand (and thus your ATC clearance) until 30 min before your EOBT?

Are you really aware we usually have a great view of the apron from our towers? Why then say you are ready for start and/or push back if we clearly see all your bay doors open or a bunch of handling vehicles just behind your shiny B737. Believe me, it happens more than you would imagine.

Talking about language and oral comprehension. What part of “when ready for departure call....” isn´t clear enough? The thing is that most pilots step in the freq invariably without being ready therefore requiring for more more useless transmissions.

And this should make just enough for a start, I could post a real long list of similar complaints (I´ve filled last month two air miss reports, both of them pointed the fault on foreing crews). The thing is I believe we both (pilots and atcos) work together to make flying safetier, faster and easier and therefore we all should do our best to reduce the workload on the other part.

Don´t think however we are not on are way to improve our part. I´m personally encouraging the use of english when situational awareness is required, and I know my mates are doing so more and more each time. We´ve finally (after years of constant requests) got a CFMU terminal to make flow arrangements (namely REA´s) much more fast. We´ve got a much more efficient LoA with the airport operations office improving taxi to stand and pushback operations. We are constantly requesting essential works to be made in the navigation side of the airport (new speedways, bigger holding bays, ILS for rwy28...). We all know there is a lot more to do, but I´m sure we are more in it than many of the ones who just complain without having a clue of anything but their butts.

By the way, when flying anywhere I always ask to visit the frontdeck, and if posible see the aproach and landing. I like to listen and talk to pilots to see how their work goes and what they think about ours. I wonder how many of you have visited one of those atc facilities you´re so easily talking about. Needless to say you will anytime receive a warm welcome at LEAL.

See you.

kontrolor

23rd May 2007, 16:11

spanish controllers have the highest wages in the world.

Flying Torquewrench

23rd May 2007, 16:40

Andrijander,

Just for your information they did tell me at school that more languages would be heard on the radio. However there is a limit to how many languages one can speak. And currently I do speak four different languages (English, Dutch, German and French) so I think I have done well to adapt myself to the rest of the world.
As I also said in my earlier post, English is not my native language. But I still speak it good enough to assure a safe operation whilst carrying out my duties as a pilot.

And that this situation has been around from the beginning of aviation is irrelevant. By talking Spanish you reduce the situational awareness of all other non-spanish speakers.

And by the way it is not bashing. You are telling me that I should have known that there are more languages spoken on the airwaves. Point taken, but it would be nice to see a bit more proficiency in English from the Spanish controllers side. And for that matter French, Greek and Italian.

TORO01,

Yep, do agree with you. However other ATC units outside Europe might be bad. But there is one saving grace. THEY SPEAK ENGLISH. So we can build our own mental picture what’s going on.

wiccan

23rd May 2007, 18:01

leeleal,
At MAN there is a [D]ATIS broadcast "requesting" pilots NOT to call for ATC Clearance more than 10 mins before EOBT
Are you really aware we usually have a great view of the apron from our towers? Why then say you are ready for start and/or push back if we clearly see all your bay doors open or a bunch of handling vehicles just behind your shiny B737. Believe me, it happens more than you would imagine.
Happens ALL the time, live with it.
bb

Check Mags On

23rd May 2007, 18:39

Like everyone else on here I have seen some strange goings on in Spain.

But I have to commend :D the controller at Barca, who after I twice had my request for clearance back to Edinburgh stamped on by a Binter Canarias flight. Told him to shut up and then apologised to me before giving the clearance.

They are not all bad.
CMO

JToledo

23rd May 2007, 18:44

As an en-route ATCO from LECB let me give you my point of view on some of the issues addressed in this thread.
I am aware that there are things to improve over here, and I am definitely not satisfied with a quality of service that is described as only marginally better than that of third-world countries. We must do better and while I am sure that a portion of the pilots will tend to rate their own country's ATC as the best, the fact that I hear no complaints about, say, Scandinavians countries make me believe I have to give some credibility to these complaints.
I believe much of the problem has to do with our culture, which favours individualism and creativity rather than strict procedure adherence. That doesn't mean that rules are not followed. Instead, it means that there are a great number of things that are left to the decision of the individual controller, and while it is only natural that there may exist many solutions to a problem some are provably worse (intentional -v-).
It takes time and effort for this culture to evolve. Let me tell you, though, about a couple of things that make me believe such change is indeed happening:
- Enforcing of the CFMU approved profile. This came to be in LECB just two weeks ago. Even though we have some trouble implementing it since our flight strips only show the approved level for the initial climb and we have to do too much button clicking to verify the profile when it's not a straight climb to cruise level, I believe a high proportion of my colleagues is actually following this directive even though some believed it’s better to ask the RFL always at first transmission (hint: it’s not, and please make sure to file a CHG if you do not believe the profile is appropriate, or be sure to refuel enough for that very long segment at FL300)
- Evaluation of competence in English: This comes because of a Eurocontrol directive, but it has kick-started our management into a preemptive testing of our workforce so as to prepare for eventual additional training if needs be. The results are yet to come out, but the fact that we are giving in without too much hassle into this evaluation opens up the door for more of this stuff, which is simply tantamount to a quality assurance process.
With respect to the ever present issue of RT language, let me offer a word of praise to Spanish pilots on this issue. Although admittedly I am quite new on this business, I’ve only spoken English on the frequency whenever a foreign pilot was around (almost always). My trick is to call the Spanish callsigns in Spanish to get their attention, and proceed to give the clearance in English. In all this time only once has a pilot complained that I should talk Spanish to him. Many pilots will readback in Spanish, though, but I believe this technique is enough to improve situational awareness for you language impaired people :ok:.

cumulus pajaritus

23rd May 2007, 20:00

I agree with JToledo, I think cultural background has a lot to do in this topic .
Coming from a (spanish-speaking) Latin America Country, living at the moment in Spain and after living in USA, UAE, UK and Germany among others I realized that it can be guessed some common cultural-factors in the spanish-speaking countries that I would like to share it in this forum:

*- Lack of competitiveness felling: Unfortunately the tendency is to compete with someone else by pushing this person out of the way instead of improving one self (to be more competitive) therefore, this cause:
*- Lack of feeling to improve one self: Why should I do it better if there wont be any difference for my own benefits?
*- Comfortable feeling, is like getting fat, if you do not stop early it becomes worse and worse. And you wont stop because you are very confortable eating like a pig.

And I can share you more common factors that would make you realize why our culture takes longer to be adapted in a competitive environment but would make my post too boring...

Saludos,

CuPa.-

(I would like to cause no offence by sharing my opinions, if by any chance you think I writing something unappropiate or off-topic please contact me via PM's since I do not want to take this forum out of the main topic)
:suspect:

RYR-738-JOCKEY

23rd May 2007, 20:05

Standard scenario anywhere in Spain:

Ryr: Ryanair 123, FL 360, direct Alicante, request descent
Atc: Ryanair, muy buenas, proceed Alicante, then Ditre next.
Ryr: Alicante, then Ditre, request descent, Ryanair 123.
Atc: ....
Ryr: Radar, do you read Ryr 123?
Atc: ...
Atc: Eh, Ryanair (lots of commotion in the background), cleared down level 250.
Ryr: Descend FL 250, Ryr 123.
Ryr: Which RWY can we expect (no ATIS), Ryr 123?
Atc: Ryanair, eh at the moment 05 ...
Ryr: Roger, rwy 05 in use, Ryr 123.
Ryr: Ryr 123 FL 250, standing by for lower (keeping us high..),
and please confirm arrival.
Atc: Roger...eh, proceed Ditre, then 240, down level 160.
Ryr: Descending FL 160, confirm HDG 240 after Ditre.
Atc: ...
Ryr: Radar, do you read Ryr 123?
Atc: (Talking to others)
Ryr: Ryr 123, overhead Ditre, turning right HDG 240.
Atc: Roger, proceed Alton.
Ryr: Confirm waypoint, not in our routing, Ryr 123.
Atc: ...HDG 250, Ryanair 123.
Ryr: Roger, HDG 250, Ryr 123.
Atc: Ryr 123, RWY 23 now, descend level 70, transition level 70, Qnh 1005.
Ryr: Confirm descend FL 70 for Ryr 123?
Atc: Confirm
Ryr: (Now busy setting up for opposite) Can you confirm your Radar Minimums, according to our charts it's 8400 in this sector.
Atc: ??? Eh, roger...
Ryr: We're IMC here, confirm your...disregard visual with the field now (phew)
Atc: Ryanair, turn left 180, descend 3000, Qnh 1005, cleared VOR 23.
Ryr: Left HDG 180, descend 3000, Qnh 1005, cleared VOR app 23.
Ryr: Ryr 123, established VOR app 23.
Atc: ...
Ryr: Ryr 123, ESTABLISHED VOR 23, DO YOU WANT US TO CALL TOWER?
Atc: zzzz
Ryr: Tower, Ryr 123, inbound on the VOR 23, 5 miles.
Atc: Continue, Ryanair
Ryr: Continue, Ryr 123.
Ryr: ("TRAFFIC, TRAFFIC")Ryr 123, we've got traffic 11 o' clock, slightly
below.
Atc: Roger, continue...(habla, habla, translated: VFR traffic: We have an inbound Ryanair, go somewhere, eh North...NOW)
Atc: Ryanair, clear to land.
Ryr: Cleared to land RWY 23, Ryr 123.

Sounds familiar?

Dct_Bombi

23rd May 2007, 20:48

Bomber harris >> "Everyother ATC in northern eulope from east to west (poland to ireland) is able to co-ordinate this."
I guess your not a regular in posnan then :hmm:

Hey whereEVER you fly even on you home turf your going to have issues with RT its just the nature of the beast. I am guilty i guess for calling for push and start with cargo door still open or stepping on people, I recognise the fact i make mistakes and I of course notice others mistakes.
It is hard not to sit on the fence from my experience of spain,,, I have been cut up in BCL and AGP and I also have been turned in ahead of others. I do try and question RT if there is something that raises a brow and have found generally a constructive response.

As with your colleague next to you in the flightdeck, each and everyone has their own personalties and characters, and mix a little culture also and you get a mixed bag of experiences some good some bad depending on the day that individual is having.

The french/spanish speaking on freq must be addressed, but as with anything in aviation history it will take a major accident to kick start any serious move forward.

Until then its volume knob up and binoculars at the standby on crossing over to the spanish.:eek:

I have had experiences like RYR-738_JOCKEY in spain/Italy/poland/germany/france/uk etc etc,,, It just so happens I spend alot of my time in spain right now so thats where it happens to me most right now.

groc

23rd May 2007, 21:05

RYR: BARCELONA, RYR123 TO MLA FL370
ATC: RYR123, BARCELONA, IDENTIFIED FL370, PROCEED MLA AND EXPECT RWY05 INITIALLY
RYR: TO MLA AND EXPECTING 05, RYR123
...
RYR: RYR123, REQUEST
ATC: RYR123, GO AHEAD
RYR: DO YOU HAVE THE LATEST WEATHER OF LELC, RYR123?
ATC: RYR123, I'LL CALL YOU
...
ATC: RYR123, READY TO COPY THE WEATHER?
...
ATC: RYR123, SAURA FL320 OR BELOW, DESCEND FL310
RYR: DESCEND FL310, FL320 OR BELOW BY SAURA, RYR123
...
ATC: RYR123, CONTACT BARCELONA 129.525, BYE
RYR: BARCELONA 129,525, BYE, RYR123
...
RYR: BARCELONA, RYR123 DESCENDIG FL310
ATC: RYR123, IDENTIFIED, DESCEND FL250
RYR: DESCEND FL250, RYR123
...
ATC: RYR123 CONTACT VALENCIA 119.075, BYE
RYR: VALENCIA 119.075, BYE, RYR123
...

And, believe me, this is as real as standard.
Let me add that LELC, Murcia - San Javier, has military control.

Cheers.

Doug the Head

23rd May 2007, 22:05

Well, once again, having just come back from a flight to Spain, I really don't understand what all the fuss and criticism is about.

Sure, people make mistakes and yes, it is sometimes a bit different than northern Europe, but I really think that there is a genuine effort to slowly increase the use of English. With more and more foreign pilots joining Spanish low cost airlines, this trend will only continue to grow.

Small example, today in Spain, the ground controller told a Spanair MD80 in English to "give way to an easyJet" in order to let us know at the same time that the Spanair would give way. Something like this would have been unheard of a few years ago, but the Spanair acknowledged in English and the problem was solved without wasting additional radio calls.

Muchas gracias! :ok:

Sonnendec

24th May 2007, 04:25

Ok. This is for my spanish mates that try to make their point although you dont let them:

Don´t waste your time (i have wasted mine too, i know), this is the forum that we have talked about again and again, let´s just let them talk about how good they are, it´s clear that they don´t care about our point of view. I hope somebody makes a reasonable argument in Pprune other than the ones i´m used to read here. Until then, well... let´s deal with the "air hoolingans" only on the frequency.

Es decir, dejadlo estar, no vale la pena.

Best regards.

haughtney1

24th May 2007, 06:52

Sonnendec, what pray tell me..is your point?

Agaricus bisporus

24th May 2007, 07:51

ATC is at least as bad at Nice...

RYR-738-JOCKEY

24th May 2007, 08:27

What I don't get is that regardless of how many people are complaining about Spanish ATC, some people are defending them to the bitter end, blaming everyone else. IMHO, I don't feel completely safe in Spain, I don't trust the controllers 100%, and this is only based on my own experience. Do you really think I base my view on what other people may say about this?? I'm not alone about this, lots and lots of my fellow workers share the same view.

When in Spain...
1: I often find myself in a situation asking for confirmation/verification,
WITHOUT getting it.
2: the controller prioritizes according to his subjective perception, rather
than the ACTUAL situation. If I have a problem, I have to speak up in
order to get attention. Litterally using my voice.
3: I don't know what to expect. Changing ARR/SID/RWY...
4: I feel they don't care much about detailed knowledge. For instance, IFR
design parameters, MOCA's/MORA's/MSA's etc. MaÑana
5: ...last but, not least...Bad phraseology/language difficulties
Before you behead me, I don't have English as first language either.

toro01

24th May 2007, 12:01

I agree 100% with the last post. Well said!!!!

RYR-738-JOCKEY

24th May 2007, 12:22

Well, what do you do when on vectors get a descent clearance below MSA or MOCA for that matter? The controller is responsible for ensuring that you have obstacle clearance when he's vectoring you, of course you have final responsibility if anything should happen...but, my point is; you have to be able to trust the controller. When I'm in Spain, I feel I can't trust them...100%
This thread is about highlighting an issue, poor atc in Spain. Your point is that there are other places worse than Spain, confirm? Which proves exactly what?

Chilli Monster

24th May 2007, 12:32

I've also being taught not to rely on ATCOs to decide my flight path, my minima, my obstacle clearance.
It is not their job,

Sorry - but that IS an ATC job if you're IFR and if they're not doing that, and, as 738 says, descending you below MSA then there's some serious problems with the provision of service and competency of the ATCO concerned.

fox niner

24th May 2007, 13:13

I-FORD wrote:

Try flying in Africa or South America and you'll understand what airmanship and situation awareness really means.

What an absolute load of @$#%^&*!!!

When I fly to Lagos, Nigeria, for example, ATC is virtually non-existent. But hey, we are the only airplane in their "TMA" so no big deal. And in Spain/Italy/Greece it is BUSY.

And what's more: Spanish/Italian/Greek ATC centers should compare themselves to other European ATC centers, NOT to some Banana-republic in South America or Africa.
Is Spain a first world country or not?

cumulus pajaritus

24th May 2007, 14:23

In SouthAmerican countries and Third World Countries, this problems are sometimes addressed/solved... where in Spain it is not (And Spain belongs to the EU)

Mexico: Read Article below
Argentina: Article in Spanish, the ATC/situation there is disastrous but they decided to train the controllers and to improve their knowledge, mainly in English.

Spain should keep up with the well developed nations by improving instead of comparing itself with 3rd world countries....

CuPa.-

Mexico: (source: http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Mexico_Canada_Join_ATC_NextGen_Effort_195229-1.html )

Mexico and Canada have agreed to implement the FAA’s vision for the Next Generation Air Transportation System (NGATS) in concert with the U.S. to create a seamless continent-wide, space-based air traffic management system. At a North American Aviation Trilateral meeting in Quebec last week, all three nations agreed to proceed with implementation of required navigation performance (RNP), RNAV and ADS-B technologies in an integrated way so that procedures and standards will be harmonized over North America. The primary goal of the NextGen technology is to increase system capacity but, in a speech (http://www.faa.gov/news/speeches/news_story.cfm?newsId=8868) during the meeting, FAA Administrator Marion Blakey said there are also environmental and financial benefits attached.

Argentina: (Source La Nacion newspaper -in Spanish-)
http://www.lanacion.com.ar/informaciongeneral/nota.asp?nota_id=911337&pid=2590909&toi=5256

La crisis de la seguridad aérea

Convenio para capacitar a los controladores

El Ministerio de Defensa llegó a un acuerdo con las universidades de San Martín y de Buenos Aires, que ofrecerán cursos de formación y actualización

El Ministerio de Defensa firmó convenios con las universidades de San Martín (Unsam) y de Buenos Aires (UBA), con lo que ambas colaborarán en la formación y perfeccionamiento de controladores aéreos.

La UBA brindará capacitación en idioma inglés a través del laboratorio de idiomas, de la Facultad de Filosofía y Letras. Esto les permitirá a los controladores alcanzar el nivel de los estándares requeridos a nivel internacional por la Organización Internacional de Aviación Civil.

Right Way Up

24th May 2007, 14:37

And finally the apparent root of the problem.....complacency. Why try to improve when there is always somebody worse than you.:ugh::ugh:

Sonnendec

24th May 2007, 15:49

Complacency??¿??

It has been YOU, folks, the ones comparing us with those countries. No spanish ATCO would say anything like that.

It´s amazing, you know everything about air traffic control, do you know also about genetic engineering? maybe they could use some lessons too.

I´m used to work with professional pilots, it´s a drag we don´t have the smartest ones around here.

Best regards.

Right Way Up

24th May 2007, 16:40

Sonnendec,
Its the people who run ATC that are complacent. The controllers can only do as good as their system or training allow. In the past when I have submitted an Air Safety Report about air traffic control related incidents, the chances of a reply are zero. Believe me I would rather not have to complain. The problem of people ignoring the warning signs are all too evident..... an example of this is running in the courts as we debate this.

John Boeman

24th May 2007, 17:11

One thing is for sure, some of these observations are not new.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=96618&highlight

Sonnendec do you know PakoSpain by any chance?

Sonnendec

24th May 2007, 17:13

Right way up,

I agree with you about the safety reports, as i said the bureaucracy in Spain is sooooo slow that most of the time you don´t even get an answer from the authorities.

The thing is that i was raised in the believe that if you don´t really know about something, better not talk about it. I don´t try to teach you how to pilot your planes (although i could say a lot of things about, for example, british pilots) because i have the biggest respect for the proffesionals from the other side of the frequency. And some of your colleagues don´t show any respect for us in this forum. And that´s something that has to do with education and not with air safety.

We are making quite an effort in the present improving procedures, fighting against very old regulations to make your life easier in the air, we are developing a plan of english improvement for those who are still (very few really) weak on that subject to meet the international standard, operational english (level 4) -remember, this is not a bar, it´s OPERATIONAL english-, a lot of controllers give their time trying to figure out the best way of drawing the new Terminal Areas so that we can raise our capacities for the major airports without HAVING TO be "creative" making secuences from zero... well, some of you could ask before insulting us or before saying that nothing is being done to improve our standards (which are already very high, it´s my opinion).

Now, keep on the bashing...

Best regards.

Sonnendec

24th May 2007, 17:18

John Boeman,

Well, Paco is a retired controller from Malaga, i think i had the chance to meet him time ago, but i´m not really sure right now that it was the same guy.

I´m sure i could easily find him if you want anything with him, just say so.

Flying Torquewrench

24th May 2007, 17:40

Sonnendec,

I am not sure if there is no respect from the pilot community for the spanish controllers.

However i can understand that the respect goes down a little bit when your fellow controllers pull a stunt like the one below.

Last week on a flight to Malaga. We were maintaining FL340 and an Iberia was at FL360 roughly 5 minutes behind us. Subsequent descent and direct Martin was given by the controller. 5 miles before reaching Martin we received radar vectors and the controller vectored us 90 degrees to the right (away from the airfield) and told us to maintain our level. In the meantime the Iberia was given further descent and cleared to intercept the localiser. While this was going on we were vectored away from Martin by up to 15 miles. Once the Iberia was passed we were given our final vector and cleared to intercept the localiser.

As you can imagine we were a bit pissed off. And indeed the respect for that controller disappeared as snow in the sun. And just for your information the Iberia was 15 miles behind us when we received our first vector.

Unfortunately this happens fairly regular. However this doesn't mean that all controllers would do the same. It's probably the same with us pilots. You got loads of good ones and a few bad ones who spoil the show for everybody.:{

FT :ok:

Sonnendec

24th May 2007, 19:13

Flying Torquewrench,

Your post is the proof that you can give your opinion with respect, which i thank you.

I have never seen a situation like the one you are saying. It´s nonsense to give you a delay vector if another aircraft is 15 miles behind, since none of you would have delay if you keep flying towards the field. I think the controller had another reason to take that decision, because, like you have been told, there is no reason at all to give priority to spanish companies, since they are not state companies anymore and they don´t give us any special treatment when we fly on vacation (like i said before british and german companies give us more and better conditions to fly). Anyway i take your word since you were there and i was not. Anyway, it could be that this controller made a bad decision or that he/she was pissed at your company, i don´t know.

"You got loads of good ones and a few bad ones who spoil the show for everybody"

You are right, but let´s look at the situation on the other way: you can speak, on a trip through Spain, with 6 or 7 spanish controllers, while i speak with a lot more english pilots in just one hour. Everyday i see one or two that really seem to not having any idea of what´s going on, but i don´t finish my work day and go home saying: "British pilots dont know how to fly!", "Please teach those brits how to make a XXX approach", "It´s a matter of time to have a major accident with a british pilot!" It would be stupid to think like that, since i assume that you are great proffesionals that try to make your job as good as possible every day, and our business is the same one, SAFETY. And i miss the same treatment from some of the ones that write around here.

Thanks for your opinion. Safe flights.

John Boeman

24th May 2007, 19:25

Flying Torquewrench, have a look here, at post number #36,
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=96618&page=2
which I made nearly four years ago, describing a not dissimilar incident.

I made the following observation then:

"When I think back over the worst examples of this type of controlling I have observed, it is always after a more lengthy exchange than normal, between the pilot and the controller. I can only come to the conclusion, alluded to by Crackerjack, that most of this is “driven” by the (Spanish) pilots involved, but it is the controllers that are either “caving in” to their demands or are quite happy to go along with them.

The controllers, presumably, are unaware that this way of doing things is not the norm elsewhere, but the pilots for sure, know damn well that it is not!
(Well, maybe not the Binter pilots........)”

Some of the previous posts on this thread would seem to indicate that there are some signs of slow change taking place….

Gonzo

24th May 2007, 19:27

Let me get this straight.

Spanish ATCOs get better travel perks with British airlines than with Spanish airlines.

However...

British ATCOs get better travel perks with Spanish airlines than with British airlines.

Can we swap? :confused:

Sonnendec

24th May 2007, 19:38

Haha, Deal! ;)

Flying Torquewrench

24th May 2007, 20:02

Sonnendec,

Thank for your reply. And my apologies if i, in my other posts, came across as having no respect for the controllers. Thats was not my intention as it wouldn't help our discussion at all.

I do understand that you speak to more pilots than we speak to controllers. But unfortunately the story in my previous post is not an exeption. As John Boeman confirms. You personally might not give any preferential treatment to spanish aircraft but other controllers do. And it can be very frustrating. Because we want to arrive on time at our destination also.

As an example read post #21 on page 2. Also written by me.
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=276611&page=2

But one thing i would like to say to you about the Spanish language on the radio. Please believe me it does reduce our situational awareness. And you end up trying to figure out what other traffic is doing by looking at the TCAS display. And TCAS is not designed for that purpose.

As said earlier on this thread. The proficiency in English of the Spanish controllers on this thread is well above average. But the controllers who could do with a brush up course in English probably don't post in this thread.

All the best,

FT:ok:

Airbrake

24th May 2007, 20:16

Sonnendec,
Being a frequent operator into Malaga I can assure you that being vectored out of the way to allow a Spanish national ahead happens regularly. On occassion there maybe sound professional reasons for these vectors but not always, the same applies for Madrid and several other airfields.
I don't think that some controllers realise how good an aid TCAS is an a TMA. It does not take long to figure out what is what and suspicious vectors can be quite obvious.
There is no smoke without fire and some unprofessional controllers are giving Spanish ATC a bad name acoss Europe.

RYR-738-JOCKEY

24th May 2007, 21:13

Sonnendec, I did not intend to be insulting. My apologies. All I care about is that there are occasions, when flying in Spain, when I encounter difficulties which I don't experience as frequently elsewhere in Europa (apart from Italy). As have been mentioned before: "...loads of good ones, and a few bad ones..." etc.
I gave a few specific examples, to pinpoint what I experience as some of the issues... Not blaming all of you.
But hey, there are indeed bad pilots as well..(not talking about Spaniards) :)

Bedder believeit

25th May 2007, 09:52

It would seem that perceived standards of Air Traffic Control and pedestrian/zebra crossings have a lot in common. 99.9% of the time when one steps on to a ped'n xing in the UK, Northern Europe, US/Canada, Aus, NZ or Kong Kong/Singapore, then one stands a pretty good chance of making it to the other side of the road unscathed. I can't say - from my experience, that the same applies in Italy, Greece etc.

haughtney1

25th May 2007, 14:47

Coming back to the thread, this "perceived" safety issues have any statistic to back them up (for example ATC incidents in Spain compared to the rest of Europe) or are exactly that, "perceived" versus "real".
I Ford, you have missed the point, we are relating our experiences of operating day in and day out into Spanish airspace, and our "perceived" opinion is that there needs to be "real" improvement.
Don't forget for instance that we pilots also do our best to mitigate what we see as unsafe or questionable ATC instructions....:=
My Malaga Tale.....
B757 inbound to Martin and cleared to descend to 5500ft.....CB's all around, including one directly between us and Martin.
We advise approach that due weather we need right 15, and will then continue to Martin etc....
Approach advised that this is not possible, and that would we accept a left turn? (toward the high terrain:ooh:) and descend to 3000ft and pick up the localizer at 15 miles......
Advised ATC that this was not possible due to noise abatement (the sound of crunching aluminum impacting mountainside at 250kts) and that we needed a RIGHT turn.
ATC..NEGATIVE you have Nostrum Dash 8 traffic 5 miles behind catching you....
and so on and so on........just another day in Spanish airspace:hmm:

Bomber Harris

25th May 2007, 15:50

RYR738jockey, your voice recorder readout was the funniest thing. i could hear myself while reading it and i could hear the panic in my own voice!!

But on a serious note you came up with some really on the nose points they were:
"When in Spain...
1: I often find myself in a situation asking for confirmation/verification,
WITHOUT getting it.
2: the controller prioritizes according to his subjective perception, rather
than the ACTUAL situation. If I have a problem, I have to speak up in
order to get attention. Litterally using my voice.
3: I don't know what to expect. Changing ARR/SID/RWY...
4: I feel they don't care much about detailed knowledge. For instance, IFR
design parameters, MOCA's/MORA's/MSA's etc. MaÑana
5: ...last but, not least...Bad phraseology/language difficulties
Before you behead me, I don't have English as first language either."

Now a few people are still saying that things aren't that bad down there. I really dont know why they are calling you a liar! If lots of us say there is a problem, why do some people insist we are imagining it, and then compare spain to lagos? i wasn't on my college debating team, but some people here...well, need a lesson in logic!!

Bascially, ryr738jock has laid it all out. He has listed specific problems. I agree 110% and have experienced them ALL.

Can someone do something to fix them? And please dont make me puke by saying that you heard all this at heathrow and lagos so spain is really ok. when will you get it into your thick skulls. ITS NOT OK. THERE ARE PROBLEMS. these are safety issues, they need to be addressed, not compared with other countries.

Blaming it on culture is not acceptable. The spanish have fixed many problems and achieved great things throughout history with the same culture. why is it a problem for aviation and not any other walk of life in spain. This is an ORGANISATIONAL PROBLEM. This is a problem that ATC training and management need to take on board. They need to raise standards and stop the problems that 738jockey and every other jockey sees on a REGULAR BASIS.

rant over...call you back..

ATC Watcher

27th May 2007, 10:13

Bomb3r harris :
THERE ARE PROBLEMS. these are safety issues, they need to be addressed, not compared with other countries.

Blaming it on culture is not acceptable.

I disagree on both counts. You need to make comparisons to know where you are, where and you are going to compared to your goal.
What is that goal is the issue here : is it no incident/no accident. or is it a reduction of your actual number or incidents by ,say halving it in 2 years , or is it 10 to the minus 6 ( the ICAO standard ) etc...
You also then need to see where you stand in the EU average , since Eurocontrol PRC ( Preformance review commission )is going to audit you, and compare you.

Then you need to know where your priorities are : is it moving taffic , more capacity to eleminate delays, is it above all to please the airlines-custommers , or it is improving at all costs your safety margins ?
It you are, la country dependant on the Turism industry, the answer might be different , than in you are, let's say, in the North part of Europe.

Then you decide where to put the pressure : fixing problems of course, but compared to what ? the problem reported here so far : e.g "a Binter or an Iberia was cleared before me" , and I got an " unsafe " clearance below MSL once while I was in a turn, " is not going to impress top ATM officials much :hmm:.

Which bring me to culture : it is one of the most powerful element . I have learned that over the years. I use to say than in ATC to change a procedure takes 2 weeks, to change a working habbit or so called " Best Practice " is 6 months, but to change a culture is 20 Years "
Based on recent experience in my old Centre, ( re Hannover sectors for the initiated ) I would now say today , "over 30 years" .

Now my information is that Spain is tackling problems and been fixing its ATC at a much faster rate than many others. ( comparisons again !) I do not see a pattern of danger there ( unlike in teh USA at the moment with runway incursions for instance ) , and the reports are not coming from their major airspace users ( their natonal carriers ).

Culture.. Many here in this forum have a strong safety culture ( based on the UK system ) and would like to see this applied all over the world. Laudable wish, but different cultures move at different paces. The UK system is not the panacea either. Transposing it in a hurry to other cultures is definitively not the solution.

End of my ramblings : morale of the story, be tolerant for other cultures and be careful out there, and as I-FORD very correctly said :never delegate the supervision of your flight path to Controllers. Not in Spain, not in the UK, nowhere.

Bedder believeit

27th May 2007, 13:54

ATC Watcher:
"never delegate the supervision of your flight path to Controllers. Not in Spain, not in the UK, nowhere".

Generally, fine words, but I don't know if I fully agree with your last sentiment. One could say that it comes down to semantics about the intent, like or otherwise, what such words as "control", "supervise", "manage" and other like meaning words really do mean. Unfortunately, as time and technology drift by, then more and more aspects of piloting will likely be transferred to other areas, be they electronics, or the ground. By the same token, we may see various elements of "ground supervision" transferred to cockpit and electronics. Getting the three different groups (Aircraft Commander, Air Traffic Manager/Controller, and electronics/ computer) to all interface in an agreeable and like minded way has it's issues, and can be thoroughly contested for responsibilities. I guess you could intimate that the fairly recent collision over Germany/Switzerland is a good example of this "crisis in command". This is not a post that can shed light on resolving these issues, it's just the way I see things after more than 40 years in aviation.
Cheers ATC Watcher, I always enjoy reading your thoughtful posts.

sjm

27th May 2007, 15:04

BCN a couple of nights ago, vectors to 02, descended on reciprical heading to 757 also on vectors to 02 through his level "traffic" "traffic"
reduced at 30 miles out to 210.
left turn on downwind to intercept ILS again conflict with the same 757 (all a/c atc speed control)
vectored to within two miles of 757 who was told to reduce speed min app, then we were asked to maintain 180kts. already reduced to 160kts due closure rate on 757.
on informing atc already at 160 they became very annoyed asked to increase speed (at this point 757 1.5-1.7 miles ahead) due traffic behind, declined the invtation much to the displeasure of controller. (plate says 160 to 4dme).
ATC continued to rant for next two miles by which time 757 about to go around due no land clearance.
Absolute Crap controlling at every spanish airport I fly into a some point or other, gone around and directed to high ground in vmc with stop ALT 2000' below sector safe.
Generally I follow the SID/Star if offered short cuts, unless I have ground contact visually.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

CR-ASC

27th May 2007, 16:00

Today I had almost the same experience,
behind an airplane 3 miles and aproaching at a close rate,
BCN FINAL (119.1) keep 180 until 4 miles out (I was reducing already to 150)
Changed to tower : be advised you are behind an 737/800 that is 20 kts slower, continue the approach.
ME:Reduced to minimum approach speed.
BCN TWR to another aircraft behind me, your traffic is 40 kts slower, to another one behind us, the one in front of you is 70 kts slower.
Is this a controled airport where the aircraft are speed controled by ATC?
Anyway I landed after the aircraft in front of me expedited leaving the rwy of course with a late landing clearance and the one behind me as well, but it was a very close one.
Any comments regarding this situation?
Sorry this does not look professional in anywhere in the world and BCN airport
is being targeted to be a major hub in Southern Europe, not with this ATC.
I flew in all continents and this does not look an ATC of a major airport I saw much better ATC in the so called 3rd world countries and with worst working conditions for the ATC staff.

miles offtarget

27th May 2007, 16:02

Sorry to perpetuate my own thread, I'm sure that's runs against all internet good manners, however yesterday's approach into AGP around 1100Z just reiterated my original point so well, I had to share it with you.

Unusually AGP were landing on 31. Passing over Martin VOR at FL200 doing 300kts, we were told by Malaga approach turn left ten degrees cleared to establish on LLZ for 13 !

We were somewhat concerned as this reduced my track miles by around 50 and left me with quite a lot of energy to dissipate ! TCAS showed at least half a dozen other aircraft on the procedure for / taking vectors to the ILS 31, and all of my flying to date as been geared up to thinking of the runway as a one way street.

When I tried to confirm this, the controller eventually (very unconcerned) tells me that it was his mistake, and that 31 was in use. Did that heading still apply ? Is there a new cleared level ?

Eventually told to descend to 'crackle hiss whine mumble...thousand feet' downwind, it took three attempts for other pilot and I to get him to confirm that it was 6000ft.

A reasonable, but not strong wind from the west was blowing each aircraft through the 31 localiser and they each had to improvise a heading to re-establish from the right. Each of the three preceeding aircraft did this and told the controller, yet the vectors were the same for us.

We suggested that he might like to amend his vectors for the following company aircraft, but....he was vectored through too !

I don't want this to degenerate into a Spanish bashing thread, some of their controllers are very good. Just not that one !

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who was at AGP yesterday morning and recognises this. A Thompson crew ahead of me had similar problems too.

Cheers,

MoT

hotmetal

27th May 2007, 17:40

Flying into Barcelona a couple of months ago the Easy in front of us was asked to keep 200kts to the marker on 07. He politely replied he'd do his best. If I remember the marker is about 1200 - 1300' height and I guess Easy was a 737 or Airbus. That shows a total lack ofappreciation of the pilots situation from ATC.

belk78

29th May 2007, 10:45

you really don´t want to perpetuate the thread?
To be honest guys, i was interested at the beginning, but now i´m starting to be fed up with all this.
I am currently at the atc school here in Spain, and have talked about this thread with some people there. I can assure you we try to improve as much as possible, i´ll try to use the english language as much as possible, but people make mistakes, and if you GENERALIZE you are making a mistake too.
I don´t know what used to happen 30 years ago, but NOW we are NOT taught to give priority to anyone, others than emergency fligts.
Guys, your point is made.
If you don´t want to perpetuate the thread, don´t keep on doing it.

Caudillo

29th May 2007, 11:12

No Belk, everyone has moved on from the priority argument.

Now we're discussing incomptence instead.

belk78

29th May 2007, 11:37

I was referring to the whole thread, not only the priority stuff.
Discuss what you want, i still say the same, you won´t get anything from generalizing but annoying people.

Nil further

29th May 2007, 11:53

ALC last night , RWay in use 10 , surface wind not avail on ATIS ,5000ft wind 310/47 , 3000ft wind 300/28 , 1000ft wind 280/25. Tower report surface wind as "calm".
I had briefed and flown accordingly, meanwhile there is an Iberia on the arc behind us asking our a/c type speed etc(i think , my spanish is limited) and closing very fast accordingy to our TCAS .at touch down , our aircraft showed the surface wind as 280/15 k.
Allowing for a margin of error of say 30 % , which is pretty unlikely in the aircraft kit , even with that there is no way that the wind was "calm"
Its exactly this sort of thing that is repeated every day that concerns pilots about Spanish ATC.
The only moment of relief in the entire evening was watching the antics of a Spanair MD80 who flew one of those tightly curved spanish visual's only to roll out at 500 and discover the "spanish calm" ,interesting go-around.

29th May 2007, 13:37

Belk,

No-one is trying to annoy anyone. All we are stating is that there are certain elements of ATC in Spain which leave a lot to be desired. In your role as a Trainee (?) ATCO you are in a unique position to raise awareness of this thread to your tutors/instructors. The "don't perpetuate this thread" line isn't going to work.

I too have experienced 45 knot tailwinds off the arc from VILNA into ALC and it's not a comfortable position to be in. Personally I'm be back at 160 knots at that point with that sort of wind - if one of the locals isn't (and will probably have a ground speed nudging 280+ hitting the glide) then that's entirely his problem. "Calm" is now known as "Spanish Calm" to my trainees -i.e. expect a tailwind. So we are being told one thing when the reality is something different - that's not on and probably illegal on the part of the controller. What would happen following (god forbid) an accident if it was proved that the "calm" was in fact a 15 tail.

BCN, PMI, MAD, ALC are the most "difficult" - not always but usually. At AGP they sometimes are unable to give descent but WILL NOT take the initiative and vector you. How many times have I seen a profile deviation of +6000' heading towards MAR - and they just don't seem to realise that you cannot get the height off........

I've been vectored onto 24L at PMI (landing runway on ATIS and ILS still radiating) even though it was covered in vehicles doing runway work...... fortuately it was a clear night and I was able to spot/query what was going on. 30 mins after we landed the ATIS was STILL giving 24L as landing runway.:ugh: MOR duly filed. What if the cloud base had been 200' ? A very late GA and some pretty scared workmen (let alone pilots!) I've been cleared to lineup and take-off 24R at PMI with traffic on final.....

I've been cleared to land on 25L at BCN when runway in use was 07L. On the same night I was cleared take-off 07L even though I was on 07R. Can't remember if it's a common tower freq for both R/W's but if anyone was short final for 07L.....

The problem is it's got to the point where we just accept it "because it's Spain". But why don't Spanish controllers understand that you cannot fly 200 knots to 3.5D? Why do they not realise that having a 50 knot tailwind at 4000 feet on the approach might cause us a bit of difficulty. Why are trainee Spanish ATCO's not aware of this - BELK?

I've also witnessed loads of "interesting" (unquestionably unstable) approaches - why do they do it? Culture? Loss of face? Lack of training? Lack of awareness? Lack of monitoring (OFDM/FLIDRAS)? I'm not racist or xenophobic but I cannot understand why things don't improve and are allowed to continue in this way.

WE ALL WORK AND OPERATE IN THE SAME AIRSPACE AND ARE THEREFORE ENTITLED TO A MINIMUM LEVEL OF PROFESSIOANLISM FROM ALL PILOTS AND ATCO's. Why should MY workload be significantly increased because I'm trying to figure out what's going on around me. Trying to build a mental model at someof these places is nigh on impossible (especially when ATC talk in Spanish - but that's another discussion completely). We file ASR's/MOR's but I have only seen the status quo maintained for years. Agreed, traffic levels have significantly increased - but that's the argument for a SIGNIFICANT improvement in the quality of ATC - if it's creaking under pressure well it's just a matter of time. An accident waiting to happen is a phrase that springs to mind.

Sorry it's a bit long winded.

A4

belk78

29th May 2007, 16:39

Yes, you´re right, i remember our last lesson, the instructor said "up to 20 knots = wind calm"... Do you really think that´s possible? Do you really think someone can do that on purpose? or beacuse of a lack of training? or because he belongs to a different race?
I was just saying that everyone makes mistakes, the thing is we all have to improve instead of just blame or bash.
Well, i don´t want to say "do not perpetuate this" and be the first one doing it, so i´ll stop posting.
Ciao.

29th May 2007, 17:09

Hello BELK

Thx for the quick reply. No I don't think that Spanish ATCO's are taught "upto 20 knots = calm", but on very regular occaisions I have been told calm and IT IS NOT!!!!!!! It's a noticable tailwind and you can feel it after landing when you do the walk round. So why do we get told it's calm? That is not a mistake on the part of the ATCO - he has a wind reading in front of him...... so is it done "on purpose"?

The only conclusion is preferential runway for arrivals. Herein lies the danger. BAe146 that crashed at LSZH/ZRH during a Non Precision Approach to R/W 28. The more sensible runway (with ILS) commenced its approach over German airspace but it was late so "unavailable"........

B747 off the end at EHAM/AMS during a huge crosswind approach because 27 arrives over a residential area and it was late so "unavail........

BELK please don't duck out of the discussion - no one is "having a go". We, as Professional pilots, operate in Spanish airspace and we have legitamate concerns over the quality of the service we recieve at some airports and wonder why it never improves. Perhaps you could raise this with your instructors? For me the biggest concerns are (lack of) speed control at BCN/MAD and tailwind landings when it is "calm".

A4 :)

Sonnendec

30th May 2007, 00:56

Hello again.

To my surprise, you just read the posts you want to read, or my english is so bad that i can´t get myself to be understood.

Anyway, again, you are talking about a problem that has nothing to do with the controller in charge. If the controller has the "wind calm" information, he/she will give you "wind calm". If he has another information, he will give it to you. And that´s all. But you guys don´t even suppose that the controller has a (again i have to take your word) wrong information, you assume the controller is incompetent. And that´s something that i will not accept.

British pilots need a separate thread also, but (for obvious reasons) not in Pprune.

Belk (sorry guys for the spanish):

Pasa. Los que llevamos por aquí un tiempo ya lidiamos con este tipo de anglocentrismo desde hace ni se sabe, estudia mucho y mira la parte de los foros (de este o del que sea) que te sirva de algo, pero no les hagas ni caso. Lo suyo es pilotar, lo tuyo controlar. Un saludo y suerte.

Best regards.

Mister Slot

30th May 2007, 07:20

Sonnendec,

This is not about British pilots but the English language and its use in aviation.

For example, the most professional demonstration of this I have heard was some years ago. A Lufthansa pilot checked in speaking German. The Rhine sector controller replied in English saying "For the benefit of all of us and flight safety, please speak English." He was a guy who truly understood why we have an agreed common tongue. To the chagrin of the French particularly, it just happens to be English.

Rananim

30th May 2007, 07:21

Bit of a nasty thread which wont convince the Spanish/South Americans to change their ways,if their ways need changing which I frankly doubt.We've all seen bad ATC from time to time,even in parts of the world where it is normally exceptional.
In general,their ATCO's are proficient but not polished.

Sonnendec

30th May 2007, 08:02

Mr. Slot,

this thread is not about english and its use in aviation, but about spanish controller´s proficiency. By the way, what you have said about the german guy denotes your lack of knowledge about international aviation rules.

Best regards.

Mister Slot

30th May 2007, 09:31

With respect Sonnendec, my statement identifies no lack of understanding of the rules. If anything it shows your lack of understanding of his professionalism. The German controller wanted everyone singing from the same hymn sheet so we ALL new what was happening.

Despite it being legal, multi-lingual R/T is simply dangerous and has cost lives. It is a fact that the further east and south you go in Europe the more prevalent it becomes.

Sonnendec

30th May 2007, 10:05

Mr. Slot:

The german controller is applying the international rules, since german is NOT an ICAO language. Spanish controllers are applying the international rules because spanish IS an ICAO language and the pilots have the right to be cleared in spanish. Where is the professionalism difference between them? are you asking us to disobey the law?

M609

30th May 2007, 10:08

I think it's sad that people trying to promote safe practices (ex. one R/T language) are shot down with the usual "it's all legal to use language xx, and you evedently do not understand international law" etc etc.

Many things are legal in aviation, just not very reccomended.

It's legal to fly trough a active Danger Area, just not wise.
It's legal fly your cessna as close as possible to a large jet in VMC in certain classes of airspace, it's just not something I want to do myself.
It's legal to fly from A to B in an aircraft VFR with only 45 minues reserves in marginal weather....... I don't do that eighter.

Se a pattern?

I fear we will still have the language discussion in 10 years here on pprune, unless is causes a major bang before then.

As for Spanish ATC proficiency, I pray that things are better then outlined here, otherwise it's scary!

:uhoh:

TE RANGI

30th May 2007, 10:25

One of the problems about Spanish ATC is the lack of consistency. While undoubtedly some controllers strive to do a good job most of their colleagues lack of proficiency borders on the downright dangerous.

I suspect they simply deny their shortcomings just because they don't know any better. It would do the Spanish controllers a great favour to take a tour outside their borders, and see how German, British, Dutch, etc ATCOS do a far more professional (and safer) job.

Sonnendec:

This thread is not to hurt your feelings, but that's just how the majority of pilots in Europe feel about the quality of Spanish ATC. They fly to many destinations, all the time. Why do you think they've picked on Spain and not any other country?

If you wish I can arrange for you a jumpseat in the cockpit to anywhere you like within Europe, so that you can compare Spanish ATC with all the others. I'll leave it up to you then to decide if we are right. Do you accept the challenge?

beamer

30th May 2007, 10:45

Sonnendec

Is it a question of Spanish controllers and pilots who are quite capable of using English trying to make a point or perhaps having to deal with some pilots associated with smaller turboprop operators who cannot speak English to the required standard. As an Englishman I am fortunate to speak the generally agreed 'language of aviation' as my mother tongue - I'm pretty reasonable at understanding French as i does comes up from time to time but Spanish particuarly when spoken quickly is rather beyond me - though the word 'Binter' always seems to attract my attention !

Sonnendec

30th May 2007, 10:56

M609:

I respect all the opinions, such us that using other language than english is nos safe, but you can´t say that we are not professionals because we obey the law. That was my point, nothing else.

Te Rangi:

Of course, i accept. There´s a lack of understanding about air traffic control in this forum, and that´s because you are pilots and we are controllers. I don´t try to teach you how to pilot a plane, and you are trying to evaluate our atc proficiency no matter what i have said in my other posts. Well...

threemiles

30th May 2007, 11:14

and the pilots have the right to be cleared in spanish.
Thats where it starts, pilots using their rights.

andrijander

30th May 2007, 11:41

I think I've said this before but I'll try and re-phrase it to make it clearer. It's not what some of you say...but the way it is said.

M609,

(for example) if you feel sad...well, it's not under our responsibilities as ATCO's to care for your psichycal wellfare. I know you don't really get that sad (or rather hope?) and that what you mean is that you don't like to see that case you point happening. You know what? I actually think you may be right though in making your point. 1 language may be better for situational awareness. But that doesn't allow for certain ways of saying things(there may be better examples but it's getting long enough so I just picked this one). I must say though that I, sometimes, use spanish also: for freq change, squawk chg, to call someone's attention or, once, to comment a problem that had happened regarding an spanish carrier route (crew had different from the one approved by cfmu) Now, knowing that situational awareness plays no role whatsoever on all of the above...can't I do that neither? Everybody will have an opinion for this one I assume ;)

Also take into account that, as sad as it may be, sonnendec is also right. When the bussines started rules were laid down and this was agreed. Wanna change the rules? Do it the right way -if we check the name of the thread it's not about the language but it keeps creeping up here and, anyway, an internet forum is not going to change the real thing-.

One thing I would like to read more often perhaps is, when someone complaints about a given situation, please mention what you would have expected from that situation. For example: I have a colleague, now ATCO, but that was a pilot before. He's told me he remembers one time he was established on final and had visual w the preceding traffic and the controller stuck in front of him an A/c for landing (so he went from being nr 2 to nr 3 when at 8 miles from threshold). No infringment of any rule, no loss of separation...but he would have liked to know from beforehand. Maybe a lack of style? perhaps. But not illegal nor unsafe. Point being this colleague and his co-pi would've liked to know. If I would ever be on an app radar or twr and see it happening I'll keep that in mind. Was the guy back then and there working the app told? Don't think so.

Now I try to give tfc info when I can but it doesn't mean I'll do it all the time.

Please be constructive,
A.

groc

30th May 2007, 12:06

In Spain there are ATCOs, "former" pilots, that use to say that many things depend on the glass you are looking through: screen or cockpit.
Cheers.

Mach trim

30th May 2007, 17:22

In my humble opinion.

The problems are latent in the system.

We discussed this before see Barcelona ATC/Ground collision

In Spain the controllers are not going to hold your hand.

You have to be pro active and adapt to their style. They will not change completely, so deal with it.

They will get you when you least expect it.

Well said the problem is consistancy.

There are excellent controllers and others who have no business being there in Spain.

The sub standard controllers should be removed.

In Barcelona or Madrid you have to do your own speed reductions for traffic separation. Tell the controllers your speed change of course.

If you blindly follow the controllers as in Amsterdam, you will be doing many go arounds in Spain and hitting wake turbulence.

Your game has to be better in Spain.

As a pilot turn up your Situational Awareness a level. Expect the worst and hope for the best.

A number of the Spanish ATC do not have the capacity to do the job when things get hot.

This is a Spanish ATC training/standards issue.

It is not only language it involves situational awareness, the natural ability to make quick mental calculations and give vectors.

I've spoken to Spanish guys about the hiring and selection process perhaps there is too much of an emphasis on exams and not what a person can do on the radar screen ?

Spanish culture is part of the problem and solution.

Spanish pride does get in the way sometimes. We all make mistakes so`let us admit them.

There is a problem in the system so admit it ? The safety reports back this up.

For the Spanish ATC guys Please enlighten us and explain if we are missing something here. I am here to learn.

Sonnendec

30th May 2007, 17:41

Mach trim,

Thank you very much for your post, it´s really fresh air for us.

We are as good as the worst of us. I think that can be the sentence that resumes the situation you encounter sometimes around here. We have to raise the standards of a few, but is not a generalised issue. We need continuous formation and we are fighting since a long time to get it, but, once again, spanish authorities are very very slow, specially if it´s a matter of money.

More coming soon...

Best regards.

LeggyMountbatten

30th May 2007, 18:23

I fear we will still have the language discussion in 10 years here on pprune, unless is causes a major bang before then.

Try BEA report on F-GHED and G-SSWN
http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2000/g-wn000525/htm/g-wn000525.html
Section 3.2 Causes Probables:
"Ont contribué à l'accident : L'emploi de deux langues pour les radiocommunications, qui a supprimé la possibilité pour l'équipage du Shorts de réaliser que le MD 83 allait décoller."

The collision has been discussed before but I don't think the language comment has been highlighted.

aviaticus

30th May 2007, 20:15

You are right. These are the Countries that were the founders of ICAO recomendations, which JAA took as the platform at which to continue upgrading the safety rules. I am flying actively, almost every day through their airspace and what can I say... It is at very edge of safe flying.:(

ATC Watcher

30th May 2007, 20:33

Since this has tuned out to become another language thread , my usual pinch of salt on the wound :

Mister slot :
Despite it being legal, multi-lingual R/T is simply dangerous and has cost lives. .

The problem with multi lingual R/T is just the opposite : it is not dangerous and has not cost many lives as you say. If it had, then it would be easy to argue in the ICAO council everytime the subject comes on the table.

Even States that did not have it, had to implement it on this very argument ( e.g Canada)

Sonnendec :
I really admire your courrage here .

Just a friendly correction when you said :
The german controller is applying the international rules, since german is NOT an ICAO language. Spanish controllers are applying the international rules because spanish IS an ICAO language and the pilots have the right to be cleared in spanish.

The fact to be an ICAO language or not has nothing to do with this. The legal basis to use national language on the R/T is an ICAO convention article which says that the language to be used on the R/T is the language of the Country overflown , and in absence of agreement, English shall be used or made available (i.e though an interpreter ).
Every State can use his national language in addition to English. Most do.

And for info Germany uses German on the R/T at its regional airports .

haughtney1

30th May 2007, 21:33

The problem with multi lingual R/T is just the opposite : it is not dangerous and has not cost many lives as you say. If it had, then it would be easy to argue in the ICAO council everytime the subject comes on the table.

OK I'm confused with this comment..........

You are saying multi-lingual ATC is a good thing? or at the very least...not an impediment to situational awareness and flight safety???? or that you don't feel it increases/decreases the chances of an incident based upon its uses and limitations?

Please clarify...

toro01

30th May 2007, 21:38

mach trim, what do you exactly mean when you say that "Spanish culture is part of the problem" can you be more specific because that sounds to me vague and general.

1.- What do you know about spanish culture?
2.- Are you a spanish citizen?
3.- Can you speak fluent spanish to be able to understand what people actually mean when they speak?

PD The Spanish armada finished in the eighteen century, the Spanish inquistion finished around that time, I don´t dress as a bullfighter and I have running water and electricity in my house. I however still go to bed late because I love spanish life style(may be millions of brits love it it too, at least in LEMG)

Chilli Monster

30th May 2007, 21:44

The problem with multi lingual R/T is just the opposite : it is not dangerous and has not cost many lives as you say. If it had, then it would be easy to argue in the ICAO council everytime the subject comes on the table.

I cannot believe I've just read this, especially from someone with such experience.

1) Inex Adria DC9 v BEA Trident: Gradimir Tasic, when he realised what was happening, slipped back into Croat to give instructions to the DC9 - The BEA crew had no idea what was going on. Had they had the situational awareness of hearing what was happening it's possible things could have been different

2) SH360 Runway collision - LFPG. The streamline crew had no idea what was going on, again because of the dual language scenario.

Not many lives? 1 life is 1 too many - how many do you consider acceptable?

Sonnendec

31st May 2007, 00:30

Wrong.

Number 1 accident had nothing to do with the language issue.

And there is an essay (i´m looking for it, as soon as i find it i´ll post the link here) stating that the most frequent "language problems" are between english-speaking pilots and controllers from different countries... so...

I agree with you, everyone should be british :ugh:

Sonnendec

31st May 2007, 00:36

Oh, by the way: ATC Watcher, thanks a lot for your remarks :D

Chilli Monster

31st May 2007, 05:06

Sonnendec - I never said no.1 was caused by it, just that the outcome could have been different.

Read what is said - not what you think is said.

E. MORSE

31st May 2007, 07:46

By the way,

Why is it that almost all of the spanish aviators end their call with the phrase "con autorizado"

It always makes me smile, as if it is possible without "autorizado".

groc

31st May 2007, 10:08

Hello E. MORSE,
"almost all of the spanish aviators end their call with the phrase 'como autorizado' "
Well, this is not true. As the "others", they use to report the full clearance.
Cheers.

Sonnendec

31st May 2007, 10:38

Well, groc, it depends. In Canarias it´s very usual.

"Como autorizado" means "as cleared".

groc

31st May 2007, 11:03

:confused:

Sonnendec

31st May 2007, 11:07

What don´t you understand?

Doctor Cruces

31st May 2007, 11:40

Come to the thread late, so apologies.

I back up Flying Torqwrench's insistance that Spanish Aircrew get preference.

We were in Alicante some years ago and received an hour delay when we called for clearance. The first officer, from a Spanish speaking nation, got on the horn to ask the reason why (in Spanish of course) and we got an immediate clearance to push and start.

He therefore, is correct. It may not happen always but it does happen.

Doc C.

Sonnendec

31st May 2007, 11:43

Doctor Cruces,
As long as i know, as i see and as i work, it DOESN´T happen. I can´t tell about "years ago". But not now.
And the example is in your own post: "from a spanish-speaking nation". So... i assume he WASN´T spanish........ now we give preference to anyone who can speak spanish? please...
Best regards.

ATC Watcher

31st May 2007, 12:30

haughtney1 :

You are saying multi-lingual ATC is a good thing? or at the very least...not an impediment to situational awareness and flight safety???? or that you don't feel it increases/decreases the chances of an incident based upon its uses and limitations?

Please clarify...

I see that my English is not that clear :

1- I am definitively not for multi lingual ATC. I believe that in airspace where there is multinational IFR operations only English Phraseology should be used.
2. It is indeed an impediment to situation awareness, espacially in airports ground operations..
3. But he current statistics do not support that using multi language in R/T is unsafe. And that is the problem, if you want to change the current policy.

Is it clearer now ?

Unless you can prove with hard facts, not impressions , that it is unsafe, you are not going to change the current political stalemate in ICAO.
Because there are many advantages for a State or an ATC service Provider to operate and teach its employees ( pilots and controllers ) in their national language. It is not per se nationalism, it is more an economic issue.

Chili Monster :

1) Inex Adria DC9 v BEA Trident: Gradimir Tasic, when he realised what was happening, slipped back into Croat to give instructions to the DC9 - The BEA crew had no idea what was going on. Had they had the situational awareness of hearing what was happening it's possible things could have been different

2) SH360 Runway collision - LFPG. The streamline crew had no idea what was going on, again because of the dual language scenario.

Not many lives? 1 life is 1 too many - how many do you consider acceptable?

Old rumours die hard. The reports of those 2 accidents are availbale on the net, I suggest you read them again , especially the CVR transcripts to see that what you say is not completely correct.

1) Zagreb : the remark in Serbo Croat was refering to " the level you are passing now ". the initial call by the DC9 (estimating ZAG at same time as the HS21 ) that could have raised situation awareness to the BEA crew, was done in English. See the HS21 CVR to see what the crew was discussing at the time.
Using Serbo croat instead of English in the last seconds was definitively not a cause, nor a contributing factor in this accident.

2) On the Shorts in CDG, there it is different: The inquiry identified 3 causes for the accident : 1) the controller had a wrong perception of where the aircrfat were. 2) the way ATC worked then it made it impossible to detect errors made and 3) the Shorts crew did not quiery where the number 1 was upon accepting the conditional clearance.
The inquiry board then listed 6 contribution factors, and indeed one is about the use of 2 languages in R/T.

There might be 3 of 4 accidents in the ICAO database where dual R/T can be listed as a contribution factor. There is none ( as far as I know) listing it as the primary cause.. The proponents of keeping the curent situation are using those facts not to change anything.

As to how many lives do I consider acceptable, none of course. But If I had unlimited ressources and I was allowed 3 wishes in aviation,I would probably use them solving other priorities that are claiming far more lives than Spanish on the R/T.

haughtney1

31st May 2007, 12:47

Thanks ATC watcher for the clarification....:ok:
I can't help thinking however (coloured by my own experience) that we pilots do our very best to mitigate against the problems that ATC impose (particularly the Spanish) and with skill and cunning, get the job done in a safe and efficient manner.
Sonnendec and his colleagues can protest all they like regarding the quality of service offered, the preferential treatment of certain local operators, and the liberal use of language that isn't widely understood........the fact remains however, that myself and a large majority of my colleagues place very little faith in a system and individuals who are supposed to improve flight safety, rather than, as the anecdotal evidence suggests on this thread..degrade it.

tolgab

31st May 2007, 17:58

Before I go ahead, please keep in mind that this is personal opinion.

First the LANGUAGE:

I believe there is a reason why spanish is an ICAO language and controllers have to use it if pilots call in spanish.

AFAIK foreign language has been a problem in spain since Franco times. Few could learn foreign language and they opted for french mostly. (probably cause they are neighbours and easier to learn for a spaniard). English wasn't much appreciated back then as I understand, because the only relation they had with the british involved Gibraltar!

If you wanted to have pilots in spain and wanted them to get to learn english as well, you had trouble. Who will teach them the english. English is picking up only just now, with the current generation. Why should you speak in English in your own airspace anyhow? Only those that flew international needed the international radio operators certificate.

There are still many local pilots who dont speak English, not a single word... So the controllers are obliged to respond in spanish to those pilots who make the first call in spanish.

The COMPETENCY;
I do not know the systems at spanish ATC, how advanced or user friendly they are, but don't judge an ATC before having that information. You all speak about how good the ATC is in N.Europe, do you also know how advanced their systems are and how much the systems support the controllers? If we can work such high traffic over here it is not only because we are good, probably the best;), but also how much the system helps us.

Also the rules, the changes in the rules and conditions, amount of controllers and work hours per controllers, capacity... there are heck a lot of things behind..

Things probably can and will improve in spain, afaik they are having huge increases in amount of traffic, and they are trying to adopt as good as they can.

threemiles

31st May 2007, 18:38

To assist Sonnendec little to nothing that was complained about here is to be noted in the Canarias TMA

Not being, but speaking both Spanish and English I note:
- preference to a Binter, never heard, they line up behind you as they should
- winds calm is not a meteorological phenomena known there
- loss of ground clearance, not a concern, most vectors go over sea and around the islands or ground contact is required for directs
- English is used by some controllers when traffic is conflicting in ACC or on Las Palmas final director when traffic is high, could be much more, though

A few remarks:
- vectors sometimes appear to be very long especially to TS 08 from the west, when no traffic around plus early speed control, also separation up to 10 NM+ regularily noted (maybe a training airport?)
- what concerns me are "final vectors" (which is a dog leg in another terminology) heading towards the mountains and without ILS clearance. E.g. on GC 03L you get a 345 or 360 heading and the ILS clearance comes not before turning to final yourself. At night, if the ILS fails or stick mic occurs...
- on downwind to 03L you are never sure whether a visual is an option by ATC or not. Therefore sometimes you come in too high to make it a visual inside LPC although all Binters preceeding do it (and they are fast) and you are the only one riding the ILS from 13 miles out, sometimes you are planned to be down to 2500 abeam the field but are number 5 on approach

3NM

Mach trim

31st May 2007, 19:10

Toro, I like your name.Classic post. :ok:

" The Spanish armada finished in the eighteen century, the Spanish inquistion finished around that time, I don´t dress as a bullfighter and I have running water and electricity in my house. I however still go to bed late because I love spanish life style(may be millions of brits love it it too, at least in LEMG) "
I am surprised that you do not dress up as a bullfighter.
Glad to hear you have running water in your house.

Ok let me extrapolate on Spanish culture

The beauty of it is your reaction to my post has in fact in part answered your own question about what Spanish culture has to do with it. Think about it.
All cultures have their strengths and weaknessess.
We
As the Germans can be too structured but are well organized, and may not be flexible.
The Spanish are a very proud people. Do you agree ?
Can this pride get in the way of efficient ATC ?
Can the Spanish or Italian machismo get in the way of improving ATC like by using foreigners (who may have a better ATC system.) ?

Culturally Autocratic leadership is a negative behaviour and perhaps it is inherent in the system ?

The Spanish controllers do not have the competiveness or one upmanship in dealing with pilots as we find in others countries. This I like.

Surprisingly in the Professor Hofstede cross-cultural study done over 50 countries Spain ranked high 86 in the uncertainty avoidance area as a culture.
Uncertainty avoidance is how well a culture deals with novelty and ambiguity.

As for your questions. You may be a wind up artist if not....

1.- What do you know about spanish culture?
What does this have to do with Spanish ATC ? What is your point ?

2.- Are you a spanish citizen? Why do you ask ?
What does this matter, I could be.
I have been a Spanish resident for over 6 years and married to a Spanish woman.

3.- Can you speak fluent spanish to be able to understand what people actually mean when they speak?
I speak Spanish fluently and a little Catalan as well.

Caudillo

31st May 2007, 19:43

For what it's worth here's my two pesos worth.

And to hopefully qualify it somewhat I speak as a UK pilot having operated throughout Europe, including all of these Spanish airports mentioned. Fluent Spanish speaker, lived in a couple of latin countries yada yada yada.
Gents, I think it boils down to, or at least stems from, national cultures being reflected in aviation culture. German was mentioned earlier - ie highly proficient and organised, which is what most of us would consider our German friends to be, even if they themselves may not.

*Generalisation follows*

Spain, Italy etc - are cavalier to an extent, if compared with the Brits, I feel that a good example of this is to be found in the extant "fully ready" thread. People there discussing how this one emphatic word doesn't appear in the CAP, how it needs definition, how it's tautologous etc. Entirely uncalled for unless, dare it say it, autistic. Hardly the sort of folks with whom I'd necessarily want to go for a drink, although alas, I must on occasion. We have very rigid SOPs and a mentality such to the extent that we have pilots afraid of flying their aircraft, whilst being able to lecture on the intrinsic composition of a switch.

In other countries, where dare I say it, life is more for living, there is less of this, and more of a self-reliant attitude. Yes, it's also more risky. Five minutes on the road for example should serve to underline this. Either viewpoint is anathema to the other, although more so from the more conservative to the less so. Spanish ATC practices reflect all the above I believe.

One thing that doesn't help is the hysteria which certain posters feel necessary to invoke in their posts when telling of their latest death defying jaunt to Alicante or wherever. Give me a break.

It is not that dangerous. It is more dangerous than the UK. Our approach to aviation has become so strongly risk-averse that this thread reagrding Spanish ATC has come to life. I don't advocate playing the fool, digging a fatal hole for ones self or ones passengers. Safety is the main concern, not having fun. However, although the ATC in Spain is not as good as the UK - it does not follow that it must be Certain risks are acceptable, and I believe that operations into Spain fall below this tolerance.

We do not need to be afraid of everything.

Mach trim

31st May 2007, 19:53

Caudillo,

Well put I agree with you,completey

Radar

31st May 2007, 19:55

Caudillo,

Great post mate! Let's not get carried away. A buddy of mine had a string of 'occurrences' which left him with the impression EDDF controllers had a contract out on him. S£!t happens to various and varying degrees in all locations.

haughtney1

31st May 2007, 19:56

Fair enough Caudillo, you make your points clearly.
One question though, why do I feel more at risk going into AGP or ALC, than I ever did going into Accra, or mayby Malabo?...actually, its a rhetorical question; The very reason I feel more at risk is the very thing you have pointed out "Safety is the main concern", personally I believe the level of competency on display from my own experiences takes me above the tolerance level of what I consider safe.
I don't give two sh%ts about what cultural differences exist, or indeed if there is such a thing when it comes to Spanish ATC, what I do care about are the 200 or so pax who place their faith in the crew to get them to their destination safe and sound. It doesn't appear to be a cultural thing when you get a vector placing you at serious risk of burying the thing into the side of a mountain.

ATC Watcher

31st May 2007, 20:23

Very well written Caudillo. Good rethoric and good points.

finalschecks

31st May 2007, 22:24

the area controllers sound like they are talking to you on a 1950's radio, underwater in a bath.

wow wow wow,

THAT is exactly what most UK controllers sound like !
Talking into their thin cans and issuing vectors all over the place except my filed airway!

Spain may suck, but try italy, greece, AF, SAM, CAM, not to MENTION asia !
Just keep your eyes and ears open, it's your life !

If you fly into spain more than 10 times a week, get a language course.

fox niner

31st May 2007, 23:19

If you fly into spain more than 10 times a week, get a language course.

If you get more than 10 foreign aircraft at your airfield per week, get a language course.

And stop comparing Spain to Africa. They should get their act together. Their ATC peers are in Europe, not some Banana Republic in the tropics.

Rananim

1st Jun 2007, 06:57

Haughtney,
Nothing is black and white in this world.You might think that English only ATC is the safest and logic is certainly on your side.However,there are circumstances where an ATCO can more easily manage a situation by addressing an aircraft in their common native tongue,and vice-versa.
How many missed calls or incorrrect readbacks do we hear on the radio every day?Do you really think the average pilot can derive good situational awareness by listening to the commands given to other traffic?They might hear but do they listen?At busy airports,crews have enough on their plate just getting their own taxi instructions right.Whilst a good crew will monitor other calls,can they really derive good SA all of the time by doing so?
Position and hold and takeoff clearances on a runway with both intersection/full length departures should be done in ENGLISH I agree.Same goes for takeoff/landing clearances on intersecting runways(good example is the old layout at BCN).
The reality is that trust between an ATCO and a pilot is implicit.Additionally,we have TCAS and they have their computer backups too.Pilots can help ATCO's in all kinds of ways and they should really do so when at all possible.Unfortunately,some dont just to make a point.And ATCO's can help pilots above and beyond separation as well(EAL401 might have been saved by a sharp ATCO).
Finally,and it has to be said I'm afraid;a lot of Brits(and maybe a few Yanks) go to these far flung places expecting the ATC to be like blightey/uncle Sam.It is different;you cant colloquialize,the tempo's unfamiliar and you will hear other languages.But if you remember that the worst disaster in aviation history happened on the ground and everybody was communicating in English at the time,then you will realise that nothing in life is for sure.If you do x,you will get y.Well..maybe,maybe not.

TE RANGI

1st Jun 2007, 07:06

This thread has grown to be 9 pages long because there is a genuine concern among the pilot community that the increase in high density traffic together with poor ATC standards in Spain may bring unacceptable risks. It is not about personal preferences, collective bashings, or national or cultural comparisons. It is about safety.

And yet some posters pretend that it’s all in our heads, that we are biased against Spain and that Spanish ATC is as good as any. Well, to put things in perspective let me use a few points to illustrate:

Where in Europe when checking in on a new freq you regularly have to call two, or three or more times to get a response? All over Spain.

Where in Europe do you have to constantly remind ATC of approaching altitude to avoid unnecessary and inefficient level-offs? Spain.

Where does ATC issue speed reductions and then forget about it, prompting the crew to further adjust the speed on their own? Madrid and Barcelona.

Where does ATC exhibit a total lack of understanding of speed control and jet performance? Spain.

Where are the most inane (and confusing) taxi clearances issued? MAD, BCN, CDG.

Where are you often vectored to intercept the LOC at a 60-70º angle (and above GS)? BCN rwy 07.

Where are you almost guaranteed of a go around if you blindly adhere to ATC speeds? BCN and MAD.

Where are you vectored over high ground, told to intercept the LOC above the GS and at the same time instructed a speed reduction? MAD rwy 18.

Where is there some confusion as to being cleared to the Left or Right runway during simultaneous parallel approaches? MAD rwy 33 or 18.

Where is the most impossibly complex airspace? MAD (look at their missed approach procedures).

Which airports require more Jeppesen plates than any other to do the same job? MAD and BCN.

Where have I been cleared for an ILS, Glide Slope only, No Localizer approach? Malaga.

Where do most controllers have but a very basic knowledge of the English language, making other than bread and butter communications difficult? All over Spain (and possibly other places).

Where is non standard, unprofessional phraseology often used (e.g. issuing a clearance without mentioning the aircraft call sign)? BCN and MAD.

Where is the simultaneous use of two different languages lead to a dangerous lack of situational awareness? Spain, France and Russia.

What is my personal count of TCAS RAs? USA: 2; Spain:3; Rest of the world put together: Zero

Nil further

1st Jun 2007, 07:08

Claudillo , nice post . . . . . . . . however
We have all heard of the accident chain , in my post above , i know now that the wind at touchdown must have been around 15k on the tail , NOT CALM .
If that is not the "first link in the chain" i dont know what is .When you add on the next link of the IBeria behind us chasing up our tail at 300 k and the kamikaze viuals of the Spanair men then the chain is forming , only one more link and you have an accident/incident.
Lets say i had a junior colleague as PF, he floats long in the tail wind and then its all looking a bit tight , and as you are habituallly cleared to land whilst the other guy is still on the runway . . . . . . . . . . .
I dont see that getting loads of radar vectors in the UK is in anyway analgous to telling the crew of a 100 tonne aircraft that the wind is calm when in fact there is a tailwind that exceeds the aircrafts certification !
Grow up guys its not an attack on Spanish culture ,Spanish men ,Spanish women or Spanish airlines . All i want is the truth about the weather conditions and an acknowledgement that standards could be improved at most of the Spanish major airports.
There are some regional airports in the UK that really need to pull their socks up as well ,in many cases they have not changed their procedures for thirty years .The seperation on final at GLA & EDI springs to mind ! Self vectoring and establishing at 40DME at BFS is another.:ugh:

Cough

1st Jun 2007, 07:28

Ok my take on this subject...
May I start with the Italians...I do like the way that they operate. I like the fact that the majority of conversation with Italian speaking aircraft is in English. I can then follow the traffic picture, whilst Italian chat does go on to resolve the 'other stuff' (I don't object to this and is more effective for the more complex stuff) the majority is in English and that is important. As for being more 'Cavalier' they are getting better and better. I prefer operating to Italy (I accept the beaurocracy that goes with it too...)
Onto Spain. Spanish sometimes get priority. Sometimes I have in my Brit reg jet. Move on, wait your turn and go when told, coz whilst I am sitting on the ground I'm still burning my hours.... (see where I'm coming from?) I ain't bovvered!
Right, ATC wise whilst airborne. Within the last year I have been vectored 3nm behind a heavy on approach (I fly a medium) IMC - When asked about the aircarft ahead I was told 737 - sent to next frequency. Next frequency told me A310 and did the correct thing of breaking off my approach. THAT IS WHAT I CANNOT STAND, BEING LIED TO. Geddit... Whilst the Spanish/English mix prevails, I can not gain the traffic picture and thus can't stop this stuff at the beginning. The above was the subject of a Safety report. Another 4 of serious nature (2 worse then the example above) have been filed by me in the last year about ATC standards in Spain.
As far as I see it, if they are good enough then they should be able to operate mixed English/Spainish. In my opinion, they aren't so English should prevail.
/quiet mode/

Airbatic7eca

1st Jun 2007, 15:12

Wow, I’ve never heard more nonsense in my life. I have to admit some things are true, but if you are dumb enough to think it doesn’t happen all around the world, you should take an IQ test and quit flying.

The only reason this post even came up is because most of you have never flown in Asia or South America.

I feel like writing a few horror stories I have witnessed while flying through the UK in just the last month. Three weeks ago (EGMC), I saw an airplane cleared to land while another airplane was taxing on the runway cleared to take off. The landing aircraft almost landed on top of the aircraft that was on the runway. The bad part is that the controller asked the airplane going around why he was executing a go-around. I think the controller just wasn’t paying attention. I guarantee you the pilots on the ground wet their pants. That’s the quality of ATC in the UK.

Spanish, French and Italian are ICAO languages, get used to it. If you are frustrated because you can’t understand what other pilots are saying, do what a lot of us do, take lessons in a foreign language.

TE RANGI:
You have a whole list of mistakes caused by Spanish ATC. You might fool a newbie, but most of those mistakes are your fault. ATC is not there to hold your hand and teach you how to fly. If they give you a 70 degree intercept and above the GS (Which I don’t believe), you ask them to correct it, they are also human. ATC is not there to reduce your workload, or to conserve your fuel. Deal with it.

anotherthing

1st Jun 2007, 15:17

written by Airbatic7eca

..............That’s the quality of ATC in the UK.

That's the quality of someone who generalises the whole of a nations' ATC system, after having witnessed an event at a very minor aerodrome :ugh:

Airbatic7eca

1st Jun 2007, 15:32

anotherthing:
You hit the nail right on the head. Most of what you read here are generalizations. Since everyone is generalizing about Spanish ATC, why can’t I generalize about UK ATC? I have flown in both airspaces, and in my personal opinion both are very very safe, thus why I made the comment about South America and Asia.

In my case, I have had more issues flying in the UK then I have had in Spain. Its not every day you see an airplane almost touch down on top of another one. And let me tell you, Southend might be smaller than Heathrow, but there is a constant inflow and outflow of big jets. There is ABSOLUTELY no excuse for clearing an airplane to land while an airplane is on the runway, even at a small airport, but then again, we are all human.

anotherthing

1st Jun 2007, 16:16

Airbatic7eca

I think the phrase 'constant inflow and outflow of big jets' is pushing it a bit... I am an ATCO who controls for NATS in the London TMA, so I know a little about what goes on there; but you are correct about the generalisation that has gone on in this thread.

I cannot ever agree with anyone who thinks that using more than one language when providing an ATC service is safe, however I do agree with you in respect that there are instances of bad controlling everywhere.

Airbatic, your profile does not really tell us much about your experience, but a lot of what people are alluding to here is what is happening at major airports, not minor ones like Southend.

At many minor aerodromes you get a fairly high percentage of people who were unsuccesful in their training when it came to NATS - the UKs main ATC provider for larger airports and area control. Now these people have validated to the satisfaction of SRG, but at what is deemed to be a minor aerodrome.

These are poeple that in many cases, failed to validate with NATS. Yet very often, these minor aerodromes can be as, if not more, complex than the big airports because of the huge mixture of traffic they have.

Although nowhere near as busy, when they have their busy 60 minute rush in the morning, the complexity of the mixture of the traffic more than makes up for the relatively low number of movements when compared to a major airport.

I would also like to point out before I get shot down, that there are a lot of people at these aerodromes who have not been through the NATS and therefore cannot be deemed to have 'failed to validate' with NATS, but it is often the case trhat a large proportion of them do fall into the ex-NAts category.

Maybe this is why your personal experience of the UK is such - because you deal mainly with the 'minor' (for want of a better word) aerodromes??

Contacttower

1st Jun 2007, 16:22

Quote: ATC is not there to reduce your workload

Well imagine what life would be like without them....

Airbatic7eca

1st Jun 2007, 17:24

This is going to be my last post in this thread, hopefully.

I don’t see how criticizing ATC is going to resolve any problems. I can only speak from my experience, and that experience, as I have said, is that both UK and Spanish ATC is very safe. My few thousand hours of flying experience might not be what a 65 year old 747 Capitan has, but I can assure you that I have flown in many more countries than 98 percent of the people in this forum.

We, in Europe, are all very lucky to have such a good ATC system. Although in my opinion it doesn’t compare at all to the US system, I think it’s a far improvement from many other parts of the world. In my modest opinion, the best controllers in the world are those at the Atlanta Hartsfield Airport. But let’s leave that for another thread.

anotherthing:

First let me tell you that the London TMA controllers do a fine job, and all I can say is that I truly respect the job that you do.

I have to highlight something you said because it truly concerns me.

“These are poeple that in many cases, failed to validate with NATS. Yet very often, these minor aerodromes can be as, if not more, complex than the big airports because of the huge mixture of traffic they have.”

You must know the volume of VIP and BA146 traffic that land constantly at Southend. I would like to hear you explain to those pilots why a controller that failed to validate any kind of ATC license can still be guiding them around the sky. Like I said before, landing one airplane on top of another airplane has absolutely no excuse, regardless of the country in which it occurs. I have only seen this happen one time, and it was in the UK.

Every country has ATC issues because it is designed and handled by humans, mistakes will be made. If Spanish ATC was as bad as people make it seem, it would be obvious by the accident statistics, and this is evidently not the case.

F/Sgt Bell:

ATC is there to provide separation between aircraft, not to reduce the number of times you have to level off in the climb to FL350.

Flight with minimum ATC almost exist today, it’s called ADSB. I participated in a testing program for the system, and I can tell you it will be the future. Well programmed computers make far less mistakes than humans.

I hope I didn’t insult anyone. If anyone hates me after my comments, please send me a private message and we can hold a polite debate. I should have been a lawyer.

F4F

1st Jun 2007, 17:28

Well imagine what life would be like without them....

... would be called free flight and would work, at least en route between terminal areas :cool:

Is this gonna be the fight of the RC controlled airplane steered by ATC or TCAS AP flown auto-avoiding airplane, lest we forget the pilot :}

Contacttower

1st Jun 2007, 18:07

Exactly!

So why don't we just admit that ultimately machines will make better pilots/controllers than humans.

wiccan

1st Jun 2007, 19:27

A7eca
1. Read the post before critisizing [sp]
I would like to hear you explain to those pilots why a controller that failed to validate any kind of ATC license can still be guiding them around the sky.
What was said
At many minor aerodromes you get a fairly high percentage of people who were unsuccesful in their training when it came to NATS - the UKs main ATC provider for larger airports and area control. Now these people have validated to the satisfaction of SRG, but at what is deemed to be a minor aerodrome.
ergo, They ARE valid ATCOS. Perhaps there was a "land after" clearance, and the landing a/c made a mistake.....it HAS been known
However, a very important point IMHO has been missed...."OPEN REPORTING".
Any ATC/FDC errors/mistakes/cock-ups are MOR'd...and "Action is [seen] to be taken" to alleiviate the [raised] "problem". My question is this
"If a Spanish ATCO, witnesses, or makes a mistake, file [without predjudice] a report?" as happens in the UK
bb

Sonnendec

1st Jun 2007, 20:12

Well, after reading all the bashing and the ridiculous accusations of our professionality (only a few of you, fortunately, i thank the ones making the constructive and polite critics -most of you-), this is my last post here, because it seems to be of no use at all.

Nobody has backed up the supposed lack of safety in my country with any statistic. I will remain waiting for it, until then i´ll keep thinlking this forum is too much anglo-centered (it´s funny that when somebody reports an incident involving a UK controller i only read excuses and so on -how would it be if that happened in a spanish airport? -even a "minor" one?-)

So, be happy, feel welcomed in Spain and also to Canarias ACC in case you want to make a visit. Maybe you would see things differently... or maybe not, who knows.

Best regards, safe flights.

wiccan

1st Jun 2007, 21:08

Sonnendec,
I LIKE it. Someone [me] has posted a "safety related" post.....aka "Open Reporting" and it is NOT to your liking....so....
Nobody has backed up the supposed lack of safety in my country with any statistic. I will remain waiting for it, until then i´ll keep thinlking this forum is too much anglo-centered (it´s funny that when somebody reports an incident involving a UK controller i only read excuses and so on
As I said to A7eca READ THE POST
Question...DO YOU HAVE OPEN REPORTING IN SPAIN AS IN THE UK?
If not WHY NOT???????
bb

danishdynamite

1st Jun 2007, 21:24

Just to put more fuel on the fire :bored:
Why is that 9 out of 10 times when I check in on a spanish frq I am met with "station calling say again" or I have to call 2 or 3 times to get response?
It just makes me feel that the attention on the A/C's is not what I could hope for.

Btw I must also say that ATC at MAN sounds like he is sitting in a bunker and talking into a tin can. Plz fix.

PPRuNe Radar

2nd Jun 2007, 06:58

Airbatic7eca

Like I said before, landing one airplane on top of another airplane has absolutely no excuse, regardless of the country in which it occurs. I have only seen this happen one time, and it was in the UK.

Did you actually see an aircraft land on top of another in the UK ... or just a close call ? Some UK airfields can use a conditional clearance to land, where the landing pilot provides his own separation against the specified departing traffic. I don't know if Southend does have this procedure or not. Alternatively, it could have been an error or misjudgement on someones part. It happens all over the world.

We, in Europe, are all very lucky to have such a good ATC system. Although in my opinion it doesn’t compare at all to the US system,

If we come away from the generalisations, the US Air 737 being cleared to land on top of a Skywest Metro and killing 20+ people at LAX in 1991 is not exactly a shining beacon to the world. Runway incursions continue to be a threat in the US system, albeit not the fault of ATC most of the time.

There are good and bad examples of ATC in any system anywhere in the world. Most accidents however seem to have an element of pilot error as a cause, the percentage of those with an ATC aspect are considerably smaller. Discussion and debate such as this one can help raise awareness and let those being criticised do one of 2 things --- either be a victim (it's someone else's fault, there is no problem, you're all wrong) or take the bull by the horns and review the perceptions and reported issues and provide a resolution. Which improves the safety of aviation for us all ???

andrijander

2nd Jun 2007, 12:06

wiccan,

as I said before, I am an atc and I am spanish but I don't work in spain. Does anybody have any proof of all the things being said here? Now really...anyone? I'm not saying anyone in here is not telling the truth but I have the feeling it's all down to personal impressions -out of the thousands of pilots flying to spain we got 4 together w this bad impression and that's were all this starts...or is it actually true...but then there would be some hard evidence...somewhere. As I did on page 2 there's a link to EUROCONTROL's 2006 performance review and safety is not mentioned to be such an issue. Fair enough the report is not that detailed on that matter but is there any hard evidence?

To all,
no offence but I don't work in Spain and I don't fly there. I've read pilots saying it's good and pilots saying it's bad. Who can I trust? I see plenty f%&·ck ups almost on a daily basis from ANSP's considered to be top notch...or seen as top notch? Maybe they care more about PR than others?

Who knows...I know I don't know for sure. And, hey, yeah sure you got in a tight situation that day or the other...I've seen 'em on my screen plenty and nobody is raising forums for it -for the record haven't been responsible for any incident(nor accident thank you) myself but involved as neighbour sector about 4 times, more or less-. So c0c5 ups happen...we learn from them...we move on to see another day and do our job better. Do they do it in Spain? I would hope so. Again few posters have actually been helpful and positive in trying to identify were all this really comes from -what actually may be the weakest links in the ATC chain-. Thanks to all that people.

C ya around. Safe flying.
A.

andrijander

2nd Jun 2007, 12:12

Radar,
what can i say when you wrote:
(
Did you actually see an aircraft land on top of another in the UK[...]It happens all over the world.
[...]
let those being criticised do one of 2 things --- either be a victim (it's someone else's fault, there is no problem, you're all wrong) or take the bull by the horns and review the perceptions and reported issues and provide a resolution. Which improves the safety of aviation for us all ???
)
A bit contradictory giving a lesson like that and in the same post saying something like "are you sure?well sh1t happens..what can you do...". I'm amazed.
A.

anotherthing

2nd Jun 2007, 13:48

Andrijander,

I think you are confused in what PPrune Radar said because of the way the English language works. He was trying to get across the fact that the incident of the A/C 'almost landing on top of another' could actually have been an result of a perfectly legal clearance (a conditional clearance)... this allows the pilot to continue that little bit longer on the approach, which may make a bystander think that an airmiss (airprox) has just occurred.

In the second instance he is saying you can sit on your backside (not you personally) and whinge about things all day long, blaming everyone else, the system etc; or, more productively, you can highlight perceived problems and, if needed, get them fixed (hopefully)

andrijander

2nd Jun 2007, 14:15

Right,
so "me no comprende". And intercepting ILS at 70º it's illegal. Forget unsafe and or not the best practice. I see how it works when you turn the tortilla around.
I got the points, thank you, but it is funny how it seems to me the same kind of answer you got from the spanish ATC. In the line of "oh, but surely that didn't happen and if it did it does happen everywhere really...". I don't see how that doesn't fall within comtempting. Then again, I can only take a7eca's word for it and yes it may have been only a misinterpretation of the situation but radar's answer goes nowhere near, and I quote: "take[/ing] the bull by the horns and review the perceptions and reported issues and provide a resolution".
Now did I "work it" properly for you to "comprender"?
A.

Airbatic7eca

2nd Jun 2007, 14:21

The only reason I brought up the incident at EGMC, was to prove that mistakes happen all around the world. To those of you who think the UK ATC system is infallible, believe me its not. Its amazing how most of you criticize the Spanish system, and when something bad is said about the UK system, everyone jumps to make excuses. It’s truly ridiculous.

Yes, one airplane was cleared to land, and moments before another airplane had been cleared to takeoff. No conditional clearance was given to any aircraft. Accident reports show that is has happened all around the world, but I have only seen it with my own two eyes in the UK. Saying that the controller is a reject from another tower is no excuse. STOP MAKING EXCUSES. Why do you think Heathrow has that special lighting system for taxiing aircraft? I can answer that too, because no one is perfect.

Spain has an open reporting system, the same as every country operating under JAR. If you have really encountered a problem in any country, instead of coming on here and bitching like babies, file a report.

RADAR:
Compare the number of operations out of LAX and EGMC. Mathematically, which one do you think is more prone to having an accident? It doesn’t take a genius to answer that. I would hate to see the EGMC controller at Madrid or at Heathrow.

Nobody forces anyone to fly. If I really thought that one airspace was so unsafe that I had to come on PPRUNE to complain about it, I would just not fly into it. Most companies will let you choose your destinations.

anotherthing

2nd Jun 2007, 15:17

Airbatic

Heathrow has the lighting because it helps pilots...... which in turn helps the ATCOs and ATSAs. The Lighting Panel Operator can still screw up though!!

No one is jumping to cover up UK shortfalls - Pprune Radra was giving one explanation of why it might have happened. However it seems that this is not the case as from your posts one can assume that you were following evrything that was going on at the airport at the time, and had 100% spatial awareness... not that common in pilots when they have other things on their minds.

This thread has degenerated somewhat - first it was a post with a genuine concern for one persons perceived worries about Spanish ATC, based on their experiences around the world. Then it descended into a bun fight about use of several languages on RT.

If you read the posts carefully, you will find that the only people who are tryin to say that use of several languages on an R/T circuit is not a bad idea, is the very ones who do it!! That to my mind speaks volumes about the quality of the ATCOS/pilots involved.

Andrinjder,

I was merely pointing out that you may have misinterpreted what was being said - no reason to get in a strop about it. The English language is one of the most peculiar when it comes to nuance and double meanings of phrases etc. To a non native English speaker, this can sometime be confusing - hell the Yanks don't even understand 'British' English all the time!

As for Pprune Radar trying to claim it was not an incident and that it could not happen in Britain, he was merely pointing out another expalanation as to what could have been occuring - however we now know that Airbatic was 100% fully up to speed with the traffic situation and all the calls that were happening at the time... no mean feat for a pilot who has other things to do, but very commendable.

The answers we got from some of the members of Spanish ATC regarding the use of multiple languages on the R/T were downright scary and dangerous. If they and others cannot see how this practice can only increase the chances of an incident, they are in the wrong job. Hell if the EGMC controller had started speaking in a different language, the chances are that Airbatic would not have managed to keep a full and therefore safe menatl picture

andrijander

2nd Jun 2007, 16:00

Anotherthing,
anybody may misinterpret anytime what's being said. Now I didn't this time. Maybe you have misinterpreted what's being said. I still think, after reading it four times, that I understand it pretty clearly. Perhaps, instead of implying that when it is not the case, you could actually read the posts and give it some thought before saying something like that.
If it happens in spain is bad...if it happens in UK let's give it some reasonable doubt. Double standards anybody? And hey, I'm not bashing but just saying all instances should be treated equally. I have so far.
Spanish is remarcable for the amount of double meaning you may get. Hell, half our humor is based on it. Speaking in silver, you didn't sell me the bike for the ones that may know of what I'm talking about. (Hablando en plata, no me has vendido la moto para los que sepan de que hablo). And we actually don't drop silver when we open our mouth and there's no real bike for sell or this would be called ebay.
I understand what radar said, no need to explain. Yes he was trying to give it some explanation, same as the spaniards have been trying to do with the incidents you (plural you) exposed. But this time it is not called "excuses" but "explanation". Gimme a break. You pick someone else for bullfighting next time, mate, I ain't biting it. (para entendidos).
Also remarcable how you mention so much that a7eca was actually listening the freq, and I quote :" had 100% spatial awareness... not that common in pilots when they have other things on their minds."; "however we now know that Airbatic was 100% fully up to speed with the traffic situation and all the calls that were happening at the time... no mean feat for a pilot who has other things to do, but very commendable."
I thought the whole point of 1 language was actually that pilot's may follow it. I understand from your words you only find it commendable to do that. What are you implying here? So far nobody has tried to even imply pilot's not listening/hearing -which also happens for many varied reasons-.
A.
PD: none of the spanish in this post is offensive, just a show of how double "mean" can spanish be.

Mach trim

2nd Jun 2007, 18:55

Airbatic 7eca,

" If you have really encountered a problem in any country, instead of coming on here and bitching like babies, file a report "

When you have the risk of an air ground collision (see previous link Barcelona/atc )

you are addressing a real safety concern.

This report was filed among many others.

Could someone confirm if it is true whether Barcelona and Madrid have the highest number of ASRS reports filed (by Easyjet )?

Does your company have a number of ASR reports filed for flights in Spain ?

Read the post from a Spanish controller who admits they are understaffed and there is money problems.

Changes need to be made in the Spanish ATC system or there will be an incident.

As I said before the chain is as strong as it's weakest link.

Clearly the warning flags are there.

Hell, what do I know but I have been based out of for over 2 and a half years out of Barcelona. I was shocked with the ATC when I first came here.

Would appreciate more insight from a Madrid/Bcn controller ?
I for one would like to get to the heart of the matter.

It is just you expect west European standards and many times you do not get it.

:ugh:

Flintstone

2nd Jun 2007, 20:16

If I really thought that one airspace was so unsafe that I had to come on PPRUNE to complain about it, I would just not fly into it. Most companies will let you choose your destinations

Funniest thing I've ever read.:O "Hello? Chief Pilot? I'm not coming to work today as I don't like flying to XXXX".

Mind you. When you've flown to "....more countries than 98% of people on PPRuNe..." I suppose you can afford to pick and choose:hmm:

ALTSEL

2nd Jun 2007, 21:13

Spain - main income = Tourists

Tourists = mode of access = Aviation

area of least investment = ATC infrastructure i.e ILS, RADAR, DME, PAPI & ATIS.

One day it will all meet up. Fact.

Please join the rest of Europe. For our sake.

tubby linton

2nd Jun 2007, 21:21

They certainly were losing the plot this morning in PMI.There was a small line of weather at ADX,(RW06L in use).We were asked to hold at ADX,which we declined due to the weather.Aircraft were going everywhere even though the weather was nowhere near the centerline for 06L and was cavok to the south!The obvious plan was to put everybody on a downwind to clear the weather and then turn around the back of it onto the localiser,or vector all traffic to the south of the field.These courses of action seemed to be beyond the capabilities of the approach controller however!

Caudillo

2nd Jun 2007, 21:43

Tubby - why didn't you jump in your awacs and take charge?

anotherthing

2nd Jun 2007, 22:25

Andrijander,

Fair enough, if you understand the English all I was saying was that Pprune Radar was giving an explanation as to what might have been going on, but we shall put that aside as you and I could talk semantics all night.

However, it does seem that English irony slipped by you in my last post regarding situational awareness... i was insinuating that Airbatic may not have really known exactly what was going on, despite the inference in his post that he did.

If you use only one language it increases Pilots and controllers and ground staffs situational awareness - FACT.

If you use more than one language, you are increasing the likelihood of an incident occurring because people are not being given the chance to hear everything in a common language - FACT.

Pilots never have 100% situational awareness in the context of what is happening around them - FACT.

Even the very best pilots tune out calls that do not involve them because it is impossible to assimilate all the information, keep a 100% picture going in your head, and fly the aircraft - FACT.

Therefore my post about the situational awareness of Airbatic being commendable was actually tongue in cheek, because I can guarantee you 100%, Airbatic did not have total situational awareness of what was happening at the airfield, unless he was controlling the aircraft at the aerodrome.

When it comes to the 'bigger picture', the person who is going to have the closest thing to 100% situational awareness is the TCO - but even then it is never 100% because there may be things happening in cockpits that he may not be aware of.

my bold staements regarding pilots and crews lack of 100% understanding comes from my many years as an ATCO, which were preceded by many years flying for the military in far less sophisticated aircraft than todays airliners, but in far more strenuous conditions.... we had to maintain a far higher degree of situational awareness than is needed by pilots in constant communication with ATC in their fly by wire glass cockpits, if our situational awareness was not good enough, we got weeded out in training, but even military pilots whoare at the top of their game cannot, hand on heart, claim to maintain 100% situational awareness in a busy environment... guess what? That's a FACT too!

andrijander

3rd Jun 2007, 00:25

Anotherthing,
keep explaining to me all you want. I don't need it but thank you. Just re-read your posts and think. You wanna call it a draw but I can't believe, still, how you keep calling that a "possible explanation" from somebody who wasn't even there. It is the same reaction you guys acuse the spanish to have. That just throws your whole case down the drain. Plain and simple.
I don't need to score against anybody any points on how much english I understand or not. This is not school and you are not my teacher so stop suggesting anything about my english level. I did understand you and that's why I remarqued on you suggestion that perhaps a7eca wasn't fully100% in the loop of what was going on. I just didn't want to acuse you of being so blatantly arrogant. I guess I have no other choice now but to say it : how is it that you haven't given any margin for doubt in the other posts when it goes down to situations in spain and you do on the very first one that is mentioned happening in the uk? Maybe an ex RAF has too much pride?
-->for the mods please keep in mind it has been posted before spanish atc'ers may have had too much pride and that was a reason for things being that bad and not improving. The ball is back in your roof.<--
As I said a couple of posts earlier that's as far as I'll go. But I think I have pretty clear what's up now. Good'ole'bashing. No proof and when the tide turns so do the arguments. Well, I hate double standards. You enjoy them all you want ;)
A.

Pd: thanks also for your cv but you could be, for all I care, the cleaning guy...as long as you're right that's all I need to know. But that's achieved by arguing not by getting the upper ground with tricks.

411A

3rd Jun 2007, 02:18

Sadly, Spain does indeed have its problems, and it has been thus for the very many years I have passed that way.
It would appear that each new generation of younger pilots have had dissatisfaction with Spanish ATC, but the fact remains that it ain't gonna improve anytime soon, so get used to it.
LHR?
Well lets see, ATIS says 8km, yet listening on ground control while in the LOGAN hold years ago, the airport is in the process of going to LVP.
Nothing from the approach controller, nor anyone else for that matter.
They still insist that minimal delay expected.
Imagine that.

I personally believe that throwing stones at Spanish ATC when LHR can't get it right on some occasions, is nonsense...go with the flow, folks.
That, quite frankly is what you are paid the big bucks for...:ugh:

Or, would you disagree?
Answers on a postcard....:rolleyes:

tubby linton

3rd Jun 2007, 08:54

"Tubby - why didn't you jump in your awacs and take charge?"

I could have probably done a better job!It didn't help that almost half PMI's transmissions were in Spanish !

andrijander

3rd Jun 2007, 11:41

Tubby,

I assume you don't speak spanish yet you had a mental picture of what was going on by listening to the radio...and you would have done a better job. Perhaps the controller was just acomodating pilot's request to fly around the wx? I do not know. Yes maybe he was screwing up. After all, he was a lousy spanish not a god gifted "north european"...

A.

aaesteve

4th Jun 2007, 18:03

Hi everyone,

An spanish ATC student here with a question for the pilots.

I have seen many of you complaining about being vectored or descended below MSA but... do you carry MVA Charts with you? because those altitudes are the ones we must respect at all times when vectoring traffic and they differ from the MSAs available in the approach, SID and STAR charts, at least the ones our AIP publishes.

Thanks in advance!

haughtney1

4th Jun 2007, 18:31

do you carry MVA Charts with you? because those altitudes are the ones we must respect at all times when vectoring traffic and they differ from the MSAs available in the approach, SID and STAR charts, at least the ones our AIP publishes

Yes we do, and even then we still get a vector towards high ground, or poor speed control, or a combination of both:ooh:

aaesteve, good luck with your training, please bear in mind that we aren't moaning just for the sake of it......many of my colleagues genuinely feel that certain Spanish ATC standards can be dangerous

aaesteve

4th Jun 2007, 19:01

aaesteve, good luck with your training, please bear in mind that we aren't moaning just for the sake of it......many of my colleagues genuinely feel that certain Spanish ATC standards can be dangerous

Thanks for the reply.

There¡s little I can say in this discussion since most of my experience comes from the simulator. All I can say is the level of proficiency in English of my classmates is quite good (more than the level 4 required) and that most of us feel that everything would be easier if we only had to use English but unfortunately that is impossible in Spain right now. Many VFR pilots and most of the ground personnel would have no situational awareness whatsoever.

C U

Flintstone

4th Jun 2007, 19:20

Hi aaesteve.

An interesting point about the VFR pilots losing situational awareness but perhaps it might be better for them to be out of the loop (they can see and avoid) than larger, less manouverable aircraft in IMC? That said I suppose most of the VFR aircraft will be PPL's and it's difficult to insist they communicate in English. No reason why the commercial traffic can't though and it's those aircraft I am most likely to encounter which is why they worry me.

I take no pleasure in denigrating a group but it has to be said Spanish ATC gives me cause for concern. Please don't take that as an insult, it's an observation based upon my experience. Nowhere is perfect but they do seem to lose the plot more often than some others.

Their most infuriating practice is to ignore aircraft checking in and dealing with a 'later' one who calls in Spanish. What is the solution? More money and better facilities for people like yourself perhaps? Clearly you and your fellow trainees have a better grasp of the language than some of the controllers I have had to deal with and we can only hope you graduate soon.

Good luck!!

chiglet

4th Jun 2007, 21:53

andrijander,
You are a typical 7yo. Anyone critisizes Spanish ATC is a BAD person....even though they may [perhaps] have a valid point. More importantly, they actually FLY into that Airspace.....
But YOU, knowing [as you admit] NOTHING about Speed Control/ROD Cleared Levels in the London TMA quite happily tell Aircrew that it's ok to take 3-4 mniutes, because ATC won't mind, "And anyway, if he wanted you there yesterday...." Very professional.........:E
Oh, another item. Someone asked about the "Open Reporting Culture" that is prevelent in the UK, whether it is active in Spain....is it?
watp,iktch

Sonnendec

4th Jun 2007, 22:24

chiglet,

Your post is very intelligent.... because andrijander is not working in spanish airspace :}

About the open reporting, you were already answered... read the posts, please. :ugh:

Flying Torquewrench

5th Jun 2007, 09:33

Sonnendec,

I have been away for a little while but i would like to comment on your reply in post #165.

Unfortunately, spanish carriers get priority. Thats not something i make up so that Spanish ATC looks bad.

You might not have seen it in your working life, but that does not mean it doesn't happen. Maybe (i hope) you control on the first come, first serve basis. Thats the way it should be.

And to correct my earlier post. I fly regularly to the Canaries and indeed normally its controlled on a first come, first serve basis. Very occasionally a Binter is slipped in before us. However that can be solved by reducing speed a lttle bit earlier and does not require any delaying vectors.

The priority thing is much more frequent on main land Spain.

andrijander

5th Jun 2007, 14:32

Jaja,
chicle,
you just know me so well don't cha? But of course it is easy to prove what you're saying because you only need to read my posts again and you will see that:
-I have critisiced everyone and all who has said something negative about anything related to Spain....not.
-I admitely know nothing about the London TMA other than it is in London (or Swanwick if we mean where the control room is I assume) and it is a TMA.
-I do know if you expect an AC to reduce 40 knots and descend w high rate it'll take time...and if you want it now you should have planned ahead before (I was told this story once by a pilot saying that airbrakes are for them to cover their mistakes, not mine).
-I may have no clue to speed control and ROC/ROD but that hasn't been a problem for me to handle the initial app to EHAM TMA from the east for 4 years -not to brag and maybe you don't care just wondering loudly: how can this have happened?-.
-As pointed to you please read the posts there is actually an answer posted to that one you still wonder.
:rolleyes:
Going back to serious mode: let's be serious. I may be whatever but venting just how bad my day was "just because"...well it takes me nowhere -yeah pilots also sometimes don't listen, some colleagues may be bad sometimes, neighbouring acc's may seem to not make sense this or that day or I could have seen a bad one on the making- However, there have been some posts I admire in here and they were not nice to "my precious" (or so it seems to be, I just didn't know :?: ). But they were fair and tried to adhere to facts not to feelings on something they experienced. Now when some people goes to the point of talking badly w/out proof and in an improper manner...well that is something else.
Safe flying,
A.
PD: I wrote 2 to 3 minutes and I didn't say they wouldn't care. I wrote: [...] we normally keep an eye to make sure you guys do what we asked -and not something else- so if needed you'll be issued extra instructions (just don't expect them to be nice...more like delaying vectors or some bashing).[.]So again please read first, shoot ACCORDINGLY. :)

cresslime

5th Jun 2007, 16:37

Thanks a lot to give us a chance to get atc lesson for free!!!!!! Next time when you arrive at "my approach terminal area"" be sure that I would give you CRM lessons...also for free. Neither us, as ATCos nor you, as pilots, are perfect.
If you have any complain please follow standard procedures and do not feed "pollution on frecuencies & threads".
Regards from NW Spain.

Right Way Up

5th Jun 2007, 17:40

This thread reminds me of when CRM courses started. The people who needed them sat in the corner ignoring everyone else as they were sure they were a waste of time.:ugh::ugh:

chiglet

5th Jun 2007, 18:00

sonnendec
Please tell me just where I said andrijander worked in Spain :ugh:
I said that he critized anybody who said Bad things about Spanish ATC...
OK, I am interpreting a "defensive" posture against quote "Western Europeans" who are better [they think] than their Spanish counterparts as well.... "not nice people".
Andrij,
Perhaps it is time for ATC/ATC Liason Visits...again :ok:
watp,iktch

Sonnendec

5th Jun 2007, 18:30

Chiglet,

If weren´t interpreting that andrijander was working in Spain... then your post is even more intelligent :}

And yes, it´s a defensive posture against a very unfair treatment in this forum.

Best regards.

cresslime

5th Jun 2007, 19:21

Also will be available some training courses to know how complete stabilized precision aproaches to runways whithout radar service...whith no extra cost just for friendly crews!!!
Its a pleasure for me to learn about atc items & teach about pilot skills.
Let the cobbler stick to his last.
Best regards from NW Spain.

andrijander

5th Jun 2007, 19:57

Airbatica7eca wrote: "Spain has an open reporting system, the same as every country operating under JAR.".
Page 10 post number 199. It sounds pretty clear to me...I mean, because I've read it... which makes me think that the only reason it's not understood is because it wasn't read by some of you here.
Chiglet: anytime, mine's a lager ;) .
Safe flying,
A.
PD: y buen control a tod@s.

edited for punctuation.

fireflybob

8th Jun 2007, 17:29

Have been flying to Spain today and here is a small example of what can happen.

I dont want to identify the airport but it's big and on the Spanish coast. Today 8th June a new ILS and associated procedure is promulgated on the South easterly runway and indeed the NOTAMS also mention this fact. So we brief for the new ILS - the ATIS is saying RW 12 etc. As we join the arc we find the ILS is not coding or showing. I ask approach if the ILS is working to be told negative, cleared for the VOR/DME approach.

Now the weather was good (Cavok, day) but it would have been nice if the ATIS had said "ILS off air, expect VOR/DME approach to RW...etc.

threemiles

8th Jun 2007, 20:06

a) they got it b) come back next month
Notam Class A: LEVC A4166/07 NOTAMN
Q) LECB/QPIXX/I /NBO/A /000/999/3929N00029W005
A) LEVC
B) 06.06.07 18:43
C) 06.07.07 23:59 EST
E) REF AIP SPAIN (AIRAC AMDT 06/07) WEF 07-JUN-07 AD 2-LEVC IAC/1 ILS RWY 12 IAC MANOEUVRE POSTPONED

groc

8th Jun 2007, 21:28

Hello fireflybob,
the airport was LEVC -Valencia- and the Barcelona's control (ANETO or MAMES) clearence:
"XXXxxx identified FLXXX, proceed SAURA/SOPET expect VOR/DME RWY12"
Cheers,
Z

andrijander

8th Jun 2007, 22:36

I give initial clearance for EDDV inb and they got one runway, if landing is east 09 we call it east and we send tfc via ROBEG, if west 27 dct DLE(leine). Sometimes rwy is chg and we are notified later so it takes a bit for us to know and we therefore clear tfc initially dct the wrong place but because Bremen ACC hasn't told us yet....mind you they tend to chg their ATIS beforehand or something as pilots half the time seem to know before we do-atc is not a single cell but many ppl and we need some time to get our act together indeed-.

Hopefully ATIS will be changed by tomorrow...chances are it was changed during the day today and you got a bite of the gap (hopefully at least). Anybody knows when precisely has changed (if it has?) Groc tal vez lo puedas mirar y sacarles de sus dudas existenciales ;) .

Safe flying,
A.

fireflybob

9th Jun 2007, 02:44

grob and threemiles thanks for the replies;
Hello fireflybob,
the airport was LEVC -Valencia- and the Barcelona's control (ANETO or MAMES) clearence:
"XXXxxx identified FLXXX, proceed SAURA/SOPET expect VOR/DME RWY12"
Cheers,
Z

I can assure you that BCN did not advise us to expect VOR/DME RWY 12! Our entry point was PUMAL.

This was only a minor observation - on the whole I think Spanish ATC do a good job. Looks like the NOTAM delaying implementation of the ILS had not got through to our company system but my basic point is that if the ILS was not in service and the VOR/DME approach was in use this should be in the ATIS and/or notified by Approach control on initial contact.

I suppose what this debate proves is that flight safety is actually a matter of good teamwork (ie from pilots, controllers, assistants etc) but if you are playing a football game and lose 30 goals to nil you shouldnt blame it all on the goalkeeper!

groc

9th Jun 2007, 08:00

Roger that.
So, I'm afraid you were "the exemption".
(I was on 132.575 during the afternoon)
Cheers.

haughtney1

9th Jun 2007, 11:41

Groc..thanks for the service....I passed through your sector yesterday afternoon:8

Bomber Harris

10th Jun 2007, 00:49

Lets get a few things straight here:

1/ there is no such thing as global warming. it's just a small cyclical temperature anomoly
2/ saddams weapons of mass destruction are really well hidden
3/ there is nothing wrong with spanish atc
4/ oh yeah...jordans t1ts are real

The comment made about the first CRM courses says it all....those who really need it don't participate because its a waste of time!!

How can someone read the barrage of SPECIFIC as well as general complaints and then say silly things like "does any have any proof" or "tell me something specific". Take your heads out of the sand. There is a problem. We are not telling lies. Count the amount of people on the thread who think there is no problem....a handful. All the rest think there is a problem. Now lets apply logic here! Are you sure you guys are not getting into "the whole world is wrong and I am right" syndrom......

Sonnendec

10th Jun 2007, 06:33

Maybe you are the one who have a really dangerous syndrome, very common one... well, just stick to it, the rest of the world will stay moving.

Best regards.

flash2002

10th Jun 2007, 12:28

I'm truely amazed how most native english pilots react on the fact that alot of spanish/foreign controllers don't speak english as fluently as they would like to see.

Especially since most english native speakers have never learned another language themselves. How can you judge someone on not being able to speak english fluently if you have never learned another language yourself?:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Just imagine ICOA had determined that spanish should be the language used for r/t. You guys would all have lots of problems speaking fluent spanish/french/any other foreign language!!!
And as soon as you would fly into UK airspace, you would start talking english.
It is just human nature! It doesn't mean your not trying your best, its just easier since you don't have to translate everything you say.

Offcourse it would be much safer if everybody would speak in the same language over the radio! But you should show some more respect to the foreigners who go to the trouble of learning english!

ChristiaanJ

10th Jun 2007, 14:33

flash2002,
You forget to mention that a fair share of "native English speakers" think they speak English...... But some regional accents can be worse than a "foreigner" who often at least tries to speak comprehensible English.

flash2002

10th Jun 2007, 14:57

Very true indeed ChristiaanJ! I was shocked the first time I went to NCL and tried to start a conversation with the local taxi driver. :}

contacttower118.2

10th Jun 2007, 15:29

I would like to think that if ICAO did suddenly decide to change to Spanish that UK pilots would make a real effort to learn it. Many probably wouldn't but in that case they would be just as up for criticism as Spanish ATC is now. No matter what you believe about the fairness or difficulty of learning other languages the basic truth that a common R/T language is safer than many different ones remains the same.

flash2002

10th Jun 2007, 15:57

Offcourse UK pilots would try to learn, and most would never realise a proficient level of spanish. At least not proficient enough to talk about non-standard stuff.

I absolutely agree with you that one common language is the safest. But face it...... it will never happen!!!!
At the time the 5 (?) ICAO languages were determined everybody knew that 1language would be safer. But aviation outside the flightdeck/control tower is more about politics then safety anyhow!

And if spanish would become the international language for r/t most UK pilots would start talking in english as soon as they would fly into UK airspace. Especially when there is a need to talk about non-standard stuff.
Thus creating the same problems we have in france and spain at the moment with the english language.

flash2002

10th Jun 2007, 19:36

After reading the entire thread I also agree on it being a culture issue. I have trained in Portugal for a couple of months. And it takes ages to get something done.

I do think some spanish controllers give priority to spanish carriers, most of them just go with the sequence. But for some reason when controllers and pilots speak spanish on the ground it always seems to be a very long conversation??? Does it take longer to give a clearance in spanish? Or is it just because i'm waiting to step in???

With regard to speed control at BCN, maybe we take the speed control in spain a bit to serious? I know there is another thread running with a UK controller complaining about pilots not adherring to speed control. And I think this is one of the causes for not adherring to speeds.

And about not getting enough directs, just ask most of the times you get it. Don't expect to be told everything. You are flying and you can ask. Its not Eurocontrol.

Flying in the UK isn't always pretty either.

How often doesn't it happen to be cleared for the localizer, but subseqently not being cleared for the glide and eventually finding yourself diving down to capture it????? Especially when it is a nice day with loads of GA traffic, who don't have any R/T discipline! And just start chatting away for almost a minute.

And why was this practice, of clearing for the localizer and glide separately, put into place? Because some pilot f*cked up and descended to the MSA after being cleared approach. This took him out of controlled airspace.
So some wise men in the UK decide, in the interest of safety, to come up with the ridicoulous idea that we see now. Instead of penalizing the airline that f*cked up?!?!

But I guess that's culture as well! And because the spanish culture doesn't match you feel there is a safety issue.
Maybe the UK has gone to faar in trying to eliminate every risk there is. Even to the extent that pilots don't feel they can do a rawdata ILS on a nice day.

Mach trim

11th Jun 2007, 00:17

Once again, It would be interested to hear from more ATC insiders on this..

:confused::ugh::confused:

The Spanish and a number of ATC worldwide systems ( and all of us ) could learn from the Australians.

The language issue is merely one link in the chain.

The latent deficiencies in the system need to be identified. Do you agree ?

The rate of accidents is low but air traffic is growing.

The Australian bureau of Air Safety Investigation carried out the study of the safety of the their ATS system(1991-2 )

They used the Reason model as a conceptual basis for the investigation.

The Reason model is needed in Spain to be applied to ATS, too in my humble opinion but I only have a few pieces of the puzzle.

Reason's model applied to the ATC system involves Error management, organizational deficiencies ( line management decisions ), psychological precursors to unsafe acts (excessive workload, poor human-system interface, working overtime, disturbed sleep patternsetc. ), inadequate defences, acceptance of distractions in the workplace( many incidents have controllers distracted prior to the occurence.

Sonnedoc has confirmed some of these...

What about failure to maintain the traffic picture (SA ) ?
Changes included the establishment of a Strategic Planning unit, upgrading and strengthening of the Quality assurance function, the introduction of a Human Factors training and the use of the Reason model in ATS occurence investigation and safety.

Inadequate defences were identified:

1. Controller must act as own safety net
2. Aircrew role not identified/understood
3. Inadequate monitoring
4. System has few failsafes
5. Collision avoidance not planned
6. Development of an integrated approach to training
7 Clarification of safety versus trade off,etc

What about the inappropiate use of flexibility to very procedures ?

Providing service without checking outcomes ?

Coordination failures ?

From the book,
" Beyond Aviation Human Factors " Maurino,Reason,Johnston and Lee

groc

11th Jun 2007, 00:24

To Bomber Harris & the rest (Bomber Harris dixit):
Take your heads out of the sand. There is a problem. We are not telling lies. Count the amount of people on the thread who think there is no problem....a handful. All the rest think there is a problem. Now lets apply logic here! Are you sure you guys are not getting into "the whole world is wrong and I am right" syndrom
Well, spanish ATCOs are not perfect, indeed: poor english, "continuous" mistakes, lack of information and knowledge... Anything else?
Probably, these are not unjustified complaints.
In my opinion, this is another exemple of how people use the internet as "complaint site": if their new brand mercedes is a disaster they will spend hours on the internet looking for some kind of consolation (info, other people complaints, reviews...), if their new brand mercedes is fine they are not going to mess about it.
Therefore, pilots in disagreement with spanish control will find here a good place to feel comfortable but there are pilots, bearing in mind your comments they will be only a little bunch -according to my reckonings- ;), that don't need to unbosom themselves of daily and SAFE flights.
Cheers.