Jetstar 787 AWAs...Beware a Labor Govt

[Flying Tiger]

Interesting article on the front page of today's (17/5) Australian. Some selective quotes:

"Labor is aware the Senate will remain in Coalition hands until at least June 30 next year, and this would provide a window for businesses to increase coverage of AWA's for some months after the election of a Rudd government...Labor wants to abolish all AWA's. But the Opposition Leader made it clear that Labour would produce a transitional document to cover the shift from John Howard's Work Choices regime...There is a renewed campaign within the Opposition to allow workers with less bargaining power than those in the mining sector to cancel their AWA's as soon as practicable after the election...The dual track policy is being designed to stop employers "ripping off" workers in the twighlight zone between the Coalition and Labor systems."

So what does this mean for pilots "headhunted" to kickstart the 787 operation if Labor is elected at the looming federal election. At best it means you may be able to stick with your AWA until the end of its term. At worst it means you could find your AWA rendered worthless after a stipulated cutoff date. Either way you would eventually revert to working under the Jetstar Certified Agreement. Goodbye AWA, heeelllloooo seniority, with not much sympathy from existing Jetstar pilots. By the middle of next year Jetstar will have around 500 crew. How to turn a 787 Captain into a 787 "Cruise FO" in one simple step.

Of course all of the above presupposes a Labor victory, and what are the odds of that???

Latest opinion polls have Labor 59% Coalition 41% on a two party preferred basis.

Hmmmm....

[MelbPilot85]

Can't win either way, I dislike both parties equally

[Reason]

You may dislike both parties, but the important factor is your life and working conditions are at stake! AWAs or EBAs? I know which side of the fence I stand. Bye bye Johnny! I'll give you the royal salute.

[Angle of Attack]

Umm its called Tough, if thats gonna be the law then so be it, whats the problem? Any person accdepting AWA's these does does at their own risk they are'nt going to last. Just look at all the industry groups bleating like lost sheep, its gold, pure gold at the moment, its obviously not in their interests. 5% of workers are on AWA's, its not gonna make a difference after all "Workchoices" (sorry thats banned now cause its a public relations disaster) has only been in a year.

If great Economic management means that I cannot afford a new house, my kids are burdoned with ten's of thousands of dollars of debt after going to uni, half the money going to hospitals is not reaching the coal face, while big business and CEO's are in record territory with ridiculous wages, then... mate.. change bring it on, if this is the high time imagine the low time.... These companies such as JEtstar are just trying to milk a golden cow which is the government, but fortunately at last it seems the publics milk has run dry just like the water situation! :E

[Howard Hughes]

I thought the Labour party after all their scare mongering, have said that some AWA's will stay! A safe bet would be that as well as the mining sector, AWA's will stay in aviation also...:hmm:

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

I'm not completely au fait with the oppositions continually changing IR policy, but will they have some sort of " neutral umpire "? Like the IRC that will have some teeth? If so that's one way to deal with any future conflict of AWA's vs EBA's. If not then we'll have to wait around for the worm to turn.

[drshmoo]

Remember with EBAs you have collected bargaining. AWAs will be ok in times of high demand - like now but when they (management) have the power, AWAs will drop conditions through the floor. With an EBA you have the strength of the collective to maintain good conditions (provided you start with good conditions) throught the troughs and peaks
Shmoo

[dijon moutard]

The day pollies accept an AWA for their T &C will be the day i also sign-up for a AWA.

on the perth tarmac their are lot's of AWA's that pay "poverty-pack" rates-of-pay with other crap conditions that go with it.

i will take my EBA over any AWA on offer at moment ; my company/employer makes a profit and treat's staff with a level of respect that is quiet refreshing in the current aviation environment !

cheers
dijon moutard :ok:

[Bolty McBolt]

So what does this mean for pilots "headhunted" to kickstart the 787 operation if Labor is elected at the looming federal election. At best it means you may be able to stick with your AWA until the end of its term. At worst it means you could find your AWA rendered worthless after a stipulated cutoff date. Either way you would eventually revert to working under the Jetstar Certified Agreement. Goodbye AWA, heeelllloooo seniority, with not much sympathy from existing Jetstar pilots. By the middle of next year Jetstar will have around 500 crew. How to turn a 787 Captain into a 787 "Cruise FO" in one simple step.


If you are on a AWA your employer can do what they like as long as the "basic conditions" of an award are met. Your example of a demotion could happen legally and easily with an individual AWA "for comercial reasons"
Unless you are part of a collective that stand together over T&Cs it does not matter which party is in controlof the Federal Govt.

[Centaurus]

If you watched the ABC TV "Bastard Boys" and observed the screaming union thugs at the gates of the docks then that is exactly what you will get if the Libs lose the election. Multiply that for every State and you can kiss goodbye to private enterprise. It will be back to union pilots flying union routes and new recruits won't get into an airline unless they join the union. A frightening thought indeed.

[speedbirdhouse]

mmmmm......

Those interested in how AWAs threaten to impact the lives or ordinary and not so ordinary Australians may be interested in this article from today's Australian.

Enjoy Centaurus.


http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/peterlalor/index.php/theaustralian/comments/work_choices_recipe_for_abuse/

[Keg]

You must be posting from la-la land Centaurus. I joined QF in January '95 and wasn't a member of any union- even the TWU which was the union responsible for my previous job- but happily joined AIPA when I had the chance. There was no compulsion, no hard sell, just laying out the facts. I wanted to be a part of something more than 'self interest' and still do.

[drshmoo]

Dear Centaurus. Not sure of your field but I'm sure you would stand a better chance of improving your conditions under a "collective agreement than an AWA. No one should be forced to join a union but especially in todays industrial climate, people need to be part of a collective that can be used as a tool of negotiation against employers that are notorious for feathering there own nest.

[max1]

Centaurus,
Time has moved on. It does happen. I don't think we'll ever go back to the days of the 70's with a highly unionised and rigid workforce.
People have grown up and realised that this just doesn't work, we are in a global environment and must compete.
John Howard trumpeted his ' Workchoices' would make Australia more PRODUCTIVE. To me, this means with the same number of people we will produce more. In practice what it has meant that companies have used the legislation to reduce costs ( T&C'S ) to make companies more PROFITABLE.
Management , those on performance bonus' etc, have then feathered their own nests. Some ways that they have met these benchmarks include, to delay maintenance, and building of critical infrastructure, and put off the hiring of new staff. This has been happening across Australia. Look at the health system, water resources, aviation infrastucture.
It has been the age of the mobile bean counter. Join a company, make sure you have a contract with defined, attainable hurdles and a golden parachute clause. You have 3-5 years and then you're out , keep the rot hidden and walk away. It is then somebody elses problem.
When the lack of long term planning becomes apparent it is the people who have spent their lives at the company/ authority/ department who will be asked to take the pain to clean up the mess, work the overtime, take redundancy , be sacked.
The people getting shafted by this have have had enough and this is why we will see a change of government. People are tired of hearing tails of woe from on high , that belts need to be tightened (maybe they do), that there is nothing in the kitty for them, whilst watching huge profits and excessive bonuses.
Most people in work , management included, just want to do a good job and get on in life. There are those personality types ,who are in the ascendancy now, who don't give a rats about others and feel that they are missing out if they aren't taking something away from others to put in their own pockets. Most of us grow out of that stage by the time we are 4-5 years old . Some never do.

[sumtingwong]

Max1

Faultless post:D

We no longer live in a society but an economy.

I hope this era of Johnny, especially post 2001 will be remembered as the biggest paradigm shift in Australian society. The have's and the have not's.

The who work in an economy (the vast majority of us) and those who sit back and benefit from it.

[jaded boiler]

Centaurus, best you go back to busying your inflatable piers akerman doll and leave this discussion to those whose numerical IQs are at least equal to their age in years and who have something vaguely sensible to say, there's a good chap.

[chimbu]

Top post Centaurus,
I agree with AWA’s and feel a return to the old collective bargaining system retrograde.
Of course CB was OK if you were in an industry in demand such as:
tanker drivers (remember them, the long petrol queues),
warfies (painters and dockers),
pilots (strike every Christmas),
Never mind the damage to the rest, never mind the future, grab what you can and shaft your neighbour.
Cases in point-
ACTU breeding ground for future ALP politicians.
AIPA, a useless chatting club breeding future QCC/2 management.
Combet and his socialists will drag us back to the confrontational style of workers v’s management system of the pre Howard era.
I’m waiting for Gillard to spin her way out of ‘bargaining fees for non-union members’.
If Kevni and the ALP get up….. curtains for Oz.
And BTW it would be nice if forum posters refrained from ‘ad-hominem’, maybe these days manners are optional.
Chimbu

[gassed budgie]

I think it was Kim Beazley Snr. who suggested that the Labor Party was once full of cream from the working class, but now it was full of the dregs from the middle class. How true. Once you look past Kevin Rudd and two or three others (Lindsay Tanner, Craig Emerson and Tony Burke for example) you hit a brick wall. Let me see, Jenny George, Simon Crean, George Campbell, Martin Ferguson (not forgetting Laurie of course ), Kim Carr, Jenny Macklin, need I go on?
I've said it before but it obviously needs repeating, the Labor party does and has not represented main stream Australia for some time. The Parliamentary party consists of union hacks, left leaning socialist trendy academics and Labor party appointees. That's about it.
And who are two of their new so-called star recruits ? Greg Combet and Bill Shorten. Another two hacks from the unions.:yuk:
And yet here on this thread we've got dipsticks like Boiler suggesting you vote Labor. What a goose! If anyone here needs their IQ recalibrated, I think I've found him (or possibly her).
Their climate change and IR policies are plainly unsustainable. If anyone has looked at the detail of the IR policy in particular, or what they've released of it, it becomes apparrent very quickly that it's the same old Labor party well and truly rooted back in the 1950's and 1960's.
Greg Combet knew about the IR policy, but not the shadow front bench. Nor did Rod eddington or for that matter, Kevin Rudd himself. It was aurthored by Gillard (who is now showing her true colors) and the ACTU.
And just something quickly on their education policy. The ALP wants to introduce trade subjects into High Schools. Remember the tech shools from the sixties and seventies and what happened to them ? They were got rid of by the state Labor government's because they thought it was elitist to discriminate between those who went to the tech schools and those who went to the High schools. And who has been responsible for the apalling dumbing down of the state based education systems ? Those same state Labor governments. Just look at the mess in Victoria and WA if you would like to see examples of just how pathetic the situation has become. Rudds education revolution ? No. He's just rebuilding and replacing what Labor had already ripped apart and torn down.
AWA's ? They don't even rate. There are much more important things to be worried about than AWA's if Labor wins the election.
You've got a few bright sparks but the rest of the party went out long ago. There's simply no depth to the party. As Keating said, all tip and no iceberg.

[Angle of Attack]

Yes, wow this is great you guys are just like the bunch of business councils attacking the Opposition! Fantastic, this has been the exact reason why Howard has been heading downwards, people are sick of the spin and at last realise that he is a liar and going down! haha!

If you think Howard is doing such a great job then why is it I can't afford a damn decent house these days? Why cant my kids go to Uni without thousands and thousands of dollards of HECS debt? Why is the hospital system in chaos? Why are Corporations rolling in ridiculous amounts of money relative to average incomes of workers? 18% interest rates? Who cares? At least it was affordable back then, Remember one thing with no Companies the world would indeed be in chaos... but with no one working we all die, pure and simple.

THink about it

We need a vision not some dumb arse looking to the next election anyway I respect your views even though Howard will lose. I already am stocking the fridge :ok:

[What The]

And from the Liberals we get "The Labor Party sucks (after we evaluate their policy)".

And whatever you do, don't mention the war (WORKCHOICES). I think I mentioned it once, but I got away with it. (Basil Fawlty)

[gassed budgie]

If you think Howard is doing such a great job then why is it I can't afford a damn decent house these days?

No government is perfect and the Howard government is no exception. But when you look at the one man band on the other side of the chamber it is a little bit worrying.
Affordable housing ? Having just completed and sold a relatively small subdivision it is mind boggling the amount of rules and regs that have to be complied with at every stage through the development. These are foisted upon us by the fools at the local government level and by the oxygen bandits who occupy the state government offices.
The Vic state government introduced a development levy recently and then I heard that idoit Bracks suggest that the developers would absorb the cost. Pigs f:mad:n arse they will. You get to pay that!
All this needless (most of the time) bureaucracy comes at a cost of tens of thousands of dollars to the consumer. It's a disgrace.
And before people whinge about how things are less affordable these days, maybe they should take a look at how responsible they've been with their own finances and stop blaming someone else (the government in this instance) for their own financial mismanagement.


But I get the feeling there is now a definite majority looking for some ideas that weren't formed in the 1950's


Well you won't find them at the ALP. Their current IR policy is almost a word for word ripoff from the ACTU's IR Policy for Dummy's 1953 edition.
Kevin Rudd is spending that much time trying to sound like the PM, remember Rudd he's just told us he's a fiscal conservative, why would you bother changing?

[1DC]

Looking in from the outside,as someone who has a great affection for Oz, I see three things associated with this thead.

a) Mr. Rudd is following the same tack/spin as Tony Blair did to the Brits to try and get elected in the UK. I don't have to tell you what a mess Tone made of the country after he gained power....
b)Why do the feds get all the blame when Labour run the States??
c)Why do the Aussies still have this great fixation with the unions, they must be the last country in the world who still feel this way??

[jaded boiler]

Of course the federal lib/nats represent a truly broad spectrum of society. How many solicitors/farmers are counted amongst their ranks?

Maybe I should rethink my politics, as if jh is tossed out, amongst other calamaties, it will be the end of private enterprise in this country; there goes my retirement income.

I guess I should not be surprised with some of the contemptible, fact-distorting bilge posted here; poke a stick into a nest of crypto-fascist buffoons and it's a no-brainer as to what will come out.

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Great thread going down here people, left, right, left right. You're all forgetting the major issue here, it's all about me. Chimbu got it right, or is that left, when he spoke of how I shouldn't and don't care about anyone else but myself. Welcome to our brave new world people, where I'm owed everything. Be that no taxes on my shares and multi national business or child support for my 8 kids with 4 different fathers. I should be able to pollute the world for my grandkids coz I've hired a scientist who says it's a myth, bugger erring on the side of safety it's only the earth. This global warming stuff gets in the way of profits.

The whole social responsibility thing is for those chardonnay drinkers. Hell they put themselves in that position so they should wear it. We should take care of everyone who can't be bothered working or just sit around on drugs. When they come inside my house stealing my stuff, well that's just modern economics at work. Part of the price for globalisation. That and nice big jails.

It's all about me, I worked my AWA so I got more than the other people I work with coz I gave away a few things like holidays and stuff. If I didn't they were going to hire someone else and I need the work, plus I'm getting an upgrade. The mob all wanted to stand together but that removes my independence and they offered me some more money if I signed. Now the rest of the mob are signing but the last couple got a bad AWA but hey they should have signed early and not caused all that trouble. The new people have a different one but if they don't like they should leave, bugger the mortgage and kids.

Yeah it's all about me. Labor or Liberal I just want the best deal for me now. Sorry for my sarcasm and stereotypes I just got up.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Labor should have won last time but the electorate got scared off by Latham. People want a change. They know that Howard lies, they know that Rudd probably will lie as well.

The IR laws are a factor, maybe not the clincher but a big factor nonetheless. People also realise that the main reason the economy is booming has little to do with economic policies and everything to do with the behemoth to our north. So I sense poeple are willing to go for a change with the knowledge that if Labor stuffs it up, the economy is still pretty bomb-proof for a while and they can always vote them back out again.

There is also a festering low-level anger about Iraq, David Hicks and the constant spin. Unless Rudd cocks it up badly in the next few months, my money is on him being the next PM