Cathay 2nd Interview Debrief: May07

[03Navy]

First of all let me get my bias out of the way first and I'll try to keep the info "fair and balanced" from there out. Remember that when you go in for an interview, the company isn't just interviewing you, YOU are interviewing the company. What I mean is, no matter how much you are in love with the prospect of a job at Cathay, don't let your desire cloud your judgement as to whether or not you will be happy there. I say this because I went to Hong Kong full of dreams of landing a DEFO (US) job and certainly the flight over and the sights and sounds of HKG only exacerbated this dream. But then I checked in for the interview. I'll post details below but, to summarize: the CX interview is a HOSTILE interview--they really don't care who you are or what you flew, simply that you spent every waking moment since you were notified of your interview preparing for it. That means you really need to know every nit-noid detail of the company and you'd better know more than just the standard gouge you can get off the internet. This certainly did not put me at ease.

To be fair, my opinion was a bit tainted before I showed in HKG by all the negatives (haven't seen many positives but, we ARE pilots, and this IS a blog) on here by folks already working for them. However, it seemed the CX interview team almost went out of their way to CONFIRM every gripe I've read on here and then some (see "Freighter Briefing", "simulator", and "cocktail party"). Bottom line: when I interviewed at SWA, I left feeling more in love with the company than when I arrived (and I didn't think that possble); I was truly depressed when they turned me down. When I left HKG after the CX interview; I had a feeling that, should I be offered the job (I pretty much knew I blew it), I'd have to do a good gut check and ask whether I could suck it up enough to actually work there.

I would recommend Americans really research the hell out of this position before committing 4-6 mos of your year to studying up for this interview (yes...thats what it will take to be successful) and figuring out if this is REALLY what you want to do. There is definitely a bias against Americans in the interviewing process--most the Aussies mentioned their final interview was simply a "whatcha been flying" sort of affair while us Americans were put through the wringer. There were other distinctions as well ("freighter briefing"). I would advise ALL pilots to research other options for foreign carriers that aren't so friggin "pedantic". OK, enuff rant, heres my Gouge:

TRIP OVER: Stellar! A real class act airline. It's virtually impossible to get an upgrade (an odd hobby of mine to try and I tried EVERYTHING) but coach on CX is like first on any US carrier. FYI: there's no services (exc. lavs of course) past security after 11pm at LAX (Bradley terminal).

HOTEL: Booked at the Novotel as the Headlands are being renovated. Place puts the "W" to shame. Typically you'll get there a full day before your interview. I chose to take in the sights as I studied the whole planeride over.

DAY1: Arrive at F/C RECRTMNT on time--no need to be ridiculously early. They take all your xeroxed stuff (yes it's really about a reem of paper and yes you may need to xerox the same 10 pages from your log 3 times for 3 different things--can't just highlight everything on 1 set of copies).

GROUP EXERCISE: Exactly as other posts describe...no changes noted. List candidates and strengths/weaknesses on whiteboard. There are 2-3 candidates you can just reject for certain criteria--reccommend doing so and not laboring long on them. Concentrate on the POSSIBLES.
SIMULATOR BRIEFING: A quick rundown on the simulator eval and they give you gouge power-settings and nose attitudes---MEMORIZE THEM!!!
They mentioned that they aren't out to fail you, they just want to measure you against the CX standard (and that they were desperate for pilots).
TECH QUIZ: I somehow skipped this in YVR so got stuck with it. XYZ's practice test will help, but its COMPLETELY new. Need to know the "why" behind A, B, and C choices.
MATH/PSYCH QUIZ: The math was a pain in the ass--I do most my on the job math (W&B, speeds, etc.)in my head and it was still a bear. Just do the ones you can answer right away and come back to dork around with the ones you need to do long division for. Psych was a standard personality test with some reasoning Q's thrown in: Meow:CAT as X : DOG.
FREIGHTER BRIEFING: A rundown on the job description (here's where it started heading south). The 3 years to Pax side/HKG is a MINIMUM: realistically 4-6 years. Opportunity for (American) command much greater on the Freight side (see the blogs on FH regarding American advancement on the pax side). There is ALOT of pseudo-reserve time. Not what we'd call reserve in the US just like: you have a 4 day trip and get back on time--the company can send you back out during your next 4 days off, if they don't use you after a couple days though you DO get off. Lots of loopholes like this. Pay is less on the FR8 side but again, you make captain quicker and then you make bank. You get full pay and bennies from day one (even in training). Your pay is deposited in HSBC acct in HKG (blog on this on FH). They report but do not deduct US taxes. HKG pay will be going up soon. **Most of their guys commute and it's allowed for, but you only get ID90s/95s--no jumpseat (this INCLUDES CX--you have to pay to ride on your own plane I guess). An interesting tidbit: as its obvious from the FH posts that alot of folks are bailing, the best schedule they could show us had about 4/20ish pilots "resigning" mid month :confused:.
COCKTAIL PARTY: I got the feeling this thing had been toned down over the years. Old posts mentioned all sorts of pilots and managers present but all we had were the same HR dudes and Sim guys we were hanging around all day. This is where the group of Aussies that just finished up mentioned their rather clubby final interviews. Just don't get too drunk or loud (the bar is pretty empty so really, be careful).

DAY2: SIMULATOR: I'm sure you know and I'm tellin you again: PAY FOR SOME SIM PREP! (esp. if you are a glass kinda pilot). I fly steam guages and I'd've been a bag-o-dicks without it. This should be the 1 thing you don't have to study for if you do the prep (though I could never seem to master the bugs--my plane only has 2). The overall key is keeping the attitudes/pwr settings they give you in the brief and make SMALL changes when on the ILS. Also, when you go visual, STAY on the ILS and perform the flare technique from the brief they give--don't try to seat-of the pants it unless u fly 747s/C5s already. One thing I got from prep that they don't tell you about is the "virtual runway" in the ADI--its key to staying on the LOC. Also (they mentioned this)--use the Mach readout as a "trend guage"--like you would the VSI in a climb or decent, to fine tune your speed. For sim prep I highly recommend Graham Aschenbrenner at Emerald Coast. One more thing that ticked me off: I felt rushed through the whole damn sim--not sure whether this was a test but I couldn't really exercise CRM or some of my checklists because they were always met with a "yes..we've already done that" (even though the dope let me do the first TO w/o any flaps b/c he forgot to put them in:=). On the 3 engine, after I handled the EP and (attempted to) briefed the approach we were damn there at GS intercept on the unfreeze. Not sure if these guys knew what they were doing or if they were deliberately trying to @#$% me.
FINAL INTERVIEW: This is where I knew I blew it--all that work for nothing if they ask you stuff you never heard of or shouldn't even know. HR: How many pilots do we currently employ? What routes do the US freighters take to HKG (not just GC...the exact route :ugh:)? What equiptment on those routes? How much money did the company make last year? Those were the toughies, the rest was per any other post on here but I'm sure they'll find the one thing you couldn't find to quiz you on--they're clairevoyant or something. TECH:This wasn't too bad, just like the first interview but a longgg discussion on AoA in a climb and what limits us finally (steered me away from "coffin corner" or Mcrit discussions, kept it pretty basic---answer-Thrust due decr air density). Hurricanes/Typhoons. FINALLY, flying history and such.
MEDICAL: Nothing to worry about here other than getting nekkid and coughing. I had worried about my cholesterol as I'm a bit of a biggun and its getting up there but they admitted the blood test is only for HIV. They do do some weird non-US tests though--if you have ANYTHING wrong with your eyes they will find out. I was med down for a couple weeks a couple summers ago for a sports injury and they didn't care to see any paperwork (which is good b/c I didn't bring any). I suppose if you had anything major you might want to bring some documentation along.

Well, thats it, Good luck (you're going to need it!) and remember that CX isn't the only 5 star airline that will hire us "colonial" chukaluks. I'm looking into Hong Kong Express among others as I truly did enjoy Hong Kong.

Oh, my background (so that ye may pass judgements): Mostly military/instructor, 32yo, 2900TT nearly all turbine, 1200 large turboprop, 1400PIC, 737type (but thats it for jet), recent pt 135 time (since the military). There IS alot of discussion about "realistic" mins: they say it straight up: "experience commensurate with age"--if you're 45 with my time then you might be screwed but as you could only work for them for another 10 years anyways you ought to look elsewhere, in my humble opinion. Cheers!:ok:

[cessnaxdriver]

Thanks for the info. I have a interview on Jume 13th SFO and not to sure what I want to do. I heard they don't treat Americans to well during the interview. We will see. What did you study for the first interview?

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Cessnaxdriver

[Grivation]

I nearly choked on my weetbix when I saw "5 star airline" and "Hong Kong Express" in the same sentence. :confused:

[flybywifi]

Having read the post by 03Navy, I feel it would be useful to present the same scenario from a different perspective. I also interviewed during the same period, and my view differs.

As for my background, I fly for an airline and have about 3500 hours.

My total experience with the 2nd interview was very positive. Having read much of what has been posted on this site, I was naturally sceptical and probably quite biased already at the outset. Some of the posts on this site can scare anyone, and I know personally of three collegues who have turned down Cathay interviews based purely on what they've read here. For myself, I fail to be persuaded by a few individuals when the airline employs well over 2,100 pilots right now. I may still stand corrected, but the ones who cry the loudest don't always represent the group as a whole. Of all the "real-world" Catahy pilots I have met and spoken to, not one has ever come close to sharing the views expressed by certain individuals on this forum. Yes, I've been told that there are many things that could be improved, but such is the reality of any organization not sustained through unlimited government funding and immune to the powers of a free market.

TRIP OVER: M-class is what it is. Case closed. I got my drinks and fell asleep.
'
HOTEL: Novotel. Great hotel and great views. Good drinks in the bar and excellent train connections to downtown. I found the city fascinating, and spent a few days within the expat community in Central. My impression of the city improved with the visit, but I understand why Cathay places so much effort into making sure you're ready for it (or not.)

DAY 1: Arrived at the F/C recruitment early. We all pretty much were. We sat in the lounge making assumptions about each other and thereafter called in to an initial briefing and the collection of copies from personal documents such as log-books, licenses, passports etc. Most of this was for the HKCAA / Chinese Immigration Authorities. This briefing did put us more at ease, and welcomes us to the "cities." (Both HK and Cathay)

Thereafter we went seperately through the different aspects of the selection process, which included:

SIMULATOR BRIEFING: Excellent briefing on what they were looking for and what they expected. Flying pitch / power is the same no matter what your experience, and won't cause problems as long as your basic scan is locked 95% of the time to the attitude indicator. If you're still chasing airspeed or headings, you're not ready for this. If your departure profile looks like an S, you're in trouble. We were provided with all the required pitch and power settings; stick to those and you'll be fine. The whole exercise seems to assess whether you're able to handfly pre-defined pitch and power settings. Whether you fly glass or analogue really makes no difference; your basic instrument skills will quickly be obvious to the instructor(s). In my humble opinion, the best way to prepare for this is to rent an old basic insturment trainer and repeat the basic pitch/power maneuvers. If you need to.

GROUP EXERCISE: It doesn't matter what the assignment is, and it doesn't matter what conclusion you reach. It's the process and your involvement in it that matters. I knew nothing of the exercise ahead of time, and participated at the same level I do in most other real-life sitations. Listen to others, and contribute what you feel you should. We were all in the same boat.

MATH/PSYCH QUIZ: The math quiz felt like it increased exponentially in difficulty. In my opinion it is not designed to be fully completed by a normally functioning brain. Ace it and you're out (go get a real job). Panic and you're out(some of the questions are probably impossible; at least they seemed so to me.). The psych quiz was a standard personality profiling questionaire, as used by any large corporation and maps out certain aspects of your personality. Lie and the time-pressure will expose you. Manage your time poorly and your final 60 answers will get you locked up for life.

BRIEFING: Excellent run-through of the flying position and career possibilities at Cathay. Very relaxed, and an atmosphere created where I felt safe to ask questions about anything. At least to me, the meeting in that room seemed confidential and had only one aim: to accurately present the life you're about to enter and give you the option of saying "this is not for me." The brief included both positive and negative aspects of working for Cathay, and concrete examples were given from both camps. Served as a great motivator, and made the wait for the final
results cruel.

COCKTAIL PARTY: A social gathering where we stood around in suits and nametags while we had a few beers. Very relaxed, and as much conversation off-topic as on. Lasted for a few hours.

SIMULATOR: I've never flown anything close to a 747. And I never' purchased a minute of sim-time in preparation. But I memorized the profiles and callouts from the moment I first recieved my "package." I printed out the 747 flight instruments from airliners.net, and mentally flew the profile again and again while looking at the picture. I mentally flew the profile at least once a day leading up to the simulator check. (It takes 5 minutes, but slowly the brain starts to learn and remember; even mine.) In the simulator, I "locked" the pitch like my life dependet on it, set the power settings we were briefed, and held the wings level unless banking to a specific heading. The atmosphere was quite relaxed, and I must admit I rather enjoyed the entire experince. The sim check was obviously not a CRM check, nor an exercise designed to test your judgement, knowledge or assertiveness skills. Just basic pitch and power control, like the first couple of IFR training flights we've all done.

MEDICAL: Not much to say. There's not much one can do to prepare for this, so either I pass or I don't. But is was quite extensive.

FINAL INTERVIEW: Relaxed atmosphere with two interviewers. I didn't know any technical details of any of the aircraft operated by Cathay, which seemed logical to me. I don't fly any of them. I did, however, receive questions about my current type, which seems only fair. If I don't know the limitations, systems or recall items on my type, why should I expect them to think that I will on theirs? The technical questions revolved around basic ATPL theory, and seemed to dig for general reasoning and comprehension rather than specific detailed knowledge. I bought "Handling the Big Jets" in preparation, but was dissapointed as it comes nowhere close to the current (JAR-FCL) ATPL syllabus. So I ended up reviewing a friends ATPL performance / meteorology books. If you have a european ATPL, the Davies book is a waste of money. As is "Acing your technical exam", which gives superficial answers to questions which require much deeper explanations than those offered. I never considered purchasing the much-publicised "Capt X,Y and Z" book. As for the "personal" side of the interview, they seemed to go back to my initial interview and verify the answers. Some basic questions of Cathay's history and fleet, route structure and financial position. I answered these as best I could, based on Wikipedia, the Cathay website and
the Annual Stockholders Report.

I passed the interview, but the entire experience was worth the trip never-the-less.

Same interview, two perceptions.

[03Navy]

For the first interview its AERO(dynamics), Weather (theory stuff, not TAF/FA decoding or whatnot), AERO, Systems (mostly on stuff you've flown--but they have been known to toss in some random B747/A340 questions in there; oh, and did I mention AERO?

Highly reccommend the Capt XYZ book as "Cathay interview for dummies". If you want more in depth then you should check out AERO for Naval Aviators, Flying the big jets, and Acing the technical interview. One note: the Capt XYZ book contained all the info I needed for the limited 747 Q's that got asked. You should expect to take the 50Q tech quiz and the XYZ book's Q's are fairly dated, at least to the one I took in HKG (they skipped it at my first for some reason).

As far as Company specific stuff--know the fleet, financials, and have a good reason you want to go there (not just "b/c i want to move to HKG in a few years). In the first interview I really got the feeling that their questions were to get YOU talking about your experiences---they don't ask about them directly like SWA does (TMAATW Q's). That will break you out from the folks who are just pumping and dumping the above material and they can tell if thats what you've done.

You're dead right they have a double standard when it comes to Americans. We had 3, myself included, in the final interview and none of us got the job. Guess they really are desperate for Americans for their cargo operation :ugh: .

Good Luck though!

[03Navy]

Wish I got your interviewers......Congrats though.

[act700]

flybywifi...

...you said "package"!

[cessnaxdriver]

Thanks for the info!!! I really appreciate it, I hate lugging around 100 lbs of old engineering books.. I have the Naval aviators book and handling the big jets. I'll check out the Captain XYZ (luckily I have a Canadian wife and she has contacts up there) I guess we will see

Cheers,

Cessnaxdriver

[03Navy]

This is way out there but if you can get a CDN passport (thru your wife's citizenship) and claim you live there I'd wager a shiny nickel that it'd up your chances of getting on there.

I'd send you my XYZ book but I feel pretty guilty about plunking down the $$ for it w/o a return (still better than the $7k I wagered on SWA though). Selling it on ebay should give me some satisfaction though....

[cessnaxdriver]

Yep, thats way out there, Canada has long process to get a passport when you marry a Canadian. Similar to the one my wife had to go thru to get here. We have been married 4 years next week and she is still a canadian citizen. I told her if she came across from Mexico illegally, she would be able to have free health care, social security, and would be allowed to stay!!

I can't find that book anywhere, but i have my extended family out looking in the great white north.

Cheers,

Cessnaxdriver

[rjmore]

You should be able to find the XYZ book online somewhere. Those on ebay are usually gouging but you might get a good deal. I think the group that wrote it also sells it directly.

As for the interview, I think a lot might be the luck of the draw on interviewers. I'm an American and my interview was very pleasant. Lots of bs'ing and the usual questions. I did notice that two guys got a fairly hostile interview though. I will say that both of them had some minor meltdowns in the group exercise. For them I think that us why they had a more hostile process. The evaluators saw that their buttons could be pushed so they pushed them. One admitted he argued with the interviewer. Maybe it is not connected but both of them got visibly agitated and raised their voices when the group did not go in the direction they wanted, subsequently they had a confrontational interview.

I'm not implying that happened in your case Navy. Sounds like you might have drawn a tougher crowd. It stinks but we have all faced that one on a checkride etc. All you can do is your best and if they don't like it well that's their problem. Hopefully the right job is waiting for ya. SWA has been known to hire guys on the second try a lot. I went through something similar with another airline and I was crushed. Turns out it was the best thing that could have happened.

Of my group we had 11 Americans I think, but I did not keep touch with all of them. I know for sure 4 of us got hired. There may be more but I haven't spoken to some of them. For me it was the nicest I have been treated in aviation. The paperwork is a killer and if you get hired you get to do it again plus some, but that is the way they do it so we get to play along.

Good luck to those going. Hope you get the group I had!

[wolferj]

try www.aviationworld.net

they are in Toronto.That's where i got mine.

Saluti